Ok, so you did scare me a little, but thats because I feel like there is a lot of pressure :>). Id make it work the way we have it if need be, but I was really hoping for other suggestions. After all, this is our first home so Im only going by what I think I would love to have in my kitchen and what others have told me they like/dont like with their kitchens. Attached is the full house plan and I will try to address all concerns. Im hoping to avoid if at all possible going back to the draftsman. My husband said I could make changes if they are minor and just moving walls on the inside and Im hoping my builder can do that.
Celticmoon et al; First - great rough draft. Something I think I would really like. How can we really incorporate that into my drawing? To address other comments - The cabinets have NOT been ordered yet. The forms are in and they are pouring the basement tomorrow weather permitting. Good lord are they moving fast! So my husband wants whatever changes I am going to make by the end of the week. I didnt catch the overhang on the island, but remembered it now that you mentioned it. I never questioned it, but figured I would catch it when we went to the cabinet folks. We do not plan on using that for seating (at least the way the layout is right now we wouldnt have used the island with seats up against it). Here is my priority: Pantry/Cabinet storage would be first, island seating or seating around the outside perimeter of the kitchen and then the wall ovens. I like the idea of the wall ovens, but we really do not use the oven a lot. I love to cook and bake, but seems like most cooking is done on the cook top and baking is usually around the holiday, so not sure if it is worth putting the double oven in or if I will regret it. The wall that separates the great room and the kitchen I kept there because we have 9ft ceilings throughout except for cathedral ceiling in the great room and thought I needed a wall to break that space.

You mentioned MB; we havent picked our tub yet and will probably just go with a somewhat large tub with no jets. The shower will most likely be reduced to 5x4 or 5x 4.5 or so. Do not like the 2 door on the bathroom, but could move that wall back some and make it a larger door. If pantry gets moved into the kitchen then I would use current pantry as another closet in the MB. Marthaelena redesigned my laundry room layout which I love. You can see that post on the New Build forum under Final Layout.

rhome410 agree that it is a long walk around the peninsula, but original thought was that Id use it more for storage of big items, paper towels, cleaning stuff, etc. and incorporate cans and everyday food uses in the kitchen cabinets. Do not need bars facing out of the kitchen in 2 directions. Thought the one in front of the sink would be a breakfast bar with a deeper counter and the one overlooking the great room would be more of a drink bar with a smaller counter (if that makes sense). As you mentioned, the 29" space is not enough room to get around. Probably wouldnt have caught that until the walls were in, which would have been too late and Id probably end up going without the island in the center of the kitchen which I would have hated to do.

So at this point, Id say we could change the layout within, but not really change size at all or structural wall. We often have large gatherings and I would like to start hosting them at our new house. Most often when we visit friends or family we all gather in the kitchen and usually around an island/breakfast bar. Does anyone have a CAD drawing program that they could make these changes for me to visually see?
Thanks again for all of your great ideas and inputs.

{{gwi:1633007}}

oh - sorry you got scared. we're not usually very scary...

people here have been around a few kitchens - a few times...

celticmoon - that was my first thought - losing that peninsula, opening it up to the eating area. also makes it easier to get to the pantry and bdroom door.

possible short turn wing on that end - like buehl's.

You know, you could make the hall just go staight to the master bedroom and enter into a 'transition' space: closet ahead, bath to the left and bed room to the right. That might be nice. Make the master a very private retreat. I would like that better than the bedroom door being so close to the kitchen and dining rooms.

are you going to have people sitting up at the island and the 'bar' where celticmoon has the cleanup sink?

the sink could go on the cab run on the south wall (next to new pantry placement) and the wall oven over where you had the fridge. if you want to keep a 'bar' there you could have it set up so you could just pull a stool over there to sit up at it to eat lunch while wathcing the news, you favorite day time talk show, qvc etc. or make it a lower counter for baking.

What celtic did is good. I would be happy cooking there. When you think about celtic's layout, look at the drawing - she overlaid your plan to show the movement of walls, not for details like aisle widths. Her comment about re-organizing the mbr entrance is excellent.

What I would do is beyond the scope you set out. I would exchange the dining room and kitchen. For me, the kitchen needs a better connection to the outdoors and some windows. I can make a sexy and useful dining room in a space with only interior views, but it would be very hard for me to have a kitchen in that same location. I need access to the outside for cooking, gardening and mental health!

Plus, I don't like the flow of living room-kitchen-dining on general principals. Plus plus, I could shift some floor area to add some nice stuff in the mbr area - like an extra closet, a potty room with a sink inside it, not jog the shower out into the garage, etc.

what desertsteph said:

Here's another with simpler framing. (some people do crosswords, I play with kitchens) The master entry, sink and linen are shifted to allow a 'normal' shaped large corner pantry. Island is a bit shorter to allow a deep Fridge run counter - gets you that builtin fridge look without the builtin fridge price. No dedicated baking center - but some prefer the ovens close to the cooktop. Message center is back.

Depends on what you want most and what you won't do without...

Would you rather start from scratch? Maybe rotate the island 90 degrees and see what that leads to?

I already gave my thumbs up to Celtic's kitchen plan, but I also really love the changes to the Master Bedroom entrance. The original plan with the door in the very corner of the room limits the full use of the righthand wall of the room and of the corner. Moving that door, or better yet, the elimination of that door in the later alternate entrance by utilizing the other doorway into the room allows you to use that corner of the bedroom to nice advantage. Could now be a good place for vanity or dresser, or nice seating area.

