Any soil can be a no till soil, the criteria would be a soil well endowed with organic matter that is not compacted. Any soil that is compacted may need to be tilled so if one does nothing to compact that soil tilling can b stopped.

I went from a garden plot that was 80 feet wide by 100 feet long to planting beds 6 feet wide by 100 feet long that never had any traffic on them. With the big garden plot annual tilling was a must because of the foot traffic that compacted the soil, and the whole area needed to be tilled while once established the planting beds never needed anyone walking, driving, or otherwise doing anything to compact the soil and so never needed . Adequate levels of organic matter were maintained by mulches, adequate nutrient levels were maintained by additions of compost, and those were incorporated into the soil be the Soil Food Web.

It can take 3 to 5 years to get that soil, if starting with a soil devoid of organic matter. It depends on the condition of the soil at the start.

The best way to examine the soil while causing minimal disturbance is with periodic soil tests for soil pH and nutrient levels and with these simple soil tests.

1) Soil test for organic
material. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in
a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and
replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24
hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight.
For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the
bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above
that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole
1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains
away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain
away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs
more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the
soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful
of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is
released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a
finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your
soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant
odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria
will be and the nicer your soil will smell, to a point. Too much organic matter
can be bad as well.

5) Life. How many
earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5,
according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that
is not healthy.

kimmq is kimmsr

For very poor, compacted clay soil with little OM and no drainage to speak of, does it make sense to till in compost in the first couple of years (as opposed to letting the compost sit on top), or does the disturbance to the SFW gradually establishing itself outweigh the benefits of manual breaking and mixing?

Lazy, how long did that transformation take for you?

My yard was 100% fill dirt... clay.. with a layer of sod slapped on top. When we first moved in I just would flip the sod over... and do the lasagna additions to the top and then mulch with leaves. After 4 years the soil slowly got better, but not very deeply. It still had drainage issues.. and the soil cracked badly when it got dry during the height of summer. The plants dig okay.

I figure the existing soil is so poor, what harm could I do... so many years back I started double digging/tilling new beds that I created in the yard. I only go a foot down or a bit more. I remove a good portion of the existing soil, break up the very bottom of the bed, toss the sod to the bottom.. and then add in a ton of amendments back with the remaining soil. It's a pain to do, but as long you don't do it all at once... its manageable. The plants seem to like it a lot, it's easy to dig in... and I only have to do it once. So it becomes "no-till" after the double dig. The soil is much more "alive" now when i dig into it... folds more then the original soil.

In the fall, I even lift existing plants... double dig.. and then put the plants back. It makes everything much easier.

I started with heavy clay with very little organic matter, 4-6" of topsoil with even worse clay underneath. Compacted by construction eqpt. only two years earlier. I did the tilling for several years to get compost into it. I too gradually went to smaller beds with paths, and as they 'fluffed' (and with moderate additions of silty sandy river bottom soil now and then), they raised up to 4" or so above the surroundings. Tilling and digging tapered off gradually, but I'd say it was probably 10 years +/- before I felt like I didn't need to disturb it with wholesale turning over. Except for digging holes to plant tomatoes and such.

Tree roots have kept me digging though: during the no-till years they were getting in and by the time I dug down again, I had roots the size of my wrist less than a foot down. So that's the other side of the coin, if you have trees.

even no-till soil, unless it is really sandy, needs a little digging early on. To place organic matter, not finished compost, under the soil line. You could do one till if you were to drop a lot of OM the first time. The easiest way to do this is called hugelkultur (and it would be a dig, not a till), but there are other ways too. Whatever makes the soil like forest soil eventually, with a soft top and numerous root channels underneah. The soil web will do the rest.

"For very poor, compacted clay soil with little OM and no drainage to speak of, does it make sense to till in compost in the first couple of years "

Yes it does. To have soil that does not need tilling, that good healthy soil, you need to get it to that point and that may well require tilling for some time.

kimmq is kimmsr

May I ask a question...

