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shemmy98

Shade Lawn Advice

shemmy98
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago

So here is a picture of part of our back yard. Located Southeaster PA

Everything from the garage to the 2 trees and back is about a year old, fill dirt/topsoil (at least several inches of topsoil in most places) and seeded last September. The area in the immediate foreground has topsoil added and seeded in the spring to control runoff (which is why it is the lighter color). This picture was taken in June.

The two issues are that the growth is very thin (from this angle it's deceptive) and the roots are extremely shallow.

This picture was taken in July after our fence was put in. (The garage is directly behind my right shoulder). An additional problem this portion of the lawn has is that is stays VERY moist.

This area is where my problems come to roost. The roots being so shallow allow the grass to be ripped out easily (the post hole machine for the fence left some great compacted skid marks) and the thinness combined with the slope serve to have any exposed soil crust over. I've tried to over seed and cover with peat moss, but even after sprouting the seedlings get washed downhill by anything more than a drizzle (or get uprooted by what feels like a strong breeze).

I've personally put down mostly Scott's Dense Shade and Sun and Shade mix. The landscapers seed doesn't seem to have even taken since areas I seeded myself with those look like areas where it had both my seed and theirs. I've now done my research on seed and am planning on ordering the next batch of what I put down.

I was planning in September on renting an over seeder and putting down a high quality mix of Creeping Red and Chewings Fescue along with a portion of Sabre III. Any ryegrass seems to sprout and then subsequently die from the shade so I'm cutting that out this time.

After reading various posts on the over seeders usually rented (actually just verticutters with add on drop spreaders), I was planning on spreading the seed and then slicing (two directions).

Am I aiming in the right direction? My knowledge base has increased the last month or so, but I feel like I now have too much to sift through. I feel like I've wasted enough money on seed, soil, fertilizer, peat moss, etc. and want to try to limit that going forward.

Thanks in advance for any advice. If you need me to give additional information please let me know.

Comments (39)

  • dchall_san_antonio
    8 years ago

    The soil should not be moist. I know you've had a lot of rain, but are you also watering it? If so how frequently and for how long?

    How high/low are you mowing?

    When were the last two times you fertilized and what did you use?

    Is that a pile of rocks at the end of your driveway? What's that for?

    Why did you bring in more soil?

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    When I say moist, I refer to the soil staying moist longer than other areas of the lawn (i.e. if it rains today, upper portion dry the next day, lower portion still might be drying). I'm guessing since the lawn slopes down to that point, before leveling off slightly, then falls off into the woods, that more moisture is making it to that point (and staying there). Hence the thinking for using Sabre III as opposed to Poa Supina. Some isolated spots stayed actually "squishy" last fall, but I believe that's because the landscaper didn't do a good job compacting the underlying layers or of keeping the slope even towards the lower end of the project. My watering habits last fall were consistent, but not good. I was watering much too shallow. 10 minutes twice a day. But even altering it to less frequent growth hasn't filled in. Also, attempting to water "deeper" doesn't work on that back section because it runs down the slope and then settles where it levels off. One section gets too much, the other gets too little. If the lawn grows in thicker this won't be as much of an issue, but with it so thin the water just runs off. 10 minute watering seems to be the limit currently back there and not cause some areas to become swampy.

    I had been mowing at the middle setting on my mower, but I plan to go up to higher settings in the future (my knowledge base for shade grass was VERY limited up until a month ago). I stayed in the middle, because I felt if I went lower it scalped the grass too much, or if higher the grass had a tendency to lay over with even a little bit of rain.

    I fertilized in mid May and then again in July when I did some seed and peat moss.

    Our garage is detached and behind our house (which is a Ranch with a walk out basement). The rocks are the cover of a french drain, the pipe for which is buried down the left side of the yard and daylights past the fence. Even in heavy rains the water filters through and does not over run into (and down the yard).

    The entire area behind the garage had been wooded, and we lost several trees in Sandy. We decided to try to gain more usable space and had fill brought in. To give an example of what the slope was, the trees growing below the fence are about 4 feet below.

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  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    So can anyone tell me I'm on the right track?

