Plumbing Work = Two Less Ficus Trees + Space for a Rambler?

9 years ago

My parents were having some plumbing work done this weekend when it was discovered that the roots of two Ficus trees are beginning to penetrate a portion of their pipes in the backyard. This will lead to the removal of the trees and a new, large open spot against a building with good morning sun, but some afternoon dappled-shade.

The spot is a good 20' wide or so and the building goes up 10' with no wires or trees above. This seems like a really great opportunity to try a rambler or some large once-bloomer. The closest plant that won't be taken out is a double, white Brugmansia that would be in the general scene of the rambler as well.

What ramblers or large climbers-besides Banskias and Cecile Brunner- would do well here in Zone 10 that you can recommend that would go well with the white Brugmansia? I've been looking at the Barbier ramblers, but I have no clue if they do well without some chill. She very much likes the thought of Paul's Himalayan Musk or something like Francois Juranville/Albertine/et cet. I have absolutely no experience with ramblers other than Lady Banks, so I'm all ears! Thanks everyone!

Jay

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Comments (17)

roseseek
9 years ago
Why not plant something healthy, fragrant and repeat flowering? Lamarque could be spectacular there and should flower virtually twelve months of the year. Plus, it smells heavenly. If you are really set on a once flowering type, consider Silver Moon. The buttery yellow buds open to large, semi double, white flowers, with glossy foliage. In Newhall, 91321, once it was established, it provided repeat for quite a few years. Great rose! Kim
Glenburn
9 years ago
Jay, Kim has put forward a fantastic rose in 'Lamarque'. Could I ask what color scheme might your parents want or in your eyes what might you want. Your Zone 10 has lots of possibles, if it is in close proximity of the house or entertaining area, fragrance comes to mind.
Regards David.
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Another: I don't want to leave anyone with the idea they could or should cut off 90% of a plant's roots w/o consequence. I've been working on roots for years, and have repotted many thousands of plants. I know the plants and I know the ropes. I also know how to mitigate or prevent entirely unwanted reactions to severe root work. Most of you should concentrate on removing 1/3-1/2 of the roots of a healthy plant during your first effort. I often suggest you cut off the bottom 1/3 of the roots before you start the rest of the pruning, then remove up to 1/2 of the remaining root mass, concentrating on the problem roots and the largest secondary roots, which would actually be a 2/3 reduction and maybe a little too aggressive for your first time. It's not too aggressive because the plant won't easily tolerate the removal of that much root mas; rather, it's more about how many additional roots might be damaged by desiccation during and after the process. I usually work with a constant high pressure spray of water and a root pick, or a tub of water and a root pic; and I can finish the repot quickly into dry soil and then water almost immediately. I also water (the gritty mix) daily after repotting to ensure the newly forming roots are always moist. I can't remember the last plant I lost as a result of a repotting, and whatever it was, it was most likely a conifer - and not a tropical or temperate deciduous tree - they're the easiest. You can cut back temperate deciduous trees (like maples & hornbeams & stuff) because you do it while they are still quiescent (after dormancy but before spring growth has started), and they will only activate the volume of buds the root system is able to support - sort of a built-in check/balance system. The roots of tropical trees can only be cut back severely if you also prune the top in conjunction with the hard pruning. One way or another, the tree will do its best to reasonably balance the volume of roots to shoots. Cut off a lot of foliage - the plant will shed about that fraction of root mass. Cut back roots too severely - some of the leaves and branches will be seemingly indiscriminately shed, so if you root-prune really hard, it's better if YOU decide which branches should be pruned, instead of the tree making that decision based on what its chemical messengers tell it. In the end, there is very little (almost no) chance a tree will succumb as a result of root-pruning and repotting if it's done correctly. The key is getting your hands into the root mass and learning what it feels like to work there. Once you see how you can keep your tree in a rejuvenated state indefinitely, you'll be a root-pruning convert. Root pruning and repotting (as opposed to potting up) are the reason old bonsai trees can be happy/healthy living in tiny pots for hundreds of years, while most of us have trouble keeping our houseplants in good health for even a 5 year duration. Al
