Wow Seil, what a beautiful picture and rose. Thank you for sharing your feedback on GT with me.

That is impressive how quickly it grew back to it's original size. Do you have him growing on an arbor? Looks like their might be an arbor in your photo. Do you winter protect him at all?

Michaela

GT gets huge in warm climates, like one of the tall hybrid perpetuals. I have no experience with it in colder climates. It has complicated ancestry with varied cold hardiness - gallica, hybrid tea, pernetiana, hybrid wichurana and more, so no good clues there.

Thanks rosefolly. I actually ended up ordering Molineux, when I saw dublinbay (kate)'s photos of it after digging further on gardenweb for talk of them.

I may end up getting GT as well... would like some more verification it can survive zone 5 winters first. I don't even mind if it dies back to the ground, as long as it comes back & blooms.

They are all so pretty, I just want them all.

Michaela

Hi Michaela,

I have tried to grow Graham Thomas and Molineux both here in Eastern Ontario. Both are now gone because it is just a bit too cold here for them to thrive. GT gets a good + rating for cold hardiness on HMF Roses with 11 raters. I found one remark that said it dies to the ground in Eastern Washington, which is a solid zone 5a.

Having said that, Graham Thomas in particular is a wonderful rose if you can grow it. There is still a gorgeous specimen in my Mother In Laws Garden in Southwestern British Columbia that I planted almost 20 years ago. It thrives and only gets pruned or weeded when my wife and I go to visit. My MIL loves it..

As I recall, you are near Des Moines and get fairly severe winter temperatures there. I will not tell you not to try these two varieties, but I will say that if you want to try them, plant them deep in a very protected location, preferably on a South wall and understand that you will have to wrap and winter protect them extremely well in a climate as cold as yours. They both also like a lot of fertilizer and water. Mulch heavily with compost or aged poultry manure in spring.

Good luck,

Rick

Hi Rick,

Thank you for your thoughts and insight. I am in Des Moines, impressive memory!

Last year we had a really bad winter, like many. This year it hasn't been too bad, so far the lowest it's gotten is -8. Granted we still have a few more months of winter, January seems to be the coldest for us here.

How far down would you recommend planting them? I can easily dig a deep hole. Would something like this work for protection or are you thinking more in depth? Right now I haven't been winter protecting, this is what I was planning on doing next fall. If this works, do you wait until roses are dormant to wrap them? My roses didn't lose their leaves until about November this year because we had some warm weather.

Thanks Rick!

Hi Michaela

Good choice on Molineux - you'll be very happy with this rose. In my zone 5 a few hours down I-80 from you this rose has been easily hardy in a relatively unprotected spot in my yard for around 7 years. It even was one of the few roses that had surviving cane from last winter out of 750+ roses in my yard. Graham Thomas lived several years then died from gardener error one spring. In my zone it never got as big or floriforous as Molineux, so my endorsement is not as strong as represented in Sharon's gorgeous picture above. My GT was among the less hardy among my 30 or so Austins, tending to be root hardy but not necessarily cane hardy. Since you say you're OK with that, I've found that the Austins tend to bounce back pretty quickly in spring - ONCE well established.

As for protection, the first rule is not to do any significant protection until the ground is frozen, not just the leaves fallen off the roses. I usually watch for when temperatures are in the 20's routinely as highs - a few temperatures lower than that aren't enough, and in fact are what help the rose get into a sufficiently dormant state. In my yard, that's usually around Christmas, although this past fall we had that in November and I went ahead and did a little protecting early even though things warmed back up and the soil thawed. The risk of protecting too early is twofold at least - critters getting into the protection and gnawing away at the canes, and moisture getting trapped against the canes and setting up canker and other fungal diseases. Both are more likely to be devastating to roses than cold per se, and I've dropped back my winter protection considerably over the years for any established roses. Your Shropshire Lad roses from Heirloom may appreciate some protection their first year, but I don't think Austins in ARE gallons planted in spring will need particular protection in our area by the fall. Rick has a somewhat different situation being yet another notch colder than we are, and his experience of Austins being iffy without protection is different from mine, with the caveat that Graham Thomas is more likely to be root hardy than cane hardy. Molineux should have little trouble in my experience.

