I guess I bumped up against a photo posting limit, so I have to continue my post in a reply.
The basement has 6'-10" ceilings and was partially finished, but not well. It's got water marks 4" up the wall, so we'd probably just pull out the paneled walls, paint the walls white and turn it back to unfinished. However there is a bathroom that needs a gut job.

The electrical panel:

I'm assuming a full re-wire and re-plumb (all is original). That wasn't a huge deal for Mr. Weedy in our current 1-story, but a 2-story adds more stuff traveling through walls.

So what have we got to look forward to, and is it worth it?

What would be the impact of ripping out all the plaster and replacing with sheetrock? You'll need to do a fair bit of work on it anyway after the rewiring and replumbing, and pulling down the plaster would give you a chance to inspect the structure for water issues, make sure you have plenty of insulation, etc.

You need to decide whether this is a labor of love or an investment. You "love" the process of transforming a diamond in the rough into a restored jewel of a home. This means that you will spend time and effort far beyond what makes sense from a purely financial point of view. Let's start with the windows. You could repair the weights, reglaze, sand the painted trim, and restore them to their original state. Reglazing isn't hard, but it's time consuming. By the time you remove the window, take out the old glaze, prime with linseed oil, put the new glaze on, let it "cure," paint it, and replace the window....since you're not an expert, figure 2-4 hours per window. Glass ain't cheap either--for those big windows, roughly $15 per pane. And then you still have single-pane wooden frame windows that may need further attention. Or you could put in $189 WindowWorld windows and your buyer will walk in and go "Wow! Brand-new windows!"

Tuckpointing will be easy on that post. Easily a DIY job. You need to have the chimney inspected. If the flue or cap need rebuilding--yeeeess, you could DIY, but on a 2-story roof I'd hire it done.

If the woodwork was originally shellacked (hard to tell from the photos), you could refresh it easily by just doing another coat of shellac. In lieu of Polyshades, I have a new favorite product from General Finishes: their gel stain. Less opaque and easier to control the final thickness. Light sanding over trouble spots and apply that, and you should be good.

If you're looking to flip, a second bathroom/large master closet would be more valuable than that fourth bedroom. You do need a bathtub somewhere, otherwise you exclude families with young children. They do make 48" tubs. Would something like this work?

I would not remove the quaint bathroom if there's another bath in the house with a shower ( I think you said there would be).... and especially if its not for you, but youre anticipating some hypothetical future buyer's preference.... which may or may not be the same as yours. So someone has to walk several yards to get to a shower - authentic vintage baths are actually considered positives and are often shown in listings.... a significant percentage love a deep soak and will consider it a plus. Aside from paint and possibly tile, Id only rethink the storage in that bath - perhaps some sort of tall angled corner wall unit or built in would fit nicely in there + shelving above the toilet.

@mohonri: The plaster is in good condition overall. It would be way more work and cost to completely rip it out and install drywall. There's not enough money in this house to contemplate that.

@expect: wow, you nailed me on the head. That's the biggest risk in this: that I'll go overboard relative to its eventual value (probably $100K). It's not in an ideal location that would make me move in long term (busier street, steep driveway), so I can't (mentally) write off the extras as justifiable for our own enjoyment. Can I reign myself in...that's the big question.

Interesting take on the windows. Around here, original windows beautifully restored aren't valued as much as replacement double-paned ones. (This same market likes laminate and doesn't value hardwood!!) Still, full replacement of 34 (!!) large windows is a significant chunk of change, and probably more than the cost of reglazing. I'm going to take Mr. Weedy over this weekend, and I'll count how many problem window panes there are.

@kashka: you may be right on the bathroom: that I could/should preserve it. As above, not sure how much that's valued in this market, but it would certainly be simpler to just replace the floor and do something with the cabinet.

If I could turn one of the 4 bedrooms into a bathroom, that would be great. But all 4 have gargantuan windows on both exterior walls, so I'm not sure how I could accomplish that. Maybe I'll post in bathrooms to see if anyone can help with layout ideas.

BTW, the current 2nd bathroom is in the far reaches of the basement. Not nearly as convenient as having another one upstairs.

If youre talking about hiking far to the basement to go to bathroom in middle of night, I would agree its a hardship. But for a place to shower or bathe, the fact it's away from the hubub might be a virtue to a hectic harried mom .... that's assuming its a pleasant spa-like space with a lot of light, not dungeonlike and full of centipedes like my basement... ewwwww. I would not object too much to relocating the tub down there feeling strongly that it deserves to have a future in this house.... but then again .... why bother, what is really gained if you can create a pleasant walk in shower somewhere else.

