5b is the warmer of the two. Around here, where elevation changes and nearness to the river can cause drastic but predictible temperature changes, there is one tried and true method of finding out your zone. YOU take a min/max thermometer and put it in YOUR backyard. Once you have a few years of minimum temperature data, the calculation is pretty easy. However, you may not find it the most useful information. For the last ten years here, there is a cluster of lows around -15°F, and another cluster around zero. It averages out to a 6a. However, zone 6 plants can't handle the -15°F temperatures, so aren't appropriate.

Okay--another question for ya--have you considered miniatures, since you'd prefer something more mannerly? Many of them have fabulous bloom form that never collapses, especially if you're looking for that perfect, tight spiral. Most minis aren't that fragrant, but there are a few that are fabulous. I'm sitting outside right now, so I'll give you a rundown of some of mine that fit the bill: Voodoo - Tall & narrow grower. Lovely orange-juice colored blooms with yummy fragrance that are phototropic and change in sunlight to a screaming scarlet-orange. Pretty darn good disease resistance. Jean Kennealley, an apricot miniature. She has the bonus of fragrance, and gets pretty big for a mini. Spent blooms will flatten out & fade to nearly white, but I think she's spectacular. She's held a very high rating for a long time. Folklore is a hybrid tea with perfect spirals & yellow reverses to coral petals. Lovely scent, big shrub, good disease resistance. Grows taller than it does wide, at least for me. Gemini is a drop-dead gorgeous hybrid tea. New blooms open ivory with just a hit of a deep coral picotee, then it changes with sunlight to almost a completely coral flush. Mine like to pitch candelabras and I think that's due to the Grandiflora breeding line. Great scent. Flawless is a true, medium pink miniflora with a nice scent. It is very disease resistant for me & blooms like crazy, but it tends to have more decorative or frilly blooms than the classic high spirals. I love it nonetheless. I really want to recommend Secret, but I have to spray her to keep her happy. The scent and the blooms are worth it, though. It does not mind the heat and rain does not spot her blooms as badly as most of my other light-colored roses. How white is your white requirement? I grow Irresistible, another miniature. It has no scent, but oh MY!! The blooms retain their form for at least a week and a half, it grows spectacularly, it's very mannerly, and disease resistant. It is a bit cream-colored upon close inspection but looks white from a distance. Also in my white-ish category is World War II Memorial. It's technically a mauve, but from a few yards back it appears to be white. It has glorious scent, very good disease resistance, and I just cannot describe the way the blooms contrast with an almost forest-green set of foliage. The aroma is incredible. It does spot with rain, unfortunately, but it's one of the few whose spots aren't that unattractive. If we get rain while there are blooms present, it looks like a white rose with pink freckles. One of the hardiest I have is Garden Party, but I'd describe it as an ivory rose that likes to have pink petticoats every now and then. Very good disease resistance and AWESOME fragrance, but mine grows like Audrey from Little Shop of Horrors. I think I witnessed her eating a rabbit this morning. [Or maybe it was that Swamp Tea.] All of these are repeat blooming, and I'd say that Flawless, Folklore, and Irresistible are the quickest to repeat. Gemini is sluggish, but when she blooms, she chucks out about 30 at a time. I live where blackspot pressure is very high due to silly nighttime cooling and condensation. I spray for blackspot, but these are the best of my 60 roses that fit your bill. And since I am too lazy to edit my post [Swamp Tea again...dangit], I totally forgot Tahitian Sunset. I am in love with this rose and put her in a bad spot where I can't admire her while on the deck. It is a skyscraper of a hybrid tea with apricot to pink blooms that have a perfect spiral, and the scent is unusual. It has been described as anise, licorice, myrhh....but everyone at work loves to stick their nose in her when I bring her in. Very, very good disease resistance. These are some of my faves, and if you haven't been over to HMF to check out people's rose pics I would encourage you to do so. There is no better enabler for rose buying than this website and that one, combined.

Masiel - my teas have grown a bit fewer since last year's bitterly cold winter but I still have 4 or 5. The best have been Mme. Antoine Mari and Maman Cochet, and with the leaf bag protections they'll bloom more or less all season. Mrs. BR Cant is also good and fairly reliable in blooms, as was Georgetown Tea, though neither was a particularly full bloomer at any given time. Duchess de Brabant was never a strong rose, but she was mostly shaded out by some aggressive clematis and might not have gotten a good chance to show herself. That's one of the roses that died off last winter. I have grown Monsieur Tiller and Safrano at various points and had them overwinter at least once, but they weren't robust. Ditto for a couple of other teas that slip my mind. I planted the china Archduke Charles last year on another zone 6 recommendation, and I have Clementina Carbonari and Mme. Berkeley on order for this spring. There are probably some others, but those are the ones that come to mind. FWIW, even if Elie Beauvillain is 15+ in warmer zones, she might not be that big for you in zone 6. It depends - my MAC is HUGE when happy and drapes over everything in sight (easily 15' on a good year), but my teas are no more than 4' tall at best even though they're usually 8' or more in warmer zones. I've posted a picture to give you an idea. Mme. Antoine Mari is to the left of the inner path, Georgetown Tea is to the right of the path (just barely rising above Savoy Hotel), Mrs. BR Cant is barely visible toward the left back and Maman Cochet is at the far left. Cynthia

Magpie, I don't remember that well how many feet the canes looked bare...I think it was at least 3'. Yes, there are trade offs for being in a dry climate. I think an own root Alchymist might not be as huge . Mine was an ungainly grower...sent out very long stiff canes. I still liked it. A climber I bought this spring is John Cabot. I think Frances in NJ's plant is gorgeous. Another couple of climbers I like but which are not very big plants: Penny Lane...seems to be a tough plant Courageous Love Polka... mine has been in a lot of shade but still is healthy and blooms and grows. I put another one in more sun to replace dwindling MAdame Alfred.