  • danielj_2009
    8 years ago

    For anyone serious about getting the lawn in shape, a soil test is always a good idea. I'm sure you've come across discussion of Logan Labs. If you haven't done that, it is really helpful to figure out which direction you should go. Also, you can do a jar soil test while you're taking your samples for Logan. Just post your results here and lawn whisperer morpheus will read the tea leaves for you.

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    So, working 14 hour days this week hasn't let me do a soil test yet, but that will be done this weekend.

    I know in the near future I should be putting down any new seed I want to try to grow before the winter. Question is how do I account for any of the thunder storms predicted this coming week. The one section of slope really hasn't held on to soil/seed very well during heavy rain. I was wondering if the seed blankets sold at HD/Lowes are even worth trying. I can't find a place to purchase the plastic/Dupont variety.

    Or should I wait until after Labor Day, when most likely any storms will be less heavy and not cause as much erosion?

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    " It's a little better for the grass if you go now, but that's not going to help if we get torrential rains."

    That's what I'm worried about, but I also know the longer I wait the more likely I get lower seed germination. Mother nature has screwed me plenty this summer by being dry for a week, and then dropping an inch of rain in 15 minutes. The one storm filled the dogs' outdoor water bowl (1' diameter) in about 20 minutes.

    Will using the slit seeder (I guess I should say verticutter since that is what HD actually rents) help the seeds get more soil contact and stay put? Rolling after as well? or does that defeat the purpose of the slicing? What about 1/8-1/4 inch of peat moss on top? The area with the slope I'm worried about is about 1,000 s/f, so that is still a lot of burlap.

    I plan on renting the unit for the front lawn (which is way past the need of physical dethatching and aerating) anyway, so I'll have it for the back yard if you think it would help.

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I finally made it home before sundown to take a closer picture of the thin growth.

  • danielj_2009
    8 years ago

    You might consider reading up a little more in this forum before detaching or aerating anything.

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    My head is spinning from reading so many things. And my front and back lawns are two TOTALLY different situations.


    Prior to the last month or so the only things I had read about lawns were found on the bags of things I was buying at HD. That means my front lawn (not the back since most of the soil back there didn't exist the previous 8 years) has a heavy layer of thatch, is a hodgepodge of grass types as things have been killed and patched (nimblewill was previously controlled by RU and new soil/seed), and is an absolute rock. The main grass type is some wide leaf fescue that probably was planted when the house was built in 1979. All the new stuff added is mostly fine blade (again not entirely sure since the "mixes" always have a ton of different kinds). Overseeding with out promoting soil contact would be pointless, so I'm going to give the front lawn a good kick mechanically. Maybe I'll have to kill it off and start fresh, but I'd rather try this first before spending the money on that.

    The only reason I might use a mechanical method in the back is that the slope has made most of the exposed soil fairly crusty, and the seed will most likely wash away (and has previously) with out some sort of soil disruption to promote contact.

  • User
    8 years ago

    >>The only reason I might use a mechanical method in the back is that the slope has made most of the exposed soil fairly crusty, and the seed will most likely wash away (and has previously) with out some sort of soil disruption to promote contact.

    If you feel you must, slit seed the back perpendicular to the direction of the runoff. Doing it parallel or in both directions will encourage runoff, erosion, and seed loss.

    Going deeper than a slit seeder will disturb (about 1/4" on average) is simply asking for trouble and you're gong to pay for it later. And you're going to pay for it with more erosion, poorer establishment of the grasses over time, and a lot of frustration.

    Topdressing with a heavier material that won't erode so easily, such as compost, will help out here. Up to a quarter inch atop the seed will help hold it in place. Burlap is another option, but has to be tacked down and removed once the seed is sprouting.

  • danielj_2009
    8 years ago

    About thatch and aerating: I'm just saying that there are some constants in this forum. One is that EVERYBODY thinks they have a clay soil, and NOBODY (except morpheus) actually does. Another is that everybody thinks they have thatch, and few if any actually do. A third is that everybody wants to mechanically aerate the soil because the ground is hard. Most here believe that aerating is not only unnecessary, but that it causes problems.

    Thatch is something very specific. It isn't just dead grass and leaves matting the ground. Hard ground isn't usually a mechanical problem. It is usually more due to low organic content or high levels of the wrong minerals (often magnesium).

    If your plan is to scalp and redo the front lawn, then you do need to get rid of the bulk of the dead matter on the ground. In my case, the act of scalping also removes all that stuff. The point being not to throw around the term "thatch" too loosely.

