I love roses. I do like the Austins for their color, form and fragrance. But I also love OGRs. I have become a collector, and in that sense, I love the unusual and even rare rose. I even love HTs for their bloom form.

I prefer OGRs that grow well in my climate for the reasons stated by Jeri and others. They have adapted to my climate "naturally" before I tried them in my garden and I love the history. For years gardening magazines featured hybrid teas and floribundas. Most still do. They looked amazing, and I couldn't make that "look" happen here in Florida. In my opinion that look, means a healthy shrub covered with blooms, not sticks with vase roses on them. Others have done well with them. I have not. I think it is the Hybrid perpetual/ damask genes that cause the problems in this climate and work well in the northeast, for example. They need cold, and possibly dormancy. My attempt with Austins was no more successful than with floribundas. They are gorgeous and I would be planting them, but I can't seem to give them what they want. That said, modern roses, if they do well in my garden have a place it, if there is room. If they do great, I will make room for them.

I don't just love the blooms either. I love the rose plant, the shrub, the habit. The habit is the first thing I have noticed that goes wrong in my climate. I care about leaflets, prickles or lack of them. Kordes roses, for example: they are acclaimed easy care roses with an old fashioned look. In my climate, my personal experience with them is that they become leggy thorny climbers that don't bloom at all, with exception of the miniatures that become 8 foot ramblers. Austins are similar, except that they black spotted like crazy unsprayed and bloomed beautiful blooms on very sick plants in my garden. I care about how that shrub looks when it is not in bloom. I have had great results with Paul Barden's Golden Buddha. It is the picture of health, a compact beautiful low shrub!!! It does have thorns, but the size of the plant make that a manageable problem. It also likes some shade, a great thing for a crowded urban garden! I believe that one is a hybrid bractea. I do have a floribunda rose that I put out in my back alley 2 years ago because spider mites love it. That is where I put my roses I don't want. People can come by and take them. This rose had no takers, jumped the pot, rooted in the ground. It gets no care, no attention. It taunts me every time I look through the back gate and see those orange flowers! It has died many times but won't go away!

Well, roseleigh, you strike a chord with what you're saying though my climate is a bit more acommodating of more 'northerly' roses than yours. Still... Mind you people still think that most rose will do well in the South, judging from some comments in my thread about my desire for more warm climate roses. The right way of looking at this is that while yes, most roses will survive, many do not behave as their breeder intended to because their attributes were selected to fit colder climes. Mind you this has nothing to do with old vs new. Roses have mostly been selected (at least in Europe, then the prime source of new breedings) to enhance their suitability to harsher climates since the late 19th century with the popularization of the rose and its escape from the Manor and its glasshouse. This was the main reason Tea development was abandoned.

..some of each is my preferred option... space and time management permitting......

...in this temperate climate, we can usually grow a good range, reasonably well.... many grow better elsewhere, but I think having an appealing commercial name is rather important too, and both the older and newer replicas tend to do so...

I grow roses which are tough (they have to be) and healthy and have no interest in history (well, not rose history anyway) so I don't care how old a rose is...nor do I think that either category (old/modern) carries any innate superiority. While location (climate and soil) is definitely of major importance, the next criteria rests entirely with the genius loci, or spirit of the place. My open sunny allotment. mixed in with vegetables and fruit was untidy and perfectly suited for spinossimas, hybrid musks, ramblers and species...whereas I now have a woodland (not a garden) where those gigantic ramblers and wildlings are totally, completely appropriate and happy...and the limitations placed upon me (lack of water, shade, competition) have been more useful than annoying. Too much choice is fatal and whilst the phrase 'less is more' often fell from my lips when wearing my professional hat, in my own gardens, this has never been the case...but discernment and discipline, not to mention repetition, carries a lot of weight in a huge, green undifferentiated space. Having had a fair few roses pass under my spotty care over the past 2 decades, it has been easy to winnow out the duffers, the divas and the just plain boring, leaving me with a handful of trusted, charming, easily propagated roses.
Shockingly, my rose collecting days are finished - there are a couple of dozen I intend to use throughout the wood while I indulge my short attention span and low boredom threshold with completely different plant families - wild flowers, shrubs, trees, shade and damp lovers - PRIMULAS!!!I

Oh yeah - mainly species, ayreshires, albas, sweet briars - very, very old indeed.

