>>Morpheuspa, I'm a bit surprised you condone the use of any synthetics. I was under the impression that synthetics were of the devil.

Creative chemistry has its place. On northern lawns, the winterization step has to be synthetic as organics simply won't work at that time, it's too cold and the decay is too slow to supply nitrogen to the roots fast enough in November.

Synthetics also have metered amounts of resources guaranteed by the analysis. I know exactly what's hitting your soil, so most soil corrections are done using synthetic or mined but refined products.

The potassium sulfate, starter fertilizer, calcitic lime, and 20 Mules listed above are all in that category, but several are acceptable under organic methodology. Synthetic doesn't mean harmful.

Even the harshest of the synthetics can be used if you apply them properly. Most of the problems arise when people don't use them correctly and the resources build up and/or leach out.

>>My question would be do you use synthetics to kill certain ailments such as chinch bugs or funguses ie; brown patch, which we seem to be susceptible to in NW Florida? I inherited chinch bugs from a neighbor 2 lawns ago, and they destroyed the yard in a short period of time and before I reacted. Here's the kicker, I tore the yard out and my neighbor on the other side was the benefactor of what was left of my yard, which became the prettiest part of his yard. He's harrasses me about my lack of lawn ever since. Time for a little payback!

It would depend on the severity of the problem. One year, I had grubs so bad that the lawn started to float--thousands of square feet lost all roots, essentially turning into newly-installed sod that you could lift with your fingertips. Below that was a squirming, feeding, disgusting mass of grubs.

Out came the Sevin as anything less potent wasn't going to cut it and a 90% kill simply wasn't acceptable--that still left too many. The insect population just had to take one for the team as the alternative was no grass and no natural insect population anyway.

Two days later the grubs were dead and the grass was starting to slowly re-root. Post that, I use gentler chemistry to alleviate the problem before it becomes a problem.

So for something that's destroying the lawn, yes. Out comes an insecticide that's as targeted as it can be for minimal collateral damage. In the future, try to encourage big eyed bugs in your lawn (they eat cinch bugs), and if they get out of control, insecticidal soap will set them back with minimal collateral damage and no chance they'll evolve resistance to it.

For northern lawns, endophyte-treated seed will resist cinch bugs very well. This is not an option for southern lawns as of yet, to my knowledge.

Very severe infestations will require a heftier insecticide. Up here, Bug B Gone will do it, but I'm not sure about southern lawns' tolerance of it.

Brown patch can be suppressed fairly well by an early-season application of cracked corn or corn meal, which is covered with trichoderma fungus and happily reproduces in your lawn. That's a vampire fungus that drills holes in other fungi and eats them for lunch. It's not perfect, but it helps.

Outbreaks can be treated--and should be treated quickly--with a fungicide targeted for brown patch.

In a severe pinch, baking soda in water can be used. Although it sounds nicely organic (and it's harmless to you), it's a very wide-spectrum fungicide that will kill any fungus it touches. Most fungi are harmless or helpful to your lawn, so a wide-spectrum fungicide isn't recommended. Although I do use it to take out powdery mildew in the gardens if the Rose Pride treatments fail.

>>By the way, PKponder, I sat in on a class from the university of Florida (go gators!) and one of the first things he stated was Weed and feed does neither one. I never used it again.

Kinda. It's a tolerable feed, but generally applied at the wrong time (on northern lawns, at least, when weeds sprout and grow earlier than our lawns want breakfast). Applied properly, under the right conditions, it's an OK weed killer, but nothing stellar.

The main problem is the fact that you're applying weed killer everywhere, even on areas that don't require it. That's something I never recommend--I usually suggest spot spraying with the correct herbicide for severe outbreaks.

Adjusting your soil and encouraging the lawn using the correct maintenance methods is the best overall weed suppressant out there. Healthy grass doesn't get weeds because there's no room and they're thoroughly outcompeted. But for spot outbreaks, and we all get them, spot spray with a targeted herbicide that does minimal damage to other plants.

Overall, the whole philosophy--organic and soil based where possible, pull out the chemicals only when required and then use the minimum strength and minimum amount to get the job done--is called IPM, or Integrated Pest Management.

I'm not organic, I'm IPM. Organic is great. I love organic. But that restriction means that problems can and will spin out of control on you.

Sidenote: One of my favorite current herbicides is Tenacity, which is extremely well-tolerated by Kentucky bluegrass. It was awarded the coveted and very rarely given Least Toxic label, and it's extract from the bottlebrush plant. It works by interfering with chlorophyll production pathways in some weeds. These days it's synthesized in a lab, but chemically identical.

It's not wide-spectrum, but targets weeds that other herbicides don't. And fortunately, those are the weeds that are still a problem in my lawn and gardens--nutsedge, wild onion, P. trivialis, and P. annua.