Celtic's plan is REALLY GOOD! (Nice work Celtic!)

Make that plans -- either one (baking or clean-up zones flipped)
though I have to admit to a slight preference for having the clean-up zone facing out toward the family room.
That way, if the kiddos are in the family room, you could keep an eye on them.

One more hybrid, then I gotta do some 'real' work here... My favorite because it has no corners! This has 'snack central' at the bottom out of the cook's way Has an extended clean up area. "You want to help? Sure! Could you load/empty the DW behind you there?"

This has a nice visual from the greatroom: counter, then island, then centered range and hood on the far wall.

I also like that the kitchen workers get nice sight lines out to the dining, atrium and great room from both the prep island and the cleanup penninsula. Sweet.

Hmmm. Snack area might be even better with the fridge and MW counter switched come to think of it...

Intrigued by Bmore's idea to flip the kitchen and dining....

Swapping kitchen and DR is intriguing. Two possible downsides: it's a longer schlep from garage to kitchen with groceries. That may or may not be a big deal to you. I'd also move the currently planned kitchen doorway to the right so that you can direct traffic from garage to kitchen along the edge of the DR and not through the middle of it. The other downside I see is that swapping spaces puts kitchen noise just the other side of the MSTR bedroom wall. If you do this, take steps to make this wall more sound-proofed, such as building a staggered stud wall.

Nice plans, celtic!

I like the plans in the order they came...In the last one, I think the fridge and oven placements are not nearly as good...and the 2nd, I don't like the oven/baking placement nearly as well as in the first, so the cook can get something from the stove to oven more easily when necessary. The fridge on the back wall seems better for cook and dining, as well as a straighter (more likely) path from the great room.

Ok, OK...ovens back by the cooktop. Proportions are off as there would be only 2 ft either side of the rangetop. More social island seating. And I'll even throw in your expanded dish storage, Rhome. Fridge placement isn't on the far perimeter though. Compromises, compromises...

...forgotten how much fun these are...

Cmil, hope you can see that you can take different bits of these plans and recombine them depending on your priorities. Some of the elements in play here are:

fridge location?
embedded fridge vs sticking out vs counter depth?
simple vs complex framing?
mondo dish storage?
cooktop and ovens in close proximity?
island size & aisle size?
'lunch counter' (row) island seating vs at an angle?
message center?
size and shape of pantry?
space around cooktop?
cook's sight lines?
visuals from the surrounding rooms?

No plan is optimal on all counts. There is always some degree of compromise and prioritization. This is your kitchen so you get to decide which elements matter most to you.

My two cents is that smooth flow is critical and trumps a lot of other things. I think about emptying/loading the DW, getting a snack, filling drink glasses, taking out trash, bringing in groceries, icing a cake, mixing cookie dough, chatting with guests, chopping veggies, cooking an omelet, grilling a steak, feeding the dog and supervising homework. Then I think of that happening all at once! Seriously.
Also it helps to walk through having larger gatherings: hosting Thanksgiving and/or having a big party.

If you can see all that happening with minimal frustration and collisions, you'll have a really functional plan.

Rhome is likeing this more

I get that the fridge is nearer prep and more acessible to dining room. And the dedicated baking center is great. BUT I'm seeing those snackers getting in the way of the cook when grazing. They'll end up doing stuff on the island. And I'd like more room at the cooktop (there's only 2 ft either side), and I prefer the simpler framing of the pantry and linen. So I'd vote for one of the two before this one.

I notice that in all of these the pantry uses the 2'x4' dead space. Are you sure you can use that? Is it a support pillar or a service shaft (ducts, pipes, etc.)?

Before making a particular plan I'd be really sure about that!

I like everyone's options here (CelticMoon, RHome410, DesertSteph, BmorePanic)...the final call is really up to you and should be based on how you use your kitchen on a daily basis. Like Bmorepanic said, think about how you & your family work in the kitchen and what goes on in and around it at the same time.

BTW...if that 2'4" chase cannot be used, the pantries can still be done, they'll just be smaller. Probably the best one, then, would be the corner pantry option with maybe taking a foot or so off the "Baking Center" to add another foot of storage in the pantry. Just MHO!

Keep us posted and good luck!

I don't like this pantry....How did it end up taking so much room on the stove wall? Oh, I see that the others didn't have reasonable doors, which I hadn't noticed. I am not a particular fan of diagonal corner pantries, and was thinking of a sleeker pantry more like Vicnsb's that is similar to a blind corner cabinet for which the door would be on the baking wall. I think you may have usurped a return air duct or other mechanical space that shows as an X in the box on the houseplan?

My whole point of having the fridge at that end is to keep people out of the work zone, since I see people coming into the kitchen at that wide opening on the top end. I'd get rid of the end seat so that can be a snack prep area near the fridge. I prefer the first plan's cleanup area that is not so long, so that the seating at the island isn't in the middle of things. --I could definitely see it that length without any seating at the island since there's a bar and a dining space so close. As I said before, I'm a selfish cook...I like the fridge handy to the stove, the island for workspace, and don't want sitters in my way. :-)

I can see the benefits of having pantry/fridge/mw areas together, if I could be assured people would come in that end of the kitchen, of which I'm not convinced...But I suppose if they came through the sink aisle....
OK, I can like today's 14:20 plan... and here are some adjustments/suggestions I might consider if it were mine. Not necessarily better, just different, and showing the pantry I was describing:

I guess we all had the same thought about that chase! :-) It took me so long to draw and upload plans, I was a few posts behind.

