You create a greater insulation challenge with a cathedral ceiling, meaning more complexity and expense.

I'd rather increase the ceiling height and do a fancy-smancy ceiling treatment rather than go with a cathedral ceiling.

If operating costs are a focus, then the less room volume that you have to condition, the lower the utility costs. An 8' flat ceiling is cheaper to condition than a 9' which in turn is cheaper than a 10' and so on. The more insulation you have, the greater the persistence of the conditioned air in the room.

We are building our retirement home. Kitchen/dining area and open to a 15 x 23 great room. Our ceiling will be vaulted (13 ft at peak). It is my understanding that cathedral ceilings are higher than vaulted. I have lived in a 1902 two story home for 42 Years, 9 ft on the main floor and 8 ft upstairs. I would recommend a vaulted, but nothing higher. (Hope I am happy with mine:) We are having Having lowE and a large ceiling fan also. I would not think a vaulted or even a cathedral ceiling with these options would have outrageous electric or heating bills. If that were the case, I don't think they would be continuing to build them.

I have a cathedral ceiling in my family room. I personally LOVE the look of it. It just adds a little something extra to the space and allowed me to get a big pretty chandelier for the room. Can't speak to the cost of heating and cooling as we have yet to move in, but I do know our ceiling has higher r value ( I think that's what it's called) insulation than other parts of the house. The rest of the first floor has 9 ft ceilings. Here's a pic.

Here's an article on the engineering involved.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/qa/framing-cathedral-ceiling.aspx

Here's an article on the more detailed insulation requirements.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/how-build-insulated-cathedral-ceiling

It shouldn't come as a surprise that there is an cost versus aesthetics dynamic in place.

We had a 20 x 20 master bedroom w/cathedral ceiling at our old home and although it had this "airy" feeling to it, we had difficulty heating and cooling the room. But something to consider is that we had standard builder grade windows which probably didn't help which heating and cooling.

We are in central NC in a very, very tight house without LowE windows. Our family room/kitchen has a vaulted ceiling with windows on the south, glass doors on the west, clerestory windows on the north, covered porch on the south and west. Our electric bills are very low. The key is insulating and air sealing.

I'm not a fan in general. They seem energy inefficient, and typically don't yield the cozy factor that I like in a space I'm going to spend a lot of time in. I would prefer a tray with cove lighting, or some other ceiling treatment.

By far, though, my favorite is a barrel vault. There's a wonderful feeling about a curved ceiling...maybe it's more like how the sky appears. But it gives a whole different sensation than a peak. Before we built, we looked at so many houses, show houses, model homes, etc. One home had a barrel over the entire living room and the space felt so wonderful...I didn't want to leave. Much softer than a peak, but still dramatic.

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We went with a barrel vault in the DR and it feels great. Ours has the cove lighting like the one above. One of these days, I'll be painting clouds up there....

The one exception was when I was in a house inspired by Cotswold Cottages that was built in the 20s. The LR/library had a cathedral ceiling but they used queen post trussing which brought the ceiling down to a more livable scale. Though I wouldn't want to get up there and dust those beams...

See timber frame trusses here.

Large ceilings add a lot of value to a home. Domes, barrels, vaults, etc. add character to a home but without knowing your style it's hard to say. What I would highly recommend you focus on given this is your retirement home is the total cost of ownership and not just a mortgage or the initial outlay of cash. Spray foam insulation for example cost more initially but given you can reduce the tonnage on your HVAC/Mechanical systems along with enjoy less expensive utility bills the payback is very real. Your home will also be cleaner (not outside air in your attic to be sucked into your home each time your HVAC kicks on) and more comfortable. You could also potentially move some of your mechanical equipment to the attic which could free up some space downstairs. Having an attic which is clean (storage) and doesn't bake or freeze it's contents is highly valuable as well. Good luck.

I am doing a two story living room, and I absolutely hate them. I toured a bunch of houses in the neighborhood and EVERYONE has these stupid things. My new neighbor, who is incidently an architect, assured me I essentially must do something like this, in order to get resale from the house, "people here expect you to do these things and are not going to like a house without it."

I am going to be sitting there in the winter, waving up at all my heat. But it will great in the summer, where I wil pay money to push cool air from the basement to the second floor and then back to the first floor from that open area.../sarcasm off.

Thanks for the advice, all. I think I'm going to investigate the cost of lowering the ceiling to a barrel. I'm sure it'd cost more up front, but it may save money down the road -- and is still "something special" in the main room.