Performance on other grass types differ (the impact on KBG is limited to a slight yellowing or whitening of the lawn temporarily), so check before use.

This is a new twist for me, IPM, and I've not heard that terminology before. I was under the incorrect impression that organics and synthetics were opposite ends of the spectrum and could not coexist. This is a bit comforting to know that if I experience some sort of infestation, I'm not kicked out of the organics club for using synthetics. My intent is to not use conventional methods that have totally failed me in the past, but the end game is to have a healthy, beautiful lawn, not just on the surface, but below it too. It helps to know in the event of having to use some of those synthetics I'm not cheating. Hope that makes sense.

>>This is a bit comforting to know that if I experience some sort of infestation, I'm not kicked out of the organics club for using synthetics

You will be. Pure organics people tend to be rather...interesting sorts. The sort that use the word "chemical" completely without irony, for instance, not realizing that water is a chemical. Most disallow the use of synthetically-created organic chemistry, for example, including urea. So if you pee on your lawn, that's fine. If you use a synthetically-created urea molecule (identical in every way), that's bad.

Hyper-technically, we've bred every plant we grow that's used in the creation of an organic feed. They're machine harvested. Stored using technological innovations. Machine ground. Trucked to their location. And so on. But that's OK, somehow.

So if you're detecting I don't much appreciate hypocrisy, you'd be right. :-)

However, you don't get kicked out of the IPM club as it covers the gamut from mostly organic to mostly synthetic. I sit at the mostly organic side of the equation, with synthetics and creative chemistry only coming out when absolutely necessary. I'm entirely tolerant of the fact that my soybean meal is probably GMO. So's my corn, which even if not doesn't exactly resemble teosinte any longer, nor would I wish it to.

You'll find the place where you're comfortable.

Steve, having gotten to know you by email over the past few months, I know you're going to run off and do research on IPM. I want to caution you on that. My observation is that most practitioners hide behind that label to apply chemicals at the drop of a hat. They seem to be well versed on biological extracts, many of which are highly toxic, but ignorant of actual biological solutions like big eyed bugs, wasps (for caterpillars), wasps (for spiders), beneficial nematodes, bacillius thurengiensis, and other highly effective materials. Morph's implementation of IPM is highly targeted with the very minimal use of chemical alternatives.

The first thing morph suggested was that you'll need annual soil tests. The lack of monitoring soil chemistry is why the lawns in your area fail after a few years. They could recover briefly by pounding the chemical fertilizers on, but that would quickly fade. This is the see-saw effect. If they let the yard rest for a season, some of the microbes would recover and the lawn might regrow for a year. See-saw. What will be different about what you're doing is keeping the microbes happy with organic fertilizer. That is key. Secondly if you keep up with the annual soil test and recheck with morph, that will kick your lawn well beyond normal for your area.

When you mentioned you were surprised morph used synthetics, I'm not sure what you were referring to. Was it in general or was it in reaction to pests? Because his use in general is to get your soil chemistry adjusted properly. You can't adjust chemistry with microbes. There are no microbes which bring significant amounts of boron, potassium or iron to the soil. If you want the soil be become "normal," you will have to use chemicals. And then, as morph has told me a thousand times, getting the soil chemistry correct will allow the microbes to thrive...assuming you are feeding and watering them. Since you have pure sand, getting your soil to become more normal will necessarily rely on monitoring the chemistry. Microbes will help stabilize it and the dead organic matter that comes with growing grass will help. Sometimes they help in unexpected ways, so you'll have to keep an eye on it.

There is no organics club. Well there is but not for lawns. Nobody is going to come through your computer and choke you for occasionally spot spraying herbicides. It's your lawn so what chemicals you use on it is between you and Satan. ;-) If you were posting over on the organic lawn care section, they are a little more persnickety. If you were posting there, they assume you are only interested in organic solutions. Had you been at GardenWeb lawn care fighting arena 10 years ago you'd know why there is a separate organic lawn care section. Nowadays the synthetic people seem to be more tolerant. Can't say the same for the organic nuts, so it's probably good to have separate forums.

I forgot I wanted to mention chinch bugs. There are some interesting videos on YouTube about identification and eradication. I would watch them to learn about identification but skip over the eradication part. Chinch bug damage almost always looks like heat stress next to a hot piece of concrete. The bugs always start there, so if you see stress next to pavement or concrete, get down on your hands and knees to look for the bugs. If you see them, then spot spray or you could use beneficial nematodes. I know nematode is a dirty word in FL, but the beneficials are good to know about. Instead of infecting plant roots, these guys bring a disease to insects that causes the insects to stop feeding immediately. Then it's all over for the host insect.

