"Crackermoo, why wouldn't you allow a final walkthrough?"

christopherh, as someone who's bought and sold twelve homes, I've never heard of a buyer doing a walk-through on the day of closing. Not once. It's simply not done in the greater Toronto area.

So, just as so many posters here seem suspicious that the sellers may have underhanded plans, I would feel like it might be the buyer who is untrustworthy.

I'd be concerned that the buyer might be looking to be disruptive or make unreasonable demands under the threat of refusing to close.

Just my two cents.

Walk throughs are 100% common here in MN. I would never consent to a closing without one.

In two houses, we actually had to have the sellers put money in escrow until a matter could be resolved. One required a $525 A/C repair and another issue was resolved (and we released their money back to them) the same day we closed when we discovered that the hurricane shutters only needed to be oiled to enable them to be pulled shut. I was glad to have the title company holding money for these things so it didn't require me to take 'em to court!

I've owned 3 homes where we as the buyer did a walkthrough on the day of closing. When we sold the first two, the buyers did a walkthrough and there were no issues. When we sold the third house, we and the buyers developed such a rapport and friendship that when the time came for the walkthrough, we did it together.

Our last two homes were custom built, (Site built and modular) but even with those, we did a walkthrough before the final payment was released.

Escrow. It is a buyers friend.

How do you know how much to put in escrow? It is one thing if you know about an issue so you can judge how much it will fix to replace, another thing if you have no idea what the sellers might do.

My BIL bought a house and did not have a walk-through. After closing he discovered the sellers stripped it of all the historic/character items - glass doorknobs, light fixtures, cabinets, etc.

I've only bought one home, but when we went to do our "final" walkthrough, prior to signing papers (on a Friday), the people (who had already moved out) hadn't moved all their stuff out. There was a large non-op truck in the backyard, there was furniture and construction debris in the garage...I can't remember what else but the main concern was the truck in the backyard. If I remember correctly, our agent advised us to wait and not sign until the vehicle was removed.

And when things were finally all gone, we signed (the following Monday, not a long delay), but the sellers were vindictive -- they let their animals pee on the carpet, they damaged the kitchen flooring, they stuffed tampons into the sewer line to clog it up, and they threw something rotten into the garbage disposal. There may have been additional things, I do not remember now as it was 14 years ago. On top of that, they sued us in small claims for delaying the closing and costing them an extra mortgage payment (so they say, the judge ruled in our favor). All that to buy a house I don't like LOL! (It wasn't funny at the time).

"they let their animals pee on the carpet, they damaged the kitchen flooring, they stuffed tampons into the sewer line to clog it up, and they threw something rotten into the garbage disposal."

How awful. Did you countersue for the carpet cleaning, plumbing cost, etc.?

If the seller removes hardware, interior doors, light fixtures, etc, & you discover it after you've closed, that's when you call the police.

edited to add (fingers faster than brain):

& if sellers vandalize house after you've closed, that's also when you call the police.

You can turn in an insurance claim in either instance, but if sellers can be made to return or reimburse, it might be better not to make a claim on your brand-new policy.

This post was edited by sylviatexas on Thu, Jan 29, 15 at 18:36

I think in both of those scenarios, the police would say it's a civil matter.

Yikes....Who wants to make a claim on their homeowners even if there isn't a sizable deductible?

Far better to be PRO-active rather than RE-active. Sometimes, just the KNOWLEDGE that there will be a walk-thru prevents problems.

This post was edited by redcurls on Thu, Jan 29, 15 at 19:17

I've bought and sold many houses, never done a final day walk through. All these transaction are in California. I also don't recall any unpleasant surprises.
I am surprised by how many people think sellers are trying to hide defects.

I only remember one seller I didn't trust, everything turned out fine. In fact he took a big risk allowing us possession of the house months before closing. Our attorney made it clear, the risk was his not ours.

One house we bought from a recent widow, we thought she would leave stuff in yard and storage for us to remove, but we were shocked to find it all gone on possession day. In that area, it was custom to take occupancy at close of escrow plus two days.