    Full disclosure, most of what I've learned in 2 seasons here is "book learning." I'm beginning to get some actual experience under my belt from working on my lawn, so take that into consideration. :)

  • User
    8 years ago

    >>One is that EVERYBODY thinks they have a clay soil, and NOBODY (except morpheus) actually does.

    Even Morpheus doesn't. :-) 40% clay, 60% silt is still a silt soil in my book, even if the soil triangle has it borderline at Silty Clay. I've seen a few, however. Clay is no barrier to a gorgeous lawn, great soil, and healthy gardens.


  • User
    8 years ago

    >>> "A third is that everybody wants to mechanically aerate the soil... it causes problems."

    I've long made it my mission to challenge this unsupported statement anytime it is repeated. First, what problems are you claiming? Second, can you link to a university turf program or golf superintendent's association study or statement supporting this claim? Can you link to any support?


    Thanks

  • danielj_2009
    8 years ago

    yard: regarding "problems" with aerating -- What I am claiming is what I've read online, and what also seems to make sense. The issue I had in mind was the spreading of weed seeds. My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that weed seeds can remain dormant for a very long time at core aerator depth. When you bring them to the surface, you run the risk of having an outbreak. I don't know whether there have been any official studies to determine whether dropping dormant weed seeds onto the surface of a lawn is recommended. Also, if you have a balanced soil, it also makes common sense that pulling large plugs and introducing any number of things into that hole might not be appreciated by the balanced ecosystem. Third, i have seen warnings that aerating could damage stolons. How much of a problem I don't know.

    The rest of my sentence said that core aeration is not necessary for "hard" soil. Since you skipped that and focused more on the problems that aeration can cause, can I presume that you agree that aerating a lawn because it is hard is, in most cases, unnecessary?

    I think this link will be very interesting to people who haven't seen it yet. I know you are familiar with it because you are a participant. I had to laugh because one of my three "constants" kept coming up in that discussion. Some guy invariably says, "I've got this really hard clay soil so I need to aerate it." That's two of the three in one sentence!

    Here's the bigger picture for me: People who come here (me 2 years ago) are completely, hopelessly clueless. It isn't that they don't have any information about lawn care, it's worse than that -- it's that the information they have is either a half-truth or is outright wrong (weed and feed products, feed in the spring...FEED IT!, etc.). The landscaper who installed my sod in October gave me a quote on lawn care should I need it. His schedule for the spring included dethatching and core aerating...on a lawn laid down 6 months ago? I asked about fall fertilization recommendations, and he said, "You can if you want to."

    So people say, "Hey aeration is the best thing since sliced bread. It saved my lawn!" OK, well maybe it did, but for how long? The bigger picture is that aeration shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. I'm a natural born skeptic and a chemical engineer (formerly). So when I came here and it occurred to me that many of the people with the best lawns have never core aerated, it made me think that aeration was just something to make money on, or something that might be useful in unusual circumstances (golf courses), or something that gives a boost to a sick lawn. I've asked quite a few detailed questions regarding soil chemistry, and I've satisfied myself that people here who act like experts really are experts. I can tell if a guy doesn't know the difference between a covalent bond and an ionic one, and is just fudging. I don't see that here. I guess the clincher for me on the subject of aeration came last fall. I was pulling a weed near a curb stone and a worm the size of a frigging garden snake came at me (OK, maybe the worm gets bigger every time I tell the story). That worm is just one of the ways nature aerates the lawn within the soil ecosystem. Why mess with that?

    My conclusion until presented with better evidence -- Your clay soil most certainly isn't clay, your thatch layer most certainly isn't thatch, and aerating your soil is at best a band-aid for bigger issues, and could cause more problems than it solves.

    Sorry to OP if I got too far off-topic, but I was asked a question after all!

  • User
    8 years ago

    >>covalent bond and an ionic one, and is just fudging

    Isn't it the difference between being a balanced person or an old salt?

    >>I was pulling a weed near a curb stone and a worm the size of a frigging garden snake came at me (OK, maybe the worm gets bigger every time I tell the story).

    I have those too, but mine are the size of Chinese dragons. Except they don't offer tea and conversation, which I find somewhat disappointing.