Re windows you can get state of the art, reasonably well insulated storm windows (even with e glass if you want it) for substantially less than all new good quality windows. Best of both worlds, no? I believe that the more you can preserve/take it back to its origins (or replace with esthetically and materials comparable) the better, in terms of return on investment, perceived value by buyers, esthetics, etc. Obviously that's not always possible and things do have to be replaced but as with fine antiques the more authentic and true to its origins. and well cared for the more value

It looks like a beautiful house still reasonably intact (not remuddled) so I really do think you maximize the value by remaining true to its origins as much as possible. So I think that consideration needs to figure into your cost estimates. That's why if theres an original kitchen (yours isnt) it actually can be more cost effective to reuse some/all of orignal cabinetry to whatever extent is feasible VS custom designing authentic vintage-look cabinetry.

If a house has been seriously altered abd shoddily remuddled over the years then youd have more of a blank slate and a different set of considerations.

Editted to add - the aforementioned better quality storms in dark brown would greatly help the exterior appearance (instead of the old silver aluminum color) There are also storms that are like modern storms but come in a wood frame that can be painted any color.

Working Windows: A Guide To The Repair And Restoration Of Wood Windows By Terry Meany

This book is the bible for DIY restoration of wood windows.

We are in the 3 weeks into having to use our basement bathroom. It's a new bathroom with a new shower and it's a PI the A for showering every morning. I'd opt for trying to put a shower head in at the top of the tub. Could you run new piping thru a wall there?

You've shown that you can restore floors so I'd go after the vinyl. There is probably wood underneath it and it would be wonderful to have it back.

I think electric is your biggest issue - I'd rewire fully. If you want to keep push button switches, you can get new ones at classicaccents.net.

I wouldn't worry about the roof at all, if it's not leaking.

And landscaping...clean that up and the house would be so much different.

Keep the plaster :)

If all the mechanicals (pipes, wires, heat) need outright replacement, you will exceed your 100K target before you get done.
That window to my eye has been eaten; probably by powder-post beetles. They live in the wood. How far have they spread?
You can't quickly poly over floors that have generations of shellac & wax on them. You can, however, clean them up and apply another coat of shellac. No dust, no VOC's, no waiting.
The best thing that could happen to that house is a person who will own it, restore it carefully and live there until it's finished. The opposite of a flipper. A full and careful conservation/restoration will give you a great home in the long run. And it may help the neighborhood turn around.
Have it thoroughly checked out to assure that the whole thing is not bug-eaten, rotten, ready to burn down.
Casey

You make your money on the acquisition on these types of deals. Start at what the house will sell for fully rehabbed, start deducting realtor fees and expenses and see what's left. You've got to get paid for your work and your risk. If it ain't there, walk.

Been there, done that, rehabbed a beautiful house and lost money. Took a 1900s Dutch colonial split into a 2 flat and returned it to single family status. New roof, new paint, new wiring, new plumbing, new drywall, new floors, new bathrooms (2.5), rebuilt windows, new kitchen...lots of work for a house for a market value of $120K

Tthere's a reason that house is selling for $25K and still available...

Take on the project if you want, but don't do it to make money. If you want to occupy your time, beautify the neighborhood, preserve history, provide affordable housing in your community -- those are all respectable reasons to take on such an endeavor. If making money is your biggest concern, there are easier methods.

That said, it looks to be in reasonably decent shape. Find an old house electrician who can run the new wiring without destroying every wall and a plumber who doesn't believe in tearing every single piece of pipe out just because that makes his job easier. Rehab the windows and put on new storms, scrape and paint the exterior trim (don't forget the lead paint issues!) and tidy up the landscaping on the outside.

it will cost close to 10% to sell the property by the time you pay commissions, fees, lawyer, title insurance, survey, fix home inspection issues etc. First, you will pay probably close to $27,000 for a $25,000 house...fees for the buyer as well as seller, so if you can start with $27 and gross $92K, you have $65,000 to pay for all the materials, professional fees, permits, tradesman, utility bills, insurance etc. After paying all those bills, you might find yourself left with $20,000...and spending 2,000 hours of your time getting that money - do you want to devote a year of your life for a $20,000 return ($10/hour?) Plus, don't forget all the bookkeeping and receipts for the taxman; that's a major bummer in my book since I detest paperwork. I would much rather do the work but someone has to keep the records.

One of the ways house rehabbers make money is by already having learned the expensive lessons on previous projects. Serial flippers have the knowledge and the contacts to get the work done at a reasonable price while first timers struggle with estimating costs and knowing how to manage the project.

