It is and has been extremely time consuming to do all this research. I agree, Angie's list can be misleading sometimes as well. The word of mouth referrals mean the most to me. Talk about your project with anyone you meet, you may be surprised and get a referral. All the contractors I was going to use offered to take me to see their work. That was very reassuring. I have to be honest here, the one contractor who works for himself was someone my husband found through my son's cub scout meeting...another parent! However, my husband was blabbing about our projects and that is how he met our contractor. :) I did visit a home to see his work, viewed albums of projects, and checked references. Our landscape guys is someone I met while out jogging. He was doing major work over at a neighbors, I found out he had done a few neighbors homes, and he also was great on pricing as he was just building his business. Talk about it and watch for any work going on in your own neighborhood. Overall I'm glad for the wait as it has given us plenty of time to plan, plan, plan, and that is actually extremely time consuming. To think we could just jump into it and get things going was short-sighted. Many things have 1-2 month lead times such as cabinetry and windows, or anything you must do custom. You really have to get very detailed as to what comes first in the project, so you know what materials you need by when, cash flow, and also try not to overlap contractors if you must use more than one.

Joseph is so true in saying that, the good contractors are busy, so usually they need to work you into their schedule, which may not be your schedule. Something to consider.

Allison - We just finished with our first interview with the contractor and his ballpark estimate was more than double what I was expecting. Otherwise, he sounds too good to be true. He thought there was nothing about our project that wasn’t doable. He seemed very confident. As he described his process, he is very organized and pro active. We liked his philosophy about seeing restoring homes as ‘stewardship’. He suggested retaining the floors and the windows.

He also suggested replacing our entire heating system and installing new ductwork and making the house tight, using a new technology I had never heard of. I have a feeling that is a major part of the job and one we weren’t even considering. We were thinking of adding new insulation. I did go looking for a contractor with a ‘green’ basis for his work, and I should have been prepared for that suggestion, since the major priority for ‘green construction’ is the reduction of heat loss and fuel use.

We are interested in adding an ‘in law’ space and so 60% of the estimate was for that.

So, I am feeling frustrated today. I guess I will have to have a few more conversations with him about adjustments we can make. I’ll have to research the heating system update options before talking to him again. Not my favorite thing to do.

He said it would be August before we could begin construction. I guess that is a reasonable amount of time to wait.

prairiemoon2 z6 MA:

Let me tell you why I like this guy. He didn't spend a day and a half preparing a detailed estimate for a job that was twice your budget. He's smart enough to know he'll go broke doing that. Since you're saying "we", he wouldn't take what's known in contractor vernacular as a "one legger", where one spouse backs out of or refuses to attend the meeting. You've shown a respect for his time and that's good. He is qualifying you and you're participating nicely. Keep it up and I'll bet you'll end up with a quality job that's on time and on budget.

JoCorlett - So he made a good first impression with you. [g] We are, of course, torn. I did like a number of things about him, but that price, is so high. Our heating system is steam by oil and we replaced the furnace about 8 years ago. Plus we have nice plaster walls on the first floor, which I suspect he would need to cut into to install ductwork through the house. That has to be a big part of the estimate. So, I do plan on talking to him about what the estimate would be without that part of the project.

The part of the estimate that would be an 'in law' arrangement, would mean tearing down a detached garage and building a new garage with a living space over it. That was 60% of the estimate. We had a ballpark estimate of half of his estimate about 10 years ago. I'm wondering if he's more expensive, or did everything actually double in cost in 10 years?

The next step of the process, is a second meeting, where he brings his team with him. The designer, the electrician, plumber, etc. to make some first design decisions and flesh out the estimate more. I like that part of his process. He explained that the second meeting is still part of the 'courting phase'. He also said, we wouldn't start construction until August, and it would take four months. He hoped we could arrange to live off the property for that time, because it would speed things up. He has been in business for 30 years.

We also found him very honest. I had not looked him up on Angie's List, but he told me himself that he was on Angie's List only because one potential client had a bad experience and posted about it, and admitted that the problem had been his own poor communication in that situation. They had only gone through that second meeting and she had not contacted him about her discontent, just had posted about him instead. I did look it up this morning to read it, and she complained that his methodical process was too slow for her and his estimate was high. So, not a complaint about his expertise at all and he posted online with a satisfactory response to her complaint. He said he wished she had contacted him, so he could have cleared up a few things and that she could have had the opportunity to find out that while not infallible, he was very accountable.

I would love to take the next step in the process, but I'm thinking the estimate is just going to be too high and I don't want to waste his time. I'm also thinking I should interview a couple more contractors, but first, I think I will ask him, if leaving out the heating system redo, will make enough difference in his estimate. I also want to speak with clients that have worked with him and hopefully see a project he is working on or finished.

