Cece,

Yes - I like Graves' other novels as well and several would qualify for this genre: KING JESUS, for instance, and WIFE TO MR MILTON. I haven't seen any of them around for years now but would like to re-read them.

Another fan of Mary Renault's work here. Every few years I re-read "The King Must Die." I also liked "The Persian Boy." Another historical fiction set in Greece and very well-written is Ellen Gilchrist's "Anabasis."

As for King Arthur, I liked T.H. White's "Once and Future King." Vee, some time ago here, when "Barbara"/"Kate" was at RP, we had quite a lengthy discussion on King Arthur legends, who the actual leader may have been, where the actual "Camelot" might have been situated, etc. I will always be fascinated by this topic....

And as for the Robin Hood legends, I don't know of any Historical Fiction worth the time, but I think some of us are fascinated with the underdog getting the upper hand, those who were forbidden to poach deer to feed their families getting their revenge on the rich lords, the "evil" sheriff and King John, and the link to King Richard the Lionhearted, etc.

I am just finishing The Other Boleyn Girl by Philippa Gregory. It could be a bit shorter, I think, but I find that I'm enjoying it, bodice buster or not!

Lacey, try again by typing in the codes, but don't space between them and the material you are attempting to set off. Sorry, I'm pretty technically challenged myself.

Those of you fascinated by Eleanor of Aquitaine (notice that though she was married to two kings and was mother of two more, she is still known by the name of the province where she was born): have you read Amy Kelly's magnificent biography of her, "Eleanor of Aquitaine and the Four Kings"? It's over 50 years old now, and is still the best. The one by M. Meade (I think I have the name right) doesn't hold a candle to Kelly's.

woodnymph, thanks for Gilchrist' book. I didn't know she wrote that kind of fiction. She's a fine writer.

As for the HF set in the Americas, you probably know the ones I know because they're pretty well-known. Just in case, Conrad Richter's wonderful trilogy "The Trees," "The Fields," and "The Town" is one of my favorites. Also, if you like novels about Native Americans, Mari Sandoz's "Crazy Horse" is one of the best, as is "Laughing Boy"--I can't remember the author's name. I also loved as an adolescent, Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings "The Sojourner", but then I'm a sucker for novels about American farm life. In a fairly recent rereading, it seemed somewhat overly sentimental, but it's still good.

Another HF I forgot to include on my first list is "The Stargazer" by Zsolt de Harsanyi, about Galileo. I haven't read it in many, many years, so I'm not sure how it holds up, but I still have my copy, so that must count for something.

phyllis, that is the one Gregory that I have been able to stomach. With the exception of her take on Anne (she was not a witch, any more than she was a victim, sorry), I found it a very interesting story about a little known part of history. Her others tho - dear lord what dreck! Tho my sis loves her, so I say that with affection :)

frieda, the thing I liked the most about the Tarr book was her look at Byzantium. We learn so much about Rome till it falls, but very little about the eastern half which continues for centuries afterwards. Plus her woman characters are right there along with Eleanor in strength and purpose. I am trying to think if there is any 'fantasy' aspect in the book, but I can't think of one.

I'm also a big Eleanor fan (btw, I know there have been tons of movies about Eliz I. Was Lion in Winter the only one about Eleanor? I find her a much more interesting, fascinating woman) Have you read Amy Kelly's non fiction "Eleanor of Aquitane and the Four Kings"? You'll find just where Penman , Tarr and others got their info. Very well researched and very readable.

Oh, Robin Hood, tho one with the wonderful Howard Pyle illustrations, was passed on to me from my brother, and it is still a treasure. I read that book over and over as a kid, and am still amazed at how the illustrations carry the story along so beautifully. And woodnymph, Once and Future King is another fav. I read it as a kid, not getting much except from the Sword and Stone section. But each time I read it I got more from it.

I realy like Thomas B Costain's novels. Reading them gave me a stronger interest in the time frames in which they were set. I found history as a subject to be dull, novels like these brought it to life for me.