I don't know for sure, but I want to believe that chinch bugs get started in spots where the sprinkler is not getting the job done as deep as needed. That is quite often where the lawn hits the pavement. Nobody wants to water the pavement, so the tendency is to adjust the water so it only hits the grass. But if you miss by a little, then the spot doesn't get as much water and it becomes dry and hot faster right there. Knowing this might help you prevent them.

As usual David, I thank you. I just don't have a good working knowledge of all of this..synthetics, organics, when to use what, it's just all new to me, but I thirst for knowledge. It sounds like to me there are three camps, full blown organics and nothing but organics, a mix of organics and synthetics, then the big box fertilizer group. I was of the last group out of ignorance, but have seen the err of my ways. I'm trying to glean from all perspectives. I would admit, the organics portion of the things you and I have discussed interest and intrigue me the most. Things like cracked corn, oat and rice hulls, corn meal and alfalfa - it just seems logical and well studied and researched. It seems like natural balance. It's all been an eye opening experience. The synthetics that I was referring to are things that would be harmful to the aquifer and local bays. Stuff that I might compare to artificial sweeteners like sweet and low. Stuff that's made in a lab with absolutely no natural ingredients, just man made chemicals. Stuff that in the long run depletes the soil and kills everything good. I guess I had correctly or incorrectly put weed and feed into this category. At the end of the day, I'm going to trust what you and the sources you have recommended to walk me through the process. I'm beginning to understand, especially the importance of regular testing of the soil. I will follow directions and ask lots of what I feel are necessary questions. As I've stated many times before, I just hope I don't wear out my welcome.

I've been practicing watering the road for years. It made sense to me to over shoot so I could be assured of proper coverage.

>> It sounds like to me there are three camps, full blown organics and nothing but organics, a mix of organics and synthetics, then the big box fertilizer group.

Pretty much, although you'll find overlap between the first and the last and the middle. Some people are almost completely big box, but rarely apply some Milo. Some organic people cheat a bit and simply never tell anybody.

My personal version of IPM is strongly tilted toward the organic side. I currently have a fairly severe vole invasion (they ate my dahlia tubers last year). Treatment? Castor oil and detergent. They can't stand the smell and don't like the oil on their fur. They'll de-camp and go elsewhere, which is all I require. Fortunately, I use castor in soap making as it's the only reasonable source of ricinoleic fatty acids, so I have plenty on-hand.

I'll apply cracked corn for the minor fungal control, with the result that fungal diseases are unlikely. If they happen, I'll treat them at that point--but I'll also treat my zinnia in late August to prevent powdery mildew as temperatures start to fall and nights get damper. One or two shots will keep 'em going through October with minimal to no side effects in the soil.

I wasnt able to get the potassium sulfate locally, so I ordered it and the Mag-i-cal online. I received the potassium yesterday and wanted to apply it today, but it is very fine - almost powder like. I cant imagine putting it through a broadcaster. The only alternative I can think of is hand casting or putting it through a hose end sprayer. What would you suggest?

Hand casting is fine, or a small whirlygig spreader (a hand-held) should do as well.

Since we have several apps going down, any areas of over or under application should even out.

An update and a few questions. I'm on track with all of the things I am scheduled to put down with a new round of products to put down at the end of the week. You stated when I put down the borax it would drop the Milorganite to 150% normal rate. Should I put down 1 1/2 times the bag rate? Im not sure what I should do here and I want to get this right. Also, Im a bit paranoid about chinch bugs in our area. I lost my last St Augustine yard to the them and I want to be proactive if thats possible. Anything I can put down that might repel them? Lastly, would you recommend putting down cracked corn to keep fungus at bay? Thanks again for all the help.

1) Half again Milorganite rate is fine--a high percentage of the nitrogen is organic, so it won't burn. I regularly go far higher than that in the gardens and I've gone far, far, FAR higher in the lawn.

2) Repelling cinch bugs is, regrettably, not possible without years of planning (they don't like shade so planted trees will keep them away, but will unfortunately also shade your lawn and thin it out). Keep an eye out for infestations and treat immediately if you see them. An insecticidal soap should take 'em out with minimal damage to other species.

Over time, big eyed bugs may move in and help you out. If not, you can buy them. But I'd wait to see if you have a problem first.

3) A shot of cracked corn or corn meal at 10-20 pounds per thousand square feet is never an error. So if you want to, go for it. It'll give a gentle, weak protection against fungus.

