I'd switch the refrigerator and wall oven positions.

Also, where are you storing the things that come out of the DW?

Thanks for the input! The things that come out of the dishwasher could conceivable be put away anywhere in the kitchen, but it'll likely be stored in the bank of drawers underneath the opening into the great room. That's where I'm envisioning putting silverware and dishes right now. Do you think that's a good spot for all of them? It's the first time I haven't really had upper cabinets for dishes so I'm not 100% sure where to put them.

I think I'd go so far as to put the fridge in place of the tall pantry cabinet on the corner, because it will probably be accessed more often from the seating at the island and the informal dining area. Maybe switch the DW to the other side of the sink for the same reason--dirty dishes will be coming from that direction.

Have you considered drawers for dish storage? You could have them on the seating island side where the doors are facing the other island. At any rate, I think you need more drawers. Here's a good thread with more info:

Would you do a kitchen with all drawers?

I guess you have considered them!

Or how about just putting a small beverage fridge under the island? Or on the left side?

I really like your 2 island design. It's a nice big kitchen, but it wouldn't hurt to make a list of all your dishes and kitchen equipment to make sure you have a spot for everything and that it is all close to where you use it.

" things that come out of the dishwasher could conceivable be put away anywhere in the kitchen, but it'll likely be stored in the bank of drawers underneath the opening into the great room"

would that be the drawers next to the wall ovens? That's a long way to walk to put everything away. how about drawers on the prep island and the serving island?

and drawers on either side of sink/dw - and stove (unless it's pullout trash).

It's better to figure out where things will be stored now instead of later.

I agree on the fridge. It's not in a good position now.

How wide are the aisles?

I'd move the prep sink to the end of the island b/c your island doesn't look wide enough to be your Prep Zone with the sink centered. Aim for at least 42" of workspace on one side of the prep sink. Ideally, you should have at least 18" of space on the other side of the prep sink, but your island doesn't look wide enough for that.

A measured layout would be very helpful!

.

I think you'll find the following FAQs very helpful:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, an

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

Kitchens FAQ page: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/kitchens-faq

Your kitchen will be beautiful!!

I agree that the fridge should move to the oven wall, probably there were that pantry is.

I'd replace all (or the vast majority) of lower cabinets with drawers. For SURE.

Drawers in the serving island (and also the shallow cabinets -- if possible, make them 15" deep for more versatile storage -- on the serving side of the prep island) would be a great place for frequently used dish storage. One wide (30-36") dish drawer can hold tons, so you have plenty of room there for a few drawers for dishes and flatware, and even glasses, etc, if you like, which would put all those things fairly convenient to the dishwasher for unloading and also your (new) fridge location over where your tall pantry is.

If you want, you could put a refrigerator drawer over there where your current fridge location is, to store frequently needed cooking items and/or a meal's worth of items, or whatever. Personally, my fridge is a good distance away from my main work areas, and I don't find it a problem whatsoever. Having browsing teens or table-prepping folks gathering salad dressings, drinks, parmesan cheese, etc, etc, for meals . . . constantly in my work zone would be a lot more inconvenient than me taking a few steps to grab a stick of butter for the skillet . . . So, for me, I'm a fan of having the fridge at least somewhat removed from the work area *and* convenient to the browsers in the family. :)

Where are your wine glasses, wine, etc. going to live? If you don't have a place for them in your dining room or butler's pantry, then you need to make a place for them somewhere. I don't know if they can be stored in lower cabinets easily.

Since we're putting the fridge where your pantry cabinet is, and you probably want some snack storage in that area, you might convert some of those drawers in that area into some sort of food storage lower cabinets.

Are you sure you want those little cute drawers making a hearth-like enclosure for your cooktop? I know they look really nifty, but I'd hate to have to drag a heavy cast iron skillet around a barrier between the cooktop and the counter. I'd rather be able to easily slide it over.

Why don't you move the dishwasher to the left of the sink and make the serving island all dish storage? That would:

1) Put dish storage an easy walk from the dishwasher. (Easy unloading.)