You seem to have a specific goal in place. What are you trying to accomplish? Because different aspects of this question lead is seriously different directions.

The general topic of no till vs tilling is a question of agriculture on a large scale, and you're not going to get good answers, or even balanced information, here.

You asked three specific questions.

1. There is a quality of soil that shouldn't ever be tilled. Soil that is too wet when it is tilled can have some very bad things happen to it. While this can happen, it's not that common, in particular in home garden situations. Beyond that, there is no criteria for selection for tilling or no-till. If anything, the poorer the soil, the better the choice for no-till. Specifically, erosion factors. Either soil type or topography, or both, can make a specific location a better candidate for no-till, but any soil could be.

2. What are you trying to accomplish? What are you starting with? This question cannot be answered definitively. There are too many variables.

3. It's called a soil sampling probe. Google same or check such equipment at gempler's.

Now for the fuzzy math part of this. You can accomplish a goal by following different paths. In particular, with this subject, there are many different paths, and many different deeply held opinions. Of course, the only right one is the one that works for you...which, by no small coincidence, is going to be mine ;) The fact I am attaching a $20 bill and a case of craft beer has nothing to do with influencing you.

But let's start talking about what you are starting with and what you are trying to accomplish. Yard and landscape beds? vegetable garden? or 20 acres of sweet corn and peaches?

You can see that some soils are just not too suitable for a no-till plot. I don't till, but that doesn't mean the soil doesn't get turned over. That happens in an incidental way by planting, pulling, and moving soil from one bed to another as it shrinks down (heavy OM here). And just for fun, here's an infamous video from the no-till maven herself, Ruth Stout (said to have run wild with Carrie Nation).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNU8IJzRHZk

Jon - About three years.

We were growing chilis, okra, eggplant and other "bush" veggies in that plot.

waynedanielson

What I want to accomplish is to create good healthy soil for my woman's vegetable and flower gardens. I want this to involve the bare minimum of physical effort, because we both have some health and overall energy problems. I would like to - as much as possible - set things in motion once, and let natural processes carry on soil maintenance for us.

What I have to start with:

• budget of $0
• requirements around the house that make it hard to find a job
• several smallish plots (the smallest is 1x10 feet, the largest is 3.5x20 feet) of the infamous Georgia red clay, AKA "ultisol" type soil: rusty, acidic, nutrient-deficient, water resistant, and in this case badly compacted and nearly devoid of bugs, but with plenty of grass and other weeds
• about 50 red wigglers, unknown number of cocoons, and some isopods in a newly established bucket vermicomposting system
• an overgrown lawn that will be mown again when I can mooch a few bucks for some fuel for the lawnmower
• a 6x9-foot weird hybrid of a lasagna plot and an add-as-you-go compost heap, currently 6 inches deep (it sank as it started breaking down), but likely to get much deeper as yard waste accumulates or is spotted on curbs
• a nearby shopping center that generates plenty of cardboard box waste I can use
• 9 cats I'd love to get using sawdust for litter, if I could just find a source for free sawdust
• an occasional chicken manure supply from my future mother-in-law's coop when I clean it
• coffee grounds from a 3-4 pot per day household
• egg shells
• small amounts of junk mail
• an old beater pickup truck with a nearly empty fuel tank
• an eye for noticing useful junk, after surviving a nasty homelessness experience

As I'm sure you know, red wrigglers like garbage. I used to till, but its been what, 10 years now that I don't, I just heap up mulch and let the worms do the work for me. I've got quite a few physical constrains, so my main soil improvement tool is a very small bladed irrigation shove: dig a hole, dump in garbage, bury it, let the worms go to work. You can also just dump the garbage on the garden ground and cover it with grass clippings, I do that as well. Only rarely do critters dig it up.

Note I have a 3 acre lawn and a spiffy riding mower that collects grass clippings @7 bushels a load, so there's that....:) Anyway, the trick to improving soil is keep on adding organic matter - quantity is more important than technique. Just get it in contact with your future garden soil any way you can.