It's been a little over 3 months since my last post and I wanted to give you an update and ask for any further guidance you may have. First, Im still pretty excited about the new direction you and David have given in pursuit of the most beautiful lawn in my neighborhood. I've followed your advice exactly as you've laid it out for me. I've applied everything you listed, but also added a couple of rounds of alfalfa that David has suggested. I did have a little problem with chinch bugs, which I treated immediately. My lawn looks very good color wise, but I've got a lot of weeds. I can't seem to stay ahead of them. Some areas show healthy st Augustine turf, others are very inner mingled with weeds. I pull them hoping the STA will cover in its place, but it just comes back weeds. From a distance, my yard looks really good, but under closer inspection, I have lots of weeds. I wonder if I should have waited another 3-4 weeks to plant my sod this past spring. I still have a few spots that have never grown in since I planted initially. My questions are:

1. When I pull the weeds, should I put some soil down in the bare spot I just created? Would this encourage the STA to run?

2. Am I being impatient with my expectations for this year since I'm conditioning some really poor soil?

3. I've put down corn meal once. Should I put more down, or would you recommend something else like cracked corn, oat hulls or rice hulls?

Ive also thought I might pull another soil sample and see where I'm at. If you think I should, I will. If it isn't necessary, I'll wait until next spring.

I anxiously await your response and recommendations.

Steve

Right now, the soil is adjusting, slowly. Phosphorus takes ages to perk down. Calcium isn't exactly fast. And I was pretty gentle with how fast things are going down to begin with because of the sandy soil you have. It just can't bind very much at one time.

For right now, I'd ride out the rest of the year, finish the applications, and test the soil next spring. Phosphorus moves so slowly it'll take the year (and the winter) to shift into the soil far enough show appreciably on the test. Some numbers, done now, will show an overshoot that doesn't really exist--the Ca and Mg will perk through the profile by next spring and give the correct readings. So for now, I'd skip it and save the $20 since we already know the test won't be completely accurate and isn't going to highlight anything new.

The increase in weeds is probably a good sign. It means the soil is now becoming rich enough that things grow in it! The SA should spread in and close the gaps eventually.

We never did discuss your mowing regime for the lawn...how tall do you mow, and how often? That can have a major impact on lawn weeds!

1) I'd just bash the soil off the roots and stick it back in the hole. Adding soil is rarely necessary, and often isn't a great idea (the balance of that soil is unknown). In the garden, removed weeds are simply soil stripped and then tossed int the compost bin (if they're not seeding).

2) A little. I would have expected improvement by July or August, however, even on newer SA sod. Has it begun to spread yet, or is it being really hesitant about it?

3) Corn is never a mistake (my top year was 200 pounds per thousand square feet of corn...in my case, one ton of corn across just the lawn). However, once per year at 10 pounds per thousand is all that's required for fungal protection. So you can also use rice or oat hulls if those are available and cheaper for you. All three offer pretty much identical soil advantages, it's just that the corn offers some minor fungal protection as well.

As always, thank you for taking so much time with me. That makes me feel a bit better that the weeds aren't necessarily the beginning of the end, instead it could indicate improved soil. It's also encouraging to know that some of these things work very slowly. The yard actually looks pretty full, but take out the weeds and I would have some holes. You said just pull the weeds and shake the soil off and let the grass cover. There are some areas where the sod never grew and I'm left with dried out roots (stolons) and the sod hasn't covered them like I expected. Should I leave them alone or pull them out? Question 2: I'm doing my best to be patient, but I do feel like the grass is a bit slow to spread. Some areas look really good, some, meh. I'm trying to turn over a new leaf when it comes to this patience stuff. In regards to mowing, I mow once a week religiously and the blade heighth is as high as my honda mower will go. I'm guessing 3". The particular strain of STA is saphfire. The place that sold it said it is a premium STA, a little bit more expensive, and should be mowed at 2- 2/12 inches, but after consulting with David, he recommended cutting it as high as I could. I took his advice. It's growing and I love the color. I also think I may be battling a chinch bug invasion. I'm using a granular insect killer, triazicide. I've treated once and it seemed to stop it, however I noticed today I may have a small infestation. Any recommendations on insect killers that may be better, or will this do what i need it to?

Thanks again Morpheus. I consider your recommendations gospel. I really do appreciate the time you take with me.

Steve

Three inches is about right, and will help knock out the weeds (over time).

>> It's also encouraging to know that some of these things work very slowly.

Extremely slowly. Your organic matter levels won't increase quickly at all, P rises slowly, Ca is not exactly speedy. K does work pretty fast, but doesn't show extreme changes under most circumstances (important, yes...visible, not so much).

>> Question 2: I'm doing my best to be patient, but I do feel like the grass is a bit slow to spread. Some areas look really good, some, meh. I'm trying to turn over a new leaf when it comes to this patience stuff.

It actually sounds like it's exceeding my personal expectations, but I do understand the desire to have grass that's really nice.

St. Aug's optimal feeding is 1 pound of nitrogen every 8 weeks total, although on newer sod I'd rather see you apply 0.5 to 0.6 pounds of N every month. We're still well in growth season, so if your nitrogen applications are below that, step them up.

