Auggghhhhh!!!!

Well, you have to say that if the opposition actually MISS two penalties (as in miss the goal completely), and you STILL lose the penalty shoot-out, then perhaps you don't deserve it...

Portugal have NO chance against Brazil or France though, on that showing.

But England are out...and frankly, until Rooney was sent off, we didn't play well enough to win. And once he was sent off (which I personally thought was harsh!) it was always going to be hard.

Oh well. Bring on the European Championship in 2008!

Cece - admit it - in spite of my request, you were supporting England, weren't you?

Ah me. Today is sports extravaganza day. Sorry about England.

I was going to say I pick Brazil to take it all, but France just scored...

I tried, really I tried....but I just couldn't do it. I refrained from posting, though...thought that might help. My DS is downstairs quietly mourning Brazil's ouster, and Ronaldinho's absence from the tournament.

My DS has pointed out that we'll miss the final weekend-we'll be on a plane on Saturday and at his tournament on Sunday-so it's okay that England and Brazil are out, since we can't see it anyway.

ok , let's do a little of summing up
U.S. out, Australia out, England out, Italy in.
But the only Italian who posts here (namely me, at least to my knowledge)
doesn't support his team.
That's really bad luck

grelobe

Mais non! Moi, je suis Francais, et nous avon beaten le tres bon Brazil par un goal a nil...!! Et ils sont les winners de la previous Coup de Monde!

Allez les bleus!

Alors, Martin! Vous parlez Franglais! Moi aussi!

La mère de mon grand-mère maternel était française. Le père de mon grand-mère maternel était allemand. Les grand-pères de mon père étaient anglais. Hélas L'Angleterre. Maintenant j'encourage pour la France et l'Allemagne. Je ne peux pas encourager pour le Portugal ou l'Italie.

(Avec mon dictionnaire. C'est plus d'amusement que les travaux domestiques.)

Well, grelobe, you may not be supporting Italy, but they are now in the final.

No-one would blame you if a tiny bit of you were cheering them on on Sunday...!

This has been a fun thread to read - yes in answer to your question Martin, I do know about the World Cup, know that we are the only country who has little interest in it despite our participation, know that we got into the quarter finals last time, and that several years back our US Women's team one the Women's World Cup against China in an incredible game (in fact, the attendance at the Pasadena Rose Bowl was the largest ever for a women's sporting event)

Saw my first World Cup when I was in England, thinking it was 94. The bed and breakfast we were staying in had a huge tv and we all sat around watching. Tons of fun being around the native fans. We not only got caught up in the excitment, but several were nice enough to explain things as it went along.

>We often watch sports with no volume...or watch the tv with radio commentary

I do the same. With soccer or gymnastics during the Olympics, I usually just put on music. With basketball, I listen to our local AM radio announcer doing the play by play commentary (Al McCoy is an icon around these parts, He's been here forever, and I can't imagine not watching a basketball game without hearing his voice)

>around here, soccer is considered more of a female sport

Not here - I see boys playing it as much as girls. But I do notice that once they get to HS, they start choosing other sports. Pity, coz its a great game.

Not sure who to root for now.

I must confess yesterday I rooted for my country. the reason is that Italy vs German for us and the Germans is a derby
German has never been able to defeat us. We won in Mexico '70, in the semi-final, and in Spain '82 in the final, and this fact gives them a lot of...I don't know what, but let's call it "resentment"
As a matter of fact before this last match German press threw upon us a lot of rubbish, saying we Italian are good only to do pizza or to be waiter , that we are unworthies, cheaters, parasite , crooks; that they (the Germans) if we had won, they shouldn't have eat pizza or spaghetti again, and others nice things.
So yesterday I couldn't curb my spirit and supported my country.
But I must also add, that our press reported, that German people before the match was respectful toward our supporters, people in the stadium rooted for German in a civil way without provoking us, and both team played without bitterness
So only German press went crazy about this match

grelobe

Well, let's be fair. ALL national press are capable of this sort of xenophobia - it sells newspapers.