I prefer OGRs simply because of the mystery
& history surrounding them. Would age one appreciates, roses who have
weathered years and are still around.

I feel somewhat overwhelmed by all the new
roses introduced with a lot of hype and mass-produced like smartphones and then
discarded for the favor of new one. At least with OGRs, the not so worthy have
thankfully perished; Only those who have survived against all odds, natural
disasters, wars and trends, those with a story tell are left.

Every time I see my Alba semi-plena, I
don’t see a shrub, which flower briefly for 3 weeks.

I see a plant who has seen
Shakespeare, the French revolution, Napoleon, World War I & II and so on. Maybe
this rose inspired Molière, or Beethoven, by its beauty, simplicity and
fragrance.

And I have the honor of having part of the
original plant in my little garden 500 years after. You can’t in all honesty
say that for a KNOCKOUT rose, can you? At least not now, but maybe in 100
years, if it survives RRD…..

I would like to add to my post above that while I love the greater range of colors available in Austins and other modern shrubs, I also love old roses and Hybrid Teas and everything in between. I'm planting Boule de Neige, an old rose, today and am crazy about it, but I love the apricot-gold of Austin's Lady of Shalott, and when Berolina HT started blooming, I got wildly enthusiastic about that tall gorgeous yellow modern, but I'm also admiring my hybrid musks Felicia and Ghislaine de Feligonde. And my modern Valencia HT should open tomorrow--who would want to do without that modern color? But then there is my good reliable older floribunda Eutin--cherry red and good as they come (I have 3 of them!)--but I'm also waiting eagerly for my polyanthas to start blooming . . . .

And so it goes. They are ALL wonderful! I don't feel the need to embrace just one category of roses, to the exclusion of all the other lovely roses out there.

I guess my basic criteria are beauty and roses make my soul sing (those are not necessarily always the same thing) and bs resistant. And all other things being equal, I probably would prefer those with some literary associations--like my Lady of Shalott (Austin). Some historical significance is also nice but not required.

Kate

The old roses give me a satisfaction that the new ones mostly don't, and the species even more. Nevertheless, I keep falling for the new ones.

I like David Austin roses, but they don't seem to do too well in my climate. My mom is moving down some Gertrude Jekyll roses and those would be very nice, if they would survive the winter.

Mostly, I grow OGR, especially damasks...because they can take the winter (zone 4) but Canadian roses are also nice. I'm very happy with Rugosas, too...especially the Snow Pavement roses. Mine tend to be very pale lilac (almost white) and practically indestructible :)

Wow, Marianne is one gorgeous rose! I love the play of colors in the center with the outer petals nearly white. How does it smell? What is the bush like?

My problem is I never met a rose I didn't like. Old or new, whatever form or color, they all have their charms. I think, as stated above, the real limitation is what does well in my garden. So far that's a good mix of all types and that makes me happy. But I'm also not as picky as I used to be. I've come to realize no garden is perfect and none of them will be completely pest and disease free. You won't hear any weeping or gnashing of teeth from me if something spots or dies over the winter. None of them are perfect so I choose to spend my energy enjoying the ones I have blooming right now and don't sweat the small stuff.

forest, Marianne was a band last spring and since she is a once blooming climber this is her first flush. She has 3-4, 4 foot canes with about 35-40 blooms packed on them! They open with the marvolous peachy tones but in my heat (a week in the upper 80s/low 90s already) they slowly fade to a warm white still with hints of their earlier color in their centers.

She is so young that I don't have a good sense as to what the form of the plant will be. She does have a definite scent, but I have a lousy nose so I'm the wrong person to ask about that.

Forest if you want more info on Marianne check this link on Paul Barden's site.

Beautiful subk3! Marianne is gorgeous. I agree with Nik, the breeding of roses, in most of the 20th century was for roses that would withstand the cold. Until recently, that was mostly the case. But as we know now, location, climate and growing conditions should and do influence rose selection choices, and breeders are reacting to that. Christopher's comment about Austin roses leading him to OGRs mirrors my experiences and how I came to love OGRs, at least ones that perform well in my climate.