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Simply saying it's not essential is misleading. It doesn't matter whether or not a tree is grown in a nursery can or in an ornate container on a deck, when roots are congested, growth and vitality ARE affected. There is no getting around that fact. How significantly you wish the effects of the tight roots to bring down your tree before you act or relegate the tree to the compost heap is up to you. Many of us have an attachment to our plants such that it pains us to have to discard them because they're in decline, so we WANT to give them the best care possible. The pages of this forum are filled with posts by people whose trees were turned around because severe root congestion was causing decline. Fertilizing a containerized plant isn't essential either, but you can bet that if you don't fertilize, the plant will suffer for the inaction - repotting is the same. You may be happy with the limiting effects of tight roots and loss of potential, but not everyone else is. In many cases root congestion is so severe that potting up offers only a slight improvement as the tree struggles to grow a little closer to its potential. I have closely observed the effects of root pruning and repotting on my own trees for more than 20 years, and I can say without question that root pruning is essential if you wish to maximize growth/vitality/attractiveness of the tree. I'm also a trained bonsai judge, which means that foremost, I'm able to judge the health of a plant critically. Plants with tight roots, in need of repotting, are always apparent because they suffer and it shows in many ways. In many cases, the simple fact that a tree was left to languish w/o proper attention to root work, is what cost the owner a ribbon. No, we're not all out to win a ribbon, just have fun and enjoy, but part of the enjoyment for sum is seeing how well we can grow a plant, not how much effort we can avoid. The reason bonsai trees often remain perfectly healthy for generation after generation is due to root work. Root work has a rejuvenating effect on plants because you cut roots back to ontogenetically younger tissue and it relieves the stress of root congestion. From another of my posts: "I have spent literally thousands of hours digging around in root-balls of trees (let's allow that trees means any woody plant material with tree-like roots) - tropical/subtropical trees, temperate trees collected from the wild and temperate nursery stock. The wild collected trees are a challenge, usually for their lack of roots close to the trunk, and have stories of their own. The nursery stock is probably the closest examples to what most of your trees are like below the soil line, so I'll offer my thoughts for you to consider or discard as you find fitting. I've purchased many trees from nurseries that have been containerized for long periods. Our bonsai club, just this summer, invited a visiting artist to conduct a workshop on mugo pines. The nursery (a huge operation) where we have our meetings happened to have purchased several thousand of the mugos somewhere around 10 - 12 years ago and they had been potted-up into continually larger containers ever since. Why relate these uninteresting snippets? In the cases of material that has been progressively potted-up only, large perennial roots occupied nearly the entire volume of the container, plant vitality was in severe decline, and soil in the original root-ball had become so hard that in some cases a chisel was required to remove it. In plants that are potted-up, rootage becomes entangled. As root diameters increase, portions of roots constrict flow of water and nutrients through other roots, much the same as in the case of girdling or encircling roots on trees grown in-ground. The ratio of fine, feeder roots to more lignified and perennial roots becomes skewed to favor the larger, and practically speaking, useless roots. Initial symptoms of poor root conditions are progressive diminishing of branch extension and reduced vitality. As rootage becomes continually compressed and restricted, branch extension stops and individual branches might die as water/nutrient translocation is further compromised. Foliage quality may not (important to understand) indicate the tree is struggling until the condition is severe, but if you observe your trees carefully, you will find them increasingly unable to cope with stressful conditions - too much/little water, heat, sun, etc. Trees that are operating under conditions of stress that has progressed to strain, will usually be diagnosed in the end as suffering from attack by insects or other bio-agents while the underlying cause goes unnoticed. I want to mention that I draw distinct delineation between simply potting up and repotting. Potting up temporarily offers room for fine rootage to grow and do the necessary work of water/nutrient uptake, but these new roots soon lignify, while rootage in the old root mass continues to grow and become increasingly restrictive. The larger and larger containers required