& Cindy - yes, I can imagine being sick of Lord of the Flies - especially if you've had to teach it! But I've only read it as a teenager, and not since.

I'll happily lead a discussion in the New Year. How about starting January 1st?

I love the book discussions here. Unfortunately, the most recent ones have been about books that I have already read (with the exception of T13thTale). I studied LOTF when I was a teenager at school and then more recently when my kids studied it at school, and frankly, that is enough for me. But the rest of you go ahead.
I'll volunteer to lead a discussion after February. Until then I'm part of a project at work that is sucking the life out of me and numbing my brain. But it pays exceptionally well and the extra money is going into my Travel Fund. One of these days I'm going to show up on Vee's doorstep and track down Dido in her cave. ;-)

But I'll try to join any other book discussions--maybe late, but better late than never.

I should have read L of the F's years ago but never did, maybe because I am always uneasy with books about 'disasters' (as in the other thread) and similar tales of catastrophe and tragedy and people behaving in an inhuman way towards each other . . . I feel like a voyeur, as with the crowds that appear at the scene of an accident or the ghouls who used to turn up outside a prison when a hanging was due.
Anyway I'm now well into the book and so far enjoying it.

Janalyn finding Dido's cave would be a veritable quest.
Bring accurate map references, bent hazel twigs and a Book of Ancient Runes. Be prepared to traverse the worked-out coal seams known as The Pits of On-going Decay and the steel-works Of Eternal Night until you arrive at the pub of Ever-Open Hours. You must repeat the age-old mantra (one of the few English expressions understood by Welshmen everywhere) "What is every one going to have to drink?"
The traditional reply will be "Same again, but make it a double, taar very much."
After many a long hour listening to maudlin songs of brave deeds and black saucepans you may be directed to the Smoking Slag Heap of the Snoring Dragon. The trail of crushed beer cans leads to Dido's bijou cave . . . and try not to comment on the oh so-70's avocado stalactites.

LOL!!

The Cave is a definite "Not To Be Missed." Although I'm not sure if I'll make it out of the pub of Ever-Open Hours as I enjoy singing maudlin songs of my brave deeds and am not used to drinking doubles... When in Rome...

Vee,

Only half of the stalagtites are green, do you mind! The others are Magnolia. And I'm saving the beer cans for Grendal to breathe upon and weld them into a sculpture-trouve with which to greet my guests.

Janalyn, I should love to welcome you to the cave. Haven't time to give you directions just at this instant but when you're ready, let me know. We'll have a fine old time. Off, now, to sunny Manchester for a week's work.

Dido.

Although I've not taken part in the discussions, I would like to try to do so in the future. Personally, I am in two book clubs and finding the time for a third discussion always seems do-able, but the books just somehow don't all get finished. I try to read the discussions and skip the spoilers.

As far as choosing "safe" books that do not cause disagreements, I think, vee, a few of us RP ol'timers still rememeber the difficulties of years' past and prefer to just be nice. IMHO, to improve upon the discussions, we have to pledge to discuss the book only..no opinion is right or wrong since they are just opinions. Discussion leaders should keep careful attention on the post and inject new questions when the discussion seems to go stale, and maybe adding some insight to the author would be interesting as well. Also (and this point goes straight back to past difficulties, not pointed at any recent discussions), we should always be careful with what we write in our posts because even though stuff might be typed while thinking one way, it can be read thinking in another way.

I'd love to be a part of discussions, but right now, I simply read the posts because I don't always get the books read.

PAM

Most delicately put PAM, although I do feel we should be grown-up enough to be able to politely disagree with each other without throwing a wobbler . . . as we well-mannered Brits say. :-)
Occasionally the fact that some of us come from countries other than the US might mean we are not all so aware of the nuances of language, so someone might make a comment/joke that in one country has us rolling in the aisles while people from elsewhere may be left either po-faced or deeply insulted.
I don't participate in any other 'online' sites/discussions and find everyone here very civilized.
However my DH is on a UK based gardening site and despite the Web Master-in-Chief and 4 moderators there are still quarrels about the most stupid things.
One member, an Irish nun/hermit (albeit a hermit with a computer and all mod cons) was elbowed-out because she made slightly 'religious' comments "With God's blessings my cauliflowers will do well this year." All fairly harmless stuff, but it still got up the noses of the angry brigade.