Sure hope musicgold isn't a "hit and run". I really want to know what happens!

Another thing this is different in different area is escrow. Here in NY escrow is an account the buyer sets up for the yearly taxes to be paid out of. It has nothing to do with the seller. So escrow in other states is set up by the seller in case there is an issue and the buyer is owed money for damage?

Sounds like in California you buy a house and then let the sellers live in it for a while. While they are there you are at their mercy.

"Sounds like in California you buy a house and then let the sellers live in it for a while. While they are there you are at their mercy."

Not at all. An escrow account iis set up, usually at a title company, but the seller's agent when there is an accepted contract. The escrow agent handles the title report, the title insurance, the buyer's deposit, and then all paperwork developed thru the process winds up in the escrow agent's file. The financing, the inspections, etc. All that paperwork gets reviewed and initialed/signed by both buyer and seller. When the process is complete, and everything is signed, then the loan can be funded and then the transaction gets recorded with the county. That is the official "close".

If there are repairs, etc, the escrow agent pays those bills from the account. If there are deferred (after close) repairs, that money is held until repairs are done and contractor is paid, altho I understand that lenders are no longer allowing such hold-backs.

Sellers staying in a home they have sold is entirely an issue covered by contract regarding possession of the property. It is not common at all to have the seller stay without a contract, a rental agreement and rent.

Jewel654 -- we didn't do anything about that stuff other than confirm the sellers were @$$h4t$ ;-) At the time, I don't think we even considered trying to recoup any losses. The kitchen was already super old and falling apart, we didn't have any "before" pictures of the flooring in the the kitchen (old vinyl from the 80s). Same with the animal urine and sewer.

At the time, we felt lucky that anyone would sell us a house because we'd made 4 or 5 good offers that had been rejected (I think people were skeptical of our financing, it was through a program called "NACA"), So...when we offered on this house I half-figured it would be rejected too! Figures that the house I didn't like so much, with @$$h4t sellers, would accept.

Here we are, 14 years later...having remodeled/updated most everything. Next on the list is to finally take out the flooring in the main areas/bedroooms, we've already replaced kitchen/dining and baths. Whoever buys our house will be getting a much better deal than we got (if/when we can ever upgrade).

OP -- where did you go? Please provide some closure on the closing walk-through!

Crackermoo

Just because you never heard of it, doesn't mean it does never happen. It is up to whatever is negotiated - I am sure you know that many buyers ask for at least one if not two visits before the closing date (on top of inspection for mortgage and/or by home inspector), with appropriate notice to the seller. Buyer could specify that one visit will be on day of closing - sure, it may be very inconvenient for the seller who is packing/moving out that day, but that would be negotiated up front. I would do it (as buyer) if I had some 'funny' feelings about sellers. If I saw anything in question, my solicitor would get call immediately, with instructions not to close unless problem solved.
I would try to negotiate it to earlier date (as seller) since there will be too much going on that day.
But if the seller absolutely refuses to late/day of closing visit, that would be little alarming.
These are visits (referred to as 'final walk-thru'), not inspections. Inspection sometimes 'scares' sellers - but why unless there is something to hide?

Clause saying that the house (and garage...) is to be left free and clear of any garbage/refuse, and swept (something like that) is quite usual.

Anything that should stay in house should be in writing.
Anything of value - even if attached (hardware, trim, buil-ins and similar) and automatically should stay unless specified "to be removed" - I would write in the Agreement of purchase and sale. That way one has a document in writing it was agreed to, in case they do otherwise.

Rina

removed dp
Rina

This post was edited by rina_ on Mon, Feb 2, 15 at 12:22

"Another thing this is different in different area is escrow. Here in NY escrow is an account the buyer sets up for the yearly taxes to be paid out of. It has nothing to do with the seller. So escrow in other states is set up by the seller in case there is an issue and the buyer is owed money for damage? "

The term "escrow" just means money is held by a third-party on behalf of other people involved in a financial transaction.
It can be set up for any number of reasons.

