What controversy? over sodium percarbonate?

There have been many posts recently that possibly Sodium Percarbonate is useless, or it needs certain P&G trademarked "activators" to work.

I also meant maybe I should just use Miele UltraWhite and Hot water. I did not mean UltraColor. Although I like UltraColor a lot too :) Just not for whites!

Thanks Larsi, I did find that thread that talked about the "activators". Interesting. Certainly makes dosing easier not to add the sodium percarbonate.

Larsi, pure sodium percarbonate isn't really useless, its hard for me to explain its complexity, over on AW Launderess, just made another statement about it.

Are there better options for whitening, yes. For one Tide Bleach and Persil for whites which have an activated bleaching system to ensure the oxy is working fast and at cooler temps than the pure would require, also Chlorine Bleach would whiten better. Pure sodium percarbonate will give acceptable results if used in hot water with extended exposure, like my soaks. Yes it breaks down into sodium carbonate in the wash, however much less than say oxyclean. Which just to mention oxyclean is sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate and does not have a activator. Tide Bleach pods would have the activator. Try it Larsi, see what you think since you already have it. However its best if used in hot water with extended wash, which is what I've advised all along. Since your whites are already white, I doubt you will notice a huge difference lol.

I hope you know I did not steer anyone the wrong way with my tooting the horn about sodium percarbonate. I still say IMO its a fine product if used the correct way and a decent alternative to oxycleans large amount of washing soda. If you don't get acceptable results Larsi I would be more than happy to buy it from you and pay the postage.XOXO

@ MamaPinky....If I do not like it, or do not notice any real magic from it....I ordered it on my doing. Yes, you recommend it, but you have great results and like it a lot. I Love Tide he powder (the old stuff). Some others do not like or love it. This is what makes it fun.

If I end up not loving it, I will mail to to you. And I will not accept a dime for shipping or the sodium P!! XO

Luv ya Lars

If I am using Ariel from mexico, do I need to add anything to it or does it have all the boosters, water softeners and such that it needs?

Jody, don't add anything to it. It already has the best as far as water softener goes..unless you want to use a bleaching product for whites.

Ok, thanks

Larsi, what is your verdict on the sodium percarbonate? I've read several threads about this product. I also went to automatic washer site and read there too. It is confusing to say the least.

Sounds like hot water is a must. So would be useful in white washes using hot water.

According to wikipedia:

As an oxidizing agent, sodium percarbonate is an ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products, including non-chlorine bleach products such as OxiClean, Tide laundry detergent,[1] and Vanish.[6] Dissolved in water, it yields a mixture of hydrogen peroxide (which eventually decomposes to water and oxygen) and sodium carbonate ("soda ash").[1]

Ill say the sodium percarbonate in Tide and Persil have activators..I don't believe any others do..enduring, pure sodium percarbonate doesn't have an activator, so it requires heat and time to work its magic. I use it on whites if I'mnot using Tide with Bleach. I like to get the water up to 140 deg f..and do a long soak...brilliant whites. I have found lower water temps below 130 and normal wash times do not give me the best results. Its supposed to work at lower temps but time in solution needs to be longer.Larsi will be along I'm sure I just wanted to add my 2 cents. Rock is absolutly correct in what she says..but using the more pure form of sodium percarbonate breaks down into much less sodium carbonate, than what say oxiclean would..for me that's important since I mostly use powders, and even though I'm careful with rinsing somehow I will still have washing soda in my clothes lol. I know this stuff can be confusing.lol

I also wanted to add its good in wash water for about 6 hours after that it decomposes, which is why its not in liquid laundry detergent.

Thanks MamaPink, I read the post from September here, and on AW. Both were helpful, yet lead me to wonder if I made a mistake in ordering some for myself. I'd been wanting to for several years and finally made the plunge.

I never use tide, though I do have some older Tide on the shelf, because when I bought it for Larsi, I bought some for me. But I haven't used it yet. I really like Miele and the American Persil. I find the American Persil powder to have a beautiful light light scent. I always use STPP in my loads.