Oops. I was going with the OP describing the 2'4" area as "wasted space"...could well be a ductwork chase.

I'm liking that last one Rhome did. I always like the option to use a standard depth (cheaper) fridge, but not have it stick out. Pantry is then a bit deeper also - and can extend into the 2'4' space if it is in fact empty.

And I confess that I too am totally "selfish" about my work space. I don't mind people walking by, especially with generous aisles and alternate routes. It's what they do next that bugs me: dishing ice cream, or making a sandwich or whatever in my workspace. My Island. Mine. All mine.

Hence placing the fridge so that other counters are available for non-cook things - filling glasses, making snacks, etc.

Perhaps Cmill has a more, er, generous nature?

Thank you all so much for all of the great feedback and suggestions.

First, I asked my husband about the 2x4" space and it is dead space. Its not a support pillar or service shaft.
Here's what I think - celtics very first layout posted 1/25 is a great start. Lots of potential. My thoughts and changes on that. The layout is great and everything seems to flow. If I left the sink on the wall overlooking the GR then I'd like to see cabinets to the right of the sink for storing dishes/glasses and possibly a silverware drawer. The center island - probably would prefer that guest/family sit on the outside perimeter of the kitchen as to not be in the way, however, placing the 3 stools along the one side will allow someone to be on the other cooking/prepping so they'd be somewhat out the way. Only downside to this is if I were washing dishes my back would then be to them, however, I can see a pattern of first cooking/prepping then eating in the dining area then some coming back in the kitchen to cleanup and others go into the GR to watch T.V. so the positive to that is someone washing dishes can talk to those in the GR.

I do not like the idea of moving the kitchen into the current dining room. I wouldnt want to walk through the DR to get to the kitchen when bringing in groceries and we wouldnt use the DR as a formal DR. I like the idea of being able to look out a window but where the kitchen is now we have lots of windows to look out.

Agree with rhome410s comment posted at 13:56 and 17:02. That order would be my preference and the points are valid and celtic agree completely that flow is critical. Heres what I think about the first plan I like the fridge where it is because it is in the flow of traffic from the GR and DR. That fridge could possibly be swapped with the oven. If the fridge was moved over there then the flow of traffic could either come down the hall and into the kitchen or from the GR thru the sink/island area and then to the fridge. Either of those options would work. If the island stays as is, I would move the prep sink down to the other end that way the end of the island closest towards the DR could be used for making sandwiches/filling drinks, etc. if left in that space or setting finger foods out for grazing. I assume MW is for microwave, correct? If we dont end up doing Double Ovens then Ill place the MW above one oven in the wall, otherwise maybe under the island or... Ill find some place for it. What is "mondo dish storage"? I assume dish storage, correct? :>) If we go with the first layout then you could use the end of the island for baking prep too. In some of the post it looks like the pantry got really big. Id vote on having a standard depth fridge vs. one that is going to stick out. So, I guess bottom line is ideally getting people on the outskirts of the kitchen is best except for when you want them to help or if they are just passing through. Celtic you mentioned starting over and turning the island 90 degrees. Whats your thought/idea on possible layout doing that? Seems as though most of my space is in the length of that space so it seems to make sense to turn the island and open that space. Can someone actually draw these on my plans and give me actual dimensions so my builder can make the changes?
Rhome410 who is vicnsbs plan that you are referring to?
I like the idea of moving the MB door down some to give it more privacy and I like the new storage closet. Wouldn't mind it going straight into the bathroom either, as celtic mentioned. Would that give me a little larger closet? Either of those options would work.

Hope I didn't miss anything. That was a lot to get through. :>)

My husband and I have sold our home, purchased some land, and moved back out into "the country", so we are in the process of designing a house. I am currently working on a design layout for my kitchen, and it's not a process that goes quickly. A beautiful, but totally functional, kitchen is my first priority. This does not mean it has to cost a fortune.

There are many things I have learned over the years, and that is I absolutely do not want to spend all my time walking through and around vast amount of space to gather what I need in order to cook. My last kitchen was gorgeous, but a long hike from the stove to the sink. Not fun with a pot of boiling water or heavy cast iron cookware.

The best designed kitchen will have the stove, sink, and refrigerator in a work triangle, without huge amounts of mileage between them. You want to be able to gather, prep, cook, and clean up easily. Make sure there is enough counter space between them to work on, or to set grocery bags near the refrigerator. A pantry for essential ingredients and staples located near your food prep area is very handy. I had one for that purpose in one of my kitchens and it was nice. This time I also want one near my stove for some of my cookware. They are so easy to get things in and out of.

I am seriously considering extending the counter near the sink as a bake and dough work center, with a nice large window over it all, and forgetting the whole island thing. The concept of an island is nice, but for me personally feels like an obstacle in my way. I also do not find the high type of chairs comfortable to sit on.

My kitchen will be either an L shaped or U shaped design, and we've decided to have the kitchen large enough to put our kitchen table back into the kitchen. I'm done with carting dishes, glasses and silverware 20 feet from my work area to set the table. Ditto with the clean up. Leaves time and energy for a nice after dinner walk, and makes cooking more enjoyable.

