I generally much prefer an L shape with an island for better flow and more workspace for multiple workers and visitors in the kitchen.

I have one other suggestion, however... If you extend the walls into the cased openings approx 2 1/2 ft at the bottom of the plan as you do on each side of the window seat at the top, it not only gives those openings some symmetry, but gives you the ability to put built-ins or place furniture storage pieces along those end walls of the kitchen and dining room, if you ever need or want to. Of course, that would mean moving the doorway at the right, lower corner of the kitchen up a bit, too...and maybe the French doors, but I don't think that's as big a deal.

This is going to be really nice, Babs. I love the view line down the space and out to the garden, as well as the other details you have planned.

Given the dimensions, and all the dining chairs on the left, I'm thinking your best place for kitchen seating would be along the bottom/passageway side of an island or counter. It'd be very inviting for people strolling in, create an additional function for the passage space (not just to walk through), and--not at all least--the visual and physical stool clutter would be nicely away from the dining and sitting areas.

If you allocated approximately 6' for this important passage, including room to keep the stools out of traffic and also out of the view line here (this last obviously very important), that'd leave 12'+ for the kitchen, U, G, or island. Or even a pair of Ls.

That's the first rough draw of what he did when we first started. I had told him we didn't want all of the island seating facing away from the family spaces so it's been changed since then. :)

Rhome, you can see from the pic bmorepanic posted there are stairs on the other side of that wall and that bottom right door is the traffic flow that comes into the house from the foyer and front part of the house. So that's why we could never increase that darned cased opening on that side. We're in New Orleans on a narrowish lot so there were constraints we had to deal with in dealing with what we could push in on the other side of all of that as well.

The walls are pretty final unless we do a change order at this point. The house plans are stamped. Things have changed a bit since that draft posted by bmorepanic which is why I didn't want to post what I came up with yet. I'm wondering if I'm on the right track. I don't want that second photo to throw people off because that's not a correct layout that we considered. That was what my architect put temporarily, knowing I would be working that out with a KD, etc.

Would it be better if I sketched out what I had thought? I'm on my phone now and can't but can later.

I get that about the stairs..

Well, for an architect's quick design, it's not a bad kitchen. We would like to see what you have in mind.

I will post what I've mocked up Friday. I've been running like mad the past two days! LOL! Thanks for helping out. I can't wait to get some input!!

Here's what I've come up with so far. I want any feedback, criticism, etc. you can give.

I was wondering about possibly flipping the trash and dishwasher to make the drawers on the left 30" instead of 24"?

Also, how will that work with each set of upper cabinets by the range being 36"? How to divide that up?

I want it to be open and airy but want it to flow with the living spaces, etc.

What do you think? Any other ideas?

in the island, the storage area can grow or shrink to suit the other things' need for space. A MW drawer needs more depth than you might think. A fridge drawer may be shorter, and thereby give your storage area more space.

in the island, I would move the 12 inch thingie to the exterior and let it be open shelving; or, I would let it be a 12"w shelf. It's not practical to try to make 12" into a narrow drawer.

I didn't see a reason for a CD fridge. In any case, a CD fridge will need more space than what you have drawn.

davidro1,

Thanks for the perspective on re-doing the 12" thing to the exterior and the microwave drawer to the inside. That opens up more possibilities! I like that.

I'm curious about your thoughts on the CD fridge. We can't recess a FD fridge since there are stairs on the other side. So a FD fridge will stick out. I guess I thought having and even linear plane would work better when people were in the kitchen. I'm looking at the 72" pro-line Kitchenaid which is 35 5/8" wide and says to allow 1/2" on each side. This would mean it needs a little less than 37" of space. We do have room for it to the bottom of that drawing. I don't need to narrow things in the kitchen. I'd love to hear thoughts on the CD fridge in general though, aside from that.

Does everything else look good or too basic? I don't want a ho-hum kitchen. I want it to look lovely! I'm thinking of the upper cabinetry. There will be the hutches to the left of the kitchen by that window seat. Is the kitchen too upper-heavy or is it balanced?