Another author not listed above (and not to be confused with the bodice rippers category) is Georgette Heyer. She meticulously researched her time periods so that everything from fashion to transportation modes to vocabulary was correct for the time in which each novel was set. Her novel, An Infamous Army, (about the battle of Waterloo) was so well researched that it is supposed to be required reading for some history classes (at least that's what I have read about it).

Elswyth Thane was mentioned in an earlier post. The first two novels in her Williamsburg series, Dawn's Early Light (about the American Revolutionary War) and Yankee Stranger (about the American Civil War) are also well researched. Although I like the other books in this series, these remain my favorites. THey really bring those eras to life for me.

Stop! Stop! I just ordered the M. Irwin Elizabeth I books from the lib and now you come up with an Eleanor book!
(seriously-my Lib list, my Christmas list and my PBS wishlist grow apace! yummy!)

Cindy - The Poldark books are extremely well done (especially those first 3) - they are the type of books that you melt into, if you know what I mean. I actually think that is part of the draw that historical fiction has for me - if it is a really good book, I feel like a visiting time traveller. And one of the best things is that I don't have to endure the conditions of the time I am "visiting."

Mary, I think as far as Robin Hood and King Arthur go, they are mostly 'fiction' with very little 'history', although, as you say, everyone enjoys a tale of the underdog/goodie outwitting the Evil-Powers-That-Be.
Cindy I've been somewhat confused by what you consider historical fiction but as you ask for recommendations for books set in the time of Eleanor of A here are a couple you might enjoy Fitzempress' Law and King of the Last Days by Diana Norman. She is a first class historical novelist who doesn't get the attention she deserves. An earlier book The Morning Gift set during the wars between Stephen and Mathilda is equally good.
These books were written during the '80's and are not easy to get these days . . . but are so worth the effort.
Her latest 'series' is set in the England (and America) of the early 1700's onwards and The Sparks Fly Upwards (which takes in the French Revolution) has just come out.
I think it would be safe to say that as her female characters are feisty no bodices were ripped during the writing of these books.

I finally have gotten around to doing this. The following excerpt, from the Preface to "Eagle in the Snow," by Steven Pressfield, sums up for me what good HF must be. (The preface is by S. Pressfield, not the novel!)

"Before [the author] even sits down to think, he has to master the historical material...Beyond that, he must reconstitute the world for the reader with such vivid authenticity as to transport him to another time and place and make him believe it....

Next, he must craft credible, multidimensional characters and bring them to life in a story that's compellling, involving and true to its era (in other words, to do the same thing a contemporary novelist does, only, like Gigner Rogers dancing with Fred Astair, in high heels and backwards.)...

Beyond that, comes the next plateau: to found the story upon a genuine moral, ethical or spiritual theme, to make it truly 'about' something--something that is not only true to the historical epoch in which the work is set, but something relevant and vital to our contemporary era. That's the Holy Grail of historical fiction."

>Cindy I've been somewhat confused by what you consider historical fiction

Hee, so am I. Basically HF for me needs to be more than just a book written in a certain time period. It has to be a story that wouldn't fit in another time, a story that is pertinent and relevant to that time period. Just setting a book in the 1300s isn't enough for me if there isn't a feel for the time, people and events that take place.

As far as Robin Hood and Arthur - yeah, it probably does go to far to include those as historic fiction (ditto with Once and Future King). But - often an author will put the legends in a time period that does feel like HF. Cornwell is a perfect example. His rendering of post Roman, pre Saxon England is wonderful, and according to my military history fan husband, quite on target with current research. So maybe it depends on how good the writer is?

Thanks for those recs, btw, just what I am looking for. I am also interested in movies about Eleanor, aside from the wonderful Lion in Winter. Know of any?

lacey, I must say that is quite good - esp the last part - the story needs to be vital to our own era. (Which is why works of Shakespeare - not HF- ring so true 500 years later) That definition certainly describes my favorite HF books and authors.

Mary Renault and Thomas Costain were my introductions to historical fiction. I still have great memories of them and re-reads haven't disappointed, which happens far too often.