    But yes, meet Mr. Aerator, who, if your soil is extremely healthy, has 10 friends or more per cubic foot. All of them grab leaf and grass clipping organics from the surface and drag them down their holes to consume in peace. And then poo the remains up top. And they aren't very neat eaters.

  • User
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I'll try to be short as we've already hijacked the thread.

    This urban legend (something we "heard" on online or in the boys" room) about the "problems" with aeration might sound like common sense (it was proposed some years ago by some self appointed "lawn experts" based on their superior common sense skills) But it is false. It just isn't supported by any evidence. Every university turf program that I have ever seen promotes aeration. Nearly every of the old lawn care sites (most no longer existing) promoted aeration for years. Every yard care service promotes it on an annual or biannual basis. This most certainly has resulted in a sizable number of lawns being aerated. Where are all the posts claiming that "After I had my lawn aerated, I have tons more weeds."? Where is there a statement by any turf program that they have observed increased weed pressure due to aeration. I, personally, have never observed such increase in my own lawn or any other aerated lawn. So it's disingenuous to discourage people from aeration with an unsupportable and therefore, false claim.

    I haven't aerated in almost three years. I can think of a couple of things for which employing plug aeration can be of benefit, but for the most part, there a far less expensive, less labor intensive and more effective alternatives, Allow the advantages of those methods to win the day rather the employment of an unfounded scare tactic.

    That's all I'm trying to say.

    Will aeration cure the most common problems? No, not likely. Will it hurt? No, not likely.


    P.S. One of the advantages of aeration commonly cited by university programs is that the cutting of rhizomes will promote spreading by enabling the severed daughter plants to create their own new daughter plants. OK, enough from me until the next rote posting of this urban legend.

    P.P.S. BTW I'm not taking issue with you danielj, I take issue with the statement. You're only repeating what others like to repeat as fact. If they say it often enough, they think it becomes true.

  • User
    8 years ago


    That picture indicates stressed grass, Either water or nutrients. A soil test will tell if it's nutrients, Ballpark, grass transpires about an inch of water a week that needs to be replaced. The more bare soil allows additional water loss through evaporation.

    You have identified the grass as Rye and Fescue and that is what you plan on seeding. Rye and fescue are bunch grasses. From a central plant, it sends out additional leaves and creates a "clump of growth, another plant needs to be close enough to fill in any gaps. They do not spread in to fill gaps. They do not self repair, so annual overseeding is required to repair or fill in gaps

    The time to overseed is Fall not Sring or Summer.

    The purpose of slit seeding is to bury the seed 1/4" into the soil. The major advantage is by burying the seed, moisture is better maintained around the seed. Minor advantage is that the "tilled" soil, the furrow, gives the seedling a slight head start on establishment vs having to break though a crust , if it exists.


    Spreading the seed first, then running the slit seeder works great with KBG, I have had no success doing that with Fescue or rye. I'm guessing that that process damages the seed. If you already have the machine, and don't mind the work, running the machine over the soil before seeding may give some small advantage to establishment. As stated run the machine one pass perpendicular to the slope or two passes at 45 degree angles to the slope to help reduce erosion. Nothing, other than a blanket, will stop erosion in a hard rain on a slope. That's Life.

    Fescue should be fed once on June 1, and again when it slows growing and is still green around Thanksgiving. A September feeding is optional.

    With rye and fescue, you are definitely on a journey and not a weekend trip. Overseed every Fall, cut at 3" (fine fescue-shade fescue- will lay over at heights of 3" or more) .

    My advice: overseed (2-3# of seed per 1000k), drop a starter fertilizer, water lightly 3x daily to keep the soil moist. Next year, follow the recommended fertilization, cut at three inches, water 1" at the signs of any dormancy stress. Next fall rinse and repeat. Continue until you get the turf coverage you want. Oh, and correct the soil per the soil test.


  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I'm not overseeding Rye because it's too shady. My mix is chewings, creeping red, and sabre III (for the shade and moist ground).

    The grass looks stressed because I stopped watering when I realized the grass was already thinning badly and I would need to do some major work to it. Plus, the thinner it got, the more water just ran off. So I gave my water bill a break.

    I had already planned on running the overseeder empty. I'll probably then broadcast spread the seed. I was planning on then spreading peat (or if I can get compost as suggested above) and rolling the area for good contact.