Bry911, I would not build a two-story room that you hate . . . just for resale. I just wouldn't do it. It's the adult equivalent of, "Oh, Mom, everyone's doing it".

Use LED bulbs and they will never need changing in your lifetime:).

Use LED bulbs in a cathedral ceiling and you will be replacing them way too often. There is not usually enough ventilation in a cathedral ceiling to keep the ceiling below the max ambient operating temperature for LEDs.

For instance, the maximum ambient operating temperature for the LP Series product is 35°C/95°F. Others may go to 55°C/131°F

That is way below what the ceiling will be mid summer.

If someone has a 95° ceiling in summer, they will have failed totally in the proper insulation department. And HVAC design as well.

The recessed housing usually goes most of the way through the insulation to just under the shingles in a cathedral ceiling. They often end up with mold damage due to the heat and humidity rising when recessed cans are installed. The insulation does NOT stop the heat abruptly at the bottom side of the roof sheathing, and when the shingles are hot enough to fry an egg on, the top of the housing that is supposed to disapate heat from the heatsink in the bulb is absolutely hotter than the bulb can handle.

Perhaps you aren't aware of the exception for less insulation in a cathedral ceiling than would otherwise be required? Or perhaps it is just your house that is that cold?

You could use SIPs for the roof, and just drop part of the ceiling if you want to add cans. Works with lots of different styles. I would guess it's cheaper than a barrel vault. If you don't have rooms or attic space above, why not take advantage of the extra height?

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love the barrel vault mrspete

As I understand it, LEDs get dimmer at higher temperatures, which causes the control circuit to force more energy through them, which shortens the life of the bulb. I would still think even with a shortened life they will far outlast any other bulb. I mean, the LEDs on my amplifiers have been going strong for ten years now and my amplifiers run a hell of lot warmer than 95. Phillips are rating their bulbs at like 45,000 hours, even getting half that you will be better than any other bulb. Especially, considering CFLs (the only thing really close in life) have a an ambient operating temperature of 77.

These are not the same LEDs that are in an amplifier. Amplifier LEDs don't require a significant heatsink. Many bulbs aren't even rated to be in a recessed can with insulation around it. I just measured the temperature of a heatsink in an open trim can at 140° and if there were nowhere for that heat to go, the bulb would fail sooner than later. You can get a blister from the heatsink. The damage only needs to happen once for the bulb to fail. Even halogen bulbs have a reduced life when installed in a recessed can in a standard cathedral ceiling.

There is a difference between suggesting someone should put LEDs in existing cans in a cathedral ceiling and suggesting that someone plan to do it in a new home. Recessed cans are generally a mold nightmare in standard cathedral ceiling anyway because of inadequate ventilation regardless of what type of bulb you put in them.

We are in the hot southeast and had them in two rooms in our previous house. These rooms were less comfortable and harder to heat and cool.

LEDs will hopefully help with the "changing light bulbs" issue.

If you plan on being in this house as you age, be sure to also consider things like ease of cleaning light fixtures and ceiling fans, adjusting smoke detectors, and re-painting ceilings in vaulted or cathedral ceiling rooms.

To a very very large extent a light emitting diode is a light emitting diode. We are really only changing the power we put through them. If you are producing white light through RBG interraction, you are essentially using 1907 technology. If you are getting white light through phospor interraction, then OK, you are on the cutting edge of 1968. I will admit that phosphor degredation is one of the problems with the heat and LED bulbs. But the main problem with phosphor degredation as well as LED's is that, over time the luminosity will degrade.

The concern with operating LEDs above their optimal temperature is usually luminosity degredation not failure. Now it is possible the circuit board in them will fail but 95 seems a bit low for a circuit board to die.

Your post was about using LEDs in a cathedral ceiling, it certainly didn't sound like you meant don't use cans in a cathedral ceiling.

All I know is I just sent back a Cree LED bulb as it blew out after less than 2 months operation. Hopefully they'll pay for it or replace it as the warranty is supposed to be for 10 years.

mrspete - What choice do you have with these things? I am already cutting out a lot of the bumpouts that are so popular and I am simplifying the roof line. I guess I could do a 10 foot coffered ceiling, but doesn't that render the space above it just as worthless (the house will have 9 foot ceiling throughout)? I have posted this picture before on another thread but again...for your viewing pleasure, my neighbors roof -

I am thumbing my nose at a lot of the things that my neighbors are doing. But I am going to be forced to do a few things I hate. Upgrading my cabinets more than I want, a few wow spaces (2 story family room), granite countertops (I HATE granite). Without these things I am afraid my house will just be significantly less impressive than people at my price point want. Although, there is something to be said for having what you want, I also reserve the right to change my mind and want a different house in a few years.