So this is not a philosophical discussion of agricultural production methodologies, but a question of how you can get more out of a home garden, for few blisters, er...less work, I mean...and even fewer $$$.

There are many people who have ways you can make the garden less work. For the most part, the answer depends more on the person answering the question than the question itself, and absolutely not at all on the person asking the question. I mean, if you aren't willing to do what I do for the reasons I do...get thyself to penance, thou slothful and useless wretch.

But then you used a word...either you understand the word, in which case, you don't need any help from anyone here, or you are in deeper than you realize.

If you understand ultisols, you know what you need to do. The question is really more about the physical and financial limitations you have the misfortune to deal with. On the plus side, you should have a knack for scrounging...that's something that will come in handy. the rest is just fuggering out how to do it...and ultimately, that's your path to travel. Many people will have advice, and you'll take a piece here and a piece there...and eventually create a system that works for you, or you'll give it up.

So let's start simple. What can you grow, and what do you want to grow?

So what do you know about your specific soil? I know what I can remember from a few soils classes back in the late Pleistocene period, and while there are some specific types in this soil order that can create definite challenges, there are some specific types that shouldn't be too difficult.

Which gets us back to the question, what can you grow, and what do you want to grow? the easiest way to make this as little work as possible is to grow things that will grow where you are, with the least amount of effort from you.

"Ultisol" is not my own word, it's a term that came up when I was looking into the distinctive characteristics of red clay like we have here. I understand that it's the end result of continuous mineral erosion without major soil rebuilding events, that the red colour comes from iron oxide (rust), that calcium carbonate is absent and other critical nutrients are likely to be low, minerals that can wear away already have, that alkaline saturation is low so the soil tends toward acidic, that it can take plenty of weight, it tends not to expand or contract much due to moisture changes, and that the nearly uniform very fine grains mean it can pack together tightly and interfere with moisture penetration, air penetration, and shovel penetration. I also understand that there's a lot I don't know, yet.

I wouldn't say I'm in deeper than I realize, but I'm well aware that I'm probably in over my head. This whole thing started just because my lady was having a bad day, I got a potted live mini-rose to try to cheer her up, and she decided she wanted to plant it. Composting, vermicomposting, soil conditioning and maintenance, growing food, it's all spin-offs from that one spontaneous event.

What can I grow: I'm not yet sufficiently educated nor experienced to say that inclusively and with certainty. I can say that the tomato and squash plants have taken off explosively in a rather labor-intensive plot we started (don't want to do that again), and the cucumbers aren't looking like a monster movie but they're growing in nicely. Canteloupe and watermelon are growing, but we may have planted them at the wrong time or in too little space. The okra is coming up but it seems to be losing out in competition for space with the melon plants.

What do I want to grow: We're not too picky about specific plants. We'd both like to grow versatile, quickly- and plentifully-producing food plants to supplement and improve our diet, which is currently quite poor with the meagre finances available. She'd like some colour to add beauty to the property, when it occurs simulateously with food production. I'd like some conditioning plants to break up and add organic material to that clay, and promote a vigorous soil food web. We'd both like to get more serious about this come spring growing season next year, so while conditioning might take several years to complete, we don't have that much time to do nothing but soil conditioning.

What I know about this soil (untreated): it's red clay in northern Georgia; it gets nearly no shade because tornados have made off with all the nearby trees; it's compacted and hard enough to have broken a manual tiller and a hand weeding hoe (so far), but is responding with gradual softening to my building a compost pile atop a small plot of it and keeping it damp; it grows grass and weeds quickly and easily; it has virtually no earthworms and few other bugs living in it (with isopods being a major exception near the sides of the house, and a few ant hills), and water tends to stand until it runs off or evaporates instead of being accepted into the soil.

