Legally, in the examples you've given, the fault is the dog's owner or handler.

Well, your asking people to grab the third rail here, aren't you!

The German Shepherd needs training, that I can say for for. What I can't say for sure is if that dog would bite you, or anyone.

Many dogs become excited and bark when a person or dog or anything crosses their path. It's a problem with socialization.

A known vicious dog should be restrained in public and probably wear a muzzle.

You really weren't the problem here. The owners are problem #1, and whomever took on the task of walking a large, strong, potentially dangerous dog out in public, without the ability or knowledge to control the dog, is #2.

It happens all too frequently, sad to say.

The dog bite cases on the TV judge shows usually end up favoring the person who was bit because the dog owner failed to keep their dog under control. There are some exceptions, like if a dog is behind a sturdy/high fence in his own yard and someone gets bit when they put their hand through the fence to pet the dog.

A lot depends on where the dog is and what is going on. A dog in his own fenced yard is a different issue from one on the street. A dog being handled by a vet is a still different issue, if the dog is normally gentle.

Inside the house with a hostile stranger or burglar is different from inside the house with grandkids.

First unexcused bite can be different than second unexcused bite.

There are a lot of variables.

Rhizo said, "Legally, in the examples you've given, the fault is the dog's owner or handler."

Unless you are an attorney, licensed to practice in the state where Nicole lives, you shouldn't be making an absolute statement such as you did. Your Houzz page indicates that you are a professional horticulturist, but if you are a licensed attorney, please say so.

I'm not an attorney, but I worked for many years as a paralegal, and I am married to an attorney. As such, I know there is what's called "contributory negligence" which can come into play in situations such as this. In the first scenario that Nicole described, the two little pups were running around unrestrained and they approached a larger dog that was on a leash. Unless the pit bull's owner didn't make any attempt whatsoever to pull his dog away from the two little pups, I sincerely doubt that he (or she) would be held legally liable for 100% of the injuries the pups sustained. The pups' owner has an obligation to keep those pups restrained, otherwise they could run around wreaking havoc on the neighborhood and anyone walking by the house where they live.

As to the second situation that Nicole described.... I don't think that any municipality would pass an ordinance prohibiting all dogs from being walked in public if they are not "dog park friendly." That's why there are leash laws -- so that dog owners/walkers can keep control of their animal(s). BUT, the dog owners/walkers should not be walking a dog (or dogs) that they cannot control. And, anyone who approaches a dog that they do not know assumes the risk of whatever might occur -- similar to spectators assuming the risk of injury when being hit by a foul ball or an errant bat at a baseball game. "Courts operate under the premise that spectators assume the risk of
attending a game/event, and that it should be obvious to the spectator that a baseball, puck, tire,
or golf ball can hit them." (See, for example, Loughran v. The Phillies, 888 A.2d 872 (2005). See also Jones v. Three Rivers Management
Corp.,394 A.2d 546 (1978).)

"And, anyone who approaches a dog that they do not know assumes the risk of whatever might occur"

The devil is in the details, and it depends on the 'approach'. If you are merely walking on the same sidewalk and passing by, you do not assume the risk of a dog attack by an owner who has the dog leashed while walking it.

"Unless you are an attorney, licensed to practice in the state where Nicole lives, you shouldn't be making an absolute statement such as you did."

We all have a right to our view of what the law is. The very fact that there are courts, that each side may have an attorney during a legal proceeding, but only one side wins the case, shows that the law is not immutable and it is subject to interpretation. So even if one IS an attorney, there is not an absolute.

If your view is different, let's hear it, but don't try to hush others who want to have their say.

Dogs kill cat

If the owner can't control two dogs, he needs to eliminate one or walk one at a time.

Brushworks, what makes you think he can control one? That is just sad.

Concur with Lucille 100%!

A dog owner/handler has a legal/ethical responsibility to have their dog(s) under control. In the case of the pit bull the owner of the pups that were off leash and NOT under her/his control should have paid her/his own vet bill. The pit bull owner was being kind.