    My soil test will be sent out tomorrow, so I'll see what amendments I'll need soon enough.

  • danielj_2009
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Yard: If a lawn care service jumped off the Brooklyn bridge, would you do it, too? :o)

    I appreciate all the info you provide in this forum. You are one of the people I read with interest. Somebody, somewhere, must have taken some plugs out of the ground and tried to germinate whatever was in those plugs, and not on ground that was treated with herbicides and premerg's. I agree it is best to look for the facts, and not legend. Sometimes, though, only empirical evidence is required, and often is about the only way to get at the truth. If nobody with a healthy lawn aerates, then at least that tells us something about where aeration should fit into lawn care practices, for instance.

    Sorry again to the OP, shemmy, but maybe some of this discussion is useful.

    Morpheus, too much sun can cause hallucinations, you know!

  • User
    8 years ago

    Shemmy98: Good plan!

    The fact that water is running off concerns me a bit. It doesn't bode well for seeding time, when you need the water to penetrate.

    That might just be the speed at which you're adding the water on a slope. If so, it's less of a problem, but I'd still try to reduce the risk of erosion by trying the below. It could also be that you have a slightly hydrophobic soil (usually caused by the waxes and grease that bacteria produce, both to stick themselves in place and also as waste products).

    Try spraying 2 to 4 ounces per thousand square feet of any clear shampoo (baby shampoo, Suave, White Rain, generic, all both cheap and effective) in any convenient amount of water on the soil. Hose-end sprayers work great for this task.

    It'll increase water penetration, help break up the grease and dislodge the waxes, and also decrease the amount of runoff. For severely hydrophobic soils, several apps may be necessary, but you'll only have time for 1 before seeding or at seeding time. Still, you can repeat this as often as monthly if you wish.

    This is completely safe to use even right at seeding time atop your new seed, and the small amount of surfactant will actually help with water penetration into your newly-planted seed.

  • User
    8 years ago

    >>Morpheus, too much sun can cause hallucinations, you know!

    I haven't seen my dragon friend since I started wearing the ugliest mesh fedora you've ever seen when out in the gardens. I miss him, and the purple elephants that used to visit.

    >>Somebody, somewhere, must have taken some plugs out of the ground and tried to germinate whatever was in those plugs, and not on ground that was treated with herbicides and premerg's.

    Now that...that is an interesting idea. There's not going to be any such thing as a formal control, but that's not the point here anyway (technically, the control is the entire undisturbed lawn and garden, I suppose, but that's not formal). I could easily pull a plug with my tester, drop it in a sterilized seed tray, and treat it like the lawn. Plus another one that's treated perfectly for germination and sprout of seeds to get an idea of what the seed bank in the soil is.

    I have a lawn that gets, perhaps, three weeds a year (not including P. annua and P. trivialis, which are a constant battle in spring). My weed pressure isn't very high to begin with, so it'd be interesting to see what's hanging out, waiting--if anything.

    I can also reproduce the current idea of surface seeds that have been covered by taking cores and placing them in the garden--marking the spots with tiny flags.

    It's going to have to wait until after Labor Day; I have guests coming and already have piles of curing soap, drying seeds, and next year's water-soluble feed for the gardens being put together all over the place. I've got to clean up rather than make more mess.


  • danielj_2009
    8 years ago

    morpheus - that would be a great idea! Maybe you should start a new thread - even an experimental procedure so others could try, too.

  • User
    8 years ago

    I'm not a scientist, don't play one on TV, but have occasionally done fairly informal experiments. I'll be glad to document this.

    Next week, next week. When I said this place is a mess, I mean it, and I'm starting to get The Look that says I should begin to clean up or expect wolvesbane extract in my tea.

  • User
    8 years ago

    >>>Yard: If a lawn care service jumped off the Brooklyn bridge, would you do it, too? :o)

    Cheap shot. Unless I've seriously underestimated your skills, you know exactly the purpose for which I cited those sources of aeration promotion.

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Sprayed the shampoo yesterday, watered afterwards, and spot sprayed any weeds with RU this morning. Have the sprinklers set up to water 10 minutes a day the rest of the week. Will scalp and seed probably the beginning of next week.