The point of winter protection isn't so much to keep them warm, but keep them cold - to moderate the up and down temperatures like we're facing this weekend (40's and 50's thaw before the teens hit again). The protection can also buffer the wind, but I find I can do that just as effectively with barriers at the edge of the bed rather than individual packing of each rose, except of course for my zone-pushing teas.

As long as you hold off until it's truly cold for the protection you diagram above, and the straw doesn't stay wet over the winter, this should be fine if you choose to use it. Just be sure to pull it off as soon as temperatures start to consistently stay above a high of 20's in the day (usually beginning of March in my yard). It's OK if temperatures drop after you pull off the covering - they'll stay dormant till they decide to grow, and no amount of protection will stop them if they're growing.

Another company that sells very reasonably priced gallons of Austins is Chamblees - NOT to enable you or anything, heaven forbid!

Cynthia

Cynthia - Thank you so much, you always have so much advice & are so helpful! I really appreciate you taking the time to write all that out for me.

I am so excited to hear that about Molineux. It's such a beautiful rose.. I feel like I'm getting ahead of myself ordering all of these DAs when I've never grown them before so I'm so glad to hear that you've had success with them around here. I'm just sitting here on my laptop swooning over all these beautiful roses and I can't stop myself! I'm at least planning ahead this year and am getting all of my roses delivered in May so they have the whole summer to get established. Last year I was still planting roses in September... so far they still have green canes but I don't want to do that again. Too risky for me!

I think I will hold off on ordering GT then, at least for this summer since I've got Molineux ordered. I am also ordering Heritage & probably a few others so that one can move down on my list a little bit..

Thank you for all the amazing advice on winter protection. That is extremely helpful. I will definitely plan on protecting my bands then for sure, and getting everything ready so in Nov/Dec when the temperatures drop I can get them wrapped up.

You are saying that the two gallon AREs wouldn't necessarily need winter protection but the bands would be a good idea, yes? Just want to make sure I'm fully understanding all of your wonderful advice!

Do you grow Heritage, Abe Darby, or A Shropshire Lad? Oh.... looking at Chamblees now. OH NO. They have Jude the Obscure, Glamis Castle, and Carding Mill. There goes all my money!!!!

Michaela

Cynthia, what's the shipping usually run for you from Chamblees? I'd think they'd be similar for me in IA. Looks like you don't get your shipping until after you check out.

What Cynthia said and since she is quite close to you, better advice than I can give you. I agree with Cynthia that Graham Thomas is one of the most cold tender English Roses.

The one caveat I have is that since Graham Thomas is likely not cane hardy where you live. I would cut the plant back to 18 to 20 inches before putting on the protection and then wrap the canes to the top. In warmer areas, pruning in fall is a no-no, in climates where roses need winter protection it is pretty much necessary.

Exposed canes of tender varieties will freeze back well below the snow line, or mulch level, once temperatures drop below what they can tolerate. For Graham Thomas, I'm guessing that is likely somewhere between -22 and -24 C, or -8 and -11 F. The more live cane you can get through the winter, the better your rose will perform come first flush. More cane equals more vigour and more blooms.

I use straw for winter protection because it doesn't absorb water as easily as most other types of protective material and again, as Cynthia said the aim is to keep the canes at a constant cold temperature. The other aims are to keep them as dry as possible and to protect from wind desiccation. I agree 100% with the advice about waiting until the ground is hard frozen and taking the protection off before the temperatures come consistently above freezing. Here in Eastern Ontario, that means putting on the protection in the last week of November or early December and taking it off in mid March to early April depending on snow cover and melt. You want to get it off before the straw has a chance to get wet.