I've come to think of 'Marianne' as the finest rose I've had the privilege to raise.

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I see we're not allowed to embed HTML in posts anymore :-(
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The old roses take first place in my heart. That will never change. There's an almost spiritual connection with a rose that forms a bridge to the past, and I also happen to love the way they look. Without their appearance the historical aspect would not be enough to make me grow them. Modern roses that somehow mimic the look of old roses such as most of the Austins also have a place in my garden, and in some instances are equally beautiful, if not more so, than some of the old roses. What really matters to me is whether they, old or new, will fit into the vision of what I would like my garden to be, which is something that will blend into my Mediterranean-climate country landscape, without clashing modern colors or unnatural-looking growth habits like many of the hybrid teas. Campanula said it best in that they must fit the spirit of the place. In a small, enclosed garden that may not be so important, but when the garden naturally extends into the surrounding wild areas it becomes very important to me. Lately the drought situation has also imposed the overriding need to fashion a garden with roses that are tough enough, and few enough, to be able to survive without too much water. Old dreams have had to be discarded, and more practical considerations have taken their place. Nevertheless, the majority are still old garden roses because they are no worse than modern ones in surviving under present conditions, and they give the more natural, bushy, brush-like appearance that I find most satisfying, in addition to the mystique that satisfies my soul. Ultimately there will always be the pull between what you love and what you can grow, and the best answer for me is to choose the ones that can do both.

For those who read rose lit from ye olden tymes there's also a practical side to growing Old Roses which no one has mentioned: The experience with the true Old Roses helps us calibrate our understanding with what those old authors were expressing. Someone who has seen nothing but 'Double Delight', 'Queen Elizabeth', and 'Charles Austin' is going to have a defective understanding when reading Vibert, Boitard, Thory, Le Rouge, William Paul, and so on.

Trospero, you must be Paul Barden! If you feel that Marianne is your finest work, then it must be amazing! It is absolutely stunning! I am amazed at Golden Buddha, that is resistant to both bugs and diseases in my climate. I am going to try Marianne to see how she does in FL. You have done great work!! Thank you!

Yes. He has. :-)

I'm also a bit slack-jawed at the photos I've seen of Barbara Oliva and Etienne. That color! That perfection of form and quartering! If the plants produce that perfection consistently (and maybe/maybe not add remontancy), it would give the Austins serious competition. I think the only thing comparable is Falstaff.

I don't think much in terms of "old" and "new" when I select roses. My criteria are beauty--of the whole plant, not just the blooms--suitability to my growing conditions, and whether I can get hold of the variety. A plant that's rare or that few gardeners are interested in growing gets bonus points. I grow a lot of once-blooming old roses, Gallicas, Damasks, Albas, Centifolias, because they meet all my criteria. I also love and grow the warm climate roses, especially the Teas, and the Pemberton Hybrid Musks, but find them harder to grow well. And then there's the huge and varied family of ramblers, so sumptuous when they're in bloom: I have a fair number and wish I had room for a great many more. These are old roses or older varieties. On the other hand I don't greatly care for Bourbons, for example. So my idea of what's beautiful in roses leads me toward many older kinds, but all of them, and not exclusively them.

I find many of the Austin roses very beautiful, but I don't grow them well and they're very popular, so their survival isn't in question. (By the way, they're not a substitute for the old roses, in spite of their excellent fragrance, old fashioned bloom form and shrubby growth.) So mostly I leave them to others. And I don't follow rose news closely enough to form opinions about new varieties, though I suspect there are some I would love. So I'll continue to grow my beautiful but inconvenient once-blooming or massive, mostly old but glorious varieties.

Hi trospero, we have to upload pictures now. I'm not happy about it....

Your Marianne is beautiful! I just added Won Fang Yon and it's about to have it's first bloom. I've always wanted this rose and I'm so excited! Thanks.

Melissa, I agree. I just received a little known tea in a plant swap,
Arethusa. It is so lovely and has narrow petals similar to Perle d'Or. I'm in love with it already. It's not something that I even knew existed and wouldn't have if someone wasn't parting with it.