Synthetics are fine, or Milorganite. With Milo or grains, the influx of N can be far higher and not do any damage. Quite the opposite, my top flight year on protein (grain) based nitrogen was 37 pounds per thousand square feet on a grass that requires around 5 pounds of nitrogen per thousand per year.

Do that synthetically and you just sterilized (and chemically destroyed) the soil. Done organically, the grass started spreading like a wildfire, turned deepest green, and required 2 to 3 times a week mowing. I was doing this to increase the OM levels in the soil, not to feed the lawn, however.

>>There are some areas where the sod never grew and I'm left with dried out roots (stolons) and the sod hasn't covered them like I expected. Should I leave them alone or pull them out?

Dealer's choice, really. The dead stolons and stems should rot away, eventually, but let's face it. Who wants to look at that? Remove them if they bother you, smooth out the soil, and feed (organically) the grass around the holes very heavily to encourage spread.

>>I also think I may be battling a chinch bug invasion. I'm using a granular insect killer, triazicide. I've treated once and it seemed to stop it, however I noticed today I may have a small infestation. Any recommendations on insect killers that may be better, or will this do what i need it to?

I am not a chinch bug expert (they're not much of a problem for me) so I'll defer to David or anybody else who wants to offer an opinion.

As a general rule, I dislike using the same insecticide (or fungicide, for that matter) twice in a row. It's unlikely on the home lawn, but you do run a slight risk of selecting for a resistant strain of insect.

I'd alternate with another one that kills cihnch bugs, but I'm not sure what would be best. Any insecticide listed as killing them should do.

Unfortunately, they're also going to wipe out the big eyed bug population, which is working to control the chinch bugs (and they breed more slowly, like most predators).

Morpheuspa, do you have any experience with Virginia buttonweed? I've pulled some of it, but I have such large areas that if I pull it all I'll be left with large patches of dirt. It's really come on strong in the last 6 weeks or so. Would you suggest removing it and resoding the affected areas or try to combat or kill it. From what I've read it's very common and very difficult to eradicate. I also was thinking I may want to wait until it all goes dormant then remove it and resod next spring. What would you suggest? Thanking you in advance for your advice.

I appreciate the research you did on this. David may have some experience with this stuff since he lives in similar climate, so I'll shoot him an email also. Seems like a real pain to get rid of, but nearly every yard in our area has it. Again, thanks for steering me in the right direction.

It's definitely a good idea to check in with people who have actual experience--I really don't have a clue about the stuff, just research.

Morpheus,

We are approaching spring in northwest Florida and I wanted to once again tap in to your knowledge of what to do, year 2. The last time I communicated with you was September and I was in a vicious battle with Virginia buttonweed. It's dormant now, but I'm assured it will be back with a vengeance. I will begin treatment for that in the next few weeks. The end of March a year ago was my first soil test and you evaluated it and give me a roadmap of how to improve my soil in hopes of the ever elusive killer lawn that would make me the envy of the neighborhood. Im guessing I'd need to start year 2 with a soil sample, but I don't want to jump the gun. I'm think we will have another 4-5 weeks of winter. Should I be putting anything down now during the dormant season? When should I do another soil test? I'm going to need to put down a little bit of sod where the Virginia buttonweed took over, when would be the proper time for that?

Thanks again for your direction. As always, I anxiously await your response.

ccigator

I'd get a new soil test when you can here, which in NW Florida pretty much means any time now. I'm expecting some improvement from last year!

I'll try to get it in next week or so. I'm with you, I'm expecting some improvements, but I'm in for the long haul. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me through this process. I hope this doesn't become a burden to you.

Morpheus,

i recieved my soil test results yesterday and I see changes, but still don't know exactly what to do with this info. Im in the process of trying to eliminate the Virginia buttonweed via roundup, which gave me fits last year, but other than that I haven't put anything down since November. I wrote in the numbers from last years soil test so you can do a side by side comparison and hopefully create another roadmap for me to follow again this year. I want you to know I faithfully followed the processes you laid out for m e last year and will do the same this year. I anxiously await your evaluation and response. I really cannot wait to get started!

Did I miss this? Send me a message when that happens, would you!

Overall, the changes are within sampling range. Your soil is still very sandy, the OM is rather low (keep going, sandy soils take forever to rise), and so on. I've discussed a few things below.

Ca, Mg, K: Either this test had sampling differences or the soil is simply of too low an ME to hold resources. I'd rather hold off this year and work on organic matter levels, but I do recommend some maintenance level additions below. You've seen this before, so I'm listing everything in recommendations without too much explanation. Let me know if I need to expand anything!

Minor Elements: Again, sampling differences. I'm confident that Boron is low, but I'm not confident about anything else.