For example, I thought it was interesting that it was Sky Italia who searched every inch of the footage of the scuffle between Argentina and Germany, and eventually found a four-second clip of Frings punching Cruz - which got a ban for Frings. I'm not saying that Germany would have won with Frings playing, but it didn't help!

But well played Italy - I didn't watch the match, but they definitely showed a never-say-die attitude. When it got to extra time, Germany were probably unconsciously playing for penalties, whereas the Italians were playing to win. Good for them - the reviews in the papers implied that they were probably the better team on the day.

Allez les Bleus! France vs Italy in the final, I hope.

This has been a great thread to follow as I knew little about the World Cup and my kids don't play soccer. I finally watched part of the game yesterday during our July 4th cook-out. One of our good friends is from Germany, and those two Italian goals at the very end nearly did her in.

I agree, grelobe-for what would have been called a "grudge match" in the US-two teams that have a bitter history with one always defeating the other-it was a fairly clean game-not too much of the elbowing, grabbing, tackling and deliberate attempts to injure that we have seen in other games..the Portugal/Netherlands game comes to mind. The referee was almost invisible but the game was always under control-the mark of a great referee.
My nephew is home from his semester in Russia-we had a wonderful time watching the game together, and explaining it to the rest of the crowd.
Martin-the question came up and we couldn't remember-when did they go to the long, 15-15 minute overtime instead of the golden goal? We both think they did have it in 02, but we aren't sure. And why do you think they didn't institute another 15 minute, golden goal overtime between the 15-15 and the PKs?
I was looking forward to seeing the German keeper pulling his notes out of his sock again. If it had gotten that far, I think Germany would have had the advantage.

Extra time, as played today, is the norm, and has been for many many years. Until the mid-seventies if a match was not settled after extra time, a replay was planned. Then they introduced the penalty shoot-out.

But FIFA can't leave things alone - they always want to try new things. And they don't introduce new ideas in minor tournaments - oh, no - let's try the Golden Goals experiment in the World Cup.

If they had said that the Golden Goal just went on till someone scored, then fine, I guess. But no - if a half-hour was played with no golden goal, it went to penalties anyway. So the weaker team would just hang on for grim death, and the stronger team were less likely to take risks to win, as a goal against them was a complete disaster. Result - MORE penalty shoot-outs, not less.

Extra time normally works. I think that in the modern game, with the fitter players, there is an argument for twenty minutes each way, rather than fifteen - it always seems such a short time. But apart from that, I wouldn't change it.

I'd play until someone scored-but I'd allow another sub for every 30 minutes.

ah...at least somebody wearing red, white and blue is going to be in the finals...

I'm being a bit of a grump about it, I suppose, but why is it that again rich countries made it to the final? It would have been wonderful to have a Pakistan / Ghana final or whatever. You keep hearing about how soccer is the great democratic sport that anyone can play, you just need a ball, but here we are again watching millionnaires kick a ball around. It's a shame that you need a rich country to train elite athletes, even in this sport. How wordly is it if all four semifinalists are European countries?

That being said, although I love Italy I cannot stand Italians' Commedia dell'arte on the field. When's the match again? It'll probably be a fun atmosphere in Little Italy, at the very least.

Well, Brazil have won the World Cup more often than any other team. So it's not quite as simple as it being rich countries. Mexico did well, and have a good record in the World Cup, though they've never won it. Argentina have won the World Cup, and Maradona is arguably the best player to have ever kicked a football.

It's not just money - there's got to be a passion for the game. That's why I suspect the USA will occasionally do well, but will probably never win the World Cup, whereas the South Americans will always be there. As for England - well, we have some wonderful players, but I think we still can't quite believe that we're not the best in the world, and tend to only start to play properly when the chips are down. Which is frequently just a little too late.

But I think there will be an African finalist soon(ish).

The final is on Sunday - kick-off is at 7:00pm UK time, 2:00pm New York time.