Linda's right. Half the battle is finding the right tradespeople. After spending way too much time and money on my first foreclosure, I networked my way to a guy who's been flipping houses in my area for thirty years. His Rolodex (does anyone know what this is any more?) was gold. I now have a master plumber who is competent, honest, AND works for $50/hr. A guy who ripped out an oil furnace and installed an 80% efficient one for $1600. An electrician who comes and figures out how to solve my problems and then sends his son to do it for $20/hr. A roofer who charges half of retail. THAT'S how you make your money. Fix it up for wholesale and sell it for retail.

But then, this isn't about the money, really, is it? Ask Mr. Weedy if this is how he wants to spend his free time for the next year. Then maybe you could sit back on the weekends around the barbecue and count your blessings that you have freedom enough to let this project bless some other person's life.

Almost all of my work is redoing the work of low bidders. Keep hiring' 'em folks; I've got another 5 years or so to retirement.

Thanks for all the food for thought. Your reality checks, plus my
up-close view of the property have tempered my initial enthusiasm.

I'm not willing to labor for love on this house, because its location and lot setup isn't one that would entice me to live there long term. It's on a secondary artery in a small town (moderate traffic), across from a torn-down hospital that may become something else commercial, has a super steep driveway, and is on a narrow lot.

So it would need to make financial sense. We could DIY virtually everything, and I enjoy doing these kinds of transformations, but I'm on the fence about whether the timing is right. We're nearly done with our current house, except that we just paid some Amish boys to build a room addition shell that we'll need to finish on the inside. Our free time has become scarcer than it was a few years ago, thanks to my business growing. And making slow progress on a project is a sure formula for drudgery. The barbecue sounds much more appealing right now. :-)

There's a house with a similar layout and age around the corner from where we live now that we've got our eye on. The owner went into a nursing home last year and I think the POA is waiting until he dies to sell it. It needs neither roof nor windows, but lots of interior work. That one could be a labor of love, because the location and lot are good, and it's got a large garage (Mr. Weedy's biggest gripe about our current house).

Soooo, I think I'll take Mr. Weedy on a tour of this one when he gets back in a couple days and see how he feels about it in person.

Linda: how much did you end up spending on your duplex conversion?

Weedy - I don't have the exact cost figures available now but where we lost our money was the time it took to get the project finished (property taxes, utilities, etc) and the personal labor from myself and my business partner. Plus, the project came close to finishing off our partnership several times with arguments over such things as window replacement vs repair being a major issue. Our property was in a historic district which would have required wood clad or aluminum clad - no vinyl windows allowed - plus the associated time to get the approval through the design review committee. The one advantage of having a business partner instead of doing this with the spouse is you can part ways after the day is over and go home and vent to your spouse.

Our project was in a questionable location where four neighboring houses shared access so the far neighbor had an easement across the lot to get to his house. The lot was 185' deep which was plenty of room for parking and access but the driveway access was an issue for a couple of interested parties.

I like getting houses lived in by an elderly person, preferably many years of the same ownership. Usually each new owner does some remodeling so the fewer owners, the better.

If you have a growing business and a room to finish at your current house, you probably have your hands full.

While many opportunities look good at first glance, not every one is worth pursuing. If you are truly interested in doing this type of project, keep looking to find a good solid house which needs mainly cosmetics, not major rewiring/plumbing work.

Another issue with cheap housing is that previous owners may have really cut corners on upgrades and repairs because the market value just can't justify spending large amounts.

I am not an expert, but based on the cost of my gut remodel, I think there is a good chance that you might not come out ahead on this house. I dont think it would be worth the risk.

If you are going to do a lot of the work yourself, and only hire out the work for some specific licensed trades and work that specialty equipment or tools or skill are needed, you sound similar to what my husband and I have done on approx 5 houses in the last 10 years, all similar in age and character and condition to the one you are looking at. I know prices vary by region, and I'm probably opening myself up to a bunch of critical comments from people saying either we spent too much and wasted money in one area, or too cheap in another... But I want to try to offer some help in a possible pricing to help you decide if you want to go down this path or not... P

- hire a plumber: varies with the house and whether you add a bathroom, but plan for $5k, assumes they take care of big stuff, roughin the shower, code, venting, but you DIY fixture installations

- Hire an electrician: similar to plumbing, varies with the house, but assume $3k for them to do layout changes, code corrections, but you DIY fixture installations

- if a roof is needed and/ or painting touchups, fascia repairs, etc: big variable but for this assume $8k minimum

- assumes siding is in good condtition, $0k or add more

- assumes heat / air conditioning / hot water heater are all in good condition, or add more

- assumes water in the basement isn't a problem, or add more for dealing with mold, draintile, grade corrections outside, etc.