The plot we're working now that's successfully growing at least some vegetables: It's 5x7 feet, and we double dug it 1 foot down (and holy crap was that a challenge, it took multiple days and a lot of breaks). We pulled out all the weeds and their roots as much as we could, and mixed in 50 lbs of sand (playground, not builder's, I didn't know the important difference yet), 40 lbs of spent mushroom compost, about 20 lbs of dried chicken manure, 20 lbs of used cat litter (the simple non-clumping stuff), 5 lbs of spent coffee grounds, 10 lbs of shredded green leaves, and 20 lbs of shredded dry brown leaves. It still has some compaction and drainage issues, but not nearly so bad as before: it does drink the water down after several minutes of standing time, and it holds it well enough that we can get away with only watering 2-3 times per week, in 90s temperatures and no shade. It's some effort, but no longer a fight, to get tools into it. We are getting some new volunteer weeds, but not too many to pull and toss onto the compost to dry and die in the sun. It does not seem to have attracted any soil-working bugs, yet.

Looking at your list ... time is the main resource, followed by scavenged materials, with cash for garden at zero and a desire to minimize labor.

• a nearby shopping center that generates plenty of cardboard box waste I can use

Put one layer of cardboard on each plot, held down by rocks, and then piled with whatever organic material you can find as layers on top of it as it becomes available.

• several smallish plots (the smallest is 1x10 feet, the largest is
  3.5x20 feet) of the infamous Georgia red clay, AKA "ultisol" type soil:
  rusty, acidic, nutrient-deficient, water resistant, and in this case
  badly compacted and nearly devoid of bugs, but with plenty of grass and
  other weeds

Pick ONE plot that is most suitable for growing in terms of sun and water supply and throw most of your current resources at it. I'd go for the 3.5x20 plot if it's sunny. It's better to amend one area thoroughly and effectively than skimpily do the whole area.

• a 6x9-foot weird hybrid of a lasagna plot and an add-as-you-go
  compost heap, currently 6 inches deep (it sank as it started breaking
  down), but likely to get much deeper as yard waste accumulates or is
  spotted on curbs

Stop adding and move most of the material to the 3x20 plot, on top of its layer of cardboard. You may find that the material under that lasagna bed is suitable for planting fall vegetables like chard and spinach, maybe lettuce. It might not be great, but it's probably OK and it gets you fresh greens and a psychological boost.

For the rest of the summer, layer your resources onto the beds as you get them, with priority to the 3x20 bed for next year's spring plantings. If you get chicken litter, spread it an inch or so deep on all the beds.

When spring comes, plant okra down the middle of the 3x20 bed for its deep roots, and plant your other stuff in front of or behind the okra, right into the upper lasagna layers. You can intercrop fast growers like lettuce with okra.

Keep the soil under the top layers moist - If I spent any money on this, drip tubing would be my first expense, laid under the mulches.

When you have one bed into decent shape, remembering that Georgia clay will never be the deep black loam of the midwest ... let's settle for "grows veggies" and absorbe water ... focus on the next one with most of the amendments and layers. Cycle around the garden that way, with each bed getting its turn as the favored one.

=============================

If some pallets or remesh panels come your way, build a real compost bin or two to handle the expected fall leaf bounty.

http://lazygardens.blogspot.com/2015/05/diy-cheap-compost-bin.html

If you had really known all you needed to about ultisols...yeah, we're not that sophisticated here.

If you have had explosive growth in certain beds, it's safe to say that nutrient deficiencies aren't an issue. Over time, they may be, but are also able to be adjusted. It's called fertilizer...and if it's used as fertilizer, it's fertilizer. Looks like, acts like, is used as or in place of...you can call it whatever you want, but it ends up supplying extra fertility; ergo, it's fertilizer.

I've dealt with multiple locations where the topsoil was stripped off, houses were built, and before sod was laid, the builder (or more probably, his contractors) used compacting rollers to level the yard prior to laying sod. Once the sod was rooted, the water was more or less turned off. Once it dried out, you could only dig with a pick ax. I'm a fairly active guy, and I have tools tough enough to stand up to significant abuse...and all you want to do is swear and give up.