They already tried to take something in the yard and you had to have them bolt it back through your lawyer.
Take this opportunity to get out of the contract.
Call your lawyer, or realtor and tell them the deal is off.
Don't buy something that you can't see, that doesn't make any sense.
Trust your gut on this one, you know what to do,
Always go with your gut, your better off.

Butterfly4u -- unless there is a contingency in the contract the buyer can use, she doesn't have the right to walk away.

Buyer says contract gives them 2 walk-throughs or re-visits.

Buyer says seller refused to allow them a final walk-through, claiming that the inspection, which is a separate matter, "counts" as one of the visits.

Although I am not an attorney & nothing I say is to be construed as legal advice, it sounds like seller may be in default.

in which case buyer does have some options.

The contract doesn't say that the 2nd visit has to be after the seller moves out, so the seller's offer of 2 days before closing would satisfy the contract.
They rescinded that after the buyer pushed back and at that point they said "no more visits". If they stick to that, then I imagine the contract would allow them to walk. But I'm sure they get a chance to allow a visit (at a convenient time for the seller) before you can void the contract and get your deposit back.

They may be shady ... but they made also just want to avoid the stress of a walk through on a day that is already really busy and stressful.

If the buyer wanted a walk through on the final day, they should have specified that in the contract.

Unless buyer or seller stipulated that the second visit had to be within a certain time, buyer likely has the right to schedule the walk-through right before closing.

speaking as a Realtor, not as a practitioner of law.

which reminds me, OP has already had to engage the services of a practitioner of law to keep seller from hauling off part of the real property.

If I were buyer, I'd opt out, & if buyer were my client & wanted to opt out, we'd find another house.

Posted by Jewel654on Thu, Jan 29, said - "Sure hope musicgold isn't a "hit and run". I really want to know what happens!"

I think this is the case and mg is mia. When ottawavalleygardener posted a link to the same inquiry on another forum I saw the last reply there was "My lawyer now tells me that the seller can continue to block us until closing. The seller's lawyer is saying we already have had 2 visits to the house (including 1 inspection visit before we..."

So it looks like asked and answered - albeit elsewhere.

It amazes me that it is customary to not do a final walk through the day before or the day of closing! How would the buyer confirm agreed upon repairs being finished, or to see if nothing has been damaged due to the seller's move - out?
My new car arrives on Monday from the factory. Should I just tell the salesman to deposit my check and then deliver the car to me the next day? Heck no! So why would anyone do that with a home purchase?

We had difficulty doing a final walk thru day of closing. We did ours right before heading to settlement. The house was not cleaned out of the debris as per our contract and a big pet peeve of DH. Although mentioned to our agent, he just shrugged his shoulders and said to mention to sellers agent (no buyer rep back then). All the usual culprits at the closing table with no mention of our concerns. The first sheet of paper for signature was placed in front of DH and with pen in hand, he brought up the house not being cleaned out...again. They tried to brush him off; he just put the pen down and pushed his chair away from closing table and just stated, I already have a house so I don't need to settle. The entire room went silent. Needless to say, everyone was much more open to taking care of every single request we made. Sellers had to leave money in escrow until things were completed and as a buyer, I required that we sign off in writing saying we were satisfied before seller escrow monies could be released back to them. Sometimes sellers and even agents 'think' they are 'always in charge'; they are not. When I eventually got my license, I used my own settlement as how not to do a transaction. good luck to the OP.

Sylvia, if I were the buyer or buyer's atty, I would be arguing that the contract specifically called for an inspection by a property inspector -- not necessarily including the buyer and possibly more than one (pest, S&M, HAVC, etc) and because that is specifically called for in another provision of the contract it is not to be included as one of the buyer's visits. Contracts are to be read and construed as a whole and so that all the terms make sense. I'd have no problem holding the seller's feet to the flame -- but I do wonder what happened here, and I would not go forward as a buyer without that vacant walk through. No way.

NC--I believe (and I've never sold here, only bought, and it was over 10 yrs ago) that the way it works is escrow holds the funds for about a week. So, any issues that are found get "reported" and also worked out within that week, or funds aren't released to the seller (at least, not all of them).

