Ratdogheads - my Henri Matisse stays between around 3-4 feet in a mostly sunny spot, but might be a little larger in a full hot sun location. Suffice to say that planting it behind my Champagne Moment was not one of my brighter ideas, and it involves some judicious pruning to make both of them visible. Redwolfdoc - welcome to the fun of rose growing, and always feel free to start a new thread on a topic where it might get more response. I checked the website HelpMeFind, a TERRIFIC website for roses and well worth the optional membership fee, to look up Blue Angel. Both the regular and climbing versions of Blue Angel appear to be on the edge of reported hardiness for our zone, but those are default ratings so not anything to discourage you. If that rose has survived your winters, that's already a good start. Blue Angel cl. is reported to only bloom on old wood, which means that it won't bloom well if it has to regrow from dying back to its roots or graft each year, which is typical of some types of climbers that survive but don't thrive in our zones. Still, 3 seasons is still way too soon to make a judgment about a climber. They tend to spend more time than non-climbing forms in putting down roots and preparing to make their moves, so if it grows some or is at least green and healthy-looking in the active seasons, you might give it some more time. In my world, alfalfa hay or pellets is always a good thing to add to a rose to boost its production a bit in spring. To give you perspective, my Madame Isaac Periere - that is definitely hardy in my zone - was unexciting and unremarkable for 3-4 years while it was putting down roots. Then last spring in its fifth (?) year, it absolutely ate up every rose near it and was stunning in the spring. There's a standard rose wisdom that for roses, first year sleep, second year creep, third year leap. For climbers, you have to give them another year or two of creeping or sleeping before you get leap years. Hope this helps, and welcome to GW! Cynthia