Boron: We use Milorganite as a carrier and 20 Mule Team Borax as the boron source. You can purchase 20 Mules at the grocery store in the laundry section. In a wheelbarrow or the like, dump the Milo. Spraying very, very lightly with water (I use a spray bottle like the kind people use to damp their clothes when they iron) will help the boron stick. Add the recommended amount of 20 Mule Team Borax and stir, spraying occasionally to get the stuff to stick to the Milo. Then apply over the recommended area. So if going for bag rate Milorganite (1 bag per 2,500 square feet), you'd add 10 tablespoons of 20 Mule Team Borax.

Recommendations:

April 1: Apply 2 pounds of calcitic limestone (Encap, Mag-I-Cal or Pennington Fast Lime) per thousand square feet.

April 15: Apply 1 pound of Epsom salt per thousand square feet.

May 1: Apply 2 pounds of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

May 15: Apply 4 tablespoons per thousand square feet of 20 Mule Team Borax in Milorganite carrier.

I forgot Phosphorus!

It rose only a small amount, and in this case, I'd keep going!

In April, May, September, and October, feed the lawn with any starter fertilizer at bag rate. Again, that'll take care of the recommended feeding for St. Aug for the entire season, so no other nitrogen source is required--but organics can always be used whenever you like.

morpheus - quick question regarding your massive cutworm infestation some years ago (btw, do you do Anything like a normal person? :o) ). Did you ever figure out why you had so many cutworms? I know you were experimenting with large quantities of organics and I wonder if there can be a downside (like encouraging cutworms) to some of the applications we do. This may have been asked and answered before, but I just can't remember.

ccigator - since you are a new lawn nut (I'm a year or two ahead of you) I thought you might not mind the intrusion on your thread.

I have *no* idea what happened. However, it was during the adjustment period, so it was *probably* an imbalance.

Certainly nothing like that has happened since things settled down.

I see. I thought it might have something to do with excess organics when you were putting down so much.

Thanks again Morpheus. I do have a couple of questions. Last year I used cracked corn as my organic material since it was the most cost efficient and available, but I only put it down once. Considering how poor the OM is, would you recommend putting down cracked corn monthly? Also, last year you gave me these instructions for the second half of the year as follows:

June 1: Apply 1 pound Epsom salt per thousand square feet. At this point, the sod is getting mildly hungry again; apply Milorganite at the bag rate.

June 15: Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

July 1: Apply Milorganite at the bag rate.

August 1: Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.. Apply Milorganite at the bag rate.

September 1: Apply any starter fertilizer at half the bag rate.

September 1: Apply 3 tablespoons of 20 Mule Team Borax per thousand square feet (this will drop Milorganite at about 150% normal rate as well).

October 1: Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

October 15: Apply Encap or Mag-I-Cal calcitic lime at 2 pounds per thousand square feet.

November 1: Apply 1 pound Epsom salt per thousand square feet.

November 15: Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

Would this be a good chart to follow again this year, or would you just stick to what you've given me and not put anything down other than the starter fertilizer? I still have some of the 20 mule and starter fertilizer from last season. Is it still good, or should I dispose of it and start fresh? Also, Id like to put down alfalfa, although I know you and David do not share the same philosopy on it. David, if your checking in, Id like your insights on when to apply.

Your a Godsend my friend. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I want you to know I truly appreciate it and really have no one else to walk me through this outside of you and David. You two are my only sources.

Your soil unnerves me. Assuming you followed my schedule, almost nothing stuck (which isn't a huge problem, but it is a waste). It's possible your developing lawn sucked up quite a lot, which is why the maintenance levels recommended above, but I'm hesitant to go beyond that until I see another test in 2017. I really hate dumping resources into waterways, and that might be happening here.

Stick with the minor additions above and let me know instantly if something goes awry with the lawn...

Re: cracked corn, sure you can go monthly! Or oat hulls or rice hulls if those are cheaper for you--or really, any other organic with a low protein percentage (which translates to low nitrogen, higher carbon levels).

The build of OM levels is slowest in warm, sandy, wetter soils. You have at least two out of the three in Florida at all times compared to, say, a Pennsylvania soil.

This location has been a fight from day one. This is my 3rd lawn in 19 years. This part of Florida just cannot seem to produce beautiful lawns for a sustained amount of time. In your opinion, can this soil ever produce? From your last reply, Im beginning to wonder if anything will really work in this soil. I followed your schedule religiously, and it seemed like the sod never did take off. I really could have gone 10-14 days without mowing and it would have been no problem. It just doesn't seem to thrive. It wasn't dying, but it just never looked that good nor did it spread. I wouldn't say it looks unhealthy or sparse, but it just isn't rich and full. I would tell you that I'm at my wits end, but I've been there for a couple of years now. Im not giving up, but its pretty discouraging. Any suggestions outside of astroturf or moving to central Florida is much appreciated.