It would be worth giving your kitchen a great deal of thought at this stage of construction, even if it causes a delay. It will save you much unhappiness with your home later on. What you need to do is a mental visualization as to how you would perform each kitchen duty. Walk your mind through each and every step. Write it down if need be. Design your kitchen around that. It's easy to get swayed by pretty kitchen displays in design centers and not end up with what really works. After you get the kitchen layout exactly like you want it, THEN look at countertop materials, etc.

Sandy

Vicnsb had a pantry like I drew for you in my plans...where it opens on one side of the room and has a section that tucks back behind the adjacent run of cabinets.

I think the 'mondo dish storage' was in response to my comment about Celticmoon's first plan that I would want it to have some 'great dish storage.' :-)

I'm going to start with I don't like this nearly as well as celtic's last one.

We found out from our "guy test" of something like vic's pantry that, as vic herself said, it is very small. If you want to have any ability to have something that can be used in the pantry (we wanted a micro, but also a toaster or blender), 4 x 3 on the inside would be the minimum approved guy size. It's a little perverted looking in this drawing because I'd need the exact ref size - the border wall of the pantry can't exceed the body size of the ref.

In some respects, I like the arrow shaped island. Would maybe add a bar sink! But over all, I feel the other orientation is better.

{{gwi:1633018}}

Bmore, could there be a flip up counter section in the eating bar so you could get into the center of the island to work? A whole new secondary prep option. ;-D

I saw an island about this size once. There was a dog house in that center area with a little tiny arched doorway for the dog. I don't know how they ever thought they'd clean it out, or how they'd reach the center of the island to clean it either, but I'm quite sure these people didn't do their own cleaning, so it wasn't an issue to them.

To get back on topic and be serious. I can see the point about the pantry and that little-bit-larger pantry should fit in any of the plans without a fridge or oven on the back wall.

Cmill,

Do you still need the changes done by tomorrow (Friday)?

RE: the fridge, a standard depth fridge will stick out quite a bit. There may be one in your kitchen right now. Resolving that issue of the fridge sticking out is one of those things that makes a kitchen look SOOOOO much better.

There are fortunately a number of fridge fixes:
-If the walls are in, you can use a counter depth or built in fridge, but they are much more expensive and smaller inside because of the shallower depth.
-You can frame the kitchen walls to have a deeper recess at the place on the wall where the fridge goes. In a couple of drawings here the space is taken from the master linen closet area.
-You can design the counter run where the fridge goes to be deeper, like 30 inches instead of 24. You can still use stock base cabinets installed 6 inches forward with dead space behind. The resulting deeper counter areas can be nice, especially for small counter appliances, mixer, toaster, etc. Or for a deeper pantry adjacent.
-You can make the fridge area deeper, frame the fridge with a cabinet box, maybe adjacent pantry or pullout, then continue the run dropped back to regular depth.

The point with any of these is to embed the fridge in a plane of cabinet faces or frames, so it isn't sticking out
6 inches into the room. Makes a huge difference.

Have you decided on the fridge placement? Understand that if you put it top left (='back wall' from the family room sight line), it will have to either stick out, be counter depth, or require reworking the linen closet area. And if you also want the corner pantry at the other end of that run, the range work area will be about 2 ft either side of the cooktop. Acceptable but not spacious.

The alternative option is placing the fridge on a deep 30" run that backs the stairs. Allows for a deeper pantry and more space around the cooktop.

And where do you want the ovens and MW?

A year or so ago, I visited a lovely, large country home with a continent for an island. Seriously, it had to be 8 x 8. I didn't ask but I couldn't help wondering how on earth she cleaned the middle of the island. Long handled window squeegee? Don a terry cloth robe, soap up, climb on the counter and slide around like a giant human dishrag? I wouldn't ever want an island so large that I couldn't easily reach the center of it to clean it.

So while I like the island design bmorepanic came up with (very creative!), I'd want to make sure it didn't prove to be a bear to clean.

It sounds as if you're giving a lot of thought to the location of the fridge, which is good. That will most likely bring people in and out of a kitchen so keeping it at the edge of the space means keeping people out from under foot. But don't forget to think about carrying hot things out of the oven to the DR. My wall ovens are set up so it's an easy shot to DR or to kitchen table and I would not like them any farther away. If you decide to put the fridge on the pantry wall, you could add a beverage fridge where it's a easy grab for a drink from DR or GR. Just another thing to ponder on as you sift through priorities.

A child's playhouse did cross my mind :)

Sandy I really appreciate your input. Its a difficult decision to decide because the problem is that I need to think about how I would use our layout in the long run, however, with just me and my husband I can only dream of how I would like to use it when we extend our family. I think about when I visit our family and friends houses and things they complain about their kitchen that Id like to try not to make those mistakes on mine, however, I have to realize that Im going to have to compromise somewhere because I know I just wont be able to have everything I want. I agree that it doesnt make sense to have to walk around a huge kitchen just to get what I need. It should be in a triangle setting. Question what is "staples located near prep area?" Agree that the concept of an island is nice and partly because of the fact that it is a larger surface area that I can work on that doesnt have a counter overhead to get in the way and two that guest/family can sit there and talk to me while Im cooking/baking. Im comfortable with leaving our dining area separate from our kitchen area.
All I cant even tell you how I really use my kitchen. I currently rent an apartment with a 10x10 kitchen so anything with more storage and space is definitely a plus. I do like the fact that the fridge, sink and stove are in close proximity. I dont think about the luxury of having the sink so close until others mentioned walking halfway across the kitchen just to dump a pot of boiling water or because I am a germ-a-phobic and constantly was my hands after everything I touch. I tend to like to have things more in hands reach. My husband and I are a very casual family and enjoy large social settings and gatherings vs. quiet, intimate, more formal dinners. Im not a gourmet chef, but more like a 30 minute cook. I do like to quick and bake when I have the time and I enjoy my family being in the kitchen with me not in the way, but on the outside talking to me while Im doing stuff.