As for depth of planting hole, it depends on whether the roses you are planting are grafted or own root. For grafted plants, the bud union should be at least 4 inches below the soil level. Own root roses depending on size, I plant about an inch deeper than the level of the soil in the container they come in. Another interesting thing to know is that many grafted English roses will begin to grow roots from the stems above the root graft, go own root, once they have been growing for 4 or 5 years. That is if they are happy.

I'm now quite jealous since Cynthia says most Austins survive without winter protection in your area. That will save you a lot of work. It has been a slightly milder winter than normal here as well, but still we've had a few nights of -14 to -16 F. But my roses are all wrapped and cozy under straw topped with plastic bags and now a decent snow cover. I am very confident that there will be another glorious rose garden in my yard come June.

I hope you have one as well.

Cheers, Rick

Here is a link that might be useful: Planting Grafted Roses In Cold Climates

Glad to hear straw works for you, that is what I'm going to plan on using next winter! It sounds easy enough. Timeline was the part I was most hesitant about and you guys have helped me with that. The nursery just down the street from me carries straw in the fall, so it'll be easy for me to get my hands on.

All of my roses are own root, so that's perfect. I would say I usually plant my roses about an inch deeper... I usually end up digging my holes too deep, I get a little shovel happy I guess.

Thanks Rick! I am glad your roses are all tucked in for winter. So looking forward to spring!

Michaela

Seil,

That is a gorgeous image of Graham Thomas. I used to love that rose when I could grow it. Gorgeous blooms, gorgeous fragrance and nice habit, though large.

Cheers, Rick

He is on a trellis, Michaela. He gets so tall and his canes are very stiff so I tie him to the trellis for support so the canes don't snap in the wind. He gets minimal winter protection...whatever leaves blow in during the fall. Because of last year's nasty winter I did save a couple of bags of leaves and spread them around the bases of the roses in that bed but there wasn't any thing to hold them in so a lot of them ended up blowing off anyway. We'll see how he does this winter but I'm not worried about him.

That's great Seil. It's a beautiful rose. I am keeping GT on my wishlist for future years but have decided to go with Molineux for this year. :o)

Michaela

I can't speak to Molineux, but I can say a little about Graham Thomas. It does have pretty flowers, but it didn't repeat well for me. Mine was an own-root plant. It did not survive the late, hard freeze and snowstorm we had last May. Usually most of my Austins don't have a really hard time with late freezes, but this one did.

Would Golden Celebration be cold hardy enough for your area? It's my favorite Austin yellow. Diane

Hi MIchaela

Glad we can help with this process! Nothing like GW friends to enable us, eh? Nanadoll has a great picture of Golden Celebration, and that one has been reliably hardy for me as well. It wants to climb for me, but has been more mannerly about it than Teasing Georgia (which I love), that wants to be mostly a huge sprawling bush - albeit with great rebloom of fluffy light yellow flowers. You have no end of choices with Austins, and with a few exceptions can't go wrong.

You asked about Chamblee's shipping - I don't think it's an exact per rose cost since they send a certain number of boxes that have a given cost regardless of the number of roses in them, but I checked two years of orders (one with an order of 11, one with 24 - see you don't need to feel bad about reordering), and their shipping was always below $3/rose at that volume. As I recall they can fit 6 roses in a box, so it's clearly incentive to order at least 6 right?

I have Carding Mill and Abe Darby and they're both terrific and cane hardy even in my zone 4 pocket. I love the color of both, but note that my Abe Darby has been nothing like as big as expected if on own roots. Heritage has been mostly cane hardy in a part shade location and blooms reasonably often. Jude the Obscure has come back nicely for 2 years near Molineux and I don't have Glamis Castle. As I recall that latter one has gotten some reviews that it's one of the better Austin white roses, though the new Tranquillity sounds better. I planted A Shropshire Lad years ago in my zone 4 pocket and it died overwinter there, so I'll presume it's not as resolutely hardy as some Austins, but as Rick attests there can be a big difference in those few extra degrees for winter survival. Brrr, Rick sympathies on those temps of -14-18 - that might just kill off this gardener too. We haven't gotten below the single digit negatives yet. I'm replacing A Shropshire Lad this year and I expect it'll do fine. Some of the nice winter survival we get from Austins might have to do with our relatively dry weather too - Ontario and most of the Northeast has much more wet weather than we do, and that can wreak havoc with winter survival too.