What I found was if you covered the soil and watered it, everything took care of itself. Moisture made the clay easier to dig, the combination of cover and moisture made the ground temperatures lower and more hospitable to the ground dwelling life we are able to see. Plants growing and covering the ground is not the same...they still need water, and in particular in a lawn, the lawn is often kept too short to really provide ground shading in any real sense.

Use what you can to create your compost piles. Keep them moist enough. My guess is, if you cover an area, you'll be able to dig in the clay under them in pleasantly enough in just a few months.

What I don't know is exactly what type of soil, exactly what condition you are starting from, so how long this process may take is unknown. It'll happen, it'll happen surprisingly quickly...but it'll also in it's own time frame. And to try to quantify that time frame is not something anyone can do without more specific information.

No money and don't want to work. And it's your woman's garden. Soil is the least of her problems.

Shhh..right over there is a fantastic example of the common foot-in-mouthed Internet troll--Internetus Obnoxstious. You can recognize it by its foul temperment and leaps to conclusion. Careful to observe from a safe distance as they can get aggressive.

Jon-pay no attention. Somebody needs a Snickers.

Heh. I miss working 60 hour weeks and getting paid for it. Some labors are more important than the ones that put money in your pocket.

"Snickers...when your stomach is pokin' at ya."

Paula Poundstone Snickers Commercial Bit

Definitely some pokin' going on here. :-D

chigardenlady

I got the future plots chopped down and left the tops on the ground to break down, then sprinkled some coffee grounds and crushed egg shell hoping to attract hungry soil bugs. Watered (not enough it seems, will do more if the rain doesn't take care of it soon), laid down cardboard and put some lawn clippings atop that, watered again. Going to burn some surplus tree limbs too big to shred and add the wood ash to bring pH up when I can, kitchen scraps and any other surplus organics will be added there as well. Prioritizing the 3.5x20, but I'm mulching the rest at very least, and if I can spare the OM, they'll get some, too.

I may have a line on a few tons of wood chips soon, those should make some nice decomposing mulch for the area. And if I can train the cats to use them instead of cat litter, I can get the whole thing breaking down faster with the N boost.

Going to leave the existing composting plot in place; the missus seems to want to see what it can do for that plot by spring planting time, compared to a similar plot we weeded, tilled and amended by brute force labor. But I won't be adding to it more, new OM goes to the new plots.

I hear rain, it just started coming down hard. Good.

If - no, WHEN - my worm bin takes off enough to spare some, I'll be adding some to the plots I'm preparing. I don't think I'll be able to supply enough vermicompost to make a difference this year, but if I can get a population of worms started in the decomposing mulch, they can help it break down and give the soil a nice mix of compost and casts.

Lifting the edge of a cardboard section for a peek, I saw a gang of ants in a shallow, newly dug tunnel, carrying eggs and pupae around. They aren't fire ants. I figure when conditions get wet enough they'll leave, but in the meantime, if they're strong enough to break that hard clay and want to pull down OM for their little ant pantries, they're welcome to.

My only problem right now are very invasive neighbor's tree roots that sends out very sturdy roots and little roots that are entangling the roots of my veggies. I'm going to get a pick axe and dig around my raised bed which only reduce some of them, that's all I can do unless the neighbor's landlord decide to spend $10,000 to cut that massive tree down.

What are the requirements for no-tilling? I would say that you need small raised beds with loose soil. I have large beds and areas so no-till isn't my cup of tea. Selective tilling gives so many more options to garden my gardens.

You can have a no till garden anywhere, just get the soil into a good healthy condition and do nothing to compact it, don't walk on the soil, don't ride something over the soil, don't tamp that soil in any way and there will be no need to till.

Good mulches will help keep the soil friable, also. This article may be of interest to some.

http://www.gardeners.com/how-to/building-healthy-soil/5060.html

kimmq is kimmsr

kimmq, I have large beds and areas. I want it like that. Mostly the soil is loose and healthy and some walking doesn't hurt it. I do hoe weeding and some with a tiller that sure saves time. I also like to till in some organic fertilizer before planting and have a smooth row for row crops. I also like to till in amendments. For small boxed in beds I can see some no-tilling, but we all ain't like that.

