Btw, here's a photo of a kitchen with a layout somewhat similar to the current one to help you envision things. Thanks! Katie

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Wow, looks like you'll have a great home and kitchen.

I don't know if they are feasible, but I made some changes.

Moved pantry to the office and shifted the stairs and the new office to give the office a window. So you now have a longer range counter. Moved steam oven and the other oven to this counter. I left the MW at the same spot and moved DW and main sink next to it and added a prep sink on the island. I have the MW in a tall cab, so plates/glasses can go there. I know you prep and clean at the same time and like the to have cleanup in the island since you mostly eat there, but as kids (and you) grow older, you may have/enjoy helpers in the kitchen. Having prep and cleanup at different spots will enable more people to work in the kitchen.

With all those kids, and counting, I recommend you seriously consider Sena's 2 sink version and put a DW on each side of the clean up sink. Your pantry is HUGE, so losing a cabinet space would be fine. I understand why you want the curved island top, but I wonder about the lost cabinet opportunity it creates. You could have some amazing dish drawers there for table setting. With the kitchen table so close, I imagine some of the kids will want to sit there as well.

Sena's set up is almost my dream kitchen.....

Sena, I'm sold on putting a second sink at the back windows! And both you and Nightowl make a great point about relocating the DW there too--I had just assumed I'd put the DW in the island, but it could make a lot of sense to get it out of the way of the prep space so kids can empty dishes (which will primarily be stored in drawers since I'm so short on upper cabinets) while I prep meals...having the DW there with plate/cup drawers would also be just as close (if not closer) a location for when setting the table and clearing dishes from the table too--great idea! Sena, what is the reasoning behind moving the sink in the island closer to the tapered end rather than the other end (right now, my thought is to keep the tapered end of the island clear for both eating and so that I have a big landing space directly across from the fridge)?

As for moving the stairs, that would give me a bigger expanse of cabinets along the stove wall (a definitely plus!) by eliminating the second doorway along that wall, unfortunately I don't think it will work with our basement layout (stairs feed out into the sport court below). However, I'm wondering if it's possible to achieve the same goal by creating a single doorway that feeds into both the office and pantry?....hmm.

If you don't mind, I would love either of your opinions about going with two smaller islands over the single large one. Something like an 8'x5' island in the same location where the current one is and then perpendicular to it (extending out from the double ovens), a second 6'x3' island. That would create additional prep space and undercabinet storage (and I would still have a clear view of the homework station), but I don't know if would make the space feel too busy/congested and seating at the central 8x5 island feel too cramped? OR, what if I stick with the one big 12-13' island, but make it a T-shape that could seat 6 people like the ones pictured below (can't decide if it's a great concept that opens up both ends of the island for storage or if I think it's ugly! I could create the space needed for it by bumping my pantry/office walls back a bit)?

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With such a large family you need more sinks and dishwashers. I know you are fine with one DW, but two would function better. I didn't see a sink in your seed room, either. While the kitchen needs two sinks and two dishwashers, I would suggest another sink in the pantry and a wash sink in the seed room. You don't want to carry water to the seed room. You may have one, but I can't see it on the plan. As an alternative thought you could install a second DW in the pantry along with a prep sink. This gives you another prep area. As the kids get older, you can send one into the pantry to help you with prep.

I like the idea of the T-shaped island. Lots of storage. More opportunities to face one another. Linear dining is not optimal. Fewer seams in the countertop material, too.

Looks like a fun project.

Good advice, homechef. I agree that the 2 sinks in the kitchen will be incredibly helpful (I'm going to put a tiny one in the potting room too, but I haven't figured out where to place it yet). You've got me considering a second dishwasher now ...my sis-n-law has two, and it is the ultimate in diffusion of responsibility (kids always avoiding whichever dishwasher is clean and needs emptied!), not to mention constantly running out of silverware, cups, etc. as things pile up across two DW's until warranting the start of a load)...maybe I'll put a DW drawer in the island to expand my washing capacity (though people say they don't wash as well as conventional DW's). Thank you for your thoughts on the T-shape island--I also like being able to face each other while eating (not a fan of ducks-in-a-row diner-style seating at huge islands).

This is another island shape I've considered that allows for a lot of seating and conversation:

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Sena, what is the reasoning behind moving the sink in the island closer to the tapered end rather than the other end (right now, my thought is to keep the tapered end of the island clear for both eating and so that I have a big landing space directly across from the fridge)?

Oh sorry, I was very sleepy when I posted my ideas. I was thinking about 2 things when I placed the sink there, but I got distracted and didn't mention any of them.