Today I am making a pros/cons list of the remodel itself, to clarify what is most important to us. And with a price that high for making the modifications to this house, we are re-considering whether we should just move instead. So we are taking the value of our house and adding that potential cost of renovating it and looking at real estate for that price, to see what is available.

Prairiemoon it sounds like he is a true professional. I agree with Joseph, that he didn't waste everyone's time involved in a providing a detailed budget when he was comfortable enough to ballpark it for you. Our first contractor we gave our budget, for various items (drywall, master bath, garage apt.) He knew our budget and once he started pricing he should've realized immediately he wasn't able to do it for us in that budget. I'd say we wasted 2 months in that process, he lost the work and we lost availability of other contractors. Bad experience. Do you have a set budget or flexibility? That affects things. We have a set budget so we don't end up over investing in our home. If we must go over in an area, something gets cut (or more likely just lesser quality).

However my first mistake was not getting comparable quotes. I recommend at least three, to get a true idea on where this contractor lands on the scale of things. He could be the most premium guy out there. Yes, he may do great work. If you can afford it great. There are plenty of honest, skilled contractors who don't charge the premium. I would seriously question why he would want to replace a system not in need of repair. Is it really green to throw out a fully functional and relatively new HVAC system to put in a 'greener' system? Seems really wasteful IMO. And like a major upsell. I have had a furnace go out, one (high end) company came out to look at it and told me I needed a new furnace basically. I got 3 quotes for that job. The American Standard guy found I only needed a $15 part, he had in his truck, installed it the day I got the estimate and it ran perfect for the 5 yrs. I lived there. This was proof positive, get 3 quotes. I don't know why for this reno I forgot that important lesson at the start. I won't do it again, it has cost us a lot in terms of time/money.

I would research options. If you really feel that new technology for heating is important and vested, consider it I suppose. But it seems his focus should be on putting the money into the other areas important to you. IMO.

Allison - Did you have each part of your remodeled budgeted on it’s own? In other words, you knew how much you expected the garage apartment to be, or the master bath to be?

That’s a shame to have wasted all that time.

We didn’t have any idea what to expect our project to cost. We do feel like you do, that in order not to ‘over improve’ our property, we should keep it as low as possible. How did you determine how much you could improve it and how far was too far?

We are just vaguely guessing that we should be able to add an in-law apartment because there are four homes in a 2 block area around us, that have done that.

I think the reason for suggesting the new technology on the heat system, is his mind set is, to bring the house to the ‘twentieth century’ and to create measurable savings in energy usage, that would also allow for ducts to be added that would provide a/c in the summer too. I have no idea how much we could potentially save in energy use doing that. I’m compiling a list of questions to ask him before I call him back.

I doubt that anything he could explain is going to interest me in putting in a new heating/ac system.

I told him when he was here, that he was the first contractor we had met with and we were going to get more estimates.

Hi Prairiemoon, yes we did have each project budgeted on it's own. We gauged this several ways. One, we have remodeled DIY (full kitchen remodel, IKEA, painting, drywall, basic electric like installing ceiling fans, basic plumbing like changing out toilets, etc.) and also hired out contractors in the past (full bath redo using marble, hardwood floors refinished, new masonry and rebuild of concrete entry steps to home, ductwork and A/C added to a home). These projects gave us a base cost. My husband is pretty good at estimating materials and labor costs, generally speaking. In some areas, we were quite off. Mainly I think due to cost of plumbing in our master bath (we had no experience with this kind of major plumbing). However we were pretty close with most! We purchased the home only after thinking of what work we would need to do to feel comfortable here, and the budget for that to make sure we weren't over investing.

Being we purchased a new (old) home, we had seen pretty much everything available in this neighborhood, were able to see what homes were being sold for, and also more importantly, what the homes ACTUALLY sold for. This gave us a basis for what our new home here will eventually sell for. Prices are very unlikely to decrease in my neighborhood.

Regarding the A/C, do you have A/C now? If you don't have A/C, that could be a potential turn-off for future buyers, so in that case I may consider it. Retrofitting for ductwork is a big job.

Our guesthouse is over our detached garage also. I really wanted to do an addition to add on to our living space, and never did get an estimate for that. I was told it would be out of our budget so I didn't dream any further. I would rather that than the space over the garage, but then you get into new foundations, and it just seemed too complicated. Instead we had to replace a sagging roof on our detached garage, and we thought, let's add space there! We had to put a new roof on anyway. It doesn't seem like it would be a huge jump, but it is. I'll just tell you our estimates were from $40-$70,000. We went with the $50 range to give you an idea, I hope this helps you. It's really like building a small house, though it's small, you still have plumbing, HVAC, electric, drywall, paint, etc. We thought we could do it for $30, but we were way off. We are even re-using my current kitchen (that I'm replacing) in the space, so that's not even in the costs.