2) Put the dish storage near the new fridge location. (Great for grabbing a fork and leftovers at the same time or milk and a glass at the same time or whatever. Also, in this scenario, you'd want the microwave either next to the fridge or in the serving island as well, also for easy snacking.)

3) Put the dish storage precisely where you are serving. (Easy to set out a stack of plates for a buffet, etc.)

4) Keep the dish storage outside of the work area (so people grabbing a snack won't be in the cook's way).

P.S. Definitely make all your lowers drawers. It is one of the few things all Gardenwebbers agree on.

Thanks everyone for your input! And now I've read through all of your great instructions on how to post :) Sorry for not reading that earlier!

Here's an updated plot of the kitchen with some dimensions as well as some callouts based on the changes you suggested. The tall 'pantry' is actually going to be a coffee station. The real pantry is behind the kitchen at the bottom of the image. I don't imagine storing any food in our kitchen besides what's in the fridge. Speaking of the fridge, I did swap that and the double ovens. I feel like that still gives me a good working triangle. And I swapped the location of the prep sink to be closer to the fridge. There's also a second dishwasher in the prep island (sorry you couldn't see that before), and I located on the side of the kitchen where I'm thinking the dish/silverware storage will be.

Example of coffee station:

We toured a home that our architect designed and absolutely loved the kitchen, so ours is almost the exact dimensions. Our doorways are in a little different locations, but it'll give you an idea for the feel of the space:

Georgian - Parade of Homes 2012 · More Info

I love the location of their microwave, since it's back in the far corner out of the way and not really in a line of sight. But I can't figure out where to place our microwave? Any suggestions?

szruns - thanks for noting the enclosures on the cooktop - i'll definitely remove them. They'd be in my way too!!

If it was me, I would put both dishwashers flanking your cleanup sink on the side. I see no advantage to having the second dishwasher in the prep island, with it's drop down door potentially blocking your main working aisle. As you work on the prep island, it's close enough to move dirty dishes over to the side counter for cleanup. Then I'd put the dish storage in the serving island to be convenient to the dishwashers and dining area. I'd have a single large sink as your rendering shows, not the multi-compartment sink in your plan. Also, check your fridge specs... many won't allow doors to open completely if installed directly next to a wall. The doors don't open wide enough to allow shelf and crisper removal. You may need a spacer cabinet there.

Thanks DIY2Much2Do - you're right that the 2nd dishwasher would block the main working aisle. I never thought about having the dishes in the 2nd/serving island, but a few of you have mentioned it - maybe that is a better location for them.

We haven't selected the fridge yet, and I hadn't thought about it having issues opening if it's next to a wall. I guess it would be better either placed where the coffee cabinet is or where the double ovens are for that reason. I know a few people said to place it where the coffee cabinet is, but my only hesitation is that it's so far from the work triangle. I realize it would be nice when the kiddos want to grab something that they're not in my way, but would to be too inconvenient for me to walk around an island to get to it?

Where ever the fridge lands, put the MW next to it--most items that are heated in a MW come from the fridge. (Unless it's my coffee, which needs to be re-heated several times, on some days. ;)

This might be a good location for your refrigerator. You could get to it without walking around an island. Others can get to it without entering your main aisle. And the prep island makes a great landing point for loading or unloading the refrigerator. It also keeps your coffee station accessible.

Oops, I just noticed your opening to the adjacent room. So that location doesn't work.

Where ever the fridge lands, put the MW next to it--most items that are heated in a MW come from the fridge. (Unless it's my coffee, which needs to be re-heated several times, on some days. ;)

so true, mama goose!

Draw out the floor plan and With different colored pencils make traffic diagrams for various users. Where will they walk?

1 - the cook or cooks (prep, cook, cleanup)
2 - the table setting person
3 - guests getting ice
4 - people getting snacks, people getting coffee
5 - dirty cooking utensils
6 - dirty eating things
7 - Incoming groceries

If you have a lot of crossing lines, you need to move something - the refrigerator back in the corner will have people crossing through the sink/DW zone, or between range and prep area where they will be annoying.