To respond to your question about winter protection, basically you're welcome to protect whatever you're iffy about come fall. Anything that's knee-high or lower by fall has a lower survival chance than something waist high and well branched, all other things being equal. The amount of cane above ground doesn't exactly equal the amount of root below ground, since we hope the roses will put down lots of roots before sprouting much cane, but if a rose has an elaborate cane system above ground odds are it has a good root system as well and is more likely to survive the winter. That is, if some critter like the gophers Californians have to deal with haven't eaten away the roots. Being well hydrated going into winter is always good for winter survival too. The gist of that is that a band plant is more likely to be shorter than a gallon plant, but if that band is waist height it's probably as hardy as the gallon would be (unless it's a waist-high "one cane wonder"). That's why I suggested the bands might want protection in their first winter, but even they might not need it for Austins in our area.

FWIW, I usually have most of my roses shipped toward the last week or two in April so that I can plant them as May begins - except bareroot roses that I have shipped and planted in early April. You want your pots to acclimate for at least several days when they arrive, particularly if shipped from much warmer places, and the end of April rarely has a frost any more here (and it's easy to cover them in pots on the patio anyway if needed). Shipping in May is also fine, but I figure I want as much growing time as possible in a season - and I can't wait to dig in the dirt anyway.

Have fun, and we want to see pictures!

Cynthia

bustopher, thank you for your feedback about Graham Thomas! That is helpful information to have! I think I am putting GT on hold but just for now!

-----

Diane, what a gorgeous rose. I wasn't even thinking of Golden Celebration since ARE doesn't have it. Now that I know about Chamblees, that could change things! I've already ordered Molineux because I'm so impulsive/was worried they'd sell out. But that doesn't mean I can't get GC too! :o) Right now I only have one yellow rose, High Voltage.... so I can justify that EASY!

When we first bought our house I thought I'd have SO much room for gardening and I already feel like I'm running out of room! Is it bad I sort of have my fingers crossed that some shrubs in our yard die so I have more space for roses? I guess I'll just have to be more creative over the years on where to fit roses!

----

Cynthia, if it wasn't for all of you I'd just be running around in the garden like a chicken without my head! I have learned so much from you. You also make me feel less crazy when I hear that many of you also have lengthy spreadsheets filled with garden data, are constantly looking at photos online and drooling over roses (I call this "florn"), and lay in bed at night dreaming up gardens. I am not alone!

That's great news about GC and Teasing Georgia. That is a beautiful rose as well and one I'd been eyeing. I am worried I'm going to start digging up my other plants and giving them away just to make room for DAs.

Thank you for the info on shipping from Chamblees. Oh I would LOVE to order 6. I think I'd still have a hard time narrowing it down at this point... can I just have one of each?

That's a helpful guide for winter protection and makes a lot of sense. I'll be happy to protect my roses this winter now that I have a better understanding of what to do. It seems less overwhelming than before, so thank you.

Oh good to know! I reached out to Heirloom to move my order, hopefully that will be no issue. When I call to add to my ARE order I'll see if they can move my whole order up as well. The more time they have in the ground, the better!

I am with you.... I am so anxious for spring. Only 87 days now that I've updated my countdown on my little phone app with the new arrival date of my roses. But who is counting?

Thanks again, Cynthia.

Michaela

So lets just pretend for a minute... that when I get paid on Friday, that I WAS going to order 6 roses from Chamblees... and those roses were:

Heritage
Jude the Obscure
Abraham Darby
Golden Celebration
Evelyn

I would need one more and I'm having a hard time finding one I'd want? I've already ordered Molineux from ARE and A Shropshire Lad from Heirloom. And I'm not 100% sold on GT.

Thinking about: The Alnwick Rose, Glamis Castle (seems to have some negative reviews?) Charles Darwin, Carding Mill?