Sorry, I took so long to get back to you, Allison, crazy weekend. :-)

This is very helpful info. I can see that we will benefit from figuring out what each part of the project should cost. Having no experience with DIY, I can’t see that we would be good at estimating, but I don’t see why we couldn’t price out the materials and find out what labor is going for in the area.

We have lived here a long time and have only hired a contractor for a kitchen redo and he added new fixtures to one bath, had floors refinished, and we did the painting and one room we hired a wallpaper professional. He did a much better job than we could do. Very precise and 15 years later, it looks as good as new, but with one small scratch we made when moving something.

I spent time this weekend, checking out home estimates in our neighborhood. I am aware of four houses in our block that have added a second living space. Three of them are over garages. So it’s been interesting to see how much those homes are valued at and how much their taxes went up.

I forgot to check to see if any of them sold since those renovations, to see what people paid for them. Two homes within a couple of blocks of us have been torn down and new homes built and those sold for about 40% higher than ours is valued at. So, I’m starting to feel more comfortable that we can remodel without fear of over investing.

Prices here will probably only decrease in the case of an overall downturn in the economy and the market. I am now tuned back into what is going on in the market and will be following what the upcoming spring market will be doing.

No, we don’t have a/c. We have a whole house fan, that we love and would not be without, but that only helps when the outside temperature is lower than inside. We use window air conditioners. I’m not sure what area you are in, but I don’t think whole house a/c is common here.

Plus, with a hot water heat system, we have radiators and piping, but not ductwork. We would have to change over our entire heat system to put in whole house a/c and install ductwork so we are reluctant to do that. We have real plaster walls on the first floor and I’m not sure if they would have to disturb them to install ductwork. Unless there is some other way that is 'ductless' that I don't know about, I think we will be crossing that off our list.

We already put a new roof on our garage, about 8 years ago. It wasn’t that costly. The garage floor is cracked and one contractor awhile ago, said that there is not a good enough foundation to build onto it, so it would have to come down and start from scratch.

So, your estimate was for just adding to the top of an existing garage, ours would be from scratch for new garage with new living space. And we have no current kitchen to use in the space.

This has been very enlightening. Thank you!

"...I don’t see why we couldn’t price out the materials and find out what labor is going for in the area."

From a contractor perspective, potential customers that do this add their names to my list of people not to do work for. My overhead, markup, profit, and supplier discounts are no one else's business.

40% higher sale price for a brand new house isn't a shocker. It's why people do teardowns instead of remodels. The value of a brand new home with all new systems and built with taller celings and other modern design details will always outstrip that of the 40 year old home next to it that had the same amount of money (or more!) spent on it during a remodel. It's why a teardown should always be considered when a home remodel approaches 30% of the home's existing space. The money goes further.

"My overhead, markup, profit, and supplier discounts are no one else's business."

Boy, you'd have a hard time finding work around here. Those are perfectly ordinary and customary line items in a contract in this part of the world (Boston), and I'd be very uncomfortable working with a GC who chose to hide that information. Why play games with the customer? A model where you charge what stuff actually costs and add profit and overhead makes for clear communication and matching expectations-- and in my experience projects that run smoothly without bad surprises on either side. I've had several occasions where disconnects in pricing details have revealed underlying misunderstandings of the scope of work and averted disasters downstream.

There's a difference in how a lump sum contract is done vs. a time and materials, or, in the larger building world vocabulary, cost plus. Lump sum rarely breaks down the project. Cost plus always does. Lump sum is generally for simpler budget projects, and cost plus for more complex custom ones.

rwiegand:

I'm constantly hearing about how potential customers can't get contractors to give them bids. I like to expose to consumers as to how they may be inadvertently telling contractors not to bid their jobs.

When you go into a restaurant, you don't say, "I saw T-Bone steak at Publix for $3.99 a pound and these people want to charge me $27.00?" When she had her corporate job, my wife used to spend several hundred dollars a month at the beautician, not that she needed it of course, but she knows how much a bottle of hair dye costs.

Why are contractors singled out for itemizing their costs? I'll tell you why. So the type of customer I don't want can make an inaccurate comparison between what his boss pays him and what he thinks my hourly rate is. Let me assure you, this type of customer ALWAYS thinks I charge too much money. The customers I want don't do this. I've been profitable and private for over 30 years and my customers love me, so I'd say the marketplace has spoken on my behalf.

This is how we talk about customers like this when they're not around.