You will have people trying to load dirty stuff from the table crossing the path of the person using the sink to clean up pots and pans ... move the DW to the left of the sink.

Defend the traffic lanes for the most common activities first.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/210754457533884778/

http://rhome410.blogspot.com/2011/10/tko-tuesday-zones-and-workpaths.html

Great idea lazy_gardens - I've never heard of that before but think that it will be helpful! I'm a roadway engineer so doing a traffic conflict point analysis should be fun :)

Stephanie, I saw this posted on another forum--since you're a roadway engineer, I'm sure you'll appreciate it. :)

Have you read the 'New to Kitchens' thread?

Ha! I have seen that before :) I sometimes feel like that's my house though!!

@Stephanie, it looks like there is a very narrow counter to the right of the fridge. I don't think that will be that useful and may just serve as a place for clutter to collect. We just had friends move their fridge for this reason.

I still think that the elephant in the kitchen is the traffic from the mudroom, garage, and side doors will all go right through the working parts of the kitchen to get to the rest of the house.

we had a very similar kitchen layout because i loved the double island look. recently someone suggested making an L shaped island and we connected the two. I wonder if I should have stuck with my instincts! i love talking to my kids while theyre sitting at the island while i cook, but with the seating on the double island, they'd be too far away. this brings them a little closer. also one side of seaters can have the view out the window. i moved the dishwashers flanking the cleanup sink. my foot traffic is coming from the bottom of the picture from the mudroom. good luck!!

Hi Jen11k - Thanks for sending me your updated plans. So you used to have 2 islands similar to mine? I do think the kids will be a little far away from the 'cooking area' but i don't think that's such a bad thing all the time either. Our boys typically do their homework at the island, so letting them have their own 'island' space and keeping it out of the cooking area is one thing that I like about having two separate islands.

Also, in our plan, the second 'serving' island is slightly larger than the other one. Our architect did this in the home picture above and when people gather in the kitchen they typically stay around that area - and don't really enter into 'work area'. I think that since you sort of have a pinch point between the bottom of the L and the fridge wall you'll probably experience the same. That feels like the work space, and people will probably stay near the barstool area. One thing with the larger L island, did you think about that to access storage you'll need to move barstools (or people on barstools)? I wouldn't find that very accessible, and likely wouldn't use it for things I use often. With the two islands, it's easier to access more storage areas. People in this post have even suggested putting dishes and silverware in the 2nd island so it's close to the serving, which is a great idea that I hadn't thought of before.

Do you have any renderings of what your kitchen would look like with the "L" island?

bpahome - yes, I know the elephant in the room is the traffic flow from the mudroom. There is a backdoor located between the kitchen and the informal dining - so hopefully that'll cut down on it. I really don't think there's anything I can do about the layout of that without increasing the square footage of the house to accommodate a hallway. I really want to keep the walk-in pantry, and I want to keep it close to the kitchen.

Here was our architect's original design which did have a better pathway from the mudroom, but the pantry seemed so far away from the kitchen, and to me it felt like wasted space to have the hallway. And there's no butler's pantry (which I guess isn't the end of the world. I also didn't like that the entry from the great room put you right into the 2nd island. We were trying to cut down the square footage of the house at that point, so we nix'd the hallway. Maybe that wasn't the best decision??

Original layout:

Something like this will put most of the working kitchen in the middle corridor, and if you need more buffet serving space, the counter above the dish storage is nearby. I made the opening to the LR narrower to accommodate the fridge. If you don't want to alter the door to the LR, a MW drawer could be used beside the fridge, under the counter, leaving the fridge in the space where the coffee pantry was drawn.

You just need to convince everyone to avoid the aisles between cooktop and islands.

Oops, I see we were thinking along the same lines.