Dogs may bite for many reasons. Even good natured dogs. Biting is their only defense mechanism. There is a big difference between unprovoked viciousness and a response to provocation.

German Shepherds are very protective and territorial at times. The woman really should not have been walking a dog that she could not control but as long as it was leashed and she had control of the animal where it could not flee her she has every right to walk it.

My last big dogs were both well behaved and under my control both on and off leash but I used to drive me nuts when little unsocialized Fluffmuffin would come around the corner at the pet supply on one of those idiotic retractable leashes and attack my perfectly well mannered Rot who was quietly standing or sitting at my side. Rot was very social and put up with it but the owner would invariably snatch up her vicious snowflake and glare at me telling me to keep MY dog away from hers. LOL

Just something I wanted to add, just because a dog barks and lunges toward a person doesn't necessarily mean they are going to attack. My dog, the one in the photo, has done this before just out of the blue when a man got too close to me. She is not a vicious dog! Sometimes dog just act stupid, they are dogs....HAHA! She has also barked at passing dogs like she was CUJO but as soon as a dog gets up to her she wants to play. We have had many loose dogs run up to us and she is friendly, she's even had dogs jump on her and she would not bite.

The person walking the "Pit" wasn't doing anything wrong and may not have even known their dog would bite. Dogs should not be running loose. As has been stated already, that's why there are leash laws!

The dog who isn't on a leash is the one in the wrong.

IMO, if you have a dog that doesn't do well with other dogs, a dog that is defensive or a dog that you are not quite sure how they will react in public, it shouldn't be out in public. A long driveway, a country road, a late night walk when children are asleep, or places where you can be alone would be better places to walk those types of dogs. So leash or no leash, it doesn't matter to me, an unpridectable dog should not be on a public sidewalk, where children or other pets may approach or pass by. Common sense.

Let's reverse that. You've got a dog that has never had a single problem and one day someone or some dog comes up to YOUR dog and your dog reacts defensively. So now for the rest of your dogs life it's to be shunned away from the public??? Common sense is a flower that doesn't grow in everyone's garden. Common sense should tell people not to approach strangers and their dogs!

I disagree Toni S.

A person's dog will always be protective and defensive of their pack leaders personal space. A dog that doesn't do well with other dogs may be trained and rehabilitated to tolerate other dogs.

We all have the responsibility to control our animals and especially when we take them on leash into public. I'm not sure where you live, but here there are few uninhabited places to take a dog for a walk.

Common sense dictates that people should not approach a dog that they don't know and touch the dog or the dog's pack leader. Children should be taught dog etiquette by their parents.

Google "yellow leash project".

Be part of the solution.

Not every dog owner has any idea of dog etiquette, socializing, proper correction, general obedience training.

Not every growling dog is a problem. Body language will tell you more of what's going on than just a growl. Ears up, tail up, stiff, beware.

Trainers and vets will tell you it's the owners who need training. Just had that conversation yesterday regarding Pitts (just an example of the conversation) the dogs aren't the problem (yet) but the owners are not educating them. We were brainstorming on having a "parenting" class without dogs, then start basic instruction. The vet was pleading for help so this is more of an issue than you might imagine. Even when a veterinarian strongly suggests training, owners brush it off.

Most people don't think they need basic obedience so they start off on the wrong foot and from there it can downhill., especially on bully and large breeds.

While you cant force anyone to have their dog trained, you can be the example and a source of information if asked.

Meanwhile, if the situation bothers you, avoid it as much as possible.

The example of the GSD jumping and being crazy is not hard to correct and many of us without knowing it can project fear which exasperates the whole situation.

Sorry, I ran off into the weeds but it's a big issue that has solutions.

"vicious snowflake" LOL!

" Children should be taught dog etiquette by their parents."

I totally agree.

