I thought Fay was loathesome, but as the story went on, I did feel sorry for her-she was so clueless, so emotionally immature, and so out of her element when the Judge married her and brought her back to Becky's house, among Becky's friends. I doubt they did anything to make her feel welcome. She was like a cornered cat.
I liked Laurel best when she finally broke through the fog and let loose about the bread board. Up until then, she seemed to be encased in glass-probably since her husband's death-she was sad about her father, but at a remove.

Thanks, Martin, for organizing and heading up this discussion of 'The Optimist's Daughter'. I read TOD several years ago, and reading it again renews my appreciation of Welty's skill as writer. It's almost as though she can tell a story in a single sentence.
I agree, cc, I thought the behavior of Fay, or should we say Wanda Fay, was reprehensible. She was a self-centered, self-serving liar. I tried to find a redeeming feature in her personality, hoping to understand why the Judge would marry her, and all I could come up with is that she had an energy and a desire for life which she expressed freely in her words and actions. Perhaps that was attractive to him?
I couldn't muster up any pity for her, but I think Laurel did, despite her anger, embarrassment and confusion regarding Fay's behavior.
I liked Laurel throughout the story. She was the product of her upbringing as much as Fay was the product of hers. In fact, both women left home in order to build a new life away from their families and friends - maybe a hint that a close family and community has it drawbacks no matter who you are? Still, I liked Laurel's way of dealing with life better than Faye's.
Also, Laurel made an attempt to get to know Fay. Fay made no such overtures to Laurel, or anyone in Mount Salas, except the Judge.

I didn't particularly like Wanda Fay/Fay. I found her to be shallow and rude about Laurel and her relationship with the Judge. I did like Laurel, although it puzzled me at first why she was so silent about the death of her husband. I really liked it, as cc mentions, when Laurel let loose about the bread board and how important it was to her. I thought that was a good way to show the diffs between the two characters.

Could Fay have been a daughter figure for the judge? Someone to take care of and indulge? The women of the town obviously thought he had married her for bed, but I never really got that impression as much as paternal-Laurel didn't seem to need him anymore, she had her life in Chicago, Becky had died, and he was at loose ends. Fay was lively and young.

Did anyone else read this as a metaphor for the social changes happening in American society at the time? This was published in 1969, certainly a period of social upheaval. Here you have the people of Mount Salas, with their traditional standards, presumably genteel breeding and dislike of outsiders, contrasted against the lower-class, perhaps gold-digging, Wanda Fay and her embarrassing and mannerless family. Laurel herself is adrift between them, as both a working woman and the daughter of an Old Family, trying to understand Fay and the Judge before being able to clarify her own identity.

I may be reading too much into this, since Fay could hardly be considered a figure of the 60's counter culture. Perhaps it's more of a metaphor of class struggle?

In any event, I disliked Fay completely, and never felt sorry for her. She was completely self-centered and shallow. Her family seemed much wiser than she did. In places, Fay was positively loathsome.

I wasn't sure what to make of Laurel. I liked her, but she seemed too passive. She had a career in Chicago, she'd been married, I expected more energy from her. I wanted her to fight Fay for part of her father's legacy. The final scene with the breadboard gave me hope that she might be able to have some spark in her life when she went back to Chicago.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the birds? Laurel was frightened by the pigeons (doves?) when she visited her mother's home, and there was the bird that accidentally got into the house while she was there alone. What did it represent and why did she fear it?

Sheri - there's also that mockingbird in the background when Laurel and the bridesmaids are talking....

I read The OptimistÂs Daughter several years ago, and when I read it again for this discussion, I realized that my perspective had completely changed and made me appreciate it even more the second time. IÂll explain that in a moment.

What did I think of Fay? I think she was spoiled, shallow, manipulative, insecure, flighty, selfish, and thoughtless, as well as thoughtlessly and carelessly cruel. I also thought that in some ways she was a victim: a victim of her upbringing, her family, the Mount Salus elite, and her own desires. It was difficult to feel sorry for her, but at times, even though I despised her and her weakness, I did feel some sympathy for her. Her dismay at finding her family present downstairs when she descended from her bedroom to see the JudgeÂs body for the last time indicated to me that perhaps she felt that she had finally escaped them by marrying the Judge, only to be confronted with them again once he was lost to her.

I liked Laurel, even though she had suppressed her emotions and her emotional losses for so long that I longed to shake them to the surface again. Laurel was the very essence of a sensible, practical, dutiful daughter. One might even consider her uptight and restrained. She was, in fact, the very opposite of Fay until the moment she confronted Fay about BeckyÂs breadboard.

I think that the Judge married Fay because she was young and vital and because she was the opposite of Becky. Close to the end of the book, Laurel makes the observation that the rivalry between Becky and Fay didnÂt lie where Fay thought it did. "ItÂs not between the living and the dead, between the old wife and the new; itÂs between too much love and too little. There is no rivalry as bitter; Laurel had seen its work."