Another writer of historical fiction, but with a twist, that I love is Guy Garvial Kay. Any novel that sends me eagerly to my history books to look up more about a time and place makes me happy. Kay's does that, in spite of the fact that they are fantasies. His The Lions of Al-Rasson, although it takes place on a planet with two suns, is about Spain at the time of El Cid. The Sarantium Mosaic duo, starting with Sailing to Sarantium is about the reign of Justinian, when Rome has become a backwater and all progress is out of Byzantium. I'm thinking now that it has little of fantasy about it, except for maybe the influence of the old religions, which actually rings true and straight out of Fraizer.

And I have very much enjoyed Colleen McCullough's series on Rome and Ceasar and his relations. Who knew I could hate Cicero so much?

And then there is Irving Stone's historical novelized biographies, and ....

Lacey, don't worry so much about the html. You make the titles clear. That's what matters.

I have to second Guy Gavriel Kay's books. They go on my "Reread Often" book shelf. Chris, I wish we could get together in real life and spend a couple of hours discussing those books. Don't forget A Song for Arbonne. Did you know he has a new book coming out in February called Ysabel? I'm not sure if I'll like it, because it sounds a bit YA, but I've placed a hold on it at the library.

Oh, and ditto also Colleen McCullough's Rome series. Another group of books that you can "melt" into.

If you are into the time frame of WW II, I thought "Charlotte Gray" by Sebastian Faulks was excellent.

Vee, re King Arthur, have the Geoffrey Ashe books been totally discounted in the UK?

Have any of you read Antonia Fraser's "Marie Antoinette: The Journey"? If so, what did you think? (I have just seen the film about that Queen which was derived from her novel).

It's been a while since I read it, but I really enjoyed Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth. The book tracks the building of a cathedral in the middle ages.

Michael Shaara's The Killer Angels about the battle at Gettysburg is very good.

I've heard good things about Kenneth Robert's books (Northwest Passage, Arundel, and Rabble in Arms), but have never read any. Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about these?

Janalyn, a face to face talk about Kay would be fun. He is a writer of great charm, which is how Dirda, of the Washington Post phrased it once. That so intrigued me, I immediately found one of his novels at the library and was hooked. YA is fine with me. I love HP after all.

How could I have forgotten Neal Stephenson's The Baroque Cycle - grand adventure revolving around Isaac Newton, Leibnitz, Louis XIV....

elliottb, my 10th grade American History teacher required us to read at least one of those three, and over the years I eventually read them all and one or two others by Roberts less known.
Roberts really does give you a feel for the time and place, but his characters seem a little too "pat" for me. But anybody interested in the period would enjoy his books. They're easy reads.

I'm a strong believer in the truth of fiction. A really well written historical novel can give a person a feel for that very foreign place and time that straight historical presentation of the facts just can't provide, and if I ever were to teach a history course, I would urge students to read some (very carefully selected) fiction.

When I have the opportunity to teach history, I use stories. We read the basic text, but then I either tell stories that I know from my reading, or I will have made a trip to the lib so I can read a story. (Extra bonus-subliminal encouragement to READ!)
When I was in high school back in the day, we read letters and journals written by American soldiers in WW II. The teacher had ordered them roughly chronologically and grouped them by battles and fronts, and as we read we mapped and discussed what else was happening at the same time. Now that I teach, I realize what a huge undertaking it was for him to put this all together-but it was a wonderful way to understnad what really happened without having to memorize battles. Teachers now use the great movies Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers but I still think the reading was better!
So many students are driven stark raving by requirements such as "memorize all the Secretaries of State" (no lie, the OTHER history teacher required this when DD and DS were in middle school-thank goodness they both got the storyteller.) Well-written historic fiction is such a boon to teachers-I have handed The Witch of Blackbird Pond to so many 6th grade girls looking for a good book!

>but I really enjoyed Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth. The book tracks the building of a cathedral in the middle ages.

Oh, I loved that book. I think that was one of the best medieval life HF fiction books I'd read. Unfortunately I have not been able to get through another of his.

>A really well written historical novel can give a person a feel for that very foreign place and time that straight historical presentation of the facts just can't provide, and if I ever were to teach a history course, I would urge students to read some (very carefully selected) fiction.