Children should be taught people etiquette too, but in many families, kids are rambunctious and rarely corrected.. That's a whole 'other thread, but it is pertinent here.

Lack of etiquette does not mean that kids who don't know better deserve to get bitten and mauled when they are in a public park or on a public sidewalk.

Parents teach their children don't talk to strangers, it's not that much of a stretch to add or pet strangers dogs :)

Some pet owners spend more money and time training dogs than their children. Just an observation.

I believe pet owners need to keep their dogs away from children in a public park.

During the warm spell last week I took my 5 year old grandson to the park to kick soccer balls and hit a few baseballs. We were rudely interrupted by some jerk tossing a frisby across the field so his 100 lb dog could play fetch. A dog chasing a frisby doesn't care about a child who happens to be in the way. Fortunately respectful dog owners don't do that.

In no case do I believe that anyone, especially a child deserves to be bitten by a dog in a public place. It is the dog owners responsibility to control their dog.

My husband once had a 100 lb pit bull, a gentle dog. The dog was chained on the front porch while some repairs were being made to the backyard fencing, a couple of hour project. A man unknown to my husband or the dog was walking down the street and spoke to the dog. The dog wagged his tail and generally looked friendly until that man decided to step onto the porch and give him a hug. My husband heard the screaming and ran to see what was going on. The dog opened his mouth and basically head butted the guy resulting in a couple of punctures on his forehead. The dog did not maul him or even bite him, he simply warned him to step away.

Who's fault was that?

Whose fault was that? The man's fault. Who the heck walks up to a strange dog and hugs them? Maybe the man had some learning disabilities? I'd say the man got very lucky.

Watching shows like 'Cesar 911', I realize how little the general public understands their pets. I've been around dogs all my life, and I believe I have a very good feel for them.

My neighbors insist they have a vicious dog that would attack everything and everyone. It's a 12 yr old German Shepherd, who must have some severe issues. When in her yard (which adjoins mine), if I LOOK at the dog when she's barking at me (as she barks at everything), she immediately flees to the porch for safety. It's obvious the dog is very timid and afraid. But the owners continue to treat her as vicious, so I guess she'll die afraid. Poor dog.

The dog is certainly not to blame for what transpires...but poor owners and training probably are. Though some of what is above, is from absolute stupidity of third parties as well.

I have a lot of children in my neighborhood. I have two small dogs. When we are walking and children want to come pet the dogs, I use the opportunity to tell them how to approach, how to pet. My dogs like kids, so they are willing to have the children pet them. No hugging, no screaming, no running, they have to drop any toys, sticks, etc. that they are holding before they can approach the dogs. If the child asks politely if he/she can pet my dogs, I agree and then thank the child for asking. I'm trying positive reinforcement to give the child good skills in dealing with animals on the street. I have had parents tell me that their children who were afraid of dogs, lost that fear after making friends with my dogs. Children are fast and loud. Sometimes you don't have time to react, but if you are constantly aware of your surroundings, most times you can prevent problems from happening.

Murraysmom....Wasn't your cat Speckles attacked and killed by a neighbors dog just last year? You never asked for restitution for your vet bills? Never reported the incident? Never so much as got an apology from the dog owner?

You got it partly right. Yes, Speckles was killed by a neighbor's dog 2 or 3 years ago now. The man did pay the vet bill and was very sorry it happened. Of course not sorry enough to keep his dog on a leash at all times though. I did not report the incident. The man is in his 80's and this dog is what keeps him going. I really don't want to call the police on him.

Not to be wholly argumentative, but I feel cat owners should also maintain control of their animals and not allow them to roam freely. That keeps them out of the way of cars, dogs, and wild birds. Cats should only go out with full supervision, may or may not be on leash, and should never be roaming the neighborhood. Basically, the same rules apply as with children. Don't let them freely roam the neighborhood and keep your eyes on them.