I have white towels that I use for all purposes. DH uses them daily for his "almost clean" {after washing} grimy hands. He gets a lot of stuff on them including engine oil, and just plan dirt. My towels are very white with my washing tech, though I've noticed that there might be a slight graying to the towels and thought that sodium percarbonate might be the answer. I always wash them in 158F in my FL meile. The high temp should help the SP, if I am understanding everything I've read correctly. On the other hand, I'm reading that if one uses a top of the line detergent, then maybe the SP isn't really needed.

So I was wondering how Larsi fared since he referenced the same discussion on GW, back in September, rather it works or not if already using TOL detergents.

Tide uses Sodium nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate (NOBS) in its detergents, while European laundry and dishwasher detergents use TAED, which is also linked in the Wiki entry. NOBS works in cooler water, which is important now that even Consumer Reports considers 75°F a warm water wash.

I am not a huge fan of Sodium Percarbonate, where I love Mama's recommendation for STPP (and Mitch's).

I find washing with hot water and using Miele UltraWhite or Tide with Bleach powder....I do not need the sodium percarbonate at all. Also, I could have imagined it...but it made my fabrics feel a little "rough". I always do 3 DEEP water rinses too.

When I used oxiclean it made my clothes rough and didn't do anything for me.

"Sodium Percarbonate" is actually basically just a solid form of hydrogen peroxide. The hydrogen peroxide is bound in the molecular crystal structure to sodium carbonate (also known as soda ash). Soda ash used to be commonly used to wash clothes.

You are right, hydrogen peroxide does need "activators" to work effectively.

Thanks Roco and Whirlpool. The Wiki reading was good to see.

So one activator would be heat, if I read the previous threads correctly... So I have SP on hand, and I will use it to see how it works on my whites, in very hot water.

I believe I can use it outside to help with mossy growth on the siding, North side of the house.

Yes, hot water (140°F and above) activates it - which is why we used to boil our clothes in Per-Sil, while other countries used chlorine bleach.

Very true if your using Tide with Bleach or Persil Perls for whites those two already have SP and the activator for less than hot temps..I don't use my SP with those two detergents..but for all other detergents I do including Tide non bleach formulas. It will need hot water, I have excellent results, throw a non bleach detergent with it along with a healthy dose of STPP and WOW. Hope you have great results enduring

I wonder if instead of heating a whole tub of water up to 140*, if you could heat, say 2 or 3 qts. of water to boiling or near boiling, add the SP to activate it then add it to a wash tub of hot water. Of course that would be traditional TL w/o an onboard heater. You should be able to get the same results?

Great question Beagle.

I have searched a long time for the answer to Bea's question. .I just can't find the answer but its sure worth a try..

I am pretty sure that all modern detergents "with bleach" contain an activator of some sort. However, just like detergent, it probably will not work in tap cold water. All oxy bleaches are more active, the hotter the water. As water cools, I am sure that it starts to slow it's action down. Sodium Percarb. DOES require hot water to activate. Yes, it is basically dried hydrogen peroxide. It will also make your clothes very stiff if the dose is too high, and no amount of rinsing will help it. Sorry, Larsi. This is not scientific evidence, but based on my own experiences, and what I have come to learn from Laundress over at AW.org. I prefer to use detergents "with bleach" for every day use, and then add extra Percarb if I need to have extra stain removal (like dish towels or messy kid stains).

Thanks MamaP you are so kind to go to all that trouble.

Joel H., Thanks for clearing it up for me. I think I will just rely on LCB for towels and just hot water and a good detergent for my sheets.

Thanks Joel H. I too found the sodium percarbonate to make my fabrics feel rough, and I did 3 DEEP water rinses.

I have found just using Miele UltraWhite powder or Tide with Bleach powder and hot water (140F or higher)...and my whites are dazzling white! No bleach, No extra oxi powder.

Tide with Bleach AND sodium percarbonate make my clothes feel rough! I am still in the experimental phase, but Ariel and Ace (WITH phosphates) clean my clothes without the need for additives...my sheets come out pretty soft. Joel, do you use a FS when you use Tide w/ bleach?

Sodium percarbonate in the form of oxiclean for instance is loaded with 50%+ in washing soda, the 99% pure sodium percarbonate had 1% washing soda, its the washing soda, if over used that can make clothes stiff. Pure SP will decompose to WS, but a lot less than lets say oxiwash..

P&G and Henkel have exclusive rights to their activators, and as far as I'm aware they don't share them. Tide with Bleach and Persil Pearls have those activators, which will enable the Sodium percarbonate to activate at less than hot temps.