This thread should just be called "give me tons of advice on all the david austin roses please and thank you"

I'm leaning towards Glamis Castle. If it's truly can take some shade I have the perfect spot for it.

This post was edited by thegardenat902 on Thu, Jan 15, 15 at 21:30

I suppose Chamblees doesn't have Princess Alexandra of Kent? That's a darn good rose. It takes off fast and blooms continuously. I don't think it would get very big in your zone. Diane

Can you get The Pilgrim in Des Moines? I grew it in England Zone 8.
HMF lists it as 5b to 10b.
It was one of my favourite Austins. I would have again like a shot, if I had any room left.
Very fragrant.
Daisy

Diane, that is a beautiful rose & one I have on my wishlist but Chamblees doesn't have it. Heirloom does, and I think I'll end up getting it because it's supposed to be hardy to zone 2 and it's beautiful!

Daisy, The Pilgrim is gorgeous! I can see why it's one of your favorites. I can get a band from Heirloom, but it's not available at Chamblees. But I am adding it to my evergrowing wishlist!! Why don't you have it anymore? Did you move?

Michaela

Hi Michaela

I'm glad this info has been helpful - just passing along what I've heard from all my wonderful friends here at GW. I'm just one voice in the "let's fill Michaela's yard with roses" campaign, but among the roses you listed I'd go with Carding Mill. It's tall and narrow, an intriguing apricot color, a good rebloomer and tough as nails hardy. I also like The Alnwick Rose, but it doesn't rebloom as well for me, and you already have other pinks listed. I can't speak for Glamis Castle and you're right that it adds some variety to your palette that's enough reason for trying it. I probably wouldn't do Charles Darwin, as in my yard it's another marginally hardy rose like Graham Thomas. I agree that The Pilgrim sounds like a keeper and both that and PAK are on order for me this spring.

Take lots of pictures and you can't go wrong. And just to further the crime, I can't say exactly whether the Chamblee's boxes hold 6 or 8 roses. You might need to order 8 just to be sure (chortle).

Cynthia

Cynthia, thank you for your feedback! I am adding Carding Mill to my WL for next year. I decided to do the risky thing and order Glamis Castle. It's a really beautiful rose from the photos on HMF and I'm excited to add another white rose to my garden.

Oh my, it's a good thing I didn't see this until after I ordered. I would have ended up getting 2 heritage and 2 judes if I'd known! Ha! I can't believe how cheap their shipping was.... with shipping the 6 roses ended up being $18 a piece. You can't beat those prices anywhere around here. Especially own-root one gallon roses.

I am so anxious for them to arrive........ Just a few months to wait...

Thank you again, everyone for your advice! You guys are the best.

Michaela

Hi Cynthia, not sure if you'll see this but thought I'd give it a shot. Not really important enough of a question to make a whole new post!

Do you grow Carding Mill as a climber then? When you say tall and narrow, that makes me think of a rose that would do well on an obelisk? I have two old hostas that are taking up prime real estate under my bay window that I'm thinking of putting roses on obelisks on either side of a hydrangea (assuming the hydrangea survives winter... it's one I've heard mixed reviews about for zone 5)

Would you recommend Carding Mill or do you have a favorite DA you grow as a climber you'd suggest? I've never grown fragrant roses before but I do like the idea of something fragrant since they'd be by windows I open frequently.

Here is a photo of the spot I'm thinking about. The little guy in the center is an Endless Summer Hydrangea I just planted last spring.

{{gwi:2120160}}

If anyone else has any suggestions please also feel free to chime in! I just keep bugging Cynthia since she is so close to me!

Thank you :)
Michaela

Michaela, I just wanted to give you my input on Glamis Castle. I've actively disliked very few roses but GC is a prime candidate. It's viciously thorny, has a fragrance someone characterized as "smelling like a diaper pail" and mine did not have a pleasing shape. The flowers were okay but not good enough to offset its negatives. Most roses have thorns but this one had big, vicious thorns on a small bush which made it easy to hate. I'm not sure there is a really outstanding white Austin rose, although I personally haven't grown too many Austins. I can only say that I was a much happier person after Glamis Castle left my garden.