Yes, the soil can produce, but it's going to require prep work. In this case, I want the OM levels to rise a bit--which should give more base on which to work.

2.6 is around the ME of beach sand and, compared to even most people's 6 or so, doesn't hold much in the way of resources. Higher OM will bring that up, but it takes time.

Would you recommend anything in addition to the cracked corn or hulls to boost the OM levels? Would you mix it up and use cracked corn one month, then rice hulls the next month, etc.? Again, I thank you for bringing me in off the ledge. This can get pretty disheartening without a little professional optimism.

Really, whatever's cheapest is what you should use in the largest amounts the soil can handle without creating a nasty scent. If cheapest is cracked corn or dried brewer's grains, I don't really care. :-)

Lifting OM levels is a challenge--I want you to know that--in Florida soils. OM burns off most quickly in sandy soils (which contain and allow in a lot of oxygen). It's faster in warm soils than in cold ones. And it's faster in soils that receive a lot of rainfall.

Whereas you'll notice the northern members of the forum can reach the 8 to 15% range, yours won't do that. It doesn't matter, we're just trying to increase the binding points.

If you see oddball stuff, like solid humates, they might be a good idea. Check in with the label image and we'll evaluate it. Really, anything that lifts the soil EC at this point, and isn't expensive, I'd consider worth a shot.

What's your opinion of mushroom compost? It's expensive, but if it would boost my soil and help over the long haul, I'd be willing to spend the money.

Morpheus,. I've been reading the forums on humates and there are some encouraging posts about them for our sandy soil. A poster by the name of pnbrown seems to be pretty knowledgable about it, but the posts go back to 2013. It seems to be the road less traveled by most on the thread, but I'd like to try it out. My question is, do you know of a specific brand or type that you think may work in my sandy soil? I'd contact pnbrown via private message if I knew how, but I haven't figured that out yet either. Also, what about composts that are available in my area, such as mushroom composts? It's about $250 per dump truck load, but I'd consider spending it if I thought it would benefit my soil.

Sorry, I missed this! Mushroom compost is pretty much identical to every other compost, so if other compost is cheaper...use that!

In and of itself, compost is not necessary. You can get the same thing by using grain fertilizers, which will decay in place and turn into compost over time. That also tends to be cheaper and easier to handle (plus you can apply it over time as it's convenient to you as opposed to getting faced with a big honking pile of compost).

Humates are...interesting creatures. They're useful for raising the exchange capacity of the soil when necessary (yours is low, but...) and for retaining a little water via charge attraction. All things considered? They have their uses, but I'd rather see large amounts of organic matter getting thrown around instead. That'll retain water, sponge-like, modify the soil structure, and eventually become some humates at the end of the road. Along the way, that OM feeds the plants and soil life as well, which compost mostly won't.

Ok thanks Morpheus. I'll stick with the cracked corn. I can get it locally for $7.99 for a 50 lb bag.

I do realize I was a bit contradictory with the above; I said Humates--Yes, then Humates--Well, Not So Much.

If the price is not too much more than cracked corn, they're worth using. Once. Twice, maybe. When established, a late-stage humate (I'm presuming the source is ground Leonardite coal, which is *really* late stage) can hang around for centuries.

While fungi can be found snacking on them (and turning the fulvates that are in there into humates, and the humates into even longer-chained humates), they don't encourage a vast amount of soil life. The cracked corn will through the initial and middling stages of decay (the end stage stuff is a small residue of fulvates). Humates also supply zero nitrogen, whereas the corn will deposit 1.65% of its mass as nitrogen that the lawn (and bacteria, fungi, and other critters) can use.

I've been giving this a lot of thought after reviewing last years soil test vs this year. I think I may have an answer for what appears to be no gain in soil production or improvement. Last years soil test was about 6 weeks after I install the new sod, thus I may have been testing more of the soil that came with the sod as opposed to what I really have. I ordered a pretty thick base, maybe 1-2 inches. Does that make sense? I wonder if I really had a false reading in year one, and a true reading this year. This is what I do know. I followed the guidelines to a tee from last year, including proper watering and mowing. I didn't deviate. I just wonder if I started with the wrong baseline.

As of this writing, my lawn looks like crap. Some of it is self inflicted because I was trying to eradicate Virginia buttonweed. I lost about 25% - 30% of the new sod to that and chinch bugs. I feel like I need to promote some top growth and was wondering if you would recommend any kind of top dressing, such as peat moss or cow manure. I just don't seem to be getting much spreading of the sod. Also, the only OM I'm currently using is cracked corn and I plan on using it once a month. Is there something else I might should add or use? Your thoughts are always highly regarded and appreciated.