Can I get input from you guys please? This is our build and I want this to be done right. I was hoping to have some responses from the gurus here...I see feedback being given on layouts all the time. Have I provided enough info? I thought I had...I'm here all the time! LOL!

With no kitchen function on the countertop portion of it, I am not sure that the island needs to be so big. What are the plans for the dead storage and the refrigerator drawers that make up its extra depth?

Let's see...

We're a family of four. Our kids are 6 (girl) and 10 (boy) and growing. We have kids and people over often. My thinking was that with a counter depth fridge on the pantry (it's right below that walkway area you can see in that first photo in an inset vestibule area) and cooking side of the kitchen, the fridge drawers could be on the dining side to serve as beverage and snack drawers for people since that will be closer. Also since it's a CD fridge, we could use the extra space. But I'm still wondering about davidro's comments about going with a FD fridge. Thoughts about that?

My thoughts for what goes where (keep in mind this is preliminary):

-Lower drawers next to DW- flatware, kids plates, cups, etc.
-Upper cabinets above- Glasses, plates and bowls
-Super Susan- Crockpot, blender, stockpot, dutch oven, colanders, etc.
-Upper cabinets right of window- coffee, tea stuff, etc
-Lowers on range side-pots, skillets, cutlery ,cooking utensils, potholders, trivets, etc
-Uppers on range side-baking, spices, oils, etc.
-Cookie sheets and bakers either in narrow cabinets or above fridge or a little of both

Island (range side)- large drawer for tupperware, medium for saran wraps, etc. for storing baked or cooked goods
Island (dining side) - that was more overflow storage for our serving stuff. But we do have the hutches and pantry and will have some high storage I suppose if we go to the ceiling??

DH was pretty adamant about having seating to where he could eat at the island if he wanted (or we all could) so he could see the big TV if it was on. I like having two stools on two sides. As for a purpose, it's really more of an eating and gathering spot than anything else. At one point I'd thought of putting the sink there but then changed it to the window.

I guess I'm wondering how to make the WHOLE space work (with the dining side) and be cohesive yet functional yet lovely at the same time. I have worked with a KD and this is our ideas meshed together.

Should I go with a different design altogether? Does the perimeter work? Is the island the issue? Where should I go from here? Also, any thoughts about switching the DW and the trash?

Thanks!

I don't think you're not allowing enough room between your island and table seating with an island that looks to be 66" wide (that's wide). You should have a wider aisle between table and island so that people can walk between diners seated in both locations. I think you'd be better off with a narrower island.

Your drawing is also not accurately showing your space since you haven't included counter overhang on the perimeter cabs (generally 1.5") nor have you included the fridge's true depth. It's 27 3/4" without handles and 30 1/8" with handles (I just looked up the specs). That will eat into your aisle, reducing its width from 45" (guessing based on your drawing) to 39". That may be sufficient for you but I wanted to make sure you knew that your aisles won't really be 45".

Also, your drawing does not show the space required for the width of the fridge cabinet. A 36" fridge is generally housed in a 39" wide cabinet. Those 3" will have to come from somewhere.

To tackle the aisle issues and get you seating on 2 sides of the island, try this:

The 40" aisle between island and fridge is measured from the handles (almost, I went with 30", not 30 1/8" but close enough). Most likely I haven't accurately drawn your range - they usually protrude beyond the counter's edge - but unless it sits really deep, you should still have enough clearance between range and island.

The island cabs facing the fridge/range wall are 27" deep. You'll have a 3" void behind the MW drawer but you'll gain storage with a 24" wide, 27" deep bank of drawers next to it. I added a prep sink to create a nice work triangle between fridge and range. You could also place the prep sink in the 27" deep cab across from the fridge (move the MW drawer down one) and then have a 21" bank of drawers facing the sink, but a prep sink where I drew it next to the fridge drawers would make it handy for someone to grab an apple, wash it and go.

The dimension between island and table is assuming the table is 42" wide and centered in the DR. If it's 48" wide, the aisle between table and island will be 62".