I so agree with you. I can see teaching a class about the civil war and require Gone With the Wind, Uncle Tom, and The March (Doctorow) as reading.

ccr, I have loved history since I first discovered it in 6th grade (had a gifted teacher who suddenly opened my eyes). Ever since I have been very fortunate to have teachers who understood that history is not just facts; you can't separate history from our lives. It has to be made relevant, there has to be connections to what was and what is, so we can see (or avoid) what we might be.

I also think history should not be isolated from geography and cultural anthropology, and know some teachers in some charter schools who teach this way. Unfortunately, with standards and basic testing being the end to all means, classes like history and geography are either becoming just memorization (name the capitols of all fifty states, name all the presidents), or are being left out all together.

As near as I can tell, schools don't seem to teach history at all. Try asking the next five teenagers you meet when Columbus discovered America. (I've gotten answers as late as 1800--and that from an adult veteran of the US army, not a teenager at all!) Or when the Civil War was. Forget medieval or ancient times. Geography is just as bad. Well, for that matter, so his the teaching of writing, which is my subject.

But that's all a different topic entirely, and really OT.:)

Has anyone taken a look at the Jonathan Nield Guide to Historical Fiction? The list was compiled in the early 1900s, so it does not include most of the historicals written in the 20th century. I glanced at it one day and realized I had read very little on the list. I guess because it is older fiction, most of the books would be out of print or hard to find these days and I wouldn't know how many of them were written for entertainment vs historical accuracy. It is nicely organized by century, though.

I think my intro to historical fiction was all those novels by Jean Plaidy (aka, Victoria Holt). I read several of them as a teenager, so I don't remember whether they were very accurate representations, but I remember she wrote a lot of them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jonathan Nield Guide to Historical Fiction and Tales

lacey, don't ever apologies for going OT (well, as far as I'm concerned). I feel it is great when a thread that starts out as a list of books can open out into a discussion. ;-)
I liked your idea of 'the truth of fiction' in historical reading, especially when an author has the ability to get into the 'feel' of a particular period, without resorting to '"Fie, fair maid" quothe the young varlet' mode.
I would also agree that some films can illustrate/bring to life events from long-ago.
Did any of you see Charlton Heston's War Lord? I remember UK children being taken to it as it brought out the conflict between the Norman age and the remnants of the old Celtic beliefs . . . I think the parts about le droit du seigneur went over their heads.
cece isn't Saving Private Ryan the film in which only the US and the Germans play any part in WWII. :-)

From the late '60's to the early '90's history and geography teaching almost went out of the window in the UK. They became known as 'Social Studies'. I remember my daughter in secondary school(aged about 11) 'choosing' to do Costume and drawing lots of pictures of people 'from many lands' and 'different centuries' . . . and learning nothing. Heaven knows what the boys did.

At least by learning a list of say, US Presidents or UK Kings and Queens kids could be taught some 'facts' to hang around them. Over here it became non-PC to teach about figures from history, so many kids have never heard of Nelson, Drake, Cromwell and even Churchill is thought to be the name of a bull-dog character from a TV insurance ad.
Even though history seems to be back on the timetable it will be the Ancient Egyptians, for a few weeks, followed by the Dinosaurs, then leap forward several million years to the Victorians and then on to Hitler . . . who says my DD who took modern history at University . . . was really not such a bad guy. Groan... is there no hope?

veer, Private Ryan was specifically about an incident concerning an American squardron (sp). I am not sure the fact that you only saw them fight Germans and no one else doesn't make much difference to the story (and btw, once you fast forward the first 30 minutes - very realistic war battle - its an excellent movie)

As I said above, much of the diluting of history and geography education has to do with standards and testing, and teaching to the test. It also has to do with how much teachers now have to teach (think about the amount of history in the last 60 years) plus the many other things that teachers are required teach in general that used to be a parental responsiblity - nutrition, sex ed, info about AIDs. Its crazy.