Other detergents or boosters like A&H powder with oxi or Oxiwash booster do not have activators, that I'm aware of.

Pure Sodium percarbonate does need hot water to activate, 120deg f and above if you expect to whiten those whites.

There's no reason to add sodium percarbonate to Tide/bleach or Persil perls, its already in them along with the activator.

As far as Launderess refering to stiff clothes with sodium percarbonate, I believe she was refering to oxiwash and all the washing soda in it. Which is why when she needs it she uses pure sodium percarbonate, she has councelled many times that its a much better choice to use pure SP rather than oxiwash or other like offerings that are loaded in washing soda.

That being said, we all have different water chems and other things that can factor into it..some people have wonderful luck with this or that some don't..how boring our little world would be if we all used and liked the same products lol

I will say though. IMO...if clothes feel rough, dry, stiff, scratchy its probably do to some sort of residue.

I don't know if there is a different "legal situation" in the US, but over here pretty much all powders for whites (Henkel, Procter, eco brands like Ecover or cheap store brands) use the same activator: TAED.

ALex.I'm behind the times..yes, Henkel did let the patent on their activator TAED expire...so anyone can use it...but P&G uses NOBS and they still have the lock down on it.

Does anyone know if any US brand detergent is using TAED??

Alex..Thank You..I really didn't know Henkel let that patent go. Good info to have.

We only have ONE Tide for HE here in Canada. Miele UltraWhite is my favorite for whites. I occasionally add Resolve for scary loads like my 13 year olds socks. I do have the Laundress SP but it's scented so I use occasionally with sheets for more scent. Not sure if it does much whitening. I'll use it up but likely won't replace it.

Iivebetter..I'm sorry I wasn't refering to Launderess detergent. .but an actual person...lol

elcamino83--I very rarely use FS on any laundry, I just do not care for it. Only loads that are all synthetic do I add a minimal amount, just to cut static. I do line dry all the time, and I can definitely tell when laundry is not well rinsed. They are much stiffer. Mamapinky, yes washing soda will cause laundry to be very stiff. Laundress did state this, but in much older posts ( I have been an AW member for at least 12 years) I am sure she concluded that most overly "percarbonated" laundry dried with a stiffer finish, rather it was the Oxyclean version or the pure version. If she did not, then I will stand corrected. The subject of Oxyclean, percarbonates, and with bleach products has been discussed many, many times. I definitely prefer it over chlorine bleach, for most applications. I never buy Oxyclean, personally. I would rather have the pure and real stuff, and not pay for fillers that make my clothes and disposition stiff. ;)

We agree on that Joel,..I just can't force myself to buy oxiwash, when there's more filler than main product.

I also prefer pure sodium percarbonate over Chlorine Bleach, even though LCB whitens better, it also has a set of strict laws in using it or your clothes could be in trouble, however there are times I reach for the stuff. I think it would be helpful if Clorox and other companies were more spacific on the proper use of LCB, there's a lot of people out there that just dump it in with their detergent. I watched my ex- daughter in law do this, seriously poured about 2 cups in at the start of the wash and only did one rinse lol..ya she was always complaining clothes were what she called...dry rot.

I haven't read of and controversy over sodium percarbonate. My results have been the greatest of my laundry life. I add two tablespoons of the powder to a pot of nearly boiling water on the stove, and then turn off the heat. When it's dissolved, I add it, along with more hot tap water, to fill my container of soaking whites. For about two hours, I soak them, giving them a swish and a tumble with a wooden spoon every half hour or so. When two hours are up, I add the whole shebang to the rest of my unsoaked white load in my machine. Everything comes out sparkling white, with no damage to the elastic in socks and underwear. I recently tried soaking my whites in Biz, after reading that it was superior to SP. It didn't whiten nearly as well as sodium percarbonate does, and it left a weird fragrance that I couldn't get rid of by running them through another wash cycle. So glad to have sodium percarbonate in my laundry routine.

I agree that SP is better than Biz as long as you are using hot water and a top of the line detergent. I also have experienced the strong fragrance that Biz leaves behind, but I don’t think it is horrible. There are certainly worse odors on clothes I have experienced.