Even after you've ordered you can always cancel or substitute a rose, and most of us have done that at some time or another. Your order is not cast in stone until the company is actually ready to ship it.

Carding Mill is a wonderful rose, but I'm not at all sure that it's one that wants to climb. Nevertheless, I think it would look lovely against your house and for many it's an almost constant bloomer. Fragrance in my opinion was not terribly noticeable, but I'm in a very different climate and it may be stronger in a cooler and moister area.

Ingrid

Hi Ingrid! Thanks for your feedback on Glamis. Sad to hear it smells like diapers!

I will see if I can find a recommendation for something that work for these obelisks that Chamblees carries & then I may substitute it.

Thanks for the heads up.

Michaela

The roses Chamblees has labeled as climbers are:

Abraham Darby
Eglantyne
Benjamin Britten - not thrilled with this color though
Gertrude Jekyll

This post was edited by thegardenat902 on Tue, Jan 20, 15 at 21:44

Hi Michaela

I agree with Ingrid's assessment of Carding Mill as a climber, since it doesn't remotely seem to want to climb for me. By tall, I mean between 5-6' and about 2' wide, rather like Queen of Sweden. It would lean against an obelisk, but wouldn't really climb up it, and it has been pretty self-sufficient standing on its own. You could put a Carding Mill on one side of those windows and a Queen of Sweden on the other side and they'd have the effect of a pillar without really needing the support.

Among the things Chamblees lists for climbing, none of them remotely climb for me. Benjamin Britten and Eglantyne barely clear 3' for me in a good year, and Abraham Darby isn't much taller. Gertrude Jekyll might condescend to reach out a little over time, but so far she hasn't. The closest Austins I've seen for "climbing" are Teasing Georgia and maybe Tradescant. Frankly, though, TG sprawls rather than climbs, and Tradescant weaves around other plants at maybe 3' high and 5' wide in a good year.

Oh, I just thought - the one Austin that does climb and in fact needs a support is Crown Princess Margaretha. It has very loose floppy canes that beg for winding around a short pedestal, which is where I have them. It's a creamy white that wouldn't be ideal in the spot you mention, though. In general, for that spot I'd look beyond Austins for a climber - twin trellises of something suited for our zones like Quadra or Illusion would make much more of an impact.

That means you can spend your extra Chamblees credit on something else you've been drooling over.

Cynthia

Hi Cynthia, thank you so much for your reply.

I am sad to hear that DAs won't work for me as climbers like I was imagining, but I will love them as shrubs just the same. I am anxious to see Carding Mill, and think I might just plant it there, without a support. That just means I can save the money I was going to use for an obelisk trellis for another rose! The trellises are 50-60$ so that's great for my bank account anyway! Queen of Sweden is lovely. Thank you for that suggestion as well.

Since Eglantyne isn't much of a climber, I am ordering Alchymist from ARE to put on the arbor in my garden, and will plant Eglantyne as a shrub. I decided to still order Eglantyne, Carding Mill, and Abraham Darby and just grow them on shrubs.

Thank you again for all your advice, you've helped me plan for this summer well & hopefully it will be a success with more knowledge!

Michaela

Sounds like a plan, Michaela. Here's a bush shot of Carding Mill to give you an idea of their growth pattern for me, so you can picture it where you want it. The fence is just under 6' tall, and by the end of the season Carding Mill will gently creep a few fingers over the edge. Looking at the stiff canes, you can see why it doesn't climb much, though you do get some very mild fountaining at the top. Queen of Sweden grows in a similar pattern, but it's a classic medium carnation pink.

Cynthia

Cynthia, thank you for sharing that photo with me. It's a beautiful rose, and think it will do well in that spot.

I would have to measure but I think it might even peek up into the bottom of the window if it gets 6 feet tall.

Now just have to decide if I'm going to order a Queen of Sweden or a second Carding Mill.
Michaela