Hi, Mrspete. We have a similar sized room, about 26 x 18, with the kitchen off to the side of that. The walls are just 8 ft, but there is a cathedral ceiling that goes to 11 ft. There's no upstairs over that room, and it is built with scissor trusses (I think that's what you call them.) The cathedral ceiling doesn't go as high as the roof peak, is what I mean. There's room there for plenty of insulation. We have blown in fiberglass, then a wrap of rigid foam, a ton of caulk, and low-e windows. I don't think it will be much more to heat this house than the same house with a lower ceiling. But we have radiant floors, not forced air, so maybe that helps.

I just wanted to point out that not all "cathedral" ceilings are actually the same. There's a big difference in look, feel and energy efficiency between a peak at 11 ft and one at 20 ft or whatever the 2 story spaces work out to be. Those make me feel like I am truly in a church and should whisper...

Bry, you are totally missing where the heat comes from and how this works. It is the configuration of the diodes that causes the internal heat. An amplifier does not have that configuration problem. It is the internal heat that makes the bulb fail. The ambient outside air temperature around the bulb must be low enough to cool the heat sink, and be free moving air. 95 degrees does not make a diode fail. It makes the heat sink fail to carry off the internal heat. There has to be a great enough difference in the temperature from inside to outside to remove heat quick enough. If you hamper the air movement enough, the bulb will fail. The combination of a hot roof and poor airflow IN a true cathedral ceiling make it poor place to install recessed LEDs.

Don't miss reading the two links.

I am not sure how "Use LED bulbs IN a cathedral ceiling" could be mistaken for UNDER a cathedral ceiling.

Lori, someone already established that a cathedral ceiling is generally accepted as having an inside pitch the same as the outside. An inside pitch that is half of what the outside is, is usually called a vaulted ceiling, and erected with scissor trusses instead of using a ridge beam. A vaulted ceiling does allow more airflow in the attic, and is a less likely to be a problem with recessed LEDs in the middle area. And, scissor trusses are generally better insulated than an actual cathedral.

Again, the links you provided are talking about degredation not failure. They specifically say, "the absolute upper end of what is considered “safe” for full life expectancy," they then go on to talk about fixing it with an auto dimmer (thermistor). The problem being that consumers would rather have their room lit at a constant luminosity and have lights that fail faster. You are right amplifiers don't have the configuration problem because they are always running at 130 degrees. The bulb wouldn't fail because of the configuration causing excess heat, but they do suffer luminosity degredation as a result of the being drilled into a closed cavity surrounded by aluminum that has been 130 degrees for years.

Before we continue this complete waste, what type of bulb would you use in a cathedral ceiling?

"RTI International, in association with the LSRC, tested commercially available, mass-produced indoor luminaires
using a HALT also known as the “Hammer Test.”
15 The intent of the Hammer Test was not to develop a new
robustness test, but rather to accelerate luminaire failure to less than 1,000 hours by subjecting them to
environments outside their design range. Once failure is induced, subsequent tests will be needed to further
investigate failure modes and determine acceleration factors.

In the Hammer Test, 6" LED downlights were subjected to a series of sequential environmental stresses
including temperature cycling (-50o
C to 125o
C), wet high temperature operational life test (WHTOL) at 85o
C and
85% relative humidity (RH), and high temperature operational life test (HTOL) at 120o
C. In addition to these
multiple environmental stressors, electrical power to the luminaires was cycled on and off at one-hour intervals
to provide electrical stress as well. The study found that such SSL luminaires can exhibit exceptional durability
even under the extreme stresses of the Hammer Test. All luminaires examined in the study survived more than
100 cycles of temperature shock (-50°C to 125°C) and nearly half survived more than 300 cycles. The failures
that were observed typically occurred in the driver circuit, with board-level failures being most common. The
611 LEDs contained in these luminaires endured nearly one million hours of cumulative exposure to the
Hammer Test, and only four failures (<1%) were observed during the testing."

from http://www.nglia.org/

"electrical power to the luminaires was cycled on and off at one-hour intervals"

×

"nearly half survived more than 300 cycles."

=

More than half did not survive 300 hours, or less than 1 month @ 10 hours per day.

Failure is failure, and a condition of continually too hot is supposed to be even harder on them regardless of what kind of an exotic name they give their test.