Janalyn: on the dragon theme.
There was a report in yesterday's UK papers about a Welsh butcher who makes his own sausages and markets them as 'Red Dragon Sausages'. The 'Label Police' have caught up with him and told him as his product does not contain dragon meat his labelling is illegal.
He has had to add 'contains pork' to the information.
And no, the date wasn't April 1st.

>I do feel we should be grown-up enough to be able to politely disagree with each other without throwing a wobbler

Exactly. Pam, I had no idea of the history here (tho have experienced similar problems in other forums), and had no idea of the pledge to be 'nice'. If you are worrying about stepping on people's toes, you won't have a discussion worth having. I understand the pledge to keep the focus on the books and not individual posters (and agree with veer - this is probably the most civilized group I have had the pleasure to participate with, civilized, intelligent folk who do not take themselves to seriously) But the best discussions I have even been involved with were ones where there was a definite like/dislike, and with much gray areas in between. Having seen what happens in a flaming contest, I know that I never want to see that here. But lots of vibrant, compelling, thoughtful discussion of the book can indeed happen without having to worry about offending. Just look at what we did with Small Islands, Birds Without Wings, Thirteen Tales, to name a few. I hope people are not staying away for fear of offending.

>we should always be careful with what we write in our posts because even though stuff might be typed while thinking one way, it can be read thinking in another way.

I agree, but part of the responsibility is on the reader. You can word a post in such a way that the intent is easy to read. But if not, the reader of said post should ask for clarification before they fly off the handle.

Whats funny is that on the other forum I've been on, its usually the worst offenders who balk at 'being nice', and they use honesty as an excuse for the way they blast people out of the water. I hope I am not doing that here. I just think there is a happy medium between 'being nice, polite, care for another cuppa tea' forum, and the flaming 24/7 so called discussions.

And veer, I've had experience with that kind of silliness. An example in real life: In this country we have a 'no tolerance' attitude towards any drug, any weapon on campus. So a kindergartener who makes a gun with his thumb and finger, and aims it at another child, or a teen who gives a friend some Tylenol because friend was having horrible cramps, were both suspended from school. People tend to go to extremes, and I think a group like us can use common sense and stay within limits of civil discourse without pressure to be 'nice'.

>Discussion leaders should keep careful attention on the post and inject new questions when the discussion seems to go stale, and maybe adding some insight to the author would be interesting as well

Totally agree. The leader should also be able to redirect personal comments back to the issue at hand.

And btw I am sorry I haven't been much of a leader on the Corelli thread. There just isn't much interest. Hopefully people are reading the book and are ready to jump in with their thoughts.

Vee and Cindy, I heard what I consider to be the perfect expression of what you are saying: "The ability to disagree without being disagreeable."

Like it! The perfect definition of a diplomat. (Along with the old chestnut "A person who can tell you to go to hell so nicely, you start packing for the trip!")

Cindy - we've never had a "pledge" to be nice here. It's just happened. We're just a good bunch of civilized people. Which doesn't say that we can't fight back if required - but in a civilized way.

The discussions tend to come and go - a lot depends on how many people there are at any one time (we seem a little sparse at the moment) and - of course! - whether a book attracts. I must say I wasn't aware that we were planning on discussing Captain Corelli's Mandolin, so I didn't get a chance to re-read it. But in all honesty, for me it was a bit too soon after Birds Without Wings...

I'll be "advertising" the Lord of the Flies discussion. I've found my own copy - it was hidden away in my step-daughter's bookcase. (Along with a few other books I thought I'd mislaid....kids eh!) Looking forward to re-reading this.