1- Thought of using first 4' of the island just for landing and washing (2,5' landing, 1,5' sink) and be able to keep prep space free of unwashed veggies. If my math is correct, moving the sink down further would place it in front of the range top, so I thought 4' was a good stop point.

2- I was actually thinking that the 2 seats should be at the other end, because ... Well, my English is not enough to explain it, but I imagine seats wouldn't be facing each other when you use the narrow end to have seats.

Maybe this drawing can show what I mean.

Wow! What an amazing space!

I have 5 boys 11 and under and another baby due in May, and your set up does look dreamy, especially that walk in pantry and garden room! (and the mud room!!) When I'm not hugely pregnant, I like to start my own plants for our kitchen garden, but finding the space is tricky, and we buy a lot of things in bulk and currently keep much of it in the attic closet off of the master bedroom, which is hardly more convenient that the garage;-).

I just posted my own proposed design for my small space, and I would love your feedback there, too.

If I had the room, I'd definitely go for the second sink, keeping the one in the island for prep. And even though we are quite limited for space, I am seriously considering two dishwashers. Your sister's experience is interesting, especially knowing the propensity of my own children to forget to start the dishwasher, but I had not imagined the possibility of each dishwasher not getting started when full. I was just thinking of the reduced time handwashing all that doesn't fit into the one after dinner, especially having a place for mixing bowls and pots and pans.

I think that the most recent picture you posted looks more suited to conversation than the one in your plan while keeping a similar aesthetic, but I agree with Sena about the facing seats in your currently proposed design. The t is interesting, but I think it would have to be really long to accommodate the number you can in the other options, and it could get tedious to walk around.

With two DW, I was thinking of one for dishes over by the window as Sena01 illustrated. The other would be for prep and pots and pans. I see you using the pots and pans DW and making the kids unload or start the dishes DW. I would place the pots and pans DW on the prep side of the island. And, don't forget to find places for trash. You are going to have lots of space in the pantry for dry, canned and bulk foods, so you should have plenty of room in the kitchen proper for DW, trash and sinks.

Your kitchen is going to be a zone kitchen, not a triangle kitchen. You will have multiple zones or sub triangles. This way you can assign tasks in various zones with less encroachment by others using the kitchen.

One thing I don't see on the plan is a cabinet or closet for mops, vacuums, and cleaning equipment.

I agree that the double island kitchen is difficult to design and use. That's why I am liking your approach. I love pantries. They are a lot of bang for the buck.

Sena, good
thoughts about sink location—I really appreciate the drawing! (I’m curious what
program did you use? I need to find a user-friendly program to tweak with
things instead of penciling in stuff over my draftsman’s plans.) I’m considering flipping the entire island
(i.e., putting the 6’ end across from the window sink and moving the stove wall
back a foot or two to make sure there’s still ample clearance to get out the
back door to the patio).

Homechef, I like
your idea of splitting up the DW’s (one by each sink), rather than flanking the
window sink with DW’s on both sides—definitely agree with the “zone” concept
when there are multiple cooks in the kitchen.
Good call on the broom closet—I need to remember to place one around the
corner in the pantry so it’s out of sight, but still accessible.

Lindsaymarie, you
make a good point about a T-shape island potentially being a bit of an
obstruction to walk around—I’m going to map out the sizing to see if it would eat
up too much floor space. Our spread of kids/ages is very similar (except I have
2 girls, 4 boys)—busy time of life, huh! I look forward to checking out your
plans tonight once my kidlets are asleep (as much as it’s a blessing to be able
to do new build, there’s something to be said for having the constraints of a
remodel to reign in the overwhelming array of options).

See this link for the program I'm using. If you look at "Products" you can see that they have a number of products plus a Trial version. I used the trial version(s) some time ago. If it hasn't changed over time, saving files was disabled in this version, but you can export pictures and save those.

Mine is called Architectural.

T tried several T shaped islands. Fat ones, skinny ones lol!

and just couldn't stop and tried some continents:-))

Thanks for the referral to the home design software, Sena--I'm going to have fun playing! T-shape #2 is my favorite of the 3 T's (and it doesn't require any more floor space than my current--yeah!), but I also like the classic symmetry of the 2nd (78") "continent"--I'm curious if you have a gut preference aesthetically or functionally?

Don't separate the DWs. A few years ago, there was a lot of discussion on this topic and the consensus was that when you separate the two DWs, you end up running back & forth trying to find things that are in them. Yes, you may say, "this DW is for prep dishes and this one is for other dishes", but the reality is that the DWs will have a mix of both. So, keep both DWs next to the cleanup sink (usually one on either side).