I cannot stand the perfume in liquid BIZ but the powder version is rather nice.

Yes. I was referring to the fragrance of liquid Biz. I've not found Biz in powder form where I live, or I'd give it a try. Smells are subjective. The smell of liquid Biz reminds me of a dirty diaper pail masked by a heavy, ineffective deodorizer. And I am not laundering anything that's heavily soiled or smelly, like diapers.

This generic chemical, sodium percarbonate, which is 50% of Oxiclean isn't useless. I've seen it work, but it doesn't always do that much. [Soda ash, Sodium carbonate is the other 50%. Which is very cheap for laundry.] A little of the perc. is in Tide, but for some reason they aren't really anxious to tell us that! (Why?)

In water it releases hydrogen peroxide. My laundra-mat lady says to put in a people of h. peroxide to a load if needed. Prices are all over the place on this pure chemical which is still far cheaper that the original. Generics at Dollar General, etc. Google and be surprised!

I'm going to look into the high percent H. peroxide sold in beauty salon supply stores which i'm sure will be very harsh if not carefully diluted before hand.

All of these do a non-chorine bleaching--Even bleaching only sterilizes, not really cleans--but Even bleach will safely whiten just about anything that has yellowed EXCEPT WOOL!

Without danger in normal laundry...Ask an attendant for BETTER advice! [I have a special project in mind for it.]

In case there is still confusion about the efficacy of sodium percarbonate…it is a soldified form of hydrogen peroxide. As others have mentioned, when it is added to water it eventually deteriorates into Oxygen, water, and sodium carbonate (think super washing soda). When it is in the form of product like oxyclean original, it is buffered with extra sodium carbonate, but it is still approximately 65% sodium percarbonate which means that there is the equivalent of around 35% potentiLpotential hydrogen peroxide total in the container. In any temperature of water, the benefit is two fold for this product. The washing soda acts as a water softener, and the peroxide is a gentle whitening agent safe for colors. Hot water of course intensifies the effects of the peroxide as heat alone can accelerate the chemical reaction of the peroxide intensifying the whitening as well. peroxide is a type of oxidizer used to bleach things like textiles, or wood. It is what we use as a “developer” when we lighten/bleach or color hair. In that case the peroxide (with some micellaneous ingredients for stabilizing) is the ”activator” so to speak. Peroxide can also be a powerful antimicrobial, and even at concentrations as low as .5% it can kill pretty much every microbe in vitro. At just a 1% strength it has proven to do the same in actual practice, and unlike sodium hypochlorite(traditional bleach), quats, etc…the h2o2 kills these organisms regardless of whether the surfaces were cleaned prior, and reauired no rinsing after. One reason to add an activator is to speed up the deterioration of the H2O2 into oxygen and water. This is what is happening when the peroxide engages with any biologocal material. So the actovation is inevitable, but not necessarily consistent in timing. So if you want the percarbonate to become peroxide in the laundry liquor, but not degrade completely prior to doing its job. If that job is to whiten and stain lift then cool, it probbaly will not require any longer than normal wash duration. If what you want is whitening, stain lifting AND sanitizing all with cold or water, then you need an activator. Before the demonization of phosphates, trisodium phosphate was a common one. Now we tend to see EDTA moreso. Both are sequestrants or non precipitating water conditioners that chelate and remove metals from hard water. STPP is an excellent stain remover/whitening agent in its own right too. oxyclean sanitizer utilizes the sodium percarbonate with the EDTA to effectively sanitize your laundry after a 15 minute soak in cool water. If you add hot water you may notice more of an oxidizing effect where metal buttons will interact bleaching the color from the material in its direct vicinity. I can say pretty confidently that all percarbonate or perborate containing ”oxy” products will likely kill pathogens with a soak in warm water for 30 minutes. Companies must prove this is the case for their products in normal user & environmentally friendly conditions specifically to achieve the sanitizing labeling, and cold is preferred by most people curently. Not me. I still prefer warm or hot wash depending. For the same reason i dont generally run my dishwasher with cool water. I also prefer Biz over oxyclean or plain sodoum percarb cause the addition of the celulase enzyme seems to go a long way in getting rid of pilling, and restoring the softness of the fabric. Persil also contains that, and other protease enzymes.

Paragraphs make for easier reading ... :-)