'I find many of the Austin roses very beautiful, but I don't grow them
well and they're very popular, so their survival isn't in question'

Melissa, not sure about the last part taking into consideration their trademarking, distribution and planned withdrawal policies...

Seil, I love your words of wisdom! I realized too over the years to keep it simple and enjoy. I used to freak out at every little bs leaf and every bush that didn't make the previous winter. Then over the years I realized that life is too short and there are many roses to replace the dead ones with. The garden is a place of tranquility and joy not a source of frustration and agony.

With regards to old roses: I agree that given the opportunity, I would like to grow more ogr. However having said that most of them are once blooming. For someone who has a postage stamp yard and a short growing season, I don't think that it will be my first choice. It doesn't mean that I don't enjoy reading about them and their history.

I agree with Seil that there aren't many roses that I don't like. I like to see variety and I like to see different roses in my garden. That is why I don't mind mixing different roses in my garden. I don't really care if my hybrid teas grows close to Austins (well I would space a row apart) etc. It is perhaps not conventional in garden design but in the end it is as Shakespeare once said: A rose by any name would smell as sweet. I would add that: a rose by any "variety" would smell as sweet.

I was under the impression (purely a result of mental speculation on my part and in no way resulting from personal experience) that places with short rose growing seasons would be ideal for once bloomers for the following reasons:
1. Many once blooming OGR's like it there or at least tolerate the climate much better than repeaters.
2. That place will often have coolish weather in late spring and summer extending the blooming season of once bloomers which is cut short in warmer climates
3. A relatively longer blooming season will occupy a large percentage of the short growing season.

4. There are early, 'normal' and late once bloomers so by judicious selection colour in the garden can be further extended.

I may be very wrong of course.

Going back to the species or older hybrids that are closer to the species is an inspired idea whose time has come, IMO. And not only with roses. Because these plants possess the often unsurpassed grace and fragrance (in many cases) that first drew people to them, whereas the modern plants may have rebloom, vigor, and other qualities. I believe Mike Huben and others are doing this with daylilies, and other plant breeders with iris, etc.

I think Nik has a very good point re growing once-bloomers in areas that have a short growing season, especially since the once-bloomers will put out a huge number of blooms in their one flush, often numbering into the hundreds, so that they give a really spectacular display, on large and often graceful bushes, compared to most of the modern roses. I can't grow them of course, and I think the equivalent here are the tea roses, which also grow very large and can have hundreds of blooms at a time, which usually aren't as spectacularly beautiful as the European old roses, but make up for that with their remontancy during our long growing season.

I grow mostly OGRs along with polys and hybrid musks. I have a smattering of floribundas, HTs and a a few Austins. I grow thgem mostly because I like history and I like keeping history alive. As odinthor pointed out, if all you've seen is QE and DD, you miss the reference. Some of the OGRs--moss, HP--don't do as well for me, but I've found most OGRs to be tougher than the new roses. They are more weather (heat and cold) hardy, more disease resistant, and the deer rarely eat them. They survive on very little. I have a friend who has a front garden of 20 or so HTs and Austins and she spends more time on those 20 that I do on all 500 of mine.

I had an interesting experience Tuesday when I down to Roses Unlimited. I was going thru the green houses and of course it was just overwhelming because everything is in bloom. The last greenhouse is mostly OGRs--noisettes, teas, chinas, a few bourbons, HPs, HMs and old ramblers. It was so much more restful--softer colors, more delicate blooms. I didn't feel overwhelmed, just curious. I felt I had time to wander and think and relax. So I've been looking at my garden, which is now in full flush, and thinking how much I love it, how magical and fragrant and welcoming it is. If it were full of the deeply color-saturated and large flowers of the newer roses, it would look like Las Vegas. My friend's garden makes a big Wow statement. It's impressive. But it is not so inviting and there are no surprises. There's nothing charming or sweet or dreamy or wistful or half forgotten. It's like Hollywood versus an old bookstore.

I do realize not all modern roses are garish superstars. Many are still subtle and many are very beautiful. But compared to Madame Hardy, Marianne just looks like a sex kitten. She's beautiful, alluring, sensuous, perfectly formed. But she's not a lady.