for potting-up & the difficulty in handling them also makes us increasingly reluctant to undertake even potting-up, let alone undertake the task of repotting/root-pruning which grows increasingly difficult with each up-potting. So we are clear on terminology, potting up simply involves moving the plant with its root mass and soil intact, or nearly so, to a larger container and filling in around the root/soil mass with additional soil. Repotting, on the other hand, includes the removal of all or part of the soil and the pruning of roots, with an eye to removing the largest roots, as well as those that would be considered defective. Examples are roots that are dead, those growing back toward the center of the root mass, encircling, girdling or j-hooked roots, and otherwise damaged roots. I often explain the effects of repotting vs potting up like this: Let's rate growth/vitality potential on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best. We're going to say that trees in containers can only achieve a growth/vitality rating of 9, due to the somewhat limiting effects of container culture. Lets also imagine that for every year a tree goes w/o repotting or potting up, its measure of growth/vitality slips by 1 number, That is to say you pot a tree and the first year it grows at a level of 9, the next year, an 8, the next year a 7. Lets also imagine we're going to go 3 years between repotting or potting up. Here's what happens to the tree you repot/root prune: year 1: 9 year 2: 8 year 3: 7 repot year 1: 9 year 2: 8 year 3: 7 repot year 1: 9 year 2: 8 year 3: 7 You can see that a full repotting and root pruning returns the plant to its full potential within the limits of other cultural influences for as long as you care to repot/root prune. Looking now at how woody plants respond to only potting up: year 1: 9 year 2: 8 year 3: 7 pot up year 1: 8 year 2: 7 year 3: 6 pot up year 1: 7 year 2: 6 year 3: 5 pot up year 1: 6 year 2: 5 year 3: 4 pot up year 1: 5 year 2: 4 year 3: 3 pot up year 1: 4 year 2: 3 year 3: 2 pot up year 1: 3 year 2: 2 year 3: 1 This is a fairly accurate illustration of the influence tight roots have on a woody plant's growth/vitality. You might think of it for a moment in the context of the longevity of bonsai trees vs the life expectancy of most trees grown as houseplants, the difference between 4 years and 400 years, lying primarily in how the roots are treated." "There is nothing wrong with repotting or root pruning when done properly" is quite the understatement. And that ".... few people know how do do it properly ...." is nothing more than good incentive to learn, which is why I'm here trying to help people improve their skills by being proactive rather than passive. If you admit that root congestion progressively reduces growth and limits vitality, then you must admit that repotting/root-pruning is a good thing and essential to optimizing growth/vitality. If you deny that tight roots has this effect, I'd ask you to support your contention with something other than anecdote. Al
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I have two growing into trees right now, with two more planned. Paul's Himalayan Musk Rambler is planted at the base of a mulberry tree, and he's having trouble staying in the tree. His canes are lax and thorny, and they tend to go up the tree then hang down as soon as they have the opportunity. I don't think I would try this again with this rose. My other tree climbing rose is American Pillar, which is happily scaling a Virginia Cedar tree. As of now, in its fourth year, it is at least 25' into the tree and continuing to climb. The hot pink flowers spill from the tree's canopy in May and it is certainly a sight to see! My next tree climbers will be Veilchenblau and Tausendschoen, together, to climb a ratty wild cherry tree in my front mixed rose border. I've never seen Tausendschoen in a tree, but Robert grows his Veilchenblau into a holly tree (along with Fortuniana) and the effect is stunning! My best advice on how to get started is to plant the rose on the upwind side of the tree if you can. My American Pillar had to be planted on the south side of its cedar tree, and sometimes the canes that are just beginning to climb get blown out of the canopy. Most of the Wichuranas that I can think of are happier crawling along the ground instead of climbing trees. I'll bet Albertine is stiff enough to be a good tree climber. Connie
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mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
9 years ago
What color is the background or the color of the house where it will be planted. Not sure why you wanted a once bloomer, but if pink or pink blends will do, Renea will work very well, grows quickly and is thornless along with being a repeater. Shadow Dancer (red/pink blend) will also grow well and is a repeat bloomer. Same with Flamingo Dancer but is a pink blend. Annie Laurie McDowell (not sure I am spelling that right) is also a repeat pink bloomer but is slow to grow.