Bmore not quite sure I understand your post, but maybe the point you are getting at is that I shouldnt compromise a small pantry and it should be large enough for an average guy to walk in? Agree. I dont plan to store the micro or toaster in the pantry. Blender? Maybe, along with the Crockpot and other large pots that dont get used on a daily basis. Im not sure of the exact fridge size; however, ones I have been eyeing are the double door fridge on top with freezer bottom. Otherwise, just the standard freezer on top and fridge on bottom. I hate the side by side fridge and freezer. The freezer in that setup has no space at all for large items like a turkey and you couldnt fit a platter or pizza box in the fridge. Interesting layout! Not quite sure Im sold on the island layout. What is the space in the middle? Open extra space?

Celtic Would like changes done as early as possible this weekend. Ive discussed with my husband and we briefly looked over it and will make final decisions this weekend. I believe theyll start framing this week. I know it is fast and I probably should have given more thought to the kitchen, but really, Ill just be glad to get into the house. Whatever we end up doing Ill make it work and Im sure I will love it. I will tell you that I definitely think I like the idea that the master bedroom is secluded. Before I posted our plan on this forum I mentioned that if I could change that I would have kept it on the side where the garage is but had the entrance to it off the hallway vs. the kitchen so giving it a longer entrance to the MB door is nice. Im not quite sure I understand the difference between all of the fridge ideas but I would prefer that it not stick out far. Do you have pictures of examples? We only have the basement walls poured and no framing has begun so I can definitely make the change to how I want the fridge. I dont like putting cabinet facing on the fridge though to look like it blends in. My preference would be to either place it in the run from the GR or over where the ovens are. Id keep the oven somewhat close to the stove. The oven doesnt get used as often unless I am baking. If it is close to the island I can use the island to set anything hot on that comes out the oven until I move it to the table, however, Id prefer most often to eat buffet style instead of meals on the table. If we do not end up doing a DO then I would have that counter space and cabinet space and depending on where we put the MW. Not sure where I want it yet. If we do a standard oven then it will probably go above, DO maybe on the island or above some counter or single oven above the oven. Im concerned now with the distance of the sink. If we ended up doing a wet bar on the island then it may not matter because I could use that to empty hot water, but if we dont then the distance may be too far. Seems like I have a lot of kitchen that I can definitely make something work. What other layouts do you have in mind that might work? One thing I noticed with changing the kitchen is losing so much cabinet space. How can I maximize that? Storage around the island too? If we change the bedroom entrance, can the WIC be made a little longer?

Lisa thats a huge island and maybe the one that is drawn on our plan is a little too large. Either Ill have people sitting up to it having a beer and chatting/my husband and I eating, or one of us preparing something (chopping veggies, making cookies, mixing mashed potatoes, etc.) It doesnt have to be extremely large.

I really appreciate all of the advice and thoughts to ponder. I dont think I would have ever really taken the time to think about this. I would have just made it work.

I'm suspecting that you didn't know that the circle in the island drawn by Celtic, and that I left in my versions of her plan, is meant to represent a prep sink. So you have it to do your prep, and pot filling and draining, while the main sink is primarily for dirty dishes and maybe another worker. We would never put the island between you at the stove and the only sink...A big no-no for us! :-)

Ha! Thanks rhome. Which post was that?

Do you mean which post had the prep sink? All of Celticmoon's plans have a prep sink in the island. It's shown as a rectangle with small line representing the faucet in the first couple near the top of this thread. Then the rest of hers, as well as my versions of her plan, all have the circle to represent a sink...Always on the end of the island nearest the fridge, so it's handy when you want to get veggies from the fridge to wash and prep them for cooking.

Thanks! I realized it after I sent my message, but couldn't do a follow-up post to my own without changing the subject. ugh... decisions.

All of the island plans have a prep sink in the island. And like Rhome says, that is the sink for prep and cooking (and washing your hands as you do both!) The other sink, further out, is for clean up, but is also available for helpers to fill glasses, wash their hands, etc and not get in the way of your work.

The fridge, well, either it will stick out, or it won't. Regardless of the way it is done (to not stick out), it wlll look the same in the end: fridge lined up with what is next to it rather then sticking way out. The back of it might be tucked in a wall cubby, or the cabinets next to it sit forward, or it might be a 'counter depth' ($pecial $hallow) fridge - all look the same from the front. I'm not sure how better to explain it...

I tried to rotate the island but it didn't work so well.

One twist we didn't do is put the pantry on the bottom right and move the kitchen doorway a foot or two closer to the basement stairs. That would give you an unbroken "L" with plenty of counter space for cooking and baking. I can draw that tomorrow if you want to see that.