Nik, not all cold climates are created the same, as you surely know. Many in zone 3 are not able to grow Gallicas, Damasks etc. They are not reliably cane hardy.
In zone 4, we have a short growing climate. But not necessary a cold spring. Normally spring starts in mid April, the last date of frost in traditionally May 10, and by early as June we can have our heat waves. Roses flower around June 10.
Also as our growing seasons are short we crave even more flowers. So while I laud OGRs, I won't hesitate to get some recurrent roses for my garden. After all I was lured in the rose realm, thanks to an Hybrid tea, and spitting on it just because it is not from the century before is not rose-like so to speak.
However, having a blooming machine, while desirable is not necessary a blessing.
In the East coast, we have Japanese Beetles. They love munching roses. So, any flower lingering in July will be gobbled up by them. Hence OGRs are a blessing.....

A sex kitten??? Seriously? :-(

@Buford: I won't upload my photo to Houzz servers. That's an invitation to IP misuse. Its how people's photos end up in ads without them realizing they've given their IP away.

I love history. Ideally I would love to grow the once- blooming OGRs that empress Josephine had at Malmaison, to connect with what has gone before, but, having tried, I am left with one own root Orphelline de Juillet that suckers everywhere but never flowers! I am, however, able to grow Teas,Chinas and their various descendants,which include OGRs in their background. I also grow some of the early 20th c. H/Ts that I remember from my grandparents' gardens, for sentimental reasons. Then, because I am a roseaholic, I add to my garden those more modern roses, preferably fragrant, that I see and love (and have room for!) If they thrive in my z10 climate then I am happy.

Oh My!!!! Barbara Oliva... what a gorgeous rose. Guess it would perish by late June in my climate??? so sad....

I agree with many, having hope that new breeders are more cognizant of disease resistance being important (although I am specifically interested in summer heat tolerance), versus those of the past. I see OGR's as the beautiful, charming, tough old coots that have stood the test of time, can tell many stories and should be valued. I also just LOVE roses, and will buy any class of rose striking my fancy that will grow happily in my garden. Thank goodness I have an aversion for some, not all, yellow roses, so I can limit the rose monster some how.

Well Nik, let's put it this way. It is mid may now and my roses are just putting its first leaves since all my roses except L.D. Braithwaite has been cut down to the ground due to last harsh winter. It would probably be around mid June to see our first flush of flowers. The peak of roses for us to enjoy is really July, August and early September. By early October, I would see the last few odd blooms. Of course you have to take into consideration of Japanese Beetles attacks in early summer and Black spots and mildew starting August for me. So when it boils down to it, it is really only that few weeks of June and July where my roses is "beautiful". If I had the space then I would definitely grow Old Garden Roses. But like I said it is not a feasible option for me in my postage stamp garden. I think what I may end up doing is if I decide to grow Old Garden Roses is use them as hedges. I am trying to do my front garden, but perhaps use them as hedges like Rugosas while grow modern roses in the middle. Ok, my brain is going crazy with inspiration at the moment!

What you are missing is that roses truly adapted to your climate don't need to be cut down. So right now I've got 6 roses in bloom. They also don't get blackspot or mildew, so they look nice behind summer blooming perennials.

One once-blooming OGR can produce more flowers in a week than a poorly adapted repeat bloomer can produce in its lifetime.

Ever since I was introduced to Old Roses I've nearly always chosen an Old Rose over a new rose when both have had beauty, fragrance and disease resistance. The only exception is when I needed a deep yellow remontant rose in my garden, which is why I gladly accepted a modern unfading yellow rose recently as a gift from a friend to add some sunshine to a bed of Westside Road Cream Tea, cl. Florence Bowers Pink Tea, and Mme. Alfred Carriere.

Beauty of growth habit and foliage is as important to me as beauty of bloom and fragrance.

It is why I scoffed at H.T.s for so long (sorry H.T.s!)until I saw many early H.T.s and at vintage gardens home garden that were less hybridized, many of which had a Tea parent, and Pernetiana rosebushes that showed foliage genetic influence from a wild rose.

I greatly desired 'Etoille de Lyon' but I've not found it in commerce for years and none of my cuttings of it rooted. sigh... if all the old roses we ever wanted were easy to buy. A friend of mine when she first visited the Old Rose Celebration suggested we "go look at the roses in the bouquets of roses in the vases on the tables first and then choose which one of those to buy."