An Austin that should work well (if you want a white) would be Snow Goose and a yellow would be Malvern Hills. Both are repeaters.
jerijen
9 years ago
I'm 100% with Kim, on Lamarque. It should do everything you want, with fragrance and good health.

Silver Moon, though ... I don't know.

I've seen massive old plants up the coast at Moss Landing, where they were breathtaking. But HERE . . . not so much.

I have one that is now 2/3 of the way up a massive old seedling avocado tree, here, and it is never an asset. It not only does not repeat for me, it really doesn't bloom much at all. And the foliage never looks good. The only thing saving its life at this point is contemplation of what it would take, to get rid of the thing.

Anyhow, here's Lamarque.

Jeri
ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
Original Author
9 years ago
Hey everyone!

The thinking behind a once bloomer here is that this spot isn't the most central to the yard, there are some unbelievably beautiful once-bloomers, neither my mom nor I grow one besides Lady Banks, and it's fun to try different things. The building itself is white -it's not the house itself- and my mom would like something with at least some pink or apricot. While they're my favorite, white roses might be my mom's least favorite. She personally doesn't really find Lamarque, Snowbird, Mme. Jules Bouche, and many other classic white roses all that appealing with a few exceptions.

I would grow Lamarque if I had the space, but she's just not a fan. Silver Moon would likely also be just ok to her whereas I quite like it. One repeater she's been trying to find space for is Mel's Heritage and it has come up as a possibility for this spot.

Elie Beauvillain is another that came up besides the Hybrid Wichuraianas. I don't think many people are growing it down south, but a few posters up north have had success with it in California. The plant at the SJHRG sure looks unbelievable.

Given how wonderful the spring flush can be for once-bloomers, I don't think that the lack of repeat is enough to discount them even in a climate where blooms can come the whole year. It hasn't stopped Lady Banks from finding a way into many frostless gardens. Treasure Trove, for instance, surely provides more flowers in its one flush than many shrub roses do over several years.

Oh yes, any experiences with Souvenir de Madame Leonie Viennot or Belle Portugaise? My mom really fell for the former at the Huntington last spring, but no location seemed appropriate till now.

Thanks, as always!

Jay

This post was edited by ArbutusOmnedo on Tue, Jan 20, 15 at 15:08
roseseek
9 years ago
If you want to try something really neat, Jay, consider Veilchenblau. Violet is difficult to beat. For more continual flowering, there is Purple Skyliner which isn't all that difficult to find. I'm in Encino. My plant is own root and is about to be dug out if you would like to bring your shovel and take it home, or just cuttings. I'm moving things and reducing the irrigated areas to concentrate water where I want it. If you're interested, please let me know. One way or another, I won't maintain it. I am focusing on things I wish to use for breeding and multiflora simply doesn't figure in to my plans. The other three climbers along thay section of fence are Ralph Moore's "Muriel", his 0-47-19 and Clair Matin. They are all own root and up for grabs.... Kim
jacqueline9CA
9 years ago
Belle Portugaise is one of my very favorite roses. Mine was an own root small cutting, and took 4 Springs to get big enough to start blooming. However, once it did it was amazing, and has been amazing ever since. I think you would have to tie it horizontally somehow, but you certainly have enough space. Its blooms are the most elegant of any rose I have ever seen. Mine booms for at least 2 months, and usually more. It starts blooming very early - about the same time the banksias do.

Here is a pic of mine. My neighbors come over to stare at it when it is blooming.

Jackie
ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
9 years ago
Another thought would be Reve d'Or, which would look beautiful against a white wall and may not be as massive as Lamarque or the Barbier ramblers. It's not terribly thorny and should be easy to maintain at the size you want it. The blooms are a lovely apricot/pink color and it blooms a lot.

Ingrid
ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
Original Author
9 years ago
Not that either of us are opposed to multiples of the same rose, but a small Reve d'Or is planted in one of the most prominent spots in the garden already, Ingrid. It really is a beauty and one to consider for sure.