I allowed for a 1" deep decorate panel on the backside of the island. If you want to add decorative panels to the ends (behind fridge drawers and side of MW drawer) you'll need to extend the island 2" and reduce the aisle to 58" to accommodate the 2" of space (1" each) these panels will require. If you want the seating overhang on the 48" wide side to match the seating overhang on the long side, extend the island by 3" and reduce the aisle between island and wall by 3".

You could also do 30" deep cabs facing the fridge/range wall and only a 15.5" seating overhang.

That's really helpful Lisa! I didn't know all of the little intricacies that you added. And I never would have thought to do the single bank of cabinetry with the MW drawer facing the range wall and have the bev. drawers perpendicular to it alone on the one side. That's great that it will work!

The fridge can move down a bit to the right of the range wall a few inches.

So the island seems to be the main issue, huh?

The perimeter...no issues? Is it OK? I guess it's pretty basic.

You're welcome!

The only suggestion about the perimeter that I have at the moment is to combine the 30", 12" and 18" cabs around your range and have a 30" bank of drawers on each side of the range. Now if you've already figured out what's going where in your kitchen and you chose those cab sizes to suit your needs, ignore my suggestion. But most people are happy with large drawers - offers more flexibility - than a bunch of narrower drawers.

Just to clarify - the prep sink cab faces the clean-up sink not the range wall. You can stand and use it on either side of the island but the cab opening faces the clean-up sink.

I'm not sure how to combine those drawers. Right now the range is placed so there's symmetry with the upper cabinets between the fridge and the hidden/dead wall corner. So the visible full-sized upper cabinets on each side of the hood/range are 30" on each side (which is possibly too wide?). I thought, visually, it would be better for the range to be in the middle of those cabinets for the symmetry as it seems to be more important to have upper symmetry than lower symmetry...

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Here's one that's off-centered a little and it just seems a little off somehow:
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Because of the symmetry above (unless someone can come up with a way to do it asymmetrically without it looking off), it throws the bottom off-center, leaving 18 to the left and 42 to the right. Based on that, what do you guys think?

Bump

I was hoping someone else would speak up ...

I like symmetry but I may be willing to give it up for function. For instance, if a lack of symmetry meant that I could store all of my cooking utensils, etc next to the range and not across the room, I'd give up symmetry in a heart beat. Have you figured out what you're storing and where? Do this and see if the base cab sizes are an issue or not.

A near miss, as shown in your last photo, is more of an issue for me but not by a lot. Did you also notice that the range and hood aren't symmetrical with the box beams? But the range and hood are centered in that opening and with the island pendant. I think it's all in what your eye picks out. I don't think larger differences, as you'd have with 18" and 42" uppers, would bother me. But I'm not sure you've got your numbers right. Or maybe I'm not clearly explaining what I mean.

From the corner, you'd have a 36" Susan, which gives you 12" of cabinetry along the range wall. Then you'd have a 30" bank of drawers, which gives you 42" of cabinetry to the left of the range. On the other side of the 36" range, you'd have a 30" bank of drawers and then 39" fridge cab. Subtract 3" from each of the above to allow for a 42" wide hood and add 12" to the left side to meet the uppers on the sink wall and you get 51" to the left and 27" to the right. That's roughly 2 to 1 so your door faces should be roughly the same widths. Your eye won't notice the 3" of difference when divided between multiple door faces so the space should look balanced. Imagine the cabs in the 4th photo being divided into 4 and 2 instead of 3 and 3. Would you be able to tell that the doors to the left were each 3/4" smaller than the doors to the right? Does this help?

OK....

Refrigerator: Does not need a cabinet. All you need is the 36" space for the refrigerator plus 1/8" or so one each side. If you want a "built-in" look, you need a 37.75" space or so...3/4" finished end panels for each side + 36" refrigerator space + 1/8" clearance on each side (b/w ref & end panel for air circulation + "wiggle room") The upper cabinet above the refrigerator is installed b/w the two end panels.

Decorative end panels on the sides of the islands: As long as you account for the 1.5" counter overhang, the finished end panels are immaterial. The 1.5" counter overhang covers the finished end panels (or decorative doors) just like a cabinet with a door. It's when you are measuring for a seating overhang that you have to account for it in the measurements.