JCorlett - I guess I am not seeing why you have a problem with a home owner estimating the costs of materials and local labor costs for their projects. And I don’t see where that relates to the discussion you linked to between contractors who were unhappy with their interactions with some homeowners. I didn’t see one example in that conversation about a homeowner having budgeted what each part of the job could be and a contractor having a hard time with that.

I did though think, that the examples in that link didn’t exactly make the contractors look any better than the problematic homeowners.

Like Rwiegand, I’m also in the Boston area, so evidently, that’s not going to be a problem here.

And in the planning stages of a project, in my case, I need a budget. And I want some basis for comparing the estimates of different contractors, but also the cost of DIY and being your own contractor and hiring subcontractors, which is always another option.

All I can think of, is that you are charging higher prices than other contractors in your area. Which is fine, maybe you are technically more capable and you do a great job and people pay a premium for having you on their project, but why would that be information you don’t want the homeowner to be aware of?

SWheeler - I guess I don’t agree with automatically tearing down and rebuilding because a remodel is 30% of the existing space. I have seen the new ‘replacement homes’ in my area, but they don’t appeal to me. I prefer older homes for various reasons.

When that 30% remodel cost is 85%95% of the cost of new construction, you kinda get the point of the better return for dollars invested.

"All I can think of, is that you are charging higher prices than other contractors in your area. Which is fine, maybe you are technically more capable and you do a great job and people pay a premium for having you on their project, but why would that be information you don’t want the homeowner to be aware of?"

I am technically more capable, I do a great job, and people pay a premium for me. I most assuredly want my potential customers to have that information, in fact that's the very value that I sell which can't be seen on a list. What my customers are not entitled to are my supplier discounts or to even know if they exist. It's no secret how much most material costs, so have at it potentials. It's just been my repeated experience that figurer-outers are not my type of customer.

If you're wondering why you aren't getting bids, look in the mirror.

Prairiemoon, I live near Indianapolis, I've been in the Midwest all my life but it is common for people to have ducted A/C. I have heard of a ductless a/c system, that goes in your attic but I never looked into it enough to know what it is called, but that may be an option. If you aren't worried about it, or it's not common, then maybe forget it.

If you are re-doing a whole foundation, I might consider an addition on to you current home vs. a second story on a garage. One, being stairs for an elderly parent. Two, I would think it would add a more significant value to your home by having( for instance) a 5 bedroom vs. a three bedroom plus two bedroom over the garage. I don't know, but I would speak to a realtor the best return for the money.

As for my contractors, I have had a few give me estimates very detailed with allowances (for materials) x labor costs. These were larger guys who had formulas they could just plug in, and who did large jobs so this was easy for them. My garage contractor is doing a lump sum. I am not as comfortable with this, but it was one of the best estimates we received that we felt was fair. However, for instance, we asked if we find a good deal on flooring, if he will credit us the difference for what he had budgeted. He will, but we we don't have line item budgets and I find it frustrating, and it gives a feeling like he is hiding something. It's not like we don't want to pay him for his time, and he has told us his percentage, but why not just be transparent about allowances for things like framing, electric, plumbing, etc. I think it's weird. However he will not charge us if the project goes over the amount set, unless there is a serious deviation from the plan (which he has mapped out to a T). I don't know if this is typical. A deviation results in a 'change order' and incurs additional cost due to time/planning/labor to do the changes.

Now, another thing to consider is if you have one person doing a job, vs. multiple. If one person is coordinating everything, and they have the all labor and materials here, it's not hard for them to jump over to another room or project. For instance, framing out a bathroom, then moving on to framing a deck. They have all the framers and materials here, so it's easy for them to get too. So you may get a better price.

The other contractor I'm using gives a lump labor price by project. I then asked him for a general cost of basic materials per project (drywall, screws, etc.) Then materials are up to me to purchase (or he purchases, I reimburse). I like this best as I can plan and analyze my budget easiest this way, if I need to cut costs, I need to shop (counters, vanity) materials carefully. Just relaying my limited experiences.

JCorlett - I hate to break it to you, but the majority of homeowners who plan remodels are well aware that contractors and subcontractors receive supplier discounts. In my area, many contractors pass along those supplier discounts to the home owner.

And while you have learned from experience that a home owner who is trying to have his share of cost controls over a project, doesn’t fit with the way you want to do business, I would guess there are many homeowners who would feel the same way about a contractor who takes your approach.

And I’m not having any trouble getting bids.

Allison - I did speak to the contractor again and asked him about the heating system change and the a/c part of that. He is suggesting a Ductless Mini Split [Heat Pump] type system and that making that a part of our remodel adds about $20,000. to the cost. I haven’t read up on it yet and have a lot of questions.