One of the great things I remember about RP was once when there was a 'heated' but interesting and informative discussion Cece, I think it was who 'said' - 'Hold my earrings I'm going in' - cant remember the discussion but do remember the good humour that accompanied the diverse opinions.
I dont put up '1984' as a discussion novel (does it always have to be about 'new' books? )but I think everyone (not just Rpers) should sit down and read or reread as an accompaniment to what is happening in our societies.

Oh, that was Cyndi's favourite saying...(cpepper)..who was one of the original posters here. We exchanged Christmas gifts one year. A few years back a number of us exchanged Christmas cards and bookmarks. If any of you would like to do it again this year, email me.

Joseph, Pat and Marg go way back, too. How long has it been? Anyone remember?

The only time discussions got rather difficult here- at least for me personally, was when we were discussing the Iraq war and there was no moderator. We've always been able to discuss sex here, but politics and religion are NO NOs. :) Just like dinner parties with certain of my friends.
My family enjoys differing opinions; it must be genetic because no one gets offended during family dinners when we discuss have rants about politics. The only thing that ever gets decided is that you can love someone even though you think they are political neanderthals. Oh yes --I just got a phone call from a family member about the Grey Cup football final which is playing as I type, and besides politics you can add sporting events. We all support different teams.

>I think, vee, a few of us RP ol'timers still rememeber the difficulties of years' past and prefer to just be nice. IMHO, to improve upon the discussions, we have to pledge to discuss the book only.

>we've never had a "pledge" to be nice here

Um - I read Pams post about five times to make sure I understood it. And obviously I needed a sixth time. I thought it said you guys actually pledged to be nice. Her post says something totally different. Mea Culpa

>We're just a good bunch of civilized people. Which doesn't say that we can't fight back if required - but in a civilized way.

I so agree - its a breath of fresh air, let me tell you, to be around the folk here.

>(does it always have to be about 'new' books?

I don't think so - it seems when the time comes to chose books, folks put up all sorts of recomendations. I would love to read (well, love is the wrong word, I'd be willing to reread) 1984, as well as Fahrenheit 451. Both are very prescient (actually, the latter more so).

I might make a suggestion - there was a thread a bit ago about adding new discussions. That was when Corelli was picked. But that thread disappeared, so I think many folks didn't get the message. Is there a place here, a calendar perhaps, that can tell people what the schedule of discussions might be, and when its time to recommend books?

janalyn, I have already been cautioned about my little asides that are political or religious and have tried very hard here to be good. Tho sometimes - damn, its hard to always keep my tongue (fingers) quiet! :) Problem tho - if we are discussing a book which includes various political or religious issues, how does the group handle that?

>The ability to disagree without being disagreeable."

I like this very much.

Well, books are different Cindy.
The Iraq thing was totally OT at a time when feelings were naturally high. If a book has a theme about religion and/or politics, then of course it should be discussed. We've done that in the past. It's sometimes hard to keep your own values out of a discussion like that but if you can state your own opinion while respecting those of others, there shouldn't be a problem.

Just recently, over at Circle Theater a fellow called Bill said that anyone who liked a certain movie was an idiot . Since there already was a discussion thread with about 70 posts by people who enjoyed the movie on the first page of the forum, I thought it was an interesting way of introducing himself. LOL! People don't do that here. It would be boring if we all agreed and often I have changed my mind about a book that I initially hated, after a discussion.

There aren't any rules here, btw. It just seems that the people who post are a courteous, generous and good-humoured bunch. Bouquets to all of you. Yourself included, Cindy, and I don't think I've ever seen you post anything that was offensive. Interesting and educational, certainly. Drat, it makes me wonder what I missed? :-)

Janalyn, thank you; I missed that bit on the Circle Theater... Bill's posts are too long for my taste so I mostly skip them.

RP is a very civilised forum mostly, but I'm glad that there is still strong discussion - otherwise you get into the realms of daytime television style, all 'ooh, isn't it lovely'. I like a bit of an edge sometimes, as long as it doesn't get personal.