Keep in mind that balance and, often, symmetry are not based on cabinet sizes alone. Even if you look strictly at cabinets, if doors are similar-sized or factors of each other (e.g., 18" to 36"), it usually works.

Decorative end panels on the sides of the islands: As long as you account for the 1.5" counter overhang, the finished end panels are immaterial.

Just to clarify, I was talking about decorative panels in the seating overhang area, not the 1.5" counter overhang space. If you add decorate panels in the seating overhang, you reduce the seating overhang by an 1" or thereabouts. To make up for that, you need to increase the overhang, which means making the island longer or wider.

Buehl, what do you mean by the fridge "(d)oes not need a cabinet?" Babs711 wrote that the CD fridge would have full depth cabs above. I assumed those cabs would be part of the fridge cab, perhaps incorrectly.

Babs, you need to speak with your cabinet maker about how wide your fridge cab will be because width will be determined by cab style and construction. Look at your inspiration pics. The fridge cabs in the 1st and 3rd inspiration photos aren't much wider than the fridge. However, the cabs for the built-in fridges in photos 3 and 5 are wider. We can give generalities but specifics come into play when you meet with the cabinet maker and the other subs who will work on your home. Personally, I like to plan for wider and then be pleasantly surprised when I have more space than needed instead of finding out that I don't have enough room.

Lisa, I think that's clear. I need to sit down with it. But it seems to make sense. Thank you.

Buehl, those measurements help. We do want it to be built in looking. So those numbers help. Again, we can move to the right.

What I'd really like to know from you guys is: If this was the space (blank) YOU had to work with, what would you do with it? Similar to what I have here or am I missing some great potential that I could be doing? What would you guys do with this space?

Thanks again, very much! This is very helpful.

A refrigerator does not necessarily need a "refrigerator cabinet". The alcove is built around the space and the refrigerator is slid into it.

As an example, in this pic you can see the cabinet that will be installed above our refrigerator sitting on the floor in the alcove on its side:

In this pic, if you look closely at the bottom of the now-installed upper cabinet, you can see that it's just attached to the 3/4" end panels flanking the opening. This alcove was built with the two end panels + an upper cabinet.

Babs...I'll try to find time tomorrow to look more closely at the layout.

Thanks buehl. I find your input very helpful on this forum. I appreciate any feedback you can give!

Thanks for the pics, buehl. When you wrote that a cab wasn't necessary, I thought you meant that the fridge would be free-standing as remodelfla has done - no wood cladding at all.

babs, I looked back at the first pic posted about your kitchen (thanks to bmore) and noticed that there is a wall next to the fridge. Are you planning on having a wall there? If you're going to put the fridge in a cab - or just clad it as buehl has done - you may not need a wall there and that would gain you 4.5".

Sorry I haven't been able to give more design help. I'm dealing with the aftermath of a bathroom flood (bathroom destroyed, carpet ruined, DR in shambles) and that is demanding most of my time. Good luck with your build!

No, the One she posted was old. The one at the top is correct. That wall is gone. No issues there. :) thanks for your help Lisa! Sorry about your flood. I know all about that myself. Good luck!

Any comments still welcome!

Ok-I did a rough draw of Lisa's suggestion above with the 30" banks of drawers on each side of the fridge. What happens with the uppers is that the ones to the left of the range become 51" wide (if you butt them right up against a range hood) and the ones to the right but between the hood and the fridge become 27". I'll put a pic below in a sec...

Unbalanced or better on the range wall? The dotted lines around the range reflect the width of the hood and where the uppers can start. I changed the island to reflect Lisa's changes. :)

The DW location is a problem. It's much better, functionally, with the DW on the left and the trash on the right. Since you have no water on the island, your main Prep Zone will be b/w the sink and range...which means the DW will be in the middle of it. Think about prepping over:
A DW that is being loaded/unloaded or that someone is trying to get into on and off & having to move out of the way
A running DW and the steam that comes billowing at times.
An open DW door being tripped over as you attempt to work to the right of the sink (Prep Zone) and/or go b/w the sink and range.