You make a good point about having stairs for someone who would struggle with that. On our lot, we would have either room for a garage with living space or an addition, but not both an addition and a garage.

We haven’t gotten to the point of a detailed estimate with this contractor, but I am under the impression that the next meeting would produce that type of estimate.

I also see the value in transparency. Sounds like with the contractor you hired for the garage job, he has offered you a significant benefit, by agreeing not to charge you for going over budget in the absence of change orders. Not having line item budgets seems like a fair trade off for no budget over runs, isn’t it? Especially if you believe his ‘lump sum’ estimate was the best you received. I’m sure you saw his work before you gave him the job and talked to previous clients, right? Would it save you a lot of time researching a line budget?

I can see how someone having charge of the whole job could save money in the way you suggest, over hiring subcontractors. I guess I’d have to compare estimates for both ways.

Hearing about the different arrangements that you have with different contractors, I wonder if contractors, in general, are flexible with working with clients in different ways, or if many take the approach JCorlett takes, and have one way that they will work with clients? Guess I will find that out as I go along.

Thanks for sharing…it always helps to get an idea of how this process works for others.

Contractors that have learned how to make money at their job and not be bankrupt in two years time generally follow Joe's lead. 1 20K job doesn't have the same overhead of insurance, car payment, and other overhead as 10 2K jobs . It does have 10x less hassle. So, that 2K job needs to actually increase to a 3K job if the contractor knows how to properly run his business. A lot don't. And they fold and work for others because they forget ''profit'' as a line item in their estimating. And they let the customer run their business instead of the guy doing the work.

SWheeler - I'm sorry but, I'm not sure why this thread has taken a turn away from the original subject? And who is it that you are directing your comment to? Is anyone on this thread trying to run Joe's business? Are we still talking about cutting costs when remodeling?

Let me say a little more on this subject. I'm happy to have an opportunity to learn what a contractor's perspective is, I just feel that the way Joe made a couple of his comments and the link that he added to his comment, to read what contractor's say behind the back's of homeowners, puts the homeowner/contractor in an adversarial relationship. That instead of being up front with a customer that has it all wrong when they approach a contractor about a job, they give them 3x higher an estimate? While I could see why some of the interactions with clients would be difficult to deal with, I just think the contractors on that thread could have handled it better.

And I see from another thread at the top of the remodeling forum, more complaints from contractors about home owners wanting to save costs? I guess I would like to think that some contractors have taken some time to think about the homeowner's side of things long enough, to figure out how expensive it is to remodel and how difficult it is to meet that expense for many people.

I don't believe I've posted anything to suggest that I'm out to low ball any contractor. Or that I've treated any contractor unfairly. So why is my thread that is asking legitimate questions about keeping costs low, turning into a criticism of my own efforts to get a handle on costs and homeowners in general?

"This is how we talk about customers like this when they're not around."

Made for a good read ^^ I like the part where they say, "at least im not a drywaller or roofer or... etc" lol!

For what I see, getting a quote 'could' be done in two ways, they could give an estimate at the start then turn in all reciepts and clock all hours spent on the job and it be more than what they would have quoted or they can just quote the job and thats it. They will probably get the job done quicker anyhow if they aren't paid per hour and honestly trying to micromanage everything is difficult.

In my day job line of work (biotechnology) I need to submit very detailed budgets when I'm trying to get work that specify my costs to the last decimal point, so that is in no way something that is restricted to construction. I very often have to explain why my costs are different than others, and I do it gladly because it is another opportunity to sell. That said, I don't work cheap, and I don't expect anyone else to. I do, however, expect to buy products and services with my eyes open, and will choose to work with people who interact with me as an intelligent, rational being rather than as a mark to be scored off of. When I ask a roofer why he wants to charge me 3x more than some other guy to install the same shingles it's because I want to know--there may well be a very good reason, and I may well end up choosing the more expensive roofer. Or it may be arbitrary, in which case I don't. The number of times I've ended up with the lowest bidder is minuscule, there's almost always something dodgy going on to produce that low bid it if's an outlier. And I often don't get bids if I know the people involved and understand the market. I have some folks I don't even ask for a price in advance because I know it will be fair. When I'm doing something where I know nothing then getting bids seems essential to understanding the market and making an intelligent choice. In the home improvement market those bids often vary by 2-3 fold--on repaving my driveway I had bids of $2600, $5500, $6000, and $9000 for allegedly the same work (I first got two-- the high and low, so went back for others). The $2600 guy was lowballing me and hadn't read the spec, and wasn't going to do what I wanted. I don't know what the $9K guy was thinking, he wouldn't return my calls. I went with the $6K guy because he was the more confidence inspiring. Was that the right price? I'm not sure. Was I a low-baller because I didn't pay $9K? I really don't think so. I did get a nice job done, and I'm satisfied.