The other problem with the US soccer is overorganization. On our broadcasts there are a wonderful series of commercials of boys playing soccer, in their imagination, with players from the World Cup teams-no grownups, no coaches, no drills...they are just kicking the ball around and pretending they are their heroes. The series is called Jose + 10 and I love them. In the US, we start them in organized leagues in kindergarten, teaching skill drills-there is a lot of standing around waiting for a chance to take a shot on goal or dribble through the cones, instead of a gang of kids playing keep away and developing the sort of foot skills they need to compete at this level. Those rollovers, the pullbacks, the dinks, the one-touches-even the nutmegs come from having the ball on your foot all the time, just playing around with it and seeing what you can do. If they play anything in "pickup" mode, it is our football-because that's what most of them see on TV. But even that is overorganized-there's a midget league for everything. Rarely do they just go out, find a few friends, and play. Instead, they have practice three nights a week and games every saturday-complete with coaches and refs. At age 7. Overorganized. They also miss the chance to develop the problemsolving skills that arguing over an out of bounds or a foul used to foster-when there were no adults there to smooth things over.

Yes - we have the Jose + 10 ads here too. "Beckenbauer?" That joke is probably lost on most people in the US; the point is that all the other players are modern players, but Franz Beckenbauer was one of the finest midfielders that has ever been - he was active in the late sixties and early seventies. He actually played for West Germany in the 1966 World Cup, when he was 21.

My nephew thought it was the 70s-he caught the "out of place" name, I didn't. I find myself humming "If you don't give my football back, I'm gonna get my dad on you" around the house...the power of the AD!

Well, who'd a thunk?

So Italy are the World Cup winners. Congrats to grelobe, who I'm sure was supporting them despite his best intentions not to...

But oh, Zizou! One of the finest players in the world, scores in his final match before retirement in the World Cup Final - and then makes sure that everyone remembers not that he scored, but that he got sent off for violent conduct. And it wasn't what you might call a contentious decision either....

Such a shame. It sounds melodromatic, but he's let his team-mates down, he's let his country down and he's let football in general down. What a stupid, stupid, STUPID thing to do.

I knew there would be a thread on this!

My daughter has been fervently supporting Italy throughout this World Cup and some of her passion for the sport has been somewhat contagious. So I have watched a few of the games and have these comments and questions.

1. It's better than N. American football.
2. I understand that these athletes make obscene $$$ (just like the professional basketball, American football and hockey players do here), but I wonder how much is spent on acting lessons. I have never seen so many elite athletes tumble and roll around in complete agony (cough...) while looking anxiously at the ref for a penalty. I felt sorry for those DOC guys carrying stretchers hither and thither for no reason. In the World Cup history, has there ever been an incidence when they've actually carried someone away? Zindane was looking for an Oscar nomination before he headbutted that Italian player -- and I agree that was probably the stupidest thing I have ever seen a pro player do. (And there have been many!!) I mean, perhaps he did get concussed just before he scored that penalty shot??!!!! What was he thinking? Yeah, he let football down for potential fans all over the world.
Martin, in hockey there are penalties for "unsportsmanlike conduct" which we usually call diving: going down easily, pretending injury when none has occurred. Why doesn't soccer have this? There were pathetic examples of this in all of the games I saw and enough of them that it put me off the game as a spectator sport. The refs should call this. Similarly, we have penalties for "intentional delay of game" where a player hits the puck out of the rink for example, in order to take the pressure off/cease momentum or get a breather. Anyway, before TV and instant replay, a lot of those "fouls" would probably get by, but now those athletes just look like unsportsmanlike. Boo, hiss. What a terrible example for young players.

Thank you for allowing me to vent. I have more comments and questions but later....

It's good to be back,
J

Hi Janalyn!

Martin, I had an idea this morning for games drawn at the end of extra time. What would happen if you took the two goalkeepers off? That would surely make it much easier to score a goal, and IMHO be fairer than a penalty shoot out, but due to my poor knowledge of the game, I don't know if it would even be feasible.