A trash pullout will be far more useful in the Prep Zone than farther away on the other side of the sink (see the "Mistakes" thread for my mistake...putting the trash pullout in the Cleanup Zone instead of the Prep Zone where it's needed more!)

With minimum island size for seating for 5:

Good idea to switch the DW, Buehl. All of Babs' earlier drawings have the DW to the left of the sink. Not sure why that got changed, don't think anyone here suggested doing that.

Did you look at the whole house plan? The 12' wide kitchen is open to a 10' wide DR. You've drawn an island that is only 9" from the perimeter of the kitchen space, which crowds the island and DR table seating. If Babs has a 42" table centered in the DR, there will only be 48" between the table and island. If her table is 48" wide, that aisle shrinks to 45". I would think you'd agree that this is not a wide enough aisle to have back to back seating.

The table/island seating clearance is why I drew the island (not accurately represented in babs' most recent drawing) at 48" wide, placed 44.5" inches between perimeter counter and island, 40" between island and fridge handles (72" pro-line Kitchenaid fridge, model of choice, is 30 1/8" deep with handles. Clearance is actually 39 7/8" but I wasn't quibbling about an 1/8"). That set-up leaves 65" for the back to back seating aisle.

The island can, however, be stretched towards the bottom wall. The kitchen is 18' long so your plan gives her a 72" aisle. Stretching it to a foot longer than you show is how I gave Babs 4 seats at the island, which is what she requested. That still left a 60" aisle between island and bottom wall, which is still quite generous.

What is your reasoning for the utility cab next to the fridge? Babs has eliminated that wall, plus she has a walk-in pantry.

Buehl, in my original plan, I had the DW on the left but switched it on a whim to see what I could do with the bottom drawers in that last one. You're completely right. It makes no sense to have it on the right. We're definitely thinking the same thing with that! Also, the window is fixed I believe. The plans have been stamped.

For the island, I think I'm liking narrowing it and making it for four people...as in how Lisa drew it earlier. The island seems crowded for five no? What do you think of it as it was drawn rectangularly above your post? Would that work? The square kind of does look huge now!

I've been looking at some of my Pinterest kitchens that I saved for layout ideas looking for range wall ideas where the range either ISN'T centered or IS centered from the first set of upper cabinetry. What do you guys think about these two different options for me?

1)OFF-CENTERED...

This will even out the bottom drawers a bit as was mentioned above.

STORAGE: If done this way, I'll have my baking supplies in the cabinet to the left of the rangehood. In the one toward the corner, I can put mixing bowls, casseroles/bakers, cakestands, etc. On the sink side, left cabinet will hold glasses and cups and the right will hold coffee stuff, etc.

What I'm noticing about the offset rangewalls that I like is that the cabinetry on each side of the range IS symmetrical like the solid doors here and the glass cabinetry in the corner here. I could easily do something similar to this (note that there's a lot more cabinetry in these kitchens overall but you get the picture):

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Another idea is to put some kind of shelving somewhere?
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I want to give this kitchen some personality and warmth...not just solid cabinetry all over. I'm wondering...solid cabinets over the fridge extended out to give the fridge a built in look. Solid regular uppers on each side of the range. Solid (?) 30" uppers to the left of the window....should this be to the counter (a hutch) or regular uppers? There is a wall to the left of that space. Glass uppers to the right of the window. And the 24" uppers in the corne on the range wall could be open shelves or glass? I'm realizing this is almost identical to the layout of that first photo I'm posting in this post.

2) Then you have keeping the cabinets equal and bigger on either side of the range. So instead of having two sets of 24"ish uppers on the left side of the range, it would be just one set of doors to open on the left and the right. Then the lowers would be uneven.

STORAGE: If this is what happens, then both upper doors would remain solid and baking supplies will be to the left and cooking supplies to the right. That's what I showed you photos of already above. I suppose with this option I'd do glass on both sides of the window.

I was resistant to the asymmetry in my earlier post with the other photos. But now, I may be rethinking my stance and leaning towards it if I can get the aesthetics right. I'm actually liking the idea now I think!