Lovely photo, Jackie! I would come over all the time to see that. Does Belle Portugaise have much of a fragrance?

Another idea -which would also be a multiple- is to let a Mutabilis take over that area. There's one along a fence not far from this spot up the wall of a building and the repetition could be quite pleasant. Mutabilis seems very happy here and I've seen one treated essentially as a rambler going above 12' in height and at least that much in breadth. I'm sure I could root one from the plant already in her yard. Cost effective plans are never bad, but there are so many beautiful large roses that won't have a spot here otherwise. It will be a tough, but fun decision for my mom.

Jay
ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
Original Author
9 years ago
And thank you for the offer, Kim! I'll keep that in mind if any spots free up in my garden or my parents'. Purple Skyliner and Clair Matin are intriguing. You also offered cuttings/buds of your namesake rose in another thread and I never thanked you for that offer. I need to make it out your way some day like Kippy and get some insights into budding and roses on the whole.

Jay
roseseek
9 years ago
You're welcome, Jay. Unfortunately there is an "expiration date" to the offer. If all goes according to plan, a significantly reduced collection of roses and I will be moving north in about six weeks. Yes, it is a desired, planned move! Kim
alameda/zone 8/East Texas
9 years ago
Jay, Clair Matin is a wonderful rose, I have two. My favorite which is noisette, but would work in your area is Crepuscule - peach ice cream color and blooms all the time. I had one that arched and draped itself over a fence and it was fabulous - unfortunately, painters bent it over to paint the fence, broke it off......but I plan to plant another. This rose is really fabulous! Color would look good against the white building.

I am tempted to try the new David Austin recurrent blooming Albrighton Rambler. Might be fun to see how this one does. I have Mel's Heritage and like it a lot - blooms aren't huge for me though. Kim is right about Vielchenblau - absolutely breathtaking when it is big and in full bloom - unfortunately, only a once bloomer. Also - what about Alchemist? This is a gorgeous peach color and one I intend to try. I saw a Mutablis made into a climber and it was just beautiful - intend to try this one day. You have lots of choices!
Judith
ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
9 years ago
Cl. Lady Hilllingdon is another lovely choice (unless of course you already have it) but it is slower to develop than some of the others. On the other hand I felt she was worth the wait. I've noticed that it's not offered very often now, not quite sure why.

Ingrid
ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
Original Author
9 years ago
Oh wow, Kim! I hope everything works out for your move! To what part of California or the Pacific Northwest are you heading?

It is unfortunate that Climbing Lady Hillingdon is quite hard to come by. I have the shrub form and it is one of my absolute favorite roses. Here is a bloom from a few days ago:

Jay
roseseek
9 years ago
Thank you, Jay. So far, all systems are go. The California Central Coast is the anticipated landing spot. I have to check on its progress, but Cl. Lady Hillingdon MAY already be propagated. Cuttings and some buds were started a while back but the propagator and I haven't been in touch for a few weeks. Kim
ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
Original Author
9 years ago
I should also add that I texted the idea of Mutabilis to my mom and she was very receptive. She loves Mutabilis and has a 'Marmalade Bush', Streptosolen jamesonii, in need of planting that I think would look very good near that rose. It's not a done deal by any means, but Mutabilis is probably now the front runner.

I also have a small Streptosolen and it is a very neat plant for those who are into orange and yellow flowers.

Jay
ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
Original Author
9 years ago
Just wanted to follow up and mention that a 5 gallon Mutabilis -found for $10 on sale!- is now in the ground. I think it should really be a great choice. Finding one that was decently sized for a pretty good price was enough to put Mutabilis ahead of the pack.

I also replanted a different area that recently featured a termite ridden Birch with a lovely Magnolia 'Leonard Messel.' The new Magnolia is also within view of a moderately sized Saucer Magnolia. If she could plant traditional Dogwoods she would, but my mom has to settle for Coral Trees and Magnolias for her Flowering Deciduous Tree fix. The new changes have really redefined those parts of the yard for the long term. It'll be fun to see it all mature.

Jay

Plumbing Work = Two Less Ficus Trees + Space for a Rambler?

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