Hey Kath!!
Sudden death overtime would be preferable to watching a dice roll, which is what happens in this game. Those keepers (new term for me) have to make a decision to go left or right, and if they are wrong, too bad. Given the size of the nets, it's a matter of chance and there isn't any skill involved. Even I could score...okay, well that may be going a bit too far.
These games are generally very low scoring. Sudden death overtime would be very exciting. It could come down to a simple case of last man standing, but hey, this is a sport about endurance and physical fitness isn't it?
FWIW, I thought Italy was superb defensively but France had some very good offense - they lost it when Zindane (am I spelling that right) had the brain lapse.

Whew! The extravaganza is over. I'm happy for grelobe, even though he had reservations, it is his country after all.

All in all, I didn't like the final game. The drama king rolling about. That awful head-butting thing, the 30 minutes overtime followed by penalty kicks. I know my Americanism is showing here, but I don't like that. The world championship shouldn't be decided by a shootout.

I do enjoy the athleticism that is so very apparent in this game.

When the game went into overtime, I resigned myself to missing the multi-colored Sox game that was being played at the same time. The Red Sox and White Sox obliged me by going into extra innings - 10 of them! So I ended up watching over a game's worth after all. Glad that's over (not as glad as the players, though).

Maybe in four more years the U.S. will make a better showing. Let's hope!

Yes Martin, yesterday I supported our team, and I felt happy for our players, not for our coach, and thanks Siobhan,
but I must say, I don't agree with our rhetoric press that doesn't stop saying how great we was and are.
The most trite question they ask to our player and executive is , what in your opinion was the secret for the victory? and the even more trite answer is, The Group, our friendship our willingness not to surrender ever, and blah blah blah and so on and on.
In my opinion eventually we deserved the title, but we were lucky in our path in order to reach the semifinal, I mean : Portugal had to win against Holland and England, Germay defeated Swedish and Argentina, French won against Spain and Brasil, we played against Australia and Ucraina, two good teams, but without tradition, namely still a bit too naive to compete at the top.
We truly deserved to win against Germany, yesterday was a little different, first time Italy played well but without being never dangerous, in the second time, French held the ball longer, but also them never built anything really incisive, but I have to say that each time Thierry Henry took the ball aiming toward our goal line, my heart stopped beating, what a powerful player he is.

Astrokath, you idea to take off the goalkeepers is very fantasious and funny, but I don't think will match FIFA managment mind.
Time ago some one thought to change the penalty shot rule after extra-time in this way : the player should have started from the midfield and the goalkeeper would have been free to go toward the player or to wait for him in the goal area, I think it was tested in juvenile tournments but the thing ebbed away.

Janalyn , also in soccer there's simulation fault, but referees rarely whistle it , and usualy only in the goal area

grelobe

So - the World Cup is over. Well done, Italy.

Here's a few thoughts.

1) Yes - too much diving and simulation. In theory, a ref should give a yellow card if he suspects a dive - but in actual practice, it's too risky. What I'd like to see is retrospective punishment. If a player is detected in a dive by video evidence, then an automatic one-match ban is applied. Let the ref decide merely whether it was a foul or not, and decide whether it was a dive afterwards.

2) Here's a real positive. There were over two hundred drug tests during the World Cup. Not a single one was positive. Drugs is just NOT a problem in world soccer.

3) Not a good World Cup, but not a bad one. A wonderful goal by Joe Cole, and that Argentinian goal from a move of 24 passes...sublime.

4) England were dreadful. Enough said.

Any of you colonials seen enough to consider watching a few games during the season? Keep an eye out for Arsenal in the Champions League or the Premier League.

Sorry Martin, soccer just isn't my game, I'm afraid.
However, knowing that you are an Arsenal fan means that I do listen to the results on the TV or radio news and hope they have won for you.

Now everyone, repeat after me, 'the Adelaide Crows can win the AFL premiership this year' *VBG*

Okay. I have a really dumb question. I can't think of anyone else to ask. Why was Italy wearing blue in the final?

Siobhan - That's their uniform colour. I know this because my daughter bought a jersey before the Cup started and wore it every game day. You would think they'd wear green or red but perhaps blue is more flattering. ;-)

Here's a dumber question: That was real grass turf but the turf was in stripes: light strip followed by darker. Is this different grass types or artistic mowing? Told you it was dumb.