So, 'Lord of the Flies'? When do we start the discussion? Do I have to actually read it or can I do the Sparknotes trick again ;-) ?

> Drat, it makes me wonder what I missed? :-)

Ha! I'll email you some time :) (thanks for the bouquet)

>good-humoured bunch

I have always maintained that the most underrated personal skill is a sense of humor. Not just funny ha ha, but the ability to see the absurdity not only in the world, but also in yourself, the ability to not take yourself too seriously. Its people with that skill that encourage me to listen to what they have to say. Without that skill, the person just sounds bombastic and over the top, and I ignore them as much as possible.

Go for Lord of the Flies. I'll probably not read it again, but I'd love to lurk in the discussion of it.

I can see that some of us have read TLOTF and may think they;ve had enough but I've always found it useful and stimulating to read 2 books on the same theme at the same time so I wonder if anyone would like to read Susan Hill's 'The King of the Castle' at the same time - both novels have been set at GSCE Lit levels - both are about children, both concern 'what lies beneath'. I think the comment from Elizabeth Bowen (below) would cover a dual reading.

Below is a quote from Susan Hill who writes about her novel..." But where did the dark side of the story come from, the hostility between the boys, the bitter misery and suffering of the victim, Kingshaw, the evil  I am sure the word is not too strong  of Kingshaw ? I have a little idea, but not much.

As a child, between the ages of about 8 to 10, I went in fear of one boy, the son of some people who kept a café my mother and I used to have lunch or high tea in sometimes. He was 11, he had red hair, and he used to ask me to go and play. My mother encouraged me  it`s always nice for a child to have friends, after all. He would take me to the store rooms behind the café, or into the empty couple of rooms above, and torture me  not physically, though he always pinned me against the wall, or tied my arms behind my back  but in every other way, by word, by threats, by intimidation. The things he planned to do to me did not bear thinking about, but his main torment was to talk about things I was afraid of  Punch and Judy men, huge dogs, the dark caves in the cliffs above the beach, dead birds, people who crept up the stairs or peered in through the windowsÂ. And of course, everything he threatened would come about if I told anyone at all about it.

After two years, we moved from that area of the town, I never saw him or went to the café again, and in any case, I was growing up. But those incidents, that bullying that took place over two terrifying years, remained deep in my memory, and left scars there. I am sure that much of what happened found its way into I`M THE KING OF THE CASTLE, albeit transposed into a quite different context and setting.

Elizabeth Bowen, the great novelist of the mid-twentieth century, talked tellingly of the appalling damage done by children to children, quietly whispering among themselves, and Graham Greene has said that the first twelve years of a writer`s life are the most significant; during that time, almost everything of importance he will ever write about, happens to him.

It never does to delve too deeply into those areas of the sub-conscious from which a writer`s inspiration comes, not for fear of any dreadful psychological consequences but simply for fear that, in the process of laying bare what is secret, and explaining it away, the treasure trove of the imagination will vanish. I am sure there is more of I`M THE KING OF THE CASTLE deep within me than I have explored. I prefer to leave it like that.

The book is primarily...

Jankin, "I'm the King of the Castle" sounds intriguing. I will look for it.

Anyanka, the thread at cinema forum that Janalyn is referring to is something along the lines of "Remember The Village?" (Incredible!)

Okay, sorry if the word "pledge" was misunderstood. It wasn't a literal pledge, just an invisible code of conduct or something... basic manners, I think.

Anyway, yes, a bit of an edge is always great. After all, one learns by hearing differing opinions and how boring it would be if everyone were just like me and so on. I just thought vee was asking for things that would make the dicussions better and so off I went on my soapbox.

I'll pass on Lord of the Flies, thanks. I am reading Crime and Punishment for a book club and that is enough in terms of darkness and psychological reading for this holiday season!

PAM

I'd be on for The King of the Castle if I can find it. I've always been a bit of a fan of Susan Hill. It would be an interesting contrast.