BTW...I really like your second pantry plan - the one with the two doors. It's a great way to make it easy to unload groceries as well as access the pantry from the kitchen. I think that's a design element you should keep (and fight for!)

Regarding the island seating...be sure you have at least 24" of linear space per seat and, since your family is tall, I recommend 18" of clear leg/knee space for the seating overhang (if the seating is counter-height). We have a tall family and our 15" overhang only works for my daughter and I. My DH only sits there for breakfast and only b/c I moved the TV so that's where he has to sit to see it in the morning! Prior to that, he never sat at the counter. My son doesn't sit there either. I'm 5'10", my DD is 6', my DH is 6'5", and my DS is 6'7".

If the seating is table-height, I recommend you have 21" of leg/knee space.

Buehl, it's uncanny--just today I came across an old thread about DW's and read a comment you had made about locating them together--I completely agreed with your reasoning, esp as I thought about the logic of them both needing to be proximate to the unloading cupboards/drawers. I'm glad to hear your experience about knee space too--I'm 5'10" as well and was just sitting at our counter-height island, debating whether I could get away with only 12-15" overhang. You've convinced me I shouldn't scrimp and stick with the recommended 18"!

Re. the pantry, what do you think of something like the drawing below where there's just a single entry to the pantry and mom's office from the kitchen? It would still have the doorway from the garage for easy grocery unloading, but I'm really wanting more space along the stove wall so I've been trying to think of a way to consolidate the entry to the pantry and mom's office through a single door (instead of needing separate doorways to both)--that would give me about 3' more along the stove wall so I could have the fridge at one end, and then at the other end (for symmetry) either double ovens OR I could have an appliance garage (for my mixer and blender, both of which I had planned to keep in the pantry, but I use them so frequently that it'd be really convenient to have a "pass-through" appliance garage so that I can use them in the pantry and also have them accessible from the main kitchen) with an upper cabinet above for all the oils/sauces/etc that I use when cooking at the stove and need quick access to. The downside of this option (besides cutting into my office space) is making the pantry feel less "connected" to the kitchen. Instead of a doorway that flows directly into the pantry and it being visible from the kitchen (I'm sure I'd leave the pantry pocket door open so that it's visible 95% of the time), you'd have to hook the corner to access it and it would be completely out of sight lines from the kitchen. Thoughts about that trade-off?

I actually like the pantry/office/garden room placement better in this last plan mainly because I would like the office being off the garden room and the quicker access to outside. I could see myself sitting there on a nice day, enjoying the view from the office window, smelling my plants, getting up now and then to tend them, and enjoying the airflow from the open garden room door. It seems it would be more natural to keep an eye on the plants then having to walk through the pantry to check on them. And to show off your plants to friends without them having to walk through the pantry. And how you could pop into the kitchen forum or sort the mail for a few minutes if you were waiting for a pot of water to boil and still feel close to the kitchen and be in the vicinity of the pantry to grab something. Seems like it would be easier to keep an eye on kids paying outside, too. It just seems to be nicely centrally located and like it would make living easier, if that makes sense.

The desk could wrap around and be an L if you think you need more desk space. You have a couple niches that could be floor to ceiling storage for supplies, files, books, etc. Along the shared wall with the pantry and the shared wall with the garden room. It seems like a big enough work space to me but you may need more room so you would need to access that.

And I think your pass-through for appliances is a brilliant idea.

So glad you like the pass-through appliance garage idea, funkycamper!--it dawned on me as I was trying to dream up a way to have access to my two main kitchen tools without having to cart them from the pantry to the kitchen or vice-versa! I definitely agree on office location--that was its original location because not only does it give me natural light and connect me to both the garden room & kitchen (where I'm at 90% of the day), but it also has an overlook into a sunken indoor gym where I imagine all my boys will play a ton during our very long winters. The question is whether having a single doorway to both the office and pantry (i.e., eliminating the direct pantry doorway shown in the plans at the beginning of this thread) makes the pantry seem too out of the way/disconnected from the kitchen....but boy, that extra 36" I'd gain along the stove wall sure would come in handy!

I prefer that arrangement, too. I wasn't originally sure if the office was yours or your husband's, but if it is yours, I definitely think that placement behind the kitchen and off the garden room, all accessible in the same side of the kitchen, is best. I think the trade off is worth it because you don't spend lots of time in a pantry like you do an office, so having the office visual to the kitchen would be more practical in terms of time spent working, checking your e-mail quickly while something is cooking/baking or your big pot of water or stock it coming to a boil, within ear shot of the timer, etc...