I prefer to put no recessed IN a standard cathedral ceiling. There is too much heat loss in the winter and heat gain in the summer.

Most didn't survive a month going from -125 degrees to 300 degrees. I am going to be pissed if my lightbulb can't handle a month of 300 degree days...

"Use LED bulbs in a cathedral ceiling and you will be replacing them way too often." -

Although not specifically stated the inference there is that there is something else we should be using IN a cathedral ceiling. You didn't say anything about not installing a cathedral ceiling or not installing recessed lighting. The subject in the sentence is LED bulbs, not cathedral ceilings...

At this point, you win. I would much rather admit that we should all be using candles in certain rooms than read another thing about LED bulbs.

I hope you don't think that an exercise at extreme temperatures proving failure in a bulb in any way proves that a bulb won't fail due to considerably lower temperatures or at any less of a rate. Because that would indicate poor abductive reasoning skills.

"Once failure is induced, subsequent tests will be needed to further investigate failure modes and determine acceleration factors."

My statement was in regards to the entire conversation at that time.

"the higher end homes have 2 story, cathedral or vaulted ceilings of some sort."

"Think about maintenance and changing light bulbs especially as you get older. I see an awful lot of burnt out bulbs and cobwebs in these high ceilinged houses."

"Use LED bulbs and they will never need changing in your lifetime:)."

"Use LED bulbs in a cathedral ceiling and you will be replacing them way too often." -

And your test refers to SSL luminaire down lights. A luminaire is a complete electric light unit, not a retrofit "bulb" stuck into a recessed housing. They are testing LED systems that are specifically designed to only be used as a recessed "down light". A bulb is not a down light, you can point them any direction you want to. Downlights are usually more robust and the heat sink is bigger and designed specifically to be used in a downward direction in a ceiling, but still not necessarily for such a hot ceiling as a cathedral. In fact, they are not rated to go in an SIP or spray foam application either. Most "Bulbs" (like a BR30 flood) are more fragile, and are really only designed for track lighting, and recessed without insulation around them, even if the package doesn't mention it specifically.

"Suitable for use in operating environments between -25˚C and +45˚C (-13˚F and +113˚F).

• Lifetime may be reduced if used in air tight enclosures or in insulated ceiling air tight (ICAT) recessed downlight enclosures"

Cree

Attic temperatures

DOE REPORT

An inside pitch that is half of what the outside is, is usually called a vaulted ceiling, and erected with scissor trusses instead of using a ridge beam. A vaulted ceiling does allow more airflow in the attic, and is a less likely to be a problem with recessed LEDs in the middle area.

I am not familiar with that definition/type of vaulted ceiling. Our vaulted ceiling is lower on one side and slopes up to the higher side that has the clerestory windows. It has the same pitch as the roof, was not erected with scissor trusses and has no attic above it. As far as lighting goes, we have a monorail that is about 9 ft off the floor, so no real issue with changing light bulbs.

I realize this is silly and not even close to relevant. But...

From you... "I just measured the temperature of a heatsink in an open trim can at 140° and if there were nowhere for that heat to go, the bulb would fail sooner than later." and also from you, "Failure is failure, and a condition of continually too hot is supposed to be even harder on them regardless of what kind of an exotic name they give their test." and finally one more, "When you have 120° degree summer heat pounding down on a cathedral ceiling roof, and the heat sink is 4" underneath that with insulation on the sides, it keeps the heat from escaping the bulb and it WILL heat up to the failure point."

Now from the report that you provided, "The lamps were operated continuously at an ambient temperature of 45°C" and "While none of the LED lamps exhibited catastrophic failure—and all of the benchmarks did—the early degradation of performance is concerning."

If you examine the actual study further you find that only two of the 15 samples were below purported luminosity after the test. Remember NONE FAILED. If someone maybe said earlier in the thread, "The concern with operating LEDs above their optimal temperature is usually luminosity degredation not failure. Wait, someone said that earlier you say? Could it have been me? Surely not, because you shot back with, "Put the lamp in a ceiling-mounted fully enclosed fixture and set the timer for when failure will occur."

To put this in perspective, Assuming you operated the light for four hours per day in ambient temperatures in excess of 113 degrees, and 8 hours on the weekend at those temperatures, and the temperatures remained that high for 33% of the year, AND you chose one of the 13% of bulbs that don't last long, you will only get 9.6 years before your lights are noticeably dimmer (remember not failed, just dimmer). Of course, if you picked one of the others that were predicted to fail you can extend that another 9 years or so. While if you got lucky in your bulb selection, you are good for the long haul.