Depends on situations... If you are having sandy soil, or loam soil, I doubt tilting is required. For my case, my backyard is filled with heavy clay, I tried the non tilt method by pouring compost on top of it and keep topping up once the compost was depleted. After 1 over year, the improvement is very little, only 1st 1 over inch of soil turn into darker colour but it was still very compacted.

Some people says, its just the matter of time, let the mother nature does it works... The question is, how long? should wait for another 5 years before I start to use the soil for planting?

I'm trying a variety of approaches, time will tell which is best. I think I'm largely going to have to plant directly into compost in my first few years; if it works, I'm not complaining. I'm thinking over time, as more and more life is brought to the area, the lines between soil and top dressing will blur by the pumping of roots, the digging and hauling of the microherd, the leaching of rain, and the amendments will BE the soil.

I'm intrigued by the idea of deep mulch vermicomposting. It sounds like it can do a lot for fertility (and waste disposal) above the surface level, and attract plenty of hungry diggers to work below the surface. I've been making small transplants from my kitchen worm bin to the areas I'm covering with OM. If they take hold and establish thriving populatios, great; if not, the few wasted worms will be an inexpensive investment in a learning experience.

My clay seems to be gradually softening (though still compacted) everywhere I've got sufficient OM atop it to hold water until it's absorbed. I think even where I do end up digging, composting in place for a couple seasons will make it much easier. I don't mind putting in the effort when I can find time and energy after looking after the kid and the animals all day and trying to keep the house in one piece, if it will get me better results.

Jon, I missed this thread this summer, and want to come back and read it more thoroughly, but just wanted to make sure someone somewhere mentioned not to include the cat's sawdust in any kind of fertilization program. Look up toxoplasmosis, and stick with the chicken manure!

--Elisa

Big wire mesh cylinders filled with compost materials will improve the soil beneath it without much work. It would be a cold composting situation so it will take a good amount of time but little work. just keep making them and filling them up as you are able. Run off with all your neighbors leaves in the fall if possible. I would recommend trying to make a little cash mowing lawns if possible. Not really for the money but the clippings. Just try to get as much organic material as possible. Once one of the wire compost bins is done composting, move the bin to a new location and fill it up again. Eventually you will have some great soil.

The cash situation should improve (relatively) soon. One of the individuals that should be but currently can't really help with the kid that needs constant supervision is coming up on a job schedule change that should free him up to be more useful around the house, and in turn free me up to find work that pays money and doesn't make me crazy. Also, I checked out a local farmer's market and inquired about selling red wigglers and vermicompost when my little population takes off. They told me it's only $40 for the right to sales space there for a year; also they mentioned the individual who supplies the local bait shops is getting old, infirm, and unreliable, so they might well welcome a new supplier.

Regarding toxoplasmosis, thanks for the warning, I'm sure it's well meaning. I'm well aware of toxoplasmosis, and I believe the threat, while real, is overblown. Basic hygiene principles should be adhered to whether or not cats are involved. Any garden grown outdoors in an area with wandering wild predators will be exposed to carnivore poop with a toxoplasmosis chance whether or not cat litter is used. I feel that avoiding use of the cats' byproducts is a waste of resources trying to eliminate a hazard that won't be eliminated anyway. The only difference made is whether our cats' poop is in there with the neighbors' cats' poop, the stray cats' poop, the dog poop, the racoon poop, the possum poop, etc. I don't see a good reason to throw all those nutrients away when the pathogen difference it makes will be little or none.

It's not free, but if you want a cheap source of compostable cat litter, you can use pellet fuel made for pellet stoves. It works just as well as Feline Pine but at nearly at tenth of the cost.

I looked into pellets, apparently they're a seasonal item around here. I'll price check them at local places when it gets cold.