Wow, I'd forgotten about this thread and a LOT has changed for my ratings in the last four years. Vaporvac - sorry it took a while to get back to you about your question. Disneyland lasted about 3 years for me grafted from J&P then died, so I replaced it own root about 2 years ago. It didn't come back last winter but that's one that i still pine after and will probably replace whenever I can. There's something about the solid "pow" of color that makes my heart sing, and to top it off my son wrote the name tag for that rose when he was about 9 so it has a sentimental value that way too. Moses, glad this is helpful, but to be really helpful I need to update the listing above quite a bit. For starters, very few Harkness roses are hardy for me in zone 5, with the exception of Samaritan and Volunteer in a normal zone 5 spot and Savoy Hotel and Well Being which are grafted and in my zone 6 pocket. A few of the climbers by Harkness are also hardy - Perpetually Yours and The Prince's Trust are several years old and Ginger Syllabub has survived my zone 4 pocket - but they almost never bloom. Olive is a better bloomer (a few blooms a year) but it's no more than 4' tall after about 4 years. I still do have some Harkness survivors in my yard that surprised me when I did a search - Apricot Abundance and Honor Elizabeth, International Herald Tribune are just barely hanging in there and Easy Does It and Livin' Easy have lasted sporadically but usually die off after a year or two. Armada, Bridge of Sighs, Carris, and Pride of England have only lasted one winter and that's not enough to consider them hardy yet. I've started to nix roses bred by Harkness on principle as marginally hardy in the way that Viragharavian roses simply aren't bred for my climate. It sounds like I have a lot of Harkness roses but given how many he bred and how many roses I have, it's not that many (compare that to 50+ thriving roses each for Kordes, Lim and Austin and you get the picture). OK, so here's my updated list from above with notes on whether I'd still rate them in the same group or not. Floribunda Roses hardier than expected in zone 5 (those w/ an asterisk are in a zone 4 pocket) 1 - cane hardy (w/hybridizer) Black Cherry - Zary (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) Black Ice - Gandy (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) *Bolero - Meilland (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) Bonica - Meilland Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale - Kordes (50/50 if it has surviving cane or not) Champagne Moment - Kordes Cherry Parfait - Meilland (50/50 if it has surviving cane or not) Cinco de Mayo - Carruth (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) Easy Does It - Harkness (put this one a 3 for me - needs my zone 6 pocket) *Eutin - Kordes *First Edition - Delbard (probably a 2 since it died in that cold spot) *Floral Fairy Tale - Kordes Grand Duc Henri - Lens (was cane hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Gruss an Aachen - Geduldig *Hannah Gordon - Kordes *Heaven on Earth - Kordes Heimatmelodie - Tantau (I'd bump this one down to a 4 - only lasted a year or two) *Hot Cocoa - Carruth *LavaGlut - Kordes Pink Emely/Bad Worishofen - Kordes Pink Gruss an Aachen - Kluis (50/50 if it has surviving cane or not) Pinocchio - Kordes (was cane hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Pomponella Fairy Tale - Kordes (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) Pretty Lady - Scrivens Puerto Rico - Delbard (I'd bump this one down to a 4 - only lasted a year or two) Rainforest - Moore (I'd bump this one down to a 3 - I've replaced in my zone 6) Sunsprite/Friesia - Kordes (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) World's Fair - Kordes (was cane hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Flori2 - root hardy (w/hybridizer) Amberlight - Le Grice Anne Harkness - Harkness (not hardy more than 1 year even in my zone 6 pocket) Bahia - Lammerts (probably a 3 - lasted several years & I'm replacing into zone 6) Bengal Tiger - Kealovetz (totally wimpy rose never more than 1-2' and finally died) Blueberry Hill - Carruth (probably a 3 - lasted several years & I'm replacing in zone 6) Burgundy Iceberg - Swane (not hardy more than 1 year even in my zone 6 pocket) Chic - Boerner (was hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Chihuly - Carruth Chrysler Imperial - Lammerts Colorific - Carruth Confetti - Christensen Disneyland - Zary (probably a 3 - lasted several years & I'm replacing in zone 6) Elina/Peaudouce - Dickson (was hardy but the graft died out and I'm replacing it) Escapade - Harkness (not hardy more than 1 year even in my zone 6 pocket) Everest Double Fragrance - Beales George Burns - Carruth Guinevere/Louisa Stone - Harkness (probably a 3 - lasted several years, don't want to replace it as it wasn't very exciting) Hettie - Barden (probably a 3 - lasted several years, I'm waiting to see if RV has it) International Herald Tribune - Harkness (had to replace once, probably a 3) Julia Child - Carruth Lilac Dawn - Swim & Weeks (was hardy but the graft died out and I'm replacing it) Marieken - RVS Mardi Gras - Zary Melvin - Jerabek Moondance - Zary October Moon - Barden (has survived several years in zone 6 spot) Olympiad - McGredy Oranges 'n' Lemons - McGredy Pillow Talk - Weeks (wimpy 2a rose, but it was in a poor spot and died over time) Playboy - Cocker (not hardy more than a year or two even in my zone 6 pocket) Singin in the Rain - McGredy (not hardy more than a year or two even in my zone 6 pocket) South Africa - Kordes (not hardy for me - I simply can't overwinter this Kordes) Tempi Moderni - Barni (not hardy more than a year or two even in my zone 6 pocket) Trumpeter - McGredy Wishing/Georgie Girl - Dickson (was hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace) Flori2a - root hardy but wimps (w/hybridizer) Ebb Tide - Carruth (bump this down to a 4 for me - has died in my zone 6 pocket) Hiroshima's Children - Harkness (not hardy more than 1 year) Irish Hope - Harkness (lasted a couple of years in zone 6 pocket but wimpy) JC Thornton - BEES (bump this up to regular 2, in zone 6 pocket) Kiss of Fire - Gaujard (not hardy more than a year or two ) Our Lady of Guadalupe - (own root OLOG is doing better than grafted one) Valentine - Swim (same as above - I'm replacing mine this year in zone 6 pocket) Flori3 - root hardy in protected site - zone 6 pockets (w/hybridizer) Drop Dead Red - Carruth (iffy for me, probably a 4 - both times grafted) Flash - Barni Grimaldi - Delbard Hot Chocolate - Simpson (not hardy more than a year or two) Innocencia Vigorosa - Kordes (probably better, but wimpy rose) Isabella Rosselini - Poulsen (iffy for me, probably a 4 - both times grafted) Lili Marlene - Kordes Minuette - Lammerts (iffy for me, probably a 4 own root) Sammy - Athy (iffy for me, probably a 4 - grafted) Summer Dream - Warriner Tickles - Dykstra Tiki - McGredy Wavria - Lens (iffy for me, probably a 4 - grafted) Flori4 - hardy only with protection (w/hybridizer) Atlantic City - Jolly (lasted a few years then faded) Daily Sketch - McGredy (might be better) Erfordia - Matthews (This one bumps up to a 2 - a rock star all summer bloomer) Guy de Maupassant - Meilland (bump up to a 3, has lasted in zone 6 pocket) Gypsy Carnival - Suzuki (dead) Little Darling - Duehrsen (dead) Mauve Melodee - Raffel (lasted several years before fading, might be a 3) Mellow Yellow - Carruth (might be better) Outrageous - Zary (might be better) Pride of England - Harkness (on its second try) Purple Heart - Carruth (dead) Spice of Life - Dickson (dead) Tenacious - McGredy (This one bumps up to a 2) Tuscan Sun - Zary (This one bumps up to a 2) Zambra - Meilland (lasted a few years then faded) That leaves the following as the floribundas that are the hardiest for me for the most years in zone 5, down to zone 4 if * (I haven't checked the ones planted since 2013): Bonica - Meilland Champagne Moment - Kordes *Eutin - Kordes *Floral Fairy Tale - Kordes Gruss an Aachen - Geduldig *Hannah Gordon - Kordes *Heaven on Earth - Kordes *Hot Cocoa - Carruth *LavaGlut - Kordes Pink Emely/Bad Worishofen - Kordes Pinocchio - Kordes (was cane hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Pretty Lady - Scrivens Anyone surprised to see Kordes leading the pack? I didn't think so... Cynthia

I was to Zosels Tree Farm today. I picked up 4 Passion and 2 Juliette. She was out of the Valentine, but will be getting more of all 5 in. They are last years stock and are 12" to 18" tall. Laurie also sold me 2 24" Carmine Jewel regularly priced for $24 each for $8 a piece. I bought 7 more rose bushes, but she charged me for 6. She also charged me half price for my perenials. I told you she is easy to deal with. Zosels does ship, but they don't have a website. Am I allowed to post her phone number and address? If not how can I get in contact with who's interested? Shelley

Hi Mindy - my reluctance with rudbeckia cultivars is probably 75% due to the overabundance of R. hirta seedlings in my yard (the gift that just keeps giving), 15% no room for anything in my garden, and 10% from reading about failures of one or more gorgeous new varieties over the years. Also, I'm just not big on buying something with the idea that it will die and I'll get a refund - not enough time for that, in my life. I'm probably missing out on a lot because of that little quirk, but ... so be it! R. herbstonne doesn't appeal to me, for some reason - I like the variety of the mongrel hirta's - some of which have great petal coloring. Cherry Brandy does look like a stunner, though - if it turns out to be hardy I might even get around to finding space for it, eventually.