Kitchens are really really complicated. You are trying to digest a whole bunch of information quickly, and that can be overwhelming for sure. You are getting it though. Your description of cleanup and realization that you'd still be in contact with the stuffed guests in the LR was spot on!

Lots to think about. Sleep on it.

I think I remember that somewhere in one of your recent posts you said you wanted a 'regular' fridge instead of 'one that will stick out.' If I'm remembering right, this might help: Actually a standard fridge is deeper than 24", so will stick out. If you want one that doesn't, you want a 'counter depth.' Even then, unless it's a built-in, it will stick out a little (just the thickness of the doors), but not bad.

If I misunderstood or Celtic already covered this...ignore me! :-)

Refrigerators in 30 seconds

F - If using side panels - they have a depth not to exceed the depth of the body. If the panel has a strip moulding on the front - that usually covers the required side air clearance.
G - width with the doors open. This matters most with a wall or other obstacle to the side - sometimes, even just a cabinet where the ref is close to the corner.

H - Depth with Freezer open. Strangely, a lot of mfg don't tell you this, but with a french door, knowing this is helpful is setting the depth of the aisle in front of the ref.

I - Built-in look tactic or for smaller aisles. Reduce the size of the ref by reducing the depth of the body. Range of depths for French doors refs is 25" to 33" for "depth without handles". The larger end has 25 to 28 cu ft. The smallest is a 42" actual built in for a boodle of bucks. Things that are considered "counter depth" are anywhere up to about 30" deep with handles. Regular is anything up to 36" deep. Be aware that most counter depth refs are TALL. If you are planning a cabinet over the ref, leave a small bit of clearance over the top of the ref for the hinges and for leveling the ref when planning the cabinet size.

J - built-in look strategy. Increase the depth of the side panels and the cabinets. A normal cabinet plus counter is around 25-26" deep, but you can make it any depth you want. If the depth of the counter matches the depth of the ref body (plus the required air space), then the ref won't appear to stick out because it lines up with the front of the cabinets.

Depending on the ref and the kitchen, some need space to one or both sides to be able to properly operate the doors. Generally, it's only a concern if the object sticks out further than the depth of the cabinet. So if you plan to put the ref right next to a wall - like a corner pantry - you either can't do it at all or can do it with some special considerations.

If the ref can be used with the door open at 90 degrees AND the door doesn't clearance to the side AND the handles won't bump the wall, you can safely "do it anyway" and move the ref out if you want to clean the drawers. It's best if this ref has a wider aisle in front of it, tho.

If the wall has an opening in it so the ref door can swing into the opening instead, you're ok too.

Last, always check all those door swings. The ref doors should not swing in front of an oven or into any other nearby object. The doors on adjoining cabinets should not swing into the ref. If the ref is near a corner, check that all of the cabinets around the corner can be opened without running into the ref.

Celtic yes, please draw the kitchen with the pantry at the bottom right. Ive seen some plans with the pantry there and at one point thought about putting the pantry there since the space is about 3. Current pantry is 35" so adding a few more inches would give me the same size. What about then turning the island, centering it and putting the sink on it looking out into the DR with seats on the other side, but allowing enough space on the sides for isles. Hmm just a thought. Im guessing because I have 18 across the length if doing an island the best position for it is turned opposite what I currently have it. There isnt much space to get around as it currently is with only 13. Im not sure what other layouts would work and I dont have to have an island (or a huge one at that) because Ive lived without it already, but I think about a nice place for someone to sit and chat (you on the other side), kids doing homework while youre in the kitchen cooking, and a larger space to prep then what I currently have. Now when making a meal or baking I pull everything out and set it on the counter beside the stove and do all my chopping or mixing there. It is nice to have the prep sink nearby for washing of veggies or rewashing a utensil that you need to reuse. Anyway, the fridge the one in our place sticks out about 5" or so from the counter with no built-ins around it. Ill try to pull some pics today and post of what Im thinking we are describing. Not difficult, but when you dont use these terms everyday or have seen it, I have to go by pictures. :>) Plus, Im not about spending $$$$ just to get a $pecial $hallow fridge.

Bmore thanks for the drawing and interpretation. Really helped.

Have a great one! Ill post some pics this evening.

Here you go. Works pretty well actually. The wall changes are in hot pink. You loose depth in the master bath linen, but gain another shallow storage closet space in the master hall. If that chase is open by the master sink, try to access some of it it from the vanity area - great storage cubby for hairdryer, towels, etc.

This plan would work well. Had to lengthen the cleanup run to have enough wall for dish storage. Note that the dishes & silverware can live their whole lives going between cupboard, counter for serving, table, sink, DW, and back to cupboard- all in that one area without ever going near your work space. I love that efficiency and organization.

My only concern is the fridge placement. I agree it is out of the way in that people can get to it without coming in your work zone. But then what? Say they make a sandwich or dish up ice cream. They take stuff out and put it...either on the island or next to the cooktop, encroaching on your your work space a bit. They will then likely need a plate or bowl or glass or whatever. They might need the MW. I am concerned they will come through your work area to get to the MW or dishes.

So, the fridge being on the perimeter solves people walking to the fridge, I don't know that it solves what happens after they get something out of the fridge.

So I'll try it the other way with the ovens and fridge flipped.

OK, here it is with the ovens and fridge flipped. Island needs to give over 6 inches to the deeper fridge run so it won't stick out. You get back the deep linen closet in the master.