I love the double island idea, very cool. I love the coffee station, but every person who wants cold milk/cream in their coffee needs to cross the entire kitchen to get it? So a bar fridge in the seating island, as someone mentioned, would be really useful.

my kids are still doing hw on the dinette table so we usually eat on our island. the double island didn't give me as many seats, I think I have 7 seats now with the L. yes the storage was made more inaccessable but i have my appliance garage, more cabs in the butlers and shelving in the walk in pantry so I decided it was ok to have the cabinets under stools be more for storage of things i use in a blue moon.

i have rough renderings since my cab order hasnt gone in yet -- they arent very pretty and we've changed it a bit. the short part of the L was made fatter and we made space for two seats on the straight side of the island.

Actually if you are keeping ALL food in the pantry the plan with hallway acts as a direct path from fridge to snacks for the kids - and not between sink and stove while mom is cooking. Keeping food storage closest to the fridge has been helpful to me with my eating machines.

Or going from mamagooses's drawing what if you switched the pantry door off the butlers kitchen instead of the way it is drawn? That will keep it close for you and close to the fridge for others. Might be handy for the dining room too should you forget something that is stored in the pantry.

Hi Autumn - I actually had the pantry door off of the butler's pantry first, but the architect switched it so that if I was unloading groceries it would be easy access from the garage.

I think your traffic flow would improve if you turned the kitchen orientation, e.g.:

Make the pantry a walk through, with pocket doors.

Put the refrigerator and snack station on the bottom wall.

Put the clean up sink and dish/glass storage on the pass through wall (L). Shift the pass through wall up so that there are 4' cased openings on either side. Traffic can now go along the bottom wall on either side (through the kitchen or through the pantries)

Put a range or rangetop/ovens on the window wall (R). Prep sink can go in an island now running from top to bottom.

Or, you could use a table instead of an island and also put the prep sink on the window wall. You could then ditch the informal dining area. Maybe base cabinets for overflow storage with a wall of windows above.

Good luck!

I thought of that but that is a weekly task (or for me anyhow) and not that much further - you have to go to the fridge anyway. The day to day would sway me to having it off the butler side. JMO.

Stephanie_sara,

I love the direct path from mudroom/laundry to rest of house in your architect's initial version, BUT...it leaves your informal dining area awfully narrow. (I doubt that your planned island seating would work, given the limited space.)

In your updated versions, seating is much better, but the (direct) path from mudroom/laundry to rest of house is between prep island & range, then through your butler's pantry.

Your inspiration kitchen is beautiful, but works much better because of the lack of traffic through the work zones. I'm not sure the best fix for your plan, but might still consider eliminating the butler's pantry (but enlarging the pantry & dining built-ins), in favor of a more direct path.

I'd echo buehl and others in recommending reviewing your work zones. I found this extremely helpful in planning my kitchen. You've made some nice progress, I think, in placing both dishwashers by the clean-up sink, and locating dish storage close by. Make sure, though, that you have a trash pull-out close by, too.

I also prefer your refrigerator in it's new location, closer to (both) eating areas, & the great room. I'll echo others, in suggesting a snack zone (near your refrigerator?), given the location of your pantry. Our pantry is off our mudroom (but close to cooking/baking zones), too, and works well for us...because our frequently used breakfast/snack items are in the kitchen, by our refrigerator/freezer.

My pantry is off the kitchen kind of like yours - entry not actually in the kitchen but behind the fridge and I have a drawer stack next to the fridge that is for snacks - open boxes of cereal, bread for the toaster, crackers and the like. Without that spot there it would be a pain to go to the pantry (in it's location) every time they wanted a bowl of cereal. I think you are going to want a snack zone whether the pantry opens to the left or the right behind that wall.

Walk through with pocket doors that was suggested is also a thought.

Thank you everyone for the feedback! I really really appreciate it, and feel like I'm getting great ideas!

If I revised the pantry/laundry and nix'd the butler's pantry, do you think it's weird to walk-through the corner of the dining room to get to the rest of the house? Do you think that would be strange?