IÂm not sure what to think about all the birds in the books: the pigeons, the mockingbird and cardinals in the garden. I did wonder about the bird that was trapped in the house, though, wondering if the chimney swift in some ways represented Fay. The house had been cleaned, and the bird, covered with soot from the chimney, left smudges wherever it rested, much the same way that Fay was ruining and leaving her mark on LaurelÂs childhood memories and home. Then, when Laurel finally trapped it and released it outside, Missouri said, "All birds got to fly, even them no-count dirty ones." For some reason, that made me think of Fay.

The reason this book made an even greater impression on me upon reading again has to do with my own recent experiences. My mother died three years ago at age 64 from ovarian cancer. She was in and out of hospital several times before she died. One day, when I was sitting beside her bed when she was in hospital, she sighed and said, "I told your daddy that itÂs all right with me if he decides to marry again and that if he finds the right woman, then he has my blessing, although," she said, as I glimpsed a glimmer of that old, familiar twinkle in her...

Do any of you have a favourite scene from TOD? Mine was when the old friends got together in the garden to discuss recent events. They were so funny and yet respectful in their way that I could just imagine being there with them in the garden listening to them. It was a wonderful scene and one that I thoroughly enjoyed.

I liked cc's theory about the sooty bird being Fay. It seems to fit, doesn't it?

As for why the Judge married Fay: I think he was lonely and looking for someone to love and he saw her as a way to influence someone, in a parental manner. I think he wanted to "save" her in a way - from her family, from her upbringing, etc.

As to why Laurel didn't marry: I didn't find this strange as sometimes people don't always marry once their spouse or partner has died. (Or if they do, it takes a long time to do so.) I just thought she wasn't ready or interested to take that step just yet.

I enjoyed the book. I had no idea what to expect as I have never read it before, but I enjoyed it. Never heard of it before so thanks for expanding my horizons. Always good to do that. :-)

not my theory, CMC's-but I like it too!
As far as Laurel not remarrying-the lack of marriagable young men after WW II was not as severe as post WW I, but still, a large number of young men lost their lives then-perhaps it was a combination of lack of interest and lack of opportunity.

Martin, many thanks for taking the lead on this discussion.

I found myself, instead of contrasting Fay and Laurel in search of differences, to look for similarities. Both were simply products of their own socio-economic group and behaved accordingly. The most obvious moment to see this in action was after the funeral, back at the house. Laurel, as her parents taught her, was straight-backed, dignified and proper whilst exhibiting no emotion. Fay "chose the right moment" to throw an overly emotional fit and run off which made her mama quite proud. The only reason, in my opinion, that Fay stood out so was because she was truly out of her element. If positions had been reversed and it was Laurel alone with Fay's family, she too, would have been equally singled out. This class difference is akin to what those in England may be familiar with - whether in the past or present.

And the "goosipy" bits were simply small town life in action. Nothing different about that... in my life, I call it the "mama network".

PAM

Like sheriz, I see this novel as a metaphor for society. Welty was somewhat prescient as she does not focus on political issues but rather crass materalism/boundless energy vs. civilized values/priviledge and class.

Maybe because I just finished a literature class, I also noticed the plot is so straightforward as to be a minor feature; the tension and drama come from the characters.

Fay is an extreme character - would any woman have been treated differently? What if the judge had married a woman like his daughter - a local girl who had moved away, become educated, and returned?

Why did the judge marry Fay? He must have had other alternatives.

>The only reason, in my opinion, that Fay stood out so was because she was truly out of her element.I'm not sure I agree completely. Fay is a trouble maker, and I think this is what brings a lot of tension to the story. Even though her family, her own element, stands beside her in her loss, they don't seem overly fond of her, nor is she of them. When she says she wants to go home with them after the funeral, the first response is from her mother who wants to know how long she plans to stay, and then her sister says. "I haven't heard your excuse for going yet. You got one?" Fay then complains that they didn't bring with them the only family member who 'speaks her language'. This brother, DeWitt, is not held in high esteem by his family, but he is the one Fay wants to talk to.

Fay obviously had something that the Judge, and the Major, found appealing. Still, the Judge's vision was not what it used to be. Even before the detached retina, he had a cataract on the other eye. Laurel questions how much he was really 'seeing' before the surgery, and Welty uses a curious legal term in describing Laurel's reaction to Fay's sudden appearance in the family: "It was still incredible to Laurel that her father, at nearly seventy, should have let anyone new, a beginner, walk in on his life, that he agreed to pardon such a thing." It seems to me that Laurel is seriously questioning both her father's ability to "see" well, and to use good judgment regarding Fay.