I never argued that LEDs were good, I stated that they were better than any other alternate bulb. And they are...

Now, please take your time, come up with some more evidence that completely contradicts everything in your previous points while you deftly switch your stance (since you have managed to go from led bulbs are bad because they fail, to led bulbs are bad because they degrade, to led bulbs are the best but can lights are bad in this application).

Bry, don't get confused. My original "stance" was

"Use LED bulbs in a cathedral ceiling and you will be replacing them way too often. There is not usually enough ventilation in a cathedral ceiling to keep the ceiling below the max ambient operating temperature for LEDs.

For instance, the maximum ambient operating temperature for the LP Series product is 35°C/95°F. Others may go to 55°C/131°F "

Nowhere in that statement did I say anything about complete and catastrophic failure. All the studies also define failure in more than one way. I define it as having to change a bulb for any reason. You are the one who tried to switch the definion to total annihilation when trying to prove an led would last in a higher ambient temperature than the manufacturer suggests. From the report;

"Further, operation of LED lamps in an enclosed luminaire (or other setting involving high ambient temperatures) can induce parametric failure of LEDs well before their rated lifetime; manufacturer warnings about such conditions should be followed if performance degradation is unacceptable."

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to prove by stating that not many bulbs fail at 45°C. They SHOULD NOT. They are designed to be used at that temperature. I even state "Others may go to 55°C.

This, in no way proves that they will last at the higher ambient temperature of a standard cathedral ceiling of 75°C.

We have also established that most LED luminaries will catastrophically fail rather quickly at 125°C.

This in no way proves that a bulb at any temperature less than 125°C will last any longer than the 300 hours of the test.

"Way too often" is somewhere between 300 hours and never in your lifetime.

The best option is to not put a recessed can in a standard cathedral ceiling, and use track or cable lighting instead. Then you can be reasonably sure an led bulb will last.

Dekeoboe, glad you learned something.

Vault (French voûte, from Italian volta) is an architectural term for an arched form used to provide a space with a ceiling or roof.

That was back when things were made of stone, and everything had to be arched. Now days, vault is the generic term for any type of raised CEILING. Don't get that confused with how a truss company might name their truss designs. Truss manufacturers might name an uneven, asymmetrical truss a vault because it is. But so is a cathedral, barrel, scissor, etc. The asymmetrical truss just doesn't fit into any of the subcategories, so it is simply called a vault. In the industry, we often differentiate between a cathedral vault and a scissor or other vault by referring to one on a parallel plane with the roof as "cathedral", and those that are not parallel as the generic "vault"

scissor truss vault

LOL, like we are not going to realize that you deleted the post where wanted me to "search the other 16 times they mentioned fail in the article."

A catastrophic failure means the light won't turn on, which you most certainly did say. Again I quote you, "The ambient outside air temperature around the bulb must be low enough to cool the heat sink, and be free moving air. 95 degrees does not make a diode fail. It makes the heat sink fail to carry off the internal heat. There has to be a great enough difference in the temperature from inside to outside to remove heat quick enough. If you hamper the air movement enough, the bulb will fail."

You said fail, when I tried to point back to degredation you replied with (YOUR NOW VERY DELETED POST) of "That 60 watt Wal-Mart bulb, when operating base down in open air and not even using a shade, has its internal LED case at 85°C, the absolute upper end of what is considered “safe” for full life expectancy. The same deal is true for competitive bulbs. Put a shade around it... and it’s a little warmer. Put it into any kind of base-up socket and it gets a lot hotter and all life expectancy numbers are off the table. Put it into any kind of porch or post light fixture, and it can fry, with its internal power supply components at the cliff edge of failure. Put the lamp in a ceiling-mounted fully enclosed fixture and set the timer for when failure will occur."

You went on a whole dialogue about how the bulb would fail. Seriously, if you say something that you realize later is not correct, then just say you were wrong. Don't delete posts and then try to act like you didn't say it.

I didn't delete anything. Someone else is reporting them as abusive, and is being passive aggressive by doing so. They must feel sorry for you.

It was 14 other "fail", and they also explained that failure is not strictly defined as completely not working in any way.

Fail is fail. If you have to change the bulb to get the light back that you want, then you have to change the bulb. How badly they fail doesn't matter. The fact that they DO fail completely only bolsters my argument that they will need to be changed.

We have gotten so far off the original intent of this thread, that I feel sure most of my posts to it should be removed. Sorry I love a good tangent.