I believe (I'm not a RE professional). And, that is why there is an escrow company entwined in all our dealings in Washington state.

I live in CA, an escrow state, frequently escrow closes before the seller moves out, therefore there can be no inspection after move out, but before closing.
Another difference, we have no final meeting for signatures, we usually never see the seller. When selling, the escrow officer will call to say the sale recorded, then money is wired to requested account. Buyer picks up keys from agent, end of story. I find buyers and sellers more fair and honest than many here have experienced.

If a contract has a term that hasn't been met, an escrow agent shouldn't close.

I didn't get a walk through - they called and said they didn't get the cleaning done but would give me $100 to hire someone. hahHAHA - like that was enough to do much of anything. Both my agent and the sellers wanted the deal to go through so I was encouraged to accept it.

It was awful. We hauled out over 40 garbage bags full of trash... I mean really disgusting trash, not ordinary trash... plus 22 empty booze bottles. Yeah, it looked bad when I saw it and made the offer but the deal was it would be clean and habitable. Well, I was a newbie then. Sure wouldn't accept it now.

" The first sheet of paper for signature was placed in front of DH and with pen in hand, he brought up the house not being cleaned out...again. They tried to brush him off; he just put the pen down and pushed his chair away from closing table and just stated, I already have a house so I don't need to settle. The entire room went silent. Needless to say, everyone was much more open to taking care of every single request we made."

Good for him.
Folks need to learn how to stand up for their rights in a non-confrontational, calm manner and this is a great lesson on how to do it. Give that man a kiss!

Hi All,

Sorry about the late reply. I got busy with the house. Here is how it unfolded at the end.

My lawyer couldn't do jack sh*t!

1. Final Walk-through- My lawyer couldn't get me the final walk-through. The seller's lawyer continued to argue until the end that we have already used 2 re-visits (1 inspection + 1 visit). After closing, we realized that the seller took the mirror in a washroom and left a cracked mirror in the hall to hide the damage from ripping off the TV stand.
   
2. Gazebo - All the lawyer could get me is $350 for the Gazebo. It is going to cost me $770 to get the same gazebo (purchase price + installation cost + taxes). When my lawyer first told me about the $350 offer by the seller (before closing), I didn't agree to it and told her that I was going to sue the seller to get the entire cost. Just two hours before the closing, she sent another email trying to convince me why I should take the $350 offer with some bullsh*t reasoning. I had to cave-in as both my wife and real estate agents were not keen on taking the seller to the court.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Thanks for your update! It's always great with the OP comes back with the "rest of the story". The situation certainly could have been worse (missing appliances, for example).

A late arrival to a sticky question. In Maine there does not seem to be a restriction on walk-through. I bought a house in the family asked could they sleep the final night in the house they would be gone by closing in the later morning. I said fine I did the walk-through with my agent the day before the closing. They still had a few things mattresses things like that in the house. After the closing when the house was empty, I came back to discover rotted base flooring under the kitchen sink, gouge in the sheet rock, holes in the screen. I was not happy. I had the seller fix the screen door, but I ended up paying a carpenter to repair the rotten floor. I filled in the sheet rock and btw the house was very dirty. Checking with my agent he said my contract said broom swept. I will never close on a house again without same day walk-through

Bentap, better than a walk-thru would have been an inspection way earlier in the process, with the whole contract contingent on it. Those things would have shown up and would have been part of negotiating with the sellers for the repairs. A final walk-thru is best for catching major missing things that the sellers might have removed, like gazebos and appliances, etc.

If I were to do this over again, I would do the following: 1) name every major fixture in the house in the purchase agreeement 2) hire a lawyer with a solid reputation.

You should have gotten the walk-through in my opinion and I think contract law would back you up on that, but either way, if the parties don't agree -- and the seller isn't going to agree to anything if they know they left things that are going to cost them money, the solution is to go to court. As things go, it could be a lot worse, and your time is probably better spent getting moved in and settled. Sorry your seller was a stinker, but glad it wasn't worse. There are horror stories out there.