    I know the slope is an issue, so should I modify my watering schedule when I finally seed? 4x a day instead of 3 to start, with slightly shorter times? My question would be what to do about when I need to start doing longer/less frequent waterings. I think this is what has set up shallow roots in the past. I think I kept going too frequent/short fearing the water was just running off or washing away seed/soil.

  • User
    8 years ago

    >>I know the slope is an issue, so should I modify my watering schedule when I finally seed? 4x a day instead of 3 to start, with slightly shorter times?

    Certainly, if that's convenient for you.

    >>My question would be what to do about when I need to start doing longer/less frequent waterings. I think this is what has set up shallow roots in the past. I think I kept going too frequent/short fearing the water was just running off or washing away seed/soil.

    Split watering can help in cases like this. Instead of watering the slope 1" all at once, do it 0.5", let it sit for an hour to a few hours, and apply the second 0.5". That gives the first application time to soak in before it gets hit again.

    Long, strong roots are going to be critical to holding the soil, so you want to do everything you can to encourage them. Appropriate watering is the biggest thing on the list, followed by feeding correctly.

    I can't get a feel for how sloped the area actually is (photos are notoriously bad for that), so it may simply be that grass isn't a great option there. It's possible that something like daylily would be best near the fence, and those hold soil like nobody's business.

  • User
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Sorry, I don't know why I thought you were planting rye in your mix. I wish I could help you with the shade fine fescue, I've planted it a number of times in a family members shady lawn (no hill) and have never had what I would consider good success. Always came in great that first Fall, but by the next Summer...Maybe too much shade, maybe just the nature of fine fescue as it wouldn't tolerate foot traffic and never seemed to root deep. Anything I could contribute would be purely off the cuff.

  • User
    8 years ago

    http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/45/3/393.full#T4

    TTTF has more than adequate roots to hold against erosion when established. Even Kentucky bluegrass can do that, as it's not necessarily the root depth, but the density.

    Other studies show that most grasses have the majority of their roots in the top four to six inches, depending. This is more than sufficient, when dense enough, to lock down the soil surface against erosion.

    Surface mass slows erosion by disallowing water to run off at full speed; the stems buffer the flow. Dense growth is really helpful.

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Here are two pictures showing the slope on both sides. The slope levels off the last 8' before it the back fence line.

    The slope is anywhere between 2-5%. Is that really too steep for grass?

  • User
    8 years ago

    That's not a problem as far as the slope goes. I have a greater slope than that in my drainage swale, which hasn't lost any soil in more than a decade. I have the same bluegrass planted there as the rest of my lawn, with Thuja standishii x plicata at the top of the slope.

    The issue may be the amount of sunlight if that shot was just taken now.

    Turf-Type Tall Fescue really does best in full sun. It has modest tolerance for part sun, and doesn't tolerate shade very well at all.

    Red fescue (it's green, not red) might do better in that locale. Red fescues flourish down to 2 hours of sun per day, but do fine in full sun as well (but will require a lot more water in sun).

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I have red and chewings in the mix I plan to put down, along with sabre iii poa t. I thought about including rye just for early germination, knowing it wouldn't last in the shade, but I feel like that would just deprive space and nutrients from the grass I want to survive.

    I still worry about the "moist" soil though. For example, if you look at the first of the two most recent pictures I just posted. The final 8'x8' section of ground is firm, but if I step on the ground water squeezes back out around my shoe. No foot print or indentation left, just obvious water squeezing out of the soil.

    I last watered 10 minutes at 6am (just before spraying the RU). And the only other watering was the shampoo application followed by 10 minutes of watering at 5pm yesterday. We've had zero other rain the last week.

  • User
    8 years ago

    Awesome, the red should do extremely well back there.

    For right now, I think I'd repeat the shampoo applications every 2 weeks (except during seeding time, of course) for about 2 months, then go monthly for a while.

    That damp soil can be caused by chemical or biological compression (the shampoo will help well with the latter, less but still some with the former). Or there could be a clay lens under the soil, or a very large rock that pools some water and lets it perk back up. Something along those lines.

    Heck, it could even be an artesian spring from water entering rock somewhere up above! Shampoo won't help with those, but nothing else would, either...