In your latest, while the pantry access from the kitchen won't be quite as convenient, I think it will work. I think it's better than the one with only one entrance. Plus, it gives you a shortcut from the garage to the Garden room w/o having to go through the kitchen - which I can almost guarantee that people would do - and that they would cut through the main workspace instead of going around the island. I like it!

I also like the idea of the appliance pass through - which makes me wonder if you could also use it as a staging area for things you want from the pantry to cut down on the amount of running around to the side door with your arms full - you might want to make it another foot or two wider to use it that way.

Will the pass through have a door to hide the appliances from view when not in use (and to hide the interior of the pantry)?

I do have two concerns about the pantry:

• #1 - You don't appear to have much real storage space. Do you really need that sink in there? I'd rather see that wall be all shelving for food storage. If you really want a sink, then put it on the opposite wall. Make the wall that's shared with the kitchen a row of cabs + counter with the sink. It would also make it easier for the pass through idea.

• #2 - The refrigerator & Freezer locations...First, the refrigerator may not open fully b/c it's against the wall and it might not quite fit b/c of the door frame/trim. You will need at least 6" b/w the wall and the refrigerator to allow it open fully - and then it will be opening into the doorway. Second, how wide is that aisle b/w the refrigerator and freezer handles and the opposite wall? You don't want to have a "pinch" point there since you will exiting with items in your hands/arms. I would try for at least 45".

So, how much space do you really need in your office? I know that when I work from home, I rarely take up more space than that needed for a desk to hold my laptop + two large monitors + notebook space (yes, I still take hand-written notes!) You might want to take another foot or so of depth on the "bottom" to add to the pantry to give you a wider aisle.

Inside the pantry, I would add another 6", at least, to the refrigerator/freezer wall so you can put a 6" pullout or similar b/w the refrigerator and wall.

Idea! Why not take 13.5" and...

• From the wall, add 1.5" filler (to clear the door trim)
• Then, 12" pullout for brooms, etc.
• Then, refrigerator & freezer
• Then, shelving
• Finally, eliminate the "Broom" cabinet on the bottom and use that for more cab/counter space in the pantry.

One last comment (for now), don't forget that when you have seating on two adjacent sides that only one seat can use the overhang space at the corner, not two. Two people cannot share overhang space!

Good point, Buehl--I hadn’t even considered that the new
layout would provide an alternate pathway from the garage to the garden room,
but that would be convenient! Yes, the appliance pass-through would be behind a cupboard door when not in use–something like what you
often see in baking center set-ups https://www.pinterest.com/pin/351984527104546450/ (except there would be no wall at the back—it would just continue right on through to the pantry counter): . Because my stove counters will be extra
deep (30”), and can borrow counter space from the pantry on the other side, I think I could recess that cupboard quite a bit and still have a decent amount of usable counter
space in front.

I agree that it would be great to have a solid bank of
storage along that back pantry wall, so I could definitely relocate the sink to the other side or possibly cut it altogether (enow that I’m
going to do 2 sinks in the kitchen, a 3rd one in the pantry might be overkill?).

Fridge and
freezer placement in the pantry….I stuck them there so that I could have the quickest access from
the kitchen, but you’re right that things could be tight with the doors open—if
I do cabinet depth units (I’ll probably do the Frigidaire cabinet depth all
freezer & all fridge next to each other), that leaves me 48” of aisle space
in front of them. Hopefully that will be
enough but I could encroach on my office space a bit (I don’t want to cut in
too far though b/c I want a sewing table with casters on it that I can store
against the wall but pull into the middle of the room when I’m doing projects
and don’t want to working against a wall. GREAT idea about relocating the broom
closet—closer access to the kitchen and will give us needed buffer space for
opening the fridge door (our current house has the fridge against a wall with
same problem, so I can’t believe I didn’t catch that!).

THANK YOU, Sena! Your renderings are so thoughtful and make it so easy to visualize things. I like keeping more room for my office by relocating the fridge/freezer--great suggestion! I really like how the pass-through works in the white kitchen photos. I had initially imagined having baking center cabinetry doors on the kitchen side, but doing it as shown in the photos (pass-through doors flush with the backsplash) actually preserves the entire kitchen-side countertop, and I don't think I'd even need to bother with any sort of doors/pull-out on the pantry side because I don't care so much about hiding things from view in there. Thank you once again!