It is a reminder to be specific about things that matter in your contract, even things you might take as customary. The courts are filled with disputes over what contracts drafted by experienced and highly paid lawyers over many hours, weeks or even months -- and they still don't agree on what the terms mean.

When we purchased our first home, it was clean. My Mom was the first to arrive on moving day and found the seventy-something seller scrubbing the oven. My [salt of the Earth] Mom told her to stop, as it wouldn't kill her daughter to clean an oven. The house was tidy, though.

Two year later the neighbor sold her house and had the advantage of snow. The buyers were kind but inexperienced. When the buyers moved in after the snow melted, the house had many square yards of junk in the yard; broken furniture, broken toys, damaged sheet rock. It took them many trips to the transfer station to clean out the house and yard.

When my dad moved from his house to a senior apartment, I was under orders to clean the house (not hard -- the house was kept clean), remove all hooks and hangers, fill the nail holes, touch up the paint, clean the carpets, and clean and sweep out the garage. It was as close to a new house as you could get. I wish I had bought a house from my dad.

It's all about self worth and pride and respect. People like this have neither.

Oldgeezernmaine, you are bringing me back flashbacks from my home. The sellers hadn't done a THING in three months between selling and closing, house was filthy, grass waist high in the yard, and that oven!!! Looked like they cooked a pig and a lasagna in it every day!!!

Long grass wouldn't worry me, nor a bit of a mess I suppose, but what I can't understand is when what I would consider a part of the sale is taken away.

The gazebo for instance, or shrubs. I would feel that what I had seen, was what I was buying, unless the sellers asked me would I mind if they took this prized rose that reminded them of their old dead Aunt Mary. Or, could we take some of the daffodils, would that be all right?

And yes, of course it would be.

Yet, with some people, it is considered normal to rip out shrubs and young trees to take to their new place, after the sale. So strange.

Anyhow, I am glad that you've 'moved on', musicgold, as it's NOT worth the angst to pursue this sort of thing. But please, next time, refuse to settle unless and until they put back what they take.

robo(z6a) that is a piece I didn't mention in my original comment……I was being nice because their house construction was problematic…they kept asking for more time…it was 6 mos. before I finally said ..that's it…and like you..I don't think they worried and probably recognized they could take advantage. Last time I do that…it's a life lesson I had to learn….

I would certainly be wary if they don't want you to walk through after they vacate it, A friend of mine bought a house from a man who was originally from Germany, where they take EVERYTHING not nailed down when they leave. Including the rods in the closets, the shelves in the stove, etc. This could be a similar case of sellers taking stuff with them that should have been left in the house.

In our area it isn't common to have a 'walk through' before close. It isn't in our contract either. So, when my seller refused, it was only because she's in the process of moving (has 30 days occupancy) and the house isn't spotless. She was like that for all showings too. I'm going to see if she'll let, at least. the buyer's agent through. She is following the contract. What difference is the buyer sees it now or 30 days from now when they get occupancy?

The difference seeing the property BEFORE the sale has closed as opposed to AFTER is that if there has been damage or property has been removed that was to be included, the buyer still has recourse. Once the monies have changed hands and the sale has closed, any recourse is a lot more difficult.

Agreed, but with 30 day occupancy anything could happen. Even if it's not the sellers fault. ie. furnace stops working. Not sure why the majority of comments are with lack of trust of the seller. How about the buyer just deciding they changed their mind after a walk through. I think it's the responsibility of all parties to honor the contract and work together for a win win. Which most of the time happens.

The above comment is naïve. Sellers and buyers dishonor parts of contracts all the time. A walk through on the day of closing is just plain smart.

Did you happen to take pictures of appliances, light fixtures/ceiling fans, shelving bolted in place in the house or garage, etc? It's quite possible the sellers are hoping you've forgotten various items they want to remove and replace. What I don't see is an honest seller, but I do see red flags all over this situation. You may lose earnest money, but if you don't back out, you may lose more. Your real estate agent is really the person who should be following thru on this.

PattyCakes, I do take pictures of items when the home is large and/or the home has a lot going on.