Well....dbarron......I do agree with you. Except that Speckles was in my yard when she was attacked and killed. She had belonged to two other neighbors and was strictly an outdoor cat. I would love to have made her an indoor cat, but she wouldn't have any of that. She stayed almost exclusively in my yard, on my porch. For me, I wouldn't have an outdoor cat. For all the reasons you stated. My other cat, Rocket, has never been outside in all his 13-1/2 years.

Unfortunately life is messy. Cats roam, dogs get into trouble, people do dumb things. We just have to do the best we can with what we have.

That is so true. We control what we can..and can only hope for the rest.

Murraysmom, we are kindred spirits. I was also wondering, like dbarron, about Speckles being outside because I don't agree with outdoor cats. For all the reasons stated, but mostly for the BILLIONS of birds that are killed by cats every year. But I understand the limitations you faced with Speckles. Sorry she lost her life so tragically. As to your dogs, I do the exact same thing you do with the neighborhood children. I have 2 little dogs, and a gentle standard poodle and the kids love them (especially after they are groomed because they seem like living stuffed animals, lol). I see the kids around here being very conscious of asking permission to pet the dogs, and being very gentle. I guess that's not the norm, but I am impressed with their parents. And I try to reinforce that by thanking them for asking me.

Sleeper, that is great to hear. If everyone was able to do that, I think we could reduce the number of bad encounters. And yes it was tragic to lose Speckles, but I am thankful that she lived to be at least 14 years old. That is old for an "outside only" cat. I enjoyed taking care of her and she was very sweet and friendly. She had lost some hearing, I believe, because she was walking up my driveway away from the dog and I don't think she heard her coming. I took her to the vet right away and we thought she was going to be ok, but it turned out she had a broken pelvis and would not survive, so we let her go peacefully. Here is a picture of her hanging out in my backyard.

murraysmom Zone 6 OH

What a beauty! I'm so sorry for your loss. I admire your strength.

A few years ago I posted photos of what a stray cat did to my doors, floors and walls when I was trying to make her an indoor kitty. She won the battle by literally digging her way out and is happy to live both inside and outside. But trust me... when she wants out, I open the door! In some cases, you can only do the best that you can.

Beautiful cat. Sorry she had such a horrific ending, murraysmom.

This is the only pic I could find but you can see this is my laundry room, after DH took up the linoleum and removed the dry wall behind the dryer. That was just the beginning of her destruction. We forgave her and she's a happy old girl now. :)

Thanks, Mimi. Ahh, Moonie, you can really relate. She is a beauty. And I agree, they will do what they feel they need to do. :)

I have seen owners not caring less about their dogs and they let them off and then go chatting with friends and no idea what their dogs are doing, one dog was one to be watched and in fact it did attack a dog. Over and over dog attacks and the owner is so at fault. How a dog when my dad and I would go to this dog park the dog would be free and it for some reason would see my dad and jump on him and the owner ignored it and kept walking. I happened to hear her talking to others and telling them it was others fault the dog was like that. Not trained or socialized so many dogs are not and owners just let be free and not watch them. Dogs at all times should be where they can't attack anything and that it can happen, kids and like those two pups can run out and they just are puppies and all over so they need to make sure they can't get out of yards, put things so they can't dig or make sqeeze under them and out they go. Don't chain up a dog as they will attack. And that dog on the porch, you saw the person interested in your dog, you should have been with your dog as dogs are protective of property and owners,etc. And you should have grabbed your dog and told the person to not come near and be firm about it. Kids are not taught manners around dogs and they want to pat and put their faces right into the dogs face, huge mistake and they get bit and parents go beresk. Its the parents fault for not teaching them or asking can the child pat the dog. I would tell both parents and child that and one mom was so nice and she had her child ask and I said yes and because our male dog didn't like kids as their high pitched voices got to him and their bouncing around and so I would talk to him and put my hand on his head so he would know its okay and then I would say goodbye and leave so its not over done. You must respect your dog along with others around you. kathy