Sicilian pizza in Syracuse, Italy.

Flat, single layer, wheat flour dough, baked, toppings.

Not flat = a roll

Double layer = a sandwich

Not wheat flour = a tortilla

Not baked = an open face grilled sandwich, a pancake, or a steamed or boiled Asian thingy

No toppings = toast or cracker

I'm very much enjoying the "no knead" pizza bases. I like simple pizzas - tomato sauce, mozz cheese, ham... DH likes anchovies and chorizo too..... but anything that is not traditional is not a pizza. I agree with you. But I think we're spared some of the things you wrote of here;)

I made a pizza for a friend who is allergic to tomatoes and pepper.

I used apples instead of tomatoes in a savory way. It was not bad.

dcarch

It's just one of those things that you know when you see! I'd probably agree with the definition you given in your second paragraph, but then what do we call focaccia baked with tomato slices on it? Not pizza!

I've got no issue with french bread or bagel or English muffin pizza, as long as they're named with the adjective and no one tries to pass it off as pizza. Kind of like cake. If at the end of a meal someone offers me cake and comes back with a crab cake, I'd be more than a little surprised! A "burger" is assumed to be beef unless otherwise specified, etc.

I rule out frozen as "pizza" .

A family from Italy moved into our neighbourhood when I was about 11. I became good friends with the oldest daughter "Anna". By the time Anna was in High shool, it was her responsibility , when she got home from school to get dinner started. That included starting the yeast dough for the daily bread which was what they called pizza. It was patted into a shallow pan and topped with a little tomato sauce, lots of herbs. And if there was any cheese it was just a dusting of parmesan. It is actually where I learned to make my first pizza dough.

To me pizza is all about the crust. I want a crust from dough that has been developed and given a day to two in the fridge. Rolled thin, but with a puffy, chewy rim. And for toppings I am happy with just sauce , herbs and fresh mozzarella or some traditional toppings like Italian sausage or pepperoni and mushrooms and or olives. And in a perfect world it would be baked in a wood burning oven. Unfortunately, not something I have.

Lars, I just clicked on "Say thank you" on your post because I wondered what it was and thought it would say. I'm guessing it's a local like, that sends you a message or something. If so, sorry for the intrusion. :) It's a good post, though. :) You have a good point about shape. Fawnridge's variety of Sicilian pizza pieces are obviously pizza by my definition (look at the crust), but one thing English muffins have over a slice of sourdough in being called pizza is that they're round. ;)

Re toppings, I can certainly see that you wouldn't need, or want, cheese with white sauce! Yeah, that counts with me, even though it doesn't quite fit my stereotype. :) In my own definition, I was allowing for any kind of sauce. One of my favorite pizzas is made with EVOO sprinkled with herbs for the sauce, and blobs of chevre for the cheese, with grilled vegetables in between. SO good! I've also used salsa picante for the sauce, and there's the famous CPK barbecue sauce.

I think I agree with all of Johnliu's equations, and IC has been lucky to have been spared so many of the pretenders. :) Ann's looks like a firmly iconic slice of pizza to me.

FOAS, I think you nailed it with the crabcake example! If someone invited me over for pizza, I would expect something ranging from Fawnridge's to Ann's but would be sorely disappointed by an English muffin, even if it had fancy toppings and the most delicious sauce and cheese!

Classic focaccia is with diced tomatoes, or any style tomatoes, herbs and olive oil or diced olives. Other variants are named after their toppings, though, if there's only one variety on the table, one says, "Pass the focaccia, please," not, "Please pass the caramelized onion focaccia". I don't know if there's a proper way to denote it nude, but I've seen it called "focaccia bread" in the store, presumably because this is bread you can take home to make into focaccia. I never saw focaccia without some kind of topping until about 10-15 years ago. Salt and rosemary is my favorite.

Ann, what your neighbor was making as pizza sounds more like focaccia to me. :) I've heard that there are parts of Italy where they use the word pizza for both, and maybe that pan pizza was originally what we'd recognize as focaccia. Do you think that's what it was? Or was it really pizza?

I'm not looking for the ONE definition. Words are elastic and mean what people think they mean (so long as enough people think they mean it to be communicative). I find the discussion really interesting, though, and I've learned a lot about different kinds of pizza just to here!

Not to beat a dead horse but because of family, pizza to means the "traditional Neapolitan pizza" that I grew up with. My mom's job (like Ann_T's childhood friend Anna) was to make the daily dough for pizza or bread. She would get frustrated that she couldn't play and would pound the dough. My grandmother would say "buono Nena" since that would produce better dough.

Now I'm starving for pizza and I just got finished eating dinner! HA! For me and my husband, we just love a regular style pepperoni pizza the best, usually we do add some mushrooms to it. You wouldn't catch hubby with anything "fancy" like a spinach pizza. :)

Plllog, yes I can see how it might sound like that to you, but it was Pizza as they knew it from Italy. They also made other breads including focaccia. But this was definitely pizza. I loved their home. Had all of these wonderful smells that we didn't have in our house. Garlic, and herbs and grapes fermenting for homemade wine. Good memories.

My uncle and aunt lived in Rome for about 10 years. My family visited once when my cousin was about 3. My aunt would take us to the botanical garden to play and we would get Pizza Bianca on the way home. EVOO, salt, rosemary and garlic. What I would think of as focaccia now. No tomatoes or cheese.

Agmss, that gibes with what I'd heard that pizza is used for either in some places. :) Sounds delicious, too!

Ann, thanks for the clarification.

AG, you reminded me of college. We could afford pizza from the "good" place, if we only got one, with exactly two toppings (perpetual "special"). We settled on pepperoni and mushrooms and/or onions and mushrooms. Just the basics. :)

Cathy, I get "buono" means "good". Is Nena your mom's name? Or does "buono Nena" mean something specific? Or was that your grandmother's way of getting your mom to go easy on the dough?

PLLLG, My mother's name was Antionette; they called her Nena (Knee-nay). Grandma didn't want mom to go easy on the dough.

This is so ironic: I am watching "The Mysteries of Laura"; she was investigating a suspect in a pizza shop. She chastised the owner for not making traditional pizza.

Ahhh! Got it! Thanks for the explanation. Encouraging her to get her frustrations out on the dough by putting some oomph in the kneading.

Too funny about the TV show. :)

JC

Pizza to me means a thin, tender crust, no sharp edges, not chewy, extra sauce, lotsa mozzarella, mushrooms, bell pepper, and if you drizzle some extra light olive oil over the toppings I'm fine with that !

Dinner tonight was most definitely *not* (see ASCII emphasis! We need formatting!) pizza. It was meatballs, arrabbiata sauce, herbs, hot pepper flakes, powdered romano and sliced melting cheese on whole grain bread. The toppings would have been right at home on a pizza, but it was open faced meatball sandwiches. :)

Ann T., i loved your story. And the picture makes me crave pizza right now!

Ah, Ann...I wish I could plan ahead enough to make my dough ahead (OR get DH interested in dough!).

I first learned to make pizza when we were in vegetarian mode and it has remained the favorite. Leaning towards deep dish (having spent a few years in Chicago), the sauce is tomato with lots of garlic, oregano, rosemary and some red pepper flakes and a titch of brown sugar. Vegies = onion, green pepper, mushrooms,black olives and roasted garlic.

Not that I haven't branched out. Pizza Margherita is a favorite when I have fresh garden tomatoes and basil. But the veg pizza is comfort food.

I would love to master a thin, crispy crust...just not good at it...