I was thinking of starting TLOTF on January 1st, but I could be persuaded to start earlier. Not too much earlier, though, as I need to find The King of the Castle and also Keep the Aspidistra Flying - my conscience is bugging me on the latter book.

jan, the way that came out, it looked like that had happened to you! I get it now.

>the appalling damage done by children to children, quietly whispering among themselves

Been there, done that, bought the tshirt. I was bullied a great deal in school - abd whispering and pointing, then laughing was usually all it took. Its usually hard for me to read a book, or a section of a book, that deals with children's cruelty. Can you tell me more about the book?

There was discussion of Lord of the Flies on RP a few years back. Somehow, it got sidetracked onto a debate about whether girls would've behaved the same. I mentioned John Dollar by Marianne Wiggins (Salman Rushdie's one-time spouse). Shortly after the thread became quiescent, I found a copy at a used bookstore, read it, and sent it to Robin, who passed it on to rebekka.

In any case, I dug through the boxes in the attic, and found my copy (as usual, it was in the last box), so I plan to participate.

I have LOTF's and never did get around to reading it-no idea why!
I would like to participate, but hopefully after January 1st as I am so behind with everything and my friend returns to England November 25th.
I have so much to do to get ready for the holidays and I have stacks of library books sitting here that I want to get to before they need returning.
I do plan to hibernate all weekend with my books and hopefully get at least two of them read.
I did just start Triptych by Karin Slaughter and have The Book of Fate by Brad Meltzer to go next.

Janalyn were you asking when we did the bookmark exchange or really got a jumpstart on firing up RP-that was you & Robin as I recall...and had to be about 1998...?

Pat

>Somehow, it got sidetracked onto a debate about whether girls would've behaved the same.

I'm not sure that would have been a sidetrack - I think its a very valid question, one that speaks of one of the book's themes -the innate characteristics of mankind, no matter what gender. As for me - I think the girls wouldn't have behaved the same - they would have done worse...

Since we are talking book discussions and ideas - if we do LOTF in January, should we start making a schedule for the next few months?

Jankin, now you've got me hooked! I've only read one Susan Hill, and enjoyed it; a 'compare & contrast' makes the re-reading and discussion of LotF much more attractive! Will get onto the library site and order.

As for the 'sidetrack' (valid discussion point in my opinion) - girls definitely bully differently - a great novel on that theme is Margaret Atwood's Cat's Eye. But let's save further discussion till we do LotF.

OK - here is a schedule.

January 1st - Lord of the Flies by William Golding. Leader - Martin.

Also - I'm the King of the Castle by Susan Hill. Discussion leader - Jankin? (Were you volunteering??)

Any suggestions for February?

I have a suggestion for the Christmas period - how about The Chimes by Charles Dickens? It's not one that many people know, but it's quite short, a bit sentimental (well, it's Dickens!) and might make a change to the usual Christmas Carol. Say starting December 15th?

I'm going to try to get LOTF from the library today.

Good point about "Cat's Eye." That's one I would like to re-read.

Pat, we did a bookmark exchange two Christmases ago....

I'd sign on for Chimes

I always read a story from the Dickens Christmas Stories collection in December and so would like to participate in The Chimes.

Yes, I'd love to lead on ITKOTC and I'm looking forward to rereading TLOTF.
There are substantial connections between the two texts.
Cindy I hope you can hang on till then.
Jan

If you have trouble getting a copy of The Chimes it is available on line at the site below.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Chimes

No problems here, jan!

Never heard of Chimes, but I like Dickens, so I'll try it.

Bringing this up for the new folks....

Chimes has arrived at the library for me! So I'll be ready for discussion on the 15th.

Wow, anyanka, you mentioned Cat's Eye. That one really did me in. I did read LoTF in the last couple of years but will probably not reread, as I remember wondering what the big deal was on this one. The King of the Castle sounds interesting so I might look that one up. Never heard of Susan Hill before.

I'm currently taxing thru Age of Innocense, just getting interested in Black Swan Green and, having just finished A Christmas Carol, the bookmark is set to The Chimes, in this wonderful Dickens trilogy I picked up on a whim.