The fridge is not on the edge so traffic WILL come into the kitchen. BUT some may use the bottom doorway - no problem there. And I think most traffic will naturally tend to come down the wider (=more inviting) right side of the island. And family room traffic will likely take a route around the shorter cleanup run and beeline for the fridge rather than go the long way around the island through your work space. Makes sense to me. The key here is that once they ARE at the fridge, they can easily access water, glasses, dishes, MW etc without ever coming in your work space. Unlike with the fridge at the top. And I moved a stool to give a snacker island workspace.

"FRIDAY #2":

The only issues are that the prep sink and cooktop are back to back, so two cooks might bump butts. And I do miss the nice visual from the family room a couple drafts ago: island, cooktop and hood lined up. Moving the ovens next to the fridge regains that visual, so here is a tweak:

FRIDAY# 3

I'm thinking this is my favorite.

If we rotate the work island, it can only be about 5 feet wide (2'counter+4'aisle+5'island+4'aisle+2'counter = 17 feet). Maybe 6ft wide if you switch to narrower aisles and forget any extra wide aisle for seating or traffic routing. Unless you give up the cleanup run entirely.

And there would be a LOT of empy space above that island toward the DR. If you try to squeeze in another run across the top there for seating, your work island shrinks to 2ft deep, your aisles shrink to 3ft, and after all that the seaters still will have their butts in the hallway. Kinda back where you started.

The thing is, if you are going to have two aisles and 3 counter runs, you need a lot of distance to span all that. That's why we are using the longer left-to-right dimension to park two aisles. I know it seems logical that the long island should go parallel to the longer dimension of the room, but oddly, it doesn't work best like that here.

Ooooh, I really liking Friday #2 and #3! Great job, celticmoom! I think Friday #2 has a slight lead over #3 because I prefer separation of oven and fridge (spreads kitchen traffic out more) even though I do like the visual created by #3.

As a mom of teen boys, I can tell you that the busiest aisle is our house is the one that leads from the hallway to the pantry, fridge and MW. When they have friends over, it's like rush hour in our kitchen. Access to these areas in my kitchen is very similar to what celticmoon has drawn in the above two plans. I especially like that she put dishes and glassware are within easy reach for snackers, too. When we remodel, dishes and glasses will move closer to the snack center and the cooktop will move father away so snackers won't need to cross through my work zone to get those items.

One other plus with having the fridge near the pantry is that it requires fewer steps to put groceries away and to grab the items you need to prepare a meal.

I will have to disagree with my friend, Lisa, which doesn't happen too often, as I really don't like the orientation of the stove to the island in Friday #2 (and #1). #3 fixes that, though, so I'm leaning toward that one of the latest plans. Still not sure whether I like that as much as with the pantry in the left corner...Torn, because this might offer more for the baking area.

I think I prefer the pantry back in the corner with a message ctr and dishes on the right as one enters, instead of the pantry wall. JMO

Cmill,

I meant to respond to something you said early today about space and aisles: There isnt much space to get around as it [the island] currently is with only 13 . Actually 13, or 13'4" in your case is pretty much an ideal size for this kind of layout orientation.

Your aisles are 4'0" at the left and bottom, and 5'4" in the wide main passage aisle behind the stools. Those are generous, and at the upper end of recommended aisle widths (yes, they can get TOO wide). The most common width may well be 3'6", certainly sometimes more and most certainly sometimes less. And we agonize a lot around aisles that are at or just over 3'0", especially when there are issues like seating, traffic or appliance doors.

There are plenty of threads on aisles widths, and I am not meaning to trigger a discussion - I have a 3'3" myself and my SIL squeaked by with less in the main traffic path with 4 kids. I just wanted to tell you that your aisles in these plans are very, very generous. You have absolutely NO worries on space to get around as it currently is .

Lucky you! Trust me on this, most of us would love to have those aisles.

celtic - below are pictures of fridge placements that helped me try to figure out what different ones would look like. I have to say I do not like that fridge B and C stick out as far as they do. Fridge D gives me an idea from a side view at how far it could stick out (just the doors). I like the design of A. Is that the style you are referring to that is $$$. Seems most fridges are enclosed by cabinetry. Probably standard. Layout D was the layout that kind of inspired my kitchen somewhat. They have the fridge and oven side by side and when seen together it actually looks nice. Another option if there is space is just to move the oven down some so that there is usable counter space in between the two.

I like all of the new layouts. Each one as youve said has something that you might dislike about it. #3 probably is the best one because of the sight lines, however, I have to agree with Lisa_a in that I like the #3 because of the sight lines, but like the separation of the oven and fridge in 2. I have to admit too that I agree with rhome and that is I liked the pantry location better in the first one because Id like to use that other space as a message center, however, it looks like I gain a lot more cabinet space back in the kitchen when putting the pantry by the sink. These now are just compromises Ill have to make. One of the OP said that having the fridge near the pantry will make it easier to put groceries away, plus where the fridge is at now (new plans) is directly down the hall from the two bedrooms if kids were playing in there. DH is home now so hopefully tomorrow morning we can digest all of this and come to a decision. I guess bottom line is that leaving our kitchen as is on our current plan will create no problems getting around the island because I have lots of space, correct? However, the functionality of the layout isnt ideal (pantry outside of kitchen, no real place for guest to sit on the outside perimeter of the kitchen or is there?). I think the pantry was the only real eyesore there, correct? I watched something on HGTV tonight and the couple wanted to find a home without an island in the kitchen because in her previous house it just got in her familys way. All this talk about islands whats everyone elses view? Love it or hate it? I find that without it I may have too much extra wasted space in the middle.