I'm very struck by the difference I see in working with companies that do large commercial projects for me, building out lab space and those I deal with at home. Sometimes, because I'm spending other people's money I'm required to do competitive bidding on the lab projects, I've never had bids come in that differ by more than 5% on multi-million dollar projects. The bids are routinely very specific, match the specifications exactly, are completely transparent in their itemization, and generally get carried out on time and at or under budget. That's a rarity when trying to get almost anything done at home. I'm the same person, I try hard to bring the same level of attention and detail to generating my specifications, but with rare exceptions (the folks I gladly hire again), the results are quite different.

Rwiegand - I don’t see anything about your approach that I don’t agree with. Or that any contractor would find fault with, but, then again, I’m not a contractor. Have you had any contractors that were not happy with the way you go about getting bids on your jobs?

You have way more experience with remodeling than I do. [g]

When we did our major house remodel/addition/energy retrofit I talked seriously with probably 10 builders in a sort of "pre qualification" step prior to asking three for a bid, including one I paid to consult on "value engineering" the plans from the architect. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't asking anyone who I wouldn't have been comfortable awarding the job to do the work of preparing a detailed estimate/bid. A couple turned out to be philosophical mismatches--I know they do stellar work, but I can't afford perfection-- , a couple couldn't accommodate the schedule we needed and only one took one look at my very detailed specification document and said "I don't work that way". One of the three I asked for bids got a large commission and dropped out, and the other two submitted very competitive proposals (competitive, most decidedly not cheap!-- we were well over $300/sf with me doing most of the finish work myself). I'd happily hire either of them for a future project, choosing between them was extremely difficult.

Rwiegand - I feel out of my element entirely. It’s a little overwhelming. I’d rather be gardening. [g]

Your project sounds a little more involved than mine, but if we do everything I would like to do, it could be getting up there. Where did you find 10 builders names to interview? And you started with an architect? Value engineering?

I wonder if you have posted on GW about your experiences while you were going through your remodel? I’d love to read about it.

I’m holding off on asking for a detailed estimate with the first contractor I spoke with but I did ask him for references and if we could see his work. Although I’m not sure if I should have asked him that unless I was sure I was going with him, or if it helps me decide.

I guess what I should do next is speak with more contractors. I have two recommendations from people we know that were happy with them, but that’s it.

How long did it take you to go from your first decision to remodel to hiring a contractor?

A little thread drift is a good thing.

I just want to add one thing to this conversation and forgive me if it comes across in the wrong way.

You have mentioned using your children to finish the work b/c they have experience. I am all for supporting family in any way possible but I feel I must mention that all the time and effort your child spends working on your project is taking away from their life and I can only hope that you factor that in.

My husband and I are fairly skilled DIYers and we have both, on different instances, been asked to help family or friends with their side projects.

While we, of course, always want to help the people we care about, it takes an extreme toll on our personal lives. My husband being gone every night for 3-4 hours, not seeing the kids, not spending time with me, etc to help you with your project costs my family a LOT!! We would never dream of charging you, dear friend, for the time but we also don't want to be taken advantage of.

Make no mistake about it. Time is money and if your family member or friend is spending all this personal time to help you with your project, they ARE losing time in other areas of their life. Whether that needs to be compensated in a monetary fashion or a more relaxed timeline fashion is on a case by case basis.

What I will say though is to please don't expect a professional level job and timeline from a family member when you are offering no compensation.

Texas Gem - Great point! Definitely should be a consideration. In our circumstances, it fits perfectly for the child with the skills to help out and it will be a good thing for them as well as us. And they are not married, so we are not keeping them away from a family.

And another thing to consider, our home, eventually will be passed down to the kids and keeping up the value of it, will benefit all of them. So we try to ask each to contribute what they can, so no one child ends up feeling like they're the only one that helps out. And they all feel very good about helping out.

And compensation can be measured in many ways. :-)

Let's say I'm your general contractor and I've foolishly agreed to let your kids (or anyone else) be my painting sub. Let's say my last draw is due on your job, but you won't pay it because the carpet isn't laid. The carpet isn't laid because your kid hasn't painted yet, despite my repeated calls for him to do so. It's unlikely you'll sign a change order authorizing my genuine painting sub, if I can schedule him now. So it looks like I've painted myself into a nice cash-flow corner trying to save a customer money.

Joseph,
That issue has already been brought up. The OP doesn't plan on trying to fit anything into the GC's schedule.
So in your example, they'd allow the GC to install the carpet and consider his job 'done'. Then paint after the fact.
Any DIY would be after the GC is done, paid and gone.
Or in the case of demolition, before the GC even starts.