Let the discussions begin.

Kathy, did you in in a good way or a bad way? Tough to read, or emotionally overwhelming? It may well be my favourite Atwood (a tough choice that I fortunately do not have to make).

Kathy, Susan Hill has a newish detective series that I've just found. The first is The Various Haunts of Men; the second, which I have just finished, is The Pure in Heart; and I haven't found the third, which was published in July. I really like these books.

I saw the play Woman in Black, which caused my adult daughter to grab my arm and emit a small scream; and I have Mrs. deWinter, in which Max's second wife is just as aggravating as she was in Rebecca--hasn't learned a thing!

I find Hill to be a very good writer.

I'll try LOTF...again. I first tried it when my kids read it. And I have tried many times since. It's still in my bookcase and I am very glad to see that I am not the only one that isn't eager to try it again. I thought that perhaps there was something unusually wrong with me!

If you don't see anything from me on the discussion, you can bet that I failed one more time. LOL

The strange thing is that I like fantasy and other oddball stuff, but I just can't get into the LOTF. I think it must be the writers style.

I don't think its fantasy - I'd put it in the catagory of dysutopian, along with 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World. And its hard to like some of those. I took an English class in HS on utopian literature, read some amazing stuff, but remember the hardest were the darker ones, esp when you could see some of our own world in them. So its not odd that its hard for some. Whats odd is that its often assigned to junior hi kids, and I don't think thats the intended audience (should hold off on this, save it for the discussion, nu?)

I agree that it is far from fantasy. I also think the theme would be wasted on Jr. Hi kids. I was in college when I first read it and even then the impact was far greater upon a second reading as an adult....

Cindy - I'm taking notes though...!

I was horrified by the behavior of the children in this novel. It took me back in time to a place where a "good" friend of mine and I competed for attention driven partly by a kind of jealousy we had for each other. It made me think of times when both of us were unkind to each other, but the young girls in this story really take it to extremes. I felt myself wanting to fight back for Elaine, all the while knowing I could not. So I guess this story really hit a familiar yet uncomfortable place in my heart which is why I had such a strong reaction to it.

In spite of this, I have more Atwood stories in my TBR pile, as I do overall like her writing because she does a good job of pulling me in emotionally.

> but the young girls in this story

I'm a bit confused - are you talking about LOTF, or Cat's Eye?

I think she may in fact be talking about The King of the Castle...

For sure, she means "Cat's Eye" by Marg. Atwood.

I think Kathy was responding to my question about her reaction to Cat's Eye; she said it 'did her in' and I wanted to know in what way, good or bad.

Thanks, Kathy. I agree that the girls' behaviour is extreme yet realistic. It can be emotionally overwhelming, especially if you have any experience like that in your own past (it rang bells with me, too), but that's exactly why I like it so much!

It was Cat's Eye I was referring to. I realized after I'd clicked submit that I hadn't really identified which I was talking about. Anyway, I have The Blind Assassin and Alias Grace. Which of these would you suggest I start on next? I'm leaning toward Alias Grace.

Oh, thats so hard to choose, they are both so good, yet so different! Alias Grace is based on a true story of a woman accused and convicted of murder. The psychologist in the early days of the profession goes to find the truth. Blind Assassin is a story within a story. The narrator is talking about her sister's death, but at the same time the reader has access to a diary (who wrote it is unclear). Both fascinating character studies, both incredibly good reads. So, the choice is yours :)

Alias Grace is a slightly "easier" book - The Blind Assassin has a story within a story within a story...! But I agree, they are both excellent reads.

Don't know why, but I thought The King of the Castle was also about girls bullying each other. I now have a copy, and I find I'm mistaken. But that's why I thought Kathy was talking about TKOTC.

Kathy, I also agree that your two Atwood choices are both excellent; I'd recommend reading Alias Grace first, because The Blind Assassin is the more complex, but also even more rewarding of the two.