I remember thinking the same thing on my first visit to the O.R.C.. ...if only...

Lux.

Hi trospero, That makes sense since roses are your business and much more professional than my snapshots.

BTW, I quite like the idea of having a 'sex kitten' in my garden.

"But compared to Madame Hardy, Marianne just looks like a sex kitten. She's beautiful, alluring, sensuous, perfectly formed. But she's not a lady."

The problem is in my garden Madame Hardy had to be put out of her misery because while she might have been a "lady" she was a lady that was riddled with malady and disease. She is the star in my sample pictures of "Damask Crud." If being a "sex kitten" means floriforus and healthy please, please give me more sex kittens!!

I totally agree with catsrose: so many of the modern roses have every virtue except those of grace and charm. I can't pronounce on 'Marianne', as I've never seen it. It's not just 'old' vs. 'new', as I've already said. The Pemberton Hybrid Musks, which are technically modern roses, are the highest example of roses that are more than the sum of their parts, possessing that mixture of delicacy and richness, with fragrance, which is my rose ideal. There are very lovely varieties among the early 20th century Wichuriana ramblers, 'Alberic Barbier' and 'Edmond Proust' to name a couple; and never was there a sweeter rose than the Polyantha 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner'. And on the other hand many of the Hybrid Perpetuals are stiff plant with outsized blooms that rival any modern rose for coarseness (not all of them: there are lovely plants in this varied class), and I'm not a great fan of the Bourbons either. Many of David Austin's English roses are as lovely as can be. There may be current hybridizers who are developing roses as graceful as his, but I haven't seen them: the new roses I've seen from other breeders have had old fashioned blooms on rigid Hybrid Tea-style plants. Mr. Austin may have a thousand faults, and his roses too, but he has still developed roses that are like nothing that came before and that are among the most beautiful roses that I at least have ever seen.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and life is short so I plant the roses that make my heart sings and accept that imperfection is ok in my garden.

I was going to suggest if the OP likes the OGR's with a new twist, to try Paul Barden's creations. Paul, my favorites here in Kansas, so far, are Allegra and Crested Damask. Allegra is a vigorous grower that throws perfect, absolutely every one perfect, blooms for me. Crested Damask is young for me, only a couple of years old, but I love the unique color and it also gives me well-formed blooms. Gallicandy is good for me too. Marianne....well, I hate to be the voice of dissent, because I love its vigor and the bloom shading and fragrance...but I rarely get a bloom here that isn't hurt by rain...looks a little like botrytis blight, blooms are often brown-edged. I've grown her at least 5-6 years and most of her blooms are damaged every year. Must be a climate or rain-timing thing.

"Neither do we now grow the old, once-blooming, European roses. They need winter chill we cannot give them."

**********

Mine are spectacular this year, and I attribute part of their success to record cold weather in February and March. They are planted in a northeastern section of the garden which is ideal.

The other factor in their success was the absence of predators. Although I've had most of these roses for 10-12 years, this is the first year they have ever performed to standard. At first they were too young, then we had a deer problem, and for the past five years, the whole county was troubled with inchworms so numerous that they defoliated enormous oak trees.

I would recommend the old European roses to anyone who lives in an area with cold winters. They are so easy to grow, and nothing surpasses them in form and fragrance.

Lindsey

More than half of my roses are the old European roses, some old ramblers, and a few modern climbers, hybrid musks, rugosas, polyanthas, and Austin "reproductions". Since I don't spray my roses or provide winter protection, I am limited as to which modern roses will grow here without becoming martyrs to blackspot.

I love the foliage on most of my old European roses -- matte instead of shiny, bluish in the case of the Albas. The color palette is limited mostly to cool colors that blend well and never are garish. You can still make a "wow" statement when they bloom though. Scent is important to me, of which most of the old roses excel too. The history of the roses can be interesting too, and the knowledge that the particular varieties that have stood the test of time are better than the many throw-away new varieties that are developed today. I bet less than one in 100 of the new varieties will be around in a hundred years.