Yep, it's entirely possible you got a flawed reading last year, with the better (but not what I'd call stellar) soil that came with the sod.

I reproduced last year's recommendations below with some modifications. If it isn't inconvenient for you, do this again. It won't hurt, but might not help--we won't know until 2017. I stepped up the amount of calcium considerably and cut the boron. We'll ride that for a year.

Don't bother to top dress. Peat moss contains no nutrients, cow manure contains far too much nitrogen. :-) Just keep tossing the organics around, it's easier, cheaper, and will do the same job. I didn't include most things like cracked corn below as they can be dropped whenever you wish, even on the same day something else goes if you want!

Recommendations for 2016:

May 1: Apply any starter fertilizer at bag rate. Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

May 15: Apply Encap or Mag-I-Cal calcitic lime at 4 pounds per thousand square feet.

June 1: Apply 1 pound Epsom salt per thousand square feet. Apply Milorganite at the bag rate.

June 15: Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

July 1: Apply Milorganite at the bag rate.

August 1: Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.. Apply Milorganite at the bag rate.

September 1: Apply any starter fertilizer at half the bag rate.

October 1: Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

October 15: Apply Encap or Mag-I-Cal calcitic lime at 3 pounds per thousand square feet.

November 1: Apply 1 pound Epsom salt per thousand square feet.

November 15: Apply 1 pound of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

THanks Morpheus. Ill follow the new guidelines. I am up to date through May 1 with the instructions you gave me a few weeks ago:

April 1: Apply 2 pounds of calcitic limestone (Encap, Mag-I-Cal or Pennington Fast Lime) per thousand square feet.

April 15: Apply 1 pound of Epsom salt per thousand square feet.

May 1: Apply 2 pounds of potassium sulfate per thousand square feet.

May 15: Apply 4 tablespoons per thousand square feet of 20 Mule Team Borax in Milorganite carrier.

I'll scrap this one and replace it with today's version. Is there anything in addition that might produce some top growth? Thanks again for all your guidance... And patience.

That doesn't include anything to feed the lawn (which would include top growth), so that will need to go into the schedule as well. There really aren't any restrictions on when you can feed.

Do you have a suggestion as to what to use to feed it? Im a total novice at this.

Thanks,

Steve

Really, anything organic is great. St. Aug's feeding recommendation is 1 pound of nitrogen every 8 weeks through the growing season.

That would translate to about 20 pounds of Milorganite per thousand square feet every 2 months. Or 15 pounds of cottonseed meal per K. Or 60 pounds of corn per K. However you want to play it is fine.

Nobody's saying you can't exceed that if you do it with organic feedings. Monthly certainly isn't too much, and I did that with my KBG up here (which requires about the same amount of nitrogen).

If done synthetically, I'd stick to that target or divide the feedings into every 4 weeks, 0.5 to 0.6 pounds of N (half rate, in other words). The starter I recommended two posts above will supply a good chunk of synthetic nitrogen, so I'd do any additional feeding organically. Overdoing the synthetic N isn't a real good idea...

Thank you Morpheus. I would like to stick to the Milorganite if that would be adequate feeding. Im a little skittish on the other stuff such as scotts, etc. Just to clarify, its ok to bump up the milorganite to monthly, and load up on the cracked corn, which is about the only thing I can find down here. I will say since my last application according to your instructions, the yard seems to be making some nice improvements. Im going to have to add some sod where I / Virginia buttonweed killed the new sod last year, but I was planning on doing it when I feel like I've gotten more control over it. Right now Im spot killing with round up in areas that I see its beginning to sprout up, and Ive also treated the entire yard twice. Im actually feeling like, outside the VBW, I would have had a pretty decent yard this year. Im seeing some healthy runners take off and the color is good. I can't help but believe that your road map to a beautiful yard via healthy soil is beginning to have an effect. One other question if I may. The areas that are completely dead - would you recommend adding potting soil or rich soil to advance growth in those areas? I know David Hall is not a fan of upsetting what weve added since it could change the chemistry of the soil so to speak. Ive not done that since he said not too. Your thoughts?

If Milo and corn are available and you're happy with the idea, I'm thrilled. Both feed the lawn (the Milo much better than the corn), and both build the soil (the corn better than the Milo).

I'm also not a fan of adding soil to areas without some very specific reason to do so (like a low spot). It messes up the soil chemistry and changes the soil texture unless you match your existing soil type. That's very hard to do.

Morpheus, after bringing the Virginia buttonweed under control, it's time to lay sod in the areas that are bare. I'll be putting down a good bit of sod, maybe 3 pallets. Would you recommend putting down something before the sod goes in, such as cracked corn or starter fertilizer? Thanks for the advice.