The game we watched was broadcast by a couple of English fellows. Some of the idioms and pronunciations were different and caught my ear. Also the way Europeans say "Italy were..." and "France were.." while here we would use the singular.

Yes, I would now go to a soccer game, although they better call those dives. No one here would respect players who would do that so obviously. I enjoyed being able to watch a game where the athletes were identifiable as human beings. No massive amounts of protective gear that acts like a disguise! We have a professional team although they aren't paid that well and typically play around here and the western US coast. I have never been to a game. However, a new world class stadium right on the waterfront is being proposed and today my family emailed the City council and Planning dept to indicate our support for it.

I have to say that Kath's Aussie football players make the European soccer players look delicate when they play. Now those guys take punishment.

Jan, Siobhan - Italy and France both play in blue normally, so they tossed to see who would be playing in their "home" strip, and Italy won.

The strips of grass is artistic mowing. The most impressive bit of that I ever saw was at Arsenal last season, which was the last season at Highbury Stadium. They'd mowed Highbury 1913-2006 into the grass. (It seems that there is a company which specialises in that sort of thing...!!!)

Here is a link that might be useful: Highbury 1913-2006

No Martin, about the definition of color blu there's a misurandersting, because what you call blu in Italian is translated "azzurro" and in French "azur"
(cote d'azur). Azzurro , azur and English "blu", is the color of the sky , and of the eyes. For instance I'd say in English, I've got blue eyes, and in Italian Io ho gli occhi "azzurri" in French azur.
Colour French teams is blu in Italian and French (actually in French blue) but in English I think is "dark blu"or "navy blu"
. So to summing up I' d say "the azzurri (blu in English) are playing against the "blu" (dark blu in English)

Janalyn, we don't wear blu color (azzurro) because is more flattering :) but because under fascism in the thirty's in Italy reigned "Casa Savoia" and our flag was green white and red but in the middle there was Casa Savoia 's heraldic device , and in this heraldic device there was some blu (azzurro in Italian). So Mussolini or someone else for him set the rule that our athlets had to wear a blu uniform in honour of our reigning house

grelobe

Well, 8 years ago I followed the World Cup with interest, my favorite player (looks-wise) was Fabio Cannavaro, but then he cut his hair and he looks rather ordinary now, but I was pleasantly surprised to see he was captain of the Italian team, because it meant that I have the eye for the guy, you know.

But honestly, soccer is too low scoring and the field is too big, at least compared with hockey, of which I used to be quite the big fan, living in a hockey town. To be honest, I don't like to watch any sport anymore, because it's usually always the same, try to get the ball in the net, and after a few games, well it seems redundant, always the same aim, same rules, same everything. And, you know, it's a bit sad, one team very happy, the other very disappointed, and it seems to me that there are better things to use those emotions on. My husband (Made in Italy) watched the final and I was outside reading and he kept calling out the play by play to me and I had to tell him to stop, because I was getting tense, even though I don't even care.

Thank you so much for the explanation of blue, that indeed answers my question! Maybe it wasn't so dumb after all. Yes, I would have thought Italy would wear green, red or white. I just couldn't figure out where the blue came from.

Fenway Park in Boston has a beautiful mowed pattern - lovely to look at and surely lots of work.

On the Colbert Report last night, Stephen tried to prove that actually, the USA won the World Cup. See, our team was the only one who didn't lose to Italy. We tied 1-1. So - shouldn't we get at least half the trophy and glory? :)Just thought I'd share that....

Nice try - but had it been necessary, the USA would probably have lost to Italy in extra time - remember they were playing 9 men against 10....

Oh, I know. Besides, our goal was scored when the ball hit an Italian player's leg and bounced into the net. So....

And in one of those little ironies - the year the World Cup returns to Italy is the year that Juventus, Lazio, Fiorentina and AC Milan are implicated in the biggest match-fixing scandal of all time.