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Seeing another poor soul's pictures of his washed away work is making me cross my fingers the landscape burlap I applied helped in biggest trouble areas. Remind me again at what point I should remove the fabric? When I see seedlings through it? When they are x amount through it? Also should I adjust watering to account for the fabric?

    If anyone needs a thunderstorm or torrential downpour in the future, let me know. I'll do some lawn work and it will be less than half a week, guaranteed.

  • reeljake
    8 years ago

    I've never seen anyone on here recommend turface, expanded shale, or calcined clay products for these runoff issues on bare ground. It helped dry up a lot of my wet spots thru retention, but I didn't have those megaslopes to deal with. Simply dumping a bag of this stuff into a puddle has not only filled many of my low spots, they're firm enough to walk on even when saturated & the grass there comes back really fast. It was originally intended for baseball fields where the baseline paths are bare ground & puddle really bad. All that said, maybe sod the slopes & seed the flats?

  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I'll try to post pictures in a day or so (been home mostly morning or evening lately), but I'm about 1 week out and I'm getting fairly good germination. Sadly the heavy rain we had Wed of last week did push some stuff around on the non burlap covered areas.

    I guess I have several questions:

    1. I know I have to pull the burlap up, but certain areas have sprouted more than others. Should I wait until I see green popping through everywhere, or pull it now that I see green in just some places. Basically do I walk (cringing as I say that) on the new grass sooner or later to pull it up? or do I risk leaving it down?
    2. I have rough BG in my mix, which will take longer to sprout than the fescue. Do I stay on the frequent watering for a full 4-6 weeks, or do I take my cue from the fescue growth and cut back sooner?

    3. When I do finally cut the grass for the first time, can I simply much it or do I need to bag it? I'd prefer to keep the mower as light as possible and not use the bag, but if I have to ok.
    4. I'm going to have a TON of leaves start coming down over the next month. I get the lovely present of being at the top of the hill and having a nice gentle breeze blow nearly ALL the leaves up to my lawn from the trees behind. I know raking is essentially out, so should I be mulching, bagging, or blowing (to a more established section of the grass and bagging from there)?

  • User
    8 years ago

    1. Eventually the burlap will get stuck to the grass and pull out grasses when removed. I'd wait another week and then pull it, realizing you will lose some grass to the removal. Removal at 1 week seems too early, there's no way you have decent root systems yet.

    2. Keep watering! Bluegrasses require a minimum of 2 weeks (and 3-4 is better) to sprout. The baby fescue won't mind, but will grow at a fantastic rate regardless of what you do.

    3. There are a number of philosophies on that. I tend to choose the middle and say that it should be cut when it reaches 2", just enough to nick the tips off. That'll encourage bushiness in the new grasses. Cut several times at that height, not taking much blade per cut, then start adjusting upward to your normal mowing height. Three inches is recommended. You can mulch mow throughout the entire process unless you let very young grass get very long, in which case I might bag it that one time.

    4. You can mulch mow leaves as long as you're not burying the tips of the new grasses. On the bluegrass, that'll be relatively easy this fall, so in that case you can blow the leaves to another part of the lawn and mulch them there.


    shemmy98 thanked User
  • shemmy98
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I didn't think the root system would be that great, but I also know that I've seen recommendations for removing the burlap at 1/2" of growth above the fabric. In a couple areas that might be fairly soon, in others not for a while. Just didn't want to wait too long. I was thinking once I saw green tinge through most of the fabric (which should be by the 2 week period) to venture out and pull it up.

    Since some areas will hit 2" well before others. Should I wait until 50% of the area is at 2"? More? or Less?

    The one good thing is we currently have no rain predicted the next week and a half so I don't have to worry about mother nature throwing me a nasty curve during this stage.

  • User
    8 years ago

    Oh! With cooperating weather, it's not so important, then. Remove it whenever you want--if it doesn't rain for 10 days, that's enough time for the grasses to start growing in, and fescues develop very fast. By ten days from now you'd have to remove the burlap anyway.

    Recommendations range all over the map. Half an inch through the burlap should be just fine. Just barely showing should be just fine. About the only things I wouldn't call just fine are no visible sprout yet and grown through like a short lawn. :-)

    You can certainly remove it in sections as areas grow through that half inch. Or if that section is buried in the middle of other sections that haven't yet, wait a bit to avoid damage from walking on it.