- Hire a hardwood floor refinisher: $2k

- assumes hardwood everywhere except kitchen and bathrooms, otherwise add more for carpet/ new floor in other rooms

- windows: Varies a lot if you repair or replace, and if replace what quality, but for this rough estimate figure $200 per window x probably around 20 windows would either pay for repair supplies and hardware, or a cheap vinyl replacement, DIY install. $4k

- Kitchen materials: ikea cabinets $4k with butcher block countertops, or add $3-4k for granite, $3k cheap ss appliances, $1k tile and paint, you DIY all installation

- Bathroom materials: $2k ( tub/shower, vanity, faucets, ligt fixtures, tile), You DIY all installation, Looks like times two in this house plus $1k powder room= $5k., all DIY installation except for the roughin plumbing notes above

- light and door fixtures : $1k, all DIY install

- basic supplies: Paint, sheetrock, spackle, sanding pads, hinges, eurythane : $3k, all DIY install

- holding costs: depends on tax rates, if you need to heat/cool, etc but if you figure $400/ month for 3-4 months (this would have you and your husband there probably 20-30/hrs a week if you are moderately competent but not streamlined professionals at this), adds a bit more than $1k, more if you have a loan with interest accruing.

Soooo.... If I add all of this up, I get at least $40k of fixup costs which is you doing almost all of the work. And I should note these are economical material and finishing choices. And assumes you already own all the tools needed to do the work.

If you pay $25 k plus $1k in closing costs (no mortgage fees) you'd have at least $66k in to it. If you later sell for $125k, after real estate commissions and another 3 months of holding costs, you may get $110k. So- best case scenario i think you might potentially take home a little over $40k for 3+ months of work.

Or, it could be a lot less profit if you hire out more of the work, if you add a 10% error budget ($4k), need new HVAC ($6k), mold/water issues ($?), extensive plumbing (+$6k), exterior repairs ($3-$15k), if opening up walls triggers other code improvements like insulation and vapor barrier ($2k or more), if you add landscaping curb appeal ($1-3k).....

Hopefully you find this helpful, and can adjust this to fit the house you are looking at, your local requirements and rates, etc. It can be fun to bring these houses back to beautiful, and there can be some money to be made doing it. But it's important to run the numbers upfront so you know what you are getting in to. It also makes the work a lot more fun when you feel like you are doing it "on budget"- noone has fun when things are going wrong or you are stuck midway knowing you are loosing money on it.

Another thing that my husband and I do, is we each get a $1k "allowance" to spent on "frivolous" things for the house. Well maybe "frivolous" is too spendy of a word, but for certain as you are going through the project you and you husband will have differences of opinion on what to put in the house: Maybe he likes a $2.99/sqft tile and you don't want to waste money and are ok with a $0.99 tile. If he really likes the more expensive tile, that extra $2/ sqft can come out of his "frivolous allowance". It allows both of you to have input and fun with some minor upgrades, but keeps a cap on them.

Good luck if you decide to do this - either on this house or a different one! :-)

Having a basement usually makes the repipe and rewire easier. Everything can cross the basement joists and go up to where you want it. There may even be a wiring and plumbing shaft.

It looks like it hasn't been upgraded much, which is an advantage: you aren't having to dine and fix some DIYer mistakes.

Engr girl: I'd say you're spot-on with your estimates. I love the idea of a "frivolous" allowance!

Another issue to consider is your local rules and policies. In my municipality, vacant properties and rental properties are required to use licensed plumbers and licensed electricians. If you don't live in the house, you may not be able to pull the permits.

Also, check with your insurance company about insuring the property...most homeowner policies require you to live in the property. You may find your options for insurance are about two-three times the cost of homeowner's insurance for very limited coverage. For a property like that, you may be looking at a minimum deductible of $5,000, perhaps $7,500 so be sure to figure in that risk in the overall project plan. Certainly the chances of a problem are limited, but weather damage can occur in any area. Another option may be to just get liability coverage and self-insure for damages

engrgrl: Thanks for all those detailed estimates!

I took Mr. Weedy over for a tour yesterday. This time we had a flashlight so we could see the basement and attic. The basement's wet, and there was some whitish mold on the lower part of the paneling. So likely some leakage problem to fix. And the attic had 4 different buckets collecting water.

In the end, the lot and location limit the upside desirability of the property, there's more work than there appeared from the initial photos, and neither of was feeling energized at the prospect of taking this on right now. So we're going to pass.

Thanks for all your input.

If you are interested in doing a project like this, just keeping looking. One of the houses will be the right property for your needs

I think you made a good choice in passing on this property