I can't grow many of the repeat-blooming old roses due to blackspot issues in the bourbon and hybrid perpetual classes, or hardiness and blackspot issues of the teas and chinas. Hybrid teas and floribundas generally are blackspot prone and tender here too. I've grown many Austins and they've been a mixed bag. Some are very blackspot prone, but I've found a few good varieties that have survived no-spray. Generally the flowers are larger and the repeat is better than the old roses. I try to stay away from the more modern colors apricot and orangey. Some have wonderful old rose or fruity scents, some have stinky myrrh scents, some light scents, I find I have to be more picky and choosy.

I think those who can grow these ancient, fragrant beauties should give them a prominent place in the garden since most people grow modern varieties. Does anyone else get as tired as I do of seeing Knockout in every garden, shopping center, and development?

I do want to grow the three stud Chinas and the closest relatives or Parks' along with a couple of other old yellow teas I've acquired along the way, but so far they aren't doing well for me and I don't whether it's because they haven't yet recovered from the deer problem we had or because my garden just doesn't suit them. They do--or did--quite well at Hollywood, but I haven't been back to see what they are doing now since I discovered and reported RRD in the fall of 2008. Hollywood's location along the river, however, would probably be a bit more hospitable in winter than my garden.

Lindsey

I have grown both David Austin roses and OGRs in Southern California. I no longer grow OGRs, and I have become a David Austin rose addict. Many Austin roses now have exceptional health, very good repeat bloom and heavenly fragrance. While some OGRs are also strong in these same categories, I know of few that put all the qualities together in the same rose. What I have found especially lacking in OGRs (with the exception of the Portland Rose de Rescht) is a good repeat bloom. Many do not repeat at all, and of those that do rebloom, it is often just a light autumn bloom. I once tried to grow the once-blooming Damask Madame Hardy, and I don't think it produced more than 3 flowers in the 3 or 4 years that I grew it. I don't think it liked the lack of chill in Southern California. I finally removed it. In contrast, I find that many, but not all, David Austin roses equal or surpass the OGRs in their old-fashioned beauty and fragrance; and some are in almost constant bloom. My prime example is the Austin rose Tamora. The repeat bloom in my garden has been as good as any floribunda, and I find the myrrh fragrance to be exceptional. Some people complain that Austin roses are too big for ordinary gardens, but there are cultivars that remain relatively small. Prospero reliably holds to the size of a floribunda in my garden, and Tamora is a little bigger. I also am growing some new varieties that most probably will remain the size of a floribunda or HT: Young Lycidas, Olivia Rose Austin, Boscobel, Munstead Wood, Princess Alexandra of Kent and Heathcliff. Many of the bigger Austin shrub roses make good climbers, and there are repeat-blooming ramblers, as well. I am growing The Albrighton Rambler along my balcony, and I have been very pleased with its repeat bloom and health. All-in-all, David Austin roses are by far my favorites.

Only a few European roses repeat; however, in my zone, the once bloomers put on a spectacular display. For whatever reason, teas and chinas haven't done particularly well for me. Your climate is probably too warm for European roses. They need cold temperatures and a certain period of dormancy in order to bloom.

Lindsey

Interesting - in my Northern CA Mediterranean climate, ALL of my tea roses (NOT hybrid tea), tea noisettes, and chinas repeat so often that they have a lot of bloom continuously for at least 10 months a year. Perhaps in a hotter zone in So Calif. they do not do that - I don't know. I think there is some confusion sometimes when people say that old roses do not repeat. They are talking about most of the old European roses, not the asian ones, which are just as old, or older (some old asian roses, like the hybrid giganticas, do not repeat, but most of them do). The old European roses like colder winters than we have here, so they grow better in cooler climates, and most of them do not repeat. Somehow this sometimes morphs into statements that "old roses do not re-bloom" - NOT true! Also, the "color palette" of old roses is NOT restricted to pale pinks - I grow old roses which are all shades of pink, raspberry, pale yellow, bright yellow, peach, mixtures of peach & dark pink, white, cream, mixtures of yellow and other colors, and red. I have not seen any which are purple, or bright orange, but I do not miss those colors personally. Again, I think it is a case of LOCATION and exact garden conditions - folks sometimes make way too general statements about what roses do, instead of saying "here's what they do in my garden conditions".

Jackie