"Then paint after the fact."

And kick a bucket of paint over onto the new carpet and blame the contractor.

I used to share a house with a carpet layer in my single days. "We're the last guys in."

There is an order to construction. Disregard it at your own peril.

Rwiegand - I wonder if some builders are better at ‘value engineering’ than others. It seems to me something you’re either good at or not. Would reusing hardwood floors and existing windows fall into this category of reducing expenses, or is that just another layer? I didn’t know ‘value engineering’ existed, sounds great.

I’ve already mined my field of people who have done renovations and only have two names to try.

So what did you end up doing for energy conservation? And are you happy you did it? I assume it was an expensive part of your project?

Thanks, it’s very helpful to understand a process that worked out successfully for someone.

Thanks Gregg.

JCorlett - we're doing hardwood not carpeting and I can't remember ever knocking over a can of paint in any painting job we've ever done. We all paint in the family and do a decent job.

Regardless, you seem to want to invent some situation where the homeowner ends up the bad guy, otherwise, I would think you could consider the possibility that the average homeowner and the average contractor are smart enough and considerate enough, to work something out that works for both of them.

Joseph,
While that may be the 'ideal' order, there are tons of situations where painting happens without replacing the floor afterwards. I repainted my house when I moved in and guess what, I didn't replace the flooring after. Then I repainted it 5 years later and guess what ... it's the same flooring.
And in what world would the GC get blamed for something that the son does after the GC's task is finished and he's been paid and has moved on to a different job? That's like me blaming the person who built my house 30 years ago if I spilled paint on my floor yesterday. It makes absolutely no sense.

Yes, we spent what many would regard as crazy money to make a very comfortable, energy efficient house. As the memory of writing the checks fades into the background we're very happy with the outcome. We did a "semi-deep" energy retrofit on a 1600 sf 1952 garrison colonial, and added about 1100sf that gave us a first floor master, new kitchen, and large living area as, well as an attached garage. In the process we converted the exterior to a passing good version of English Arts and Crafts style.

For the old part of the house we stripped the shingles, wrapped the exterior in 2" of rigid foam insulation, rain screen, and new shingles; open cell spray foam in the attic to condition attic space for a new furnace/AC unit; all new windows (not "replacement" windows), including re-sizing and moving them as appropriate; blown in cellulose in the wall cavities; open cell spray foam in the rim joists; rigorous sealing everywhere; 2" of rigid foam on the basement walls, then a 2x4 stud wall with fiberglass batts; new windows in the basement.

The new addition was done with panelized construction that included closed cell foam in the stud bays; wrapped the exterior with 1" of rigid foam; sealed religiously every possible penetration; did the basement with 2" of closed cell foam on the outside as a barrier layer, 2" of rigid foam inside, then 2x4 walls with fiberglass batts; 4" of rigid foam under the slab, and spray foam in the rim joists; R60 blown in cellulose in the attic. Put in a new high efficiency furnace/AC and energy recovery heat exchanger for ventilation. We also put solar panels in that give us about 30% of our electricity. We had to pull gas in about 400 ft from the street to replace the oil furnace (and give me a proper range for cooking!)

The house is extremely comfortable, and uses about 20% the energy it did before, though it is now significantly larger. According to mailings from the gas company we have the "most efficient" house in the area. I'm not sure I'll live long enough to see the full payback, but houses in our area are routinely occupied for hundreds of years, and we've built a house that should last and continue to pay back for a long time.

Rwiegand - You are an unusual home owner. I can only imagine how painful it was to write those checks. [g] 20% of the energy you used to use, is an amazing outcome though.

I would suspect that you may see payback sooner than you anticipate because energy can only become more expensive. I hope your kids appreciate the value of what you will be leaving for them.

I am sure we will not be able to afford going that route. But, I do want to explore reducing the energy we use in whatever ways, we can afford. More insulation for sure. Your solar panels interest me and I am very surprised that the ‘green’ contractor we met with never mentioned solar.

Since I live in the Boston area too, I was going to ask you if you would mind passing along any names of builders, etc., that I could check out. I think I have messaging allowed on my 'your houzz' page. Either way, thanks for the information.

Very interesting story of what you did with your house, thank you for sharing.

:-)

"And in what world would the GC get blamed for something that the son does after the GC's task is finished and he's been paid and has moved on to a different job? That's like me blaming the person who built my house 30 years ago if I spilled paint on my floor yesterday. It makes absolutely no sense."

greg_2015:

I agree, it doesn't make sense, but it happens to contractors all the time. You can have a contract signed in the blood of their first born male child explaining why their idea is bad and you're not responsible, but when it blows up in their face, you were the professional that was supposed to save them from themselves. At least that's what they tell everyone on the internet.