My fav HF films include All Quiet on the Western Front, Lion in Winter, Hope and Glory, Last Emperor, Titanic (despite the acting and the script). At least those come to mind first.

cindy, luckily UK history teachers are not yet expected to teach about AIDS and sex . . . although soon, no doubt there may well be a A level history paper asking "The Sexual Revolution of the late twentieth century led to a pandemic of VD and Aids" Discuss. Maps, diagrams and lurid illustrations may be used where appropriate."

Mary, I have never come across Geoffrey Ashe, so cannot comment on his work.
A couple of interesting, though bulky, works by the archaeologist Francis Pryor might interest anyone keen on this period, and one needs to remember it takes in well over a thousand years . . . are Britain BC: Life in Britain and Ireland Before the Romans and Britian AD: The Quest for Arthur's England and the Anglo-Saxons.
I know he made the latter work on the back of a TV series so much time was spent visiting the sites associated with Arthur and after some archaeological fossicking around, FP demolished most of the myths about 'the once and future king'. But it did make for some pretty shots of Cornwall.

Here is a link that might be useful: Interview with Dr Pryor

Veer, my English teacher in high school showed us The War Lord back when one had to rent 16mm prints. As I recall, his motivation was to show us what medieval knights were really like as contrasted with the knights in Arthurian legend.

In a college Medieval European History course, we were required to read Josephine Tey's The Daughter of Time for the alternate view of Richard and the little princes in the Tower. It made for an interesting class discussion.

As I write, my daughter is out in a cold rain putting together a Renaissance costume for my grandson to wear while presenting a poster he is to make along with a little talk on Copernicus. He has to use two resources (since, I suppose, everyone has the internet now), draw some pictures, make 10 bullet points of the most important aspects of C.'s life, and something else I've forgotten. He is 12, in the 7th grade; but this is a private school. (Please don't breathe a word that she had to buy some girl's stuff for the costume.)

Cindy, when we had the King Arthur thread some years ago, Kate, a poster who loved the subject, said that Ashe was pretty well discredited. I was sorry to hear it because I had used him a lot as a resource in a paper I did in the history course I mentioned above and had thoroughly enjoyed reading his articles.

What a fun list, Georgia Peach. I feel silly that I'd forgotten Dumas wrote historical fiction.

Has anyone read the Polish Trilogy books (With Fire and Sword etc.) by Henryk Sienkiewicz (of Quo Vadis fame )? I've been interested in trying these, but they seem to be rare and expensive (even in paperback). Just thought I'd seek some opinions before perhaps investing.

Also, let me know your opinions on Edward Rutherfurd. I've been thinking about trying some of his books. Just wondering what RPers thought of his books (I know he's been mentioned here before).

I liked The Forest the best of the Rutherfurd books. He writes somewhat similarly to James Michener, and his books are huge, so I have found it hard to keep up with who belongs to which family down through time. This was especially true with London, and I was disappointed because that's my favorite city.

I'm glad to see this thread was brought back up. Do you feel that Rutherford's books are accurate, in terms of historical research? (I've not yet read his work and that is important to me).

woodnymph, I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to say if the Rutherfurd books are historically accurate, and I have been too lazy to look further. I can only say they contain a wealth of information that seems to have been well researched. Like Michener, they start so far back that some of it has to have been imagined.

One thing that struck me in London was a river family who had what he called webbed feet. I thought it was author's license until he finally explained that it was toes not completely separated. Very funny to me because I and one of my brothers have what the family calls "twin toes" -- the second and third toes on our feet have less separation that the others -- so I guess we are "webfooted."

Mary and Carolyn I reckon the Rutherford's books are as historically accurate as possible without getting in the way of the story. I enjoyed Sarum the most and I see that ER was brought up in Salisbury and seems to have a 'feel' for the place.

>Henryk Sienkiewicz (of Quo Vadis fame

My sis had to read Quo Vadis in HS so of course it was on our shelves and I soon started to read it. I loved it, read it again and again. Tried to read it a few years ago and it just didn't do anything for me. But those passages were so descriptive and visual that I couldn't help but be there. No, I haven't read his others, didn't realize he had more. Will have to look him up

Rutherford is like Galbadon for me - books that should have been right up my alley, but were so clunky for me that I gave up. Pity because I suspect there is a lot in both authors books that I would enjoy, but time is too short to read books that make me grit my teeth.