I did a little googling around, and found a pair of interesting essays about this book. These two writers, in proper English Major Form (vbg), have managed tease out a tremendous amount from the story, from straight-forward autobiographical references to underlying word play to images from Greek mythology. Scroll down past the blank space on the website, the essays follow. I thought the second essay in particular was very interesting.

I agree that the image of the sooty bird represents Fay rather than Laurel (as one essayist asserts).

Here is a link that might be useful: Imagery in TO'sD

Sheriz6, thanks for the links to the essays. I hadn't read any critical essays of the book but kept intending to do so. After reading through them rather quickly, I had the same thought that I've had before about stories and novels: Are they really that complicated or is sometimes a rose just a rose and nothing else? Interesting essays.

I also found myself wondering if anyone else did what I did when I was reading TOD and found themselves instantly recognizing characters in the books as people they already know in real life. I felt I could cast each character quite easily, even though I think the competition to fill the role of Fay would be quite fierce as I can think of several who matched her toe to tip.

Sheriz6 - the link was very interesting - thanks!

I was also considering how Welty used her descriptions of flora and fauna to soften and bring peace to an otherwise bleak situation, as well as perhaps serving figuratively in the story. Without those 'pictures', it might have been tough to read the book.

An illness and death of a family member is an emotional roller-coaster for most people, I believe. This book made me wonder: What do I expect of my friends and family at a time of sorrow. Do I expect too much from them? Is there a norm of behavior that is in place that is inflexible in me?

Some interesting comments here. I like the idea of the bird being Fay - crashing around here and there, making a mess of everything and not really wanting to be there at all, but not knowing how to get out of it.

But she was a truly loathsome person, wasn't she? I tried to find a redeeming feature, but she was just ghastly. You didn't even get the impression that she had much in the way good looks. I agree that the judge probably wanted someone to be a father to, rather than anything else - but for heaven's sake! he could have found someone better than that, you would have thought. Still, it's been said many times that there's no fool like an old fool....

I felt for Laurel given the situation - the house should probably have been hers. But you didn't get the impression that she wanted to stay in the town, even. She had her good job in Chicago; that's why I found it odd that she'd never remarried. She was young when she was widowed, and obviously missed him - but you don't up and leave your home-town and go for a new career in a new town and still wear widow's weeds all the time.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I find the all characters a bit unrealistic. That's not to say that I found them unconvincing - not a bit of it. I found the book fascinating, and the interplay between the characters very convincing. I just can't quite see how they got to where they were.

I thought "the bridesmaids" were quite interesting. I just felt that they were a sort of Greek Chorus, just giving commentary behind the main story. I couldn't really tell one from another - they were just a bunch of women. I had a clear visual picture of Laurel, Fay and Major Bullock - another silly old fool - but the rest sort of faded into the background, all looking a bit the same.

(I hope I don't grown up to be a SOF...!)

I liked the essays - they didn't seem to be so much airy-fairy rubbish as these things so often seem to be. I must say I'd missed the fact that the blind came down twice in the Judge's room until it was pointed out.

Enough for the moment...

Any thoughts on this comment by Laurel:
>When someone lies sick and troubled for five years and is beloved, unforeseen partisanship can spring up among the well.Laurel then goes on to describe the flaw she saw in her father - it was his inability to recognize or admit (or see?) that not everything was going to be "all right" for her mother. Laurel turns against her father for a while - and this is also the time the Judge starts describing himself as an optimist.

Was his optimism real? Helpful? How is it possible that people who truly love an ill or dying family member can end up turning against one another?

>How is it possible that people who truly love an ill or dying family member can end up turning against one another? I've seen that happen first-hand-I think for a couple reasons. There is a stage of grief that involves being angry at the ill or deceased person-and that feeling is too difficult for many people to bear-so they redirect the anger. Also, there is the irrational but real feeling that "You never cared about ___ as much as I did." or "You didn't do enough to help ____." The family around a loved one often closes in, pulling the circle tight against outsiders, and then becomes too insular, and turns on each other as a way of dealing with the grief-anger is often less painful than the sadness of loss. Anger is energy-loss is emptiness.

cc- I appreciate your comments very much, having also experienced it first-hand but being completely baffled by it. Welty's statement rings so true that it seems she must have certainly been involved in a similar situation. Welty is very skilled, IMO, at writing clearly and simply about this difficult time, which is a collision of many strong emotions. - eg: At one point in the story,Laurel gets angry and chastises the bridesmaids as they are remembering some of the funny, even silly, times her parents shared among them. But Tish says -"We weren't laughing at them.....Aren't we grieving? We're grieving with you." What a blurry line there is between 'laughing at' and 'laughing with'; and probably the line is blurred even further at the time of a death. Grieving takes a myriad of forms, and some are not easily recognized, it seems.

Did you have any thoughts on the child Wendell? He certainly brought contrast into the situation, but anything else?