Couple of things I want to make sure I address looks like youre adding a slight wall in the dining room area. Is that just preference because it will look better, or what is the reason for that? I do like that by changing the kitchen I get a private MB entrance and a new shallow storage area. Not sure what Ill use that for yet, but you can never have enough storage space. Would have been the perfect size for a message center, just wrong location. The new MB entrance is that going into old hallway space with closet straight ahead? Can that MB closet be extended and hallway reduced? Vanity storage by MB sink should be a problem. That space should open up and be usable once I reduce down the shower size.
Now can you recommend someone who can redraw this out on my plan with dimensions?

Thanks to all as always for all your help. Ill give you an update after I talk to DH.

Fridge A{{gwi:1633030}}

Fridge B
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Fridge C
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Fridge D
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Kitchen layout
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The pantry by the sink gives you more cabinets in the working part of the kitchen, but maybe more than you need, while it detracts from your dish storage.

Islands are in the way if they're in between the sink and stove or between the sink or stove and the fridge. In the original plan, the island was a big barrier and majorly in the way...But not the plans Celticmoon has designed you, because of the prep sink in each, and much better use of the overall kitchen space for zones and flow.

Better off without the island? No. An island, in a well-designed layout (again like Celticmoon has drawn), offers a great deal of work surface and allows more workers in the kitchen without getting in each others' way. The traffic flows around it, so each can access the things they need without walking all over and around other people. People can flow into and out of the kitchen and its different areas around the island...It directs traffic. It's a great place to roll out a big batch of cinnamon roll dough, or dough for Christmas cookies with the kids surrounding the island to help.

If you took out the island, you'd be back to prepping food over dirty dishes in the main sink, and it'd be a LONG haul to carry washed veggies from sink to stove, or to fill and empty pots.

bottom line is that leaving our kitchen as is on our current plan will create no problems getting around the island because I have lots of space, correct?
Wrong! Some of those aisles are OK in width, just OK not great, but the aisle at the overhang in the original blueprint is way too narrow. More significantly, the appliance and sink placement will have you running laps around that island endlessly. My prediction is that if you build that kitchen you will feel just like your friends who want to find a home without an island in the kitchen because in her previous house it just got in her familys way.

Seriously. That original design would be very dysfunctional and a real shame, because you have the space and the opportunity to make a really terrific kitchen there. One that will be pleasure to work in. One that will help sell your home when you move on. Truth, I would jump to buy a house with ANY of the kitchen designs we are kicking around on this thread, but I would pass on the one in your original blueprint.

RE: fridges, B and C aren't the worst. Some fridges stick out far more, and that is what we are trying to avoid. And look again at A. If the cabinets to the left lined up with the frame around the fridge, it could look even better.

RE: the DR wall, those bits of wall just define the space and allow a different color paint in the DR. (In my house now the dining, great room, entry, and hall have no defined edges so I'm forced to continue the same paint color throughout. I regret that.)

RE: drafting the building plan, I'm afraid that is above my pay grade. Does the bulder's cabinet supplier have a design service? Even if you pay for drafting changes, I think you will come out way ahead with any of these plans, because they have many fewer cabinets (= at least several thousand dollars savings). Builder's kitchens too often wrap rooms in cabinets without thoughful design. Expensive, unnecessary and unfortunate.

Good luck refining your plan over the weekend.

"A" would have issues opening the doors. Both doors would bang the side panel nearly every time opened. Even if it were a built-in (and it's not) it would still hit the right side wall a couple of times per day.

The others - "B" and "C" refs both needed increased size side panels at a minimum. "B" also has the wrong size over the ref cabinet - the hinges hit the filler. "C" is a normal depth ref that would look better if the entire wall was deeper or the ref was recessed into the wall a bit.

Would you try the cooktop in the corner? You could push the ref and the oven over towards the dining room wall and still have really good storage available for prep stuff.

Boy this is a busy forum! I had to search hard to find my post. Sorry there has been such a delay in getting back. We have lots of snow in our area right now so our building progress is at a halt which is buying me some time on trying to decide on the kitchen layout. I'm not sure how my links got deleted and am working on getting them back.

First, DH and I appreciate all of the advice given thus far. We have had some time to review over the layout options. I must say that I definitely will bring the pantry into the kitchen and make the hallway to the MB a private entrance. Im still not quite sold on the idea of the sink being too far away from the cook top especially because I dont think DH is sold on the idea of the prep sink. A few thoughts? I think I like the pantry better in the left corner even though it may be smaller and may give me less cabinet space, but Im not opposed to having it in the other corner either. What about moving the sink onto the island with a raised bar area from the dining area around to the area in front of the great room and then taking that half wall out and putting back in the message center or a butlers pantry or what about extending the half wall down into an L shape or some other slight turn and putting the sink on the L part and then creating an island just for myself. Maybe that might create the same issue as my original plan. Hmmm other options?

Does anyone know if there are any finished kitchen pictures on the forum or is there anyone that can draw a 3-D view?

Here is a repost of kitchen layout. Had to change the title to repost.
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