This thread is amazing. Thank you for adding so many titles to my TBR lists and piles. This is one of my favorite genres and many of these titles are new to me.

I have one to add that I've not seen mentioned:
The Agony and the Ecstasy by Irving Stone
This is a very well-researched yet fictional account of the life of Michaelangelo. A beautiful book about an amazingly creative man. Stone even had notebooks and diaries translated during his research for the book.

PAM

BTW - I forgot to mention that I finished King Hereafter earlier this week and loved it. I esp liked how it ended; had the right sort of impact, I thought, even though I felt weepy all day afterwards.

Thanks to Lacey, I now have Kristin Lavransdatter on my wish list.

I have been meaning to read that since I never was able to get through it with the old translation. The new tranlation sounds like it will read much better. I just put it on my list

I saw the movie Agony and Ecstasy many times before I finally tackled the book. It was very hard for me to separate the film as I read, but still a very good book. BTW, two non fictions you might like: Both are by Ross King, one about the building of the great dome in Venice, the other about Michaelangelo.

After I posted my first post, I tracked down the books by Bryher that I hadn't yet read. She's even better than I remembered. Short, spare novels with totally unimportant characters living on the fringes of great changes in their world, so you really get a feel for what life was like for the average person. Two grabbed me especially, , about the battle of Hastings, and , about the second Punic War.

I've tried twice now to correct my previous post in which I tried to use italics to write the book titles and succeeded only in having them totally eliminated. The forum doesn't want to take another post from me. Third try: The Fourteenth of October and The Coin of Carthage.

Laceyvail, use the with a small case i between them to begin italics and the same with /i to close. If you miss even one symbol, it eliminates your title. These are all done without any spaces between them or the beginning and the ending of your title, but you can space between words of the title.

Hope this is clear and helps. Practice away; we have all done it.

Um, Bruneschelli's Dome is in Florence, not Venice....sorry bout that

Carolyn, I thought that's what I did, and it worked properly on another site I visit. And when I tried to add the second post with the titles, the site refused to accept it. So, who knows? Maybe it doesn't like Bryher!

Well, thank you all so much! I now have an unbelieveably huge reading list to tackle this summer!! School break and no school bus runs for at least 10 weeks, yesssss!!! Reading all these titles brought to mind a movie that I saw one Sunday long ago. I came in near the end but it was with Helena Bonham Carter. She was quite young and I believe she was playing the part of a Lady Jane....Grey was it? Who was she and does anyone know of any good reads regarding the era she lived in? Also, what was the actual name of the movie?
Thanks, Kim

The movie was called "Lady Jane". The IMDB link is below. (Nice movie, by the way)

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091374/

kim, there are endless novels about Lady Jane Grey usually they have the words nine days somewhere in the title!
A miniature has recently been identified as 'probably' her portrait, the only known one painted during her lifetime.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lady Jane Grey

to the top

Early in this thread someone mentioned Alfred Duggan. My hometown library when I was a kid had a couple of them, but I was curious how they'd hold up now that I'm in my 60s and much fussier about fiction. Very well, as it turns out, and I am now in the process of tracking down all of them--and there are quite a few. You can get a complete list at fantasticfiction.

lacey-when you try to do several quick posts to one thread, the site does get cranky. all you need to do is change the text in the "subject of posting" box above the message box, and it will accept your subsequent posts. weird, but true!

Lady Jane Grey is an enigma, and thus an easy subject to "historic-fictionalize." Carolly Erickson, whom I have enjoyed as a biographer for many years, has been seduced by the success of the Other Boleyn Girl series into doing one of Lady Jane...imho, greatly inferior to her bios of the Tudors. sigh.

Or easier yet, just add an asterisk or a plus or any other sign to your text in the "subject of posting." Less typing and it works just as well.

Or easier yet, just add an asterisk or a plus or any other sign to your text in the "subject of posting." Less typing and it works just as well.