I had 5 gallons of paint spilled onto a customer's carpet once. Trying to grab their rambunctious dog who had escaped her bedroom. (Lever handles and a smart Labrador.) 5 gallons of blood red paint. On light beige carpet. With dog tracks through the house, and my tracks from chasing him. The bucket was evidently faulty and cracked when the dog knocked it over. No drop cloth will contain that! It was an almost end of the job walkthrough for me, and yes, the customer was the one who was going to be doing the painting, and who had purchased the paint. And it was her dog. And her bedroom door. She got new carpet. Not my fault, but it was on my watch, so I took care of it. Dogs have to go in a yard or pen now, or be locked in with a keyed lock. You live, you learn. It's always the contractor's fault in the customer's eyes.

Having just finished the Total remodel of our house I will offer this. Define the scope of the job and then stay within those limits. It is funny (?) how job creep can get you. As to your doing some of it and having your son do the trim etc, I think will depend upon the contractor you employ to get this project done. He may not care and let you get in the middle and in the way or it may not suit him at all. He has to make a living and be able to plan and execute his work. On the diy side, I looked at insulating myself and found the installed cost from an insulting company to be less than I could buy the material. I was shocked...and pleased.

I guess I would say do the demo down to the studs yourself, if you must. Then let the contractor do the rebuild to the point of finish sheetrock. Then you can paint and trim yourself.

Also, you have to understand that you are going to be living in a construction zone. It will be dirty, dusty and frustrating. I think you best bet is to find the right guy to do the work, hire him and get out of his way. It will be done faster, better and quite possibly cheaper than what you will end up with doing some of it. That all depends upon finding the right contractor. We were fortunate and had a tremendously skilled guy, who is now building my new shop/garage.

Sophie, seriously?!? Did the customer actually blame you or did you just immediately step up and offer to pay for a new carpet? I can't even imagine what the customer's argument was. Unless they didn't believe that it was the dog that knocked the paint over or thought that you let the dog out.

jackfre, "and found the installed cost from an insulting company to be less than I could buy the material."
I guess the money savings was worth the verbal abuse that they heaped on you? ;)
(I realize it's a typo)

greg_2015:

Respectfully, we don't make this stuff up. We are speaking from experience. We take beatings that we don't deserve all the time and if you don't you won't be in business for long. You keep them to a minimum and move on.

There are horrors stories on both sides (ex - lousy contractors and poor craftsmanship)...

Prairiemoon- I hope by now you've met with some contractors and arent letting the negatives scare you. I think it's great hearing honest opinions/advice, esp from the pros.

Since you're doing so much work, I would almost suggest (if it's even possible) having the contractor do a smaller space first (see how it goes) and then let the person/company complete the rest of the work assuming all goes well the first time around. In other words, if you have 50k worth of work to be done and a bathroom is est to be 10k (I'm just throwing numbers out for example sake) maybe get something in writing that says- lets do the 10k bathroom first, once completed then you as the homeowner can decide if you want to move forward with the rest of the work.

I would be afraid to sign a contract on a huge job if I hadn't used the same contractor previously and/or couldn't see any of the past work done. I would rather start small, see how a smaller project goes, and how working with the person is, and then deciding about the rest of the work.

MrsShayne - Actually, I’m not feeling negative but a little overwhelmed at the moment. :-)

I like your suggestion, to work on a smaller part of the project with a contractor to see how it goes. I suppose there are drawbacks to doing that, but it does seem like signing a large contract with someone you have no experience with, could be risky.

I have already asked the one contractor we have met with, for references and some way to see his past work. I’m still waiting for him to get back to me. I would assume that seeing past work will be something that is available for most contractors.

I would assume that seeing past work will be something that is available for most contractors. Maybe, maybe not. Four months after your contractor is finished with his job, are you going to let people in your house so that they can see what kind of job he did? Some people will, some people won't and some would but don't have enough time available to accommodate that type of visit.

" Some people will, some people won't and some would but don't have enough time available to accommodate that type of visit."

One more reason contractors really need to qualify their customers. I bust my butt bringing you an on-time and on-budget job and you can't return a 15-minute visit a couple of times so I can keep doing it? We weren't right for each other. I should have known.

I know this is an old thread, and am not agile enough with gardenweb to know how to search threads to see how this turned out, but I am curious to know -- prairiemoon2, what did you end up doing for the remodel and were you happy with the contractor? We just completed a basic bathroom remodel (replaced things), and are now hoping to move on to a larger bathroom remodel (moving things). (Also zone 6 Boston area). Thank you!