I know you personally are upset about it Grelobe, and my sympathies are with you. What I was curious about is - what's the feeling "on the street", so to speak? Do most people feel that they've been caught red-handed, and deserve their punishment? Or do people feel that it's all a bit much?

And, if you don't mind me asking - who do you personally support? How does it affect you directly?

Missed out a link I intended to include....

Here is a link that might be useful: Italian Trio relegated to Serie B

We had a similar article (martin's link) in our paper today. I'm not sure if I understand what they did...were the players involved? It seems to suggest that they weren't; but how does one fix a match without involving players?

You do it the simplest way - you ensure that the referee knows which side has to win, and make it worth his while. It only needs one or two "dubious" decisions in every game.

Here is a link that might be useful: A very Italian scandal

Yesterday I purchased The Thinking Fan's Guide to the World Cup, a collection of stories edited by Matt Weiland and Sean Wilsey. I wish I'd had this book before the Cup, but I'm sure I will enjoy it greatly. Also, I think it will be a good 'souvenir' as the stories are all very topical and not always just about soccer.

by Martin//And in one of those little ironies - the year the World Cup returns to Italy is the year that Juventus, Lazio, Fiorentina and AC Milan are implicated in the biggest match-fixing scandal of all time.
I know you personally are upset about it Grelobe, and my sympathies are with you. What I was curious about is - what's the feeling "on the street", so to speak? Do most people feel that they've been caught red-handed, and deserve their punishment? Or do people feel that it's all a bit much?\\

And, if you don't mind me asking - who do you personally support? How does it affect you directly?

First of all, sorry if I am late, but it is because I usually spend my week ends at the sea side.
How is the feeling "on the street" ,it is a question to which is rather difficult to answer. Because I think we (Italians) have some good qualities, but one difect we have for sure, (of course more than one but..) we are always ready to join the winner's side; we say " to climb up the winner's cart". For instance, before the World Cup started our team gathered at Coverciano, somewhere in Tuscany, to start their training. Well, people would go over there not to support them, but for yelling things like: you son of b... or, go to do a real work or, you are only piece of s..... This because, a few players , especially Cannavaro our captain, at the outset of the scandal backed the way of acting kept by his executive's team (juventus). Polls showed that the majority demanded Lippi resignation (our coach) , this also if Lippi is not directly involved in the scandal, but his son is. He, Lippi's son with Moggi's son, rules one company that "trades" players and coaches, and this company was so powerfull that could even effected other teams market-players; for instance Inter F.C some time plays with 11, I say it again, eleven foreign players , and this because "Gea" the compnay rule by Moggi and Lippi's sons didn't let promising Italian football player to be enrolled by Inter F.C.
To answer your question Martin , I dare say that normal people think the punishment is well deserved (less Juve, Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina's supporters of course) :) This because this way to act, not only effects direct rivals , like Inter, Rome , Lazio itself and others, but also other teams.
I'm tryng to explain: Janalyn you ask how it is possible to fix a match without getting involve players. Martin has already answered you in part, but referees can do other things.
Let's do an example, today there's Juve vs X and Bologna vs Y , and next turn will be Juve vs Bologna. So today, Bologna vs Y referee can shows a yellow or better a red card to the better Bologna's midlefield or striker, so Juve will have an easier way next turn, and in this way Bologna is damaged twice.
Besides as I already said Moggi and Lippi's sons are the manager of a great number of skilled players and other players not so skilled , so...

Martin and grelobe - Thank you for taking the time to respond. It does sound very corrupt and I hope that the refs who participated in this scheme get charged too.

grelobe, you made a few errors but certainly nothing to blush about. I admire you for learning English and have certainly seen a great deal of progress since you first started posting here. Congratulations! My daughter, the Italian soccer fan, is taking "Italian" as one of her electives at university next year. If she needs help, I shall direct her to you!

grelobe, thank you very much for taking the time to explain all of this, I find it very interesting. You don't need to blush, your English is excellent. You are explaining complicated ideas and concepts and doing a fine job of it, too.

I am getting very interested in all of this and am lamenting that I have to wait another four years!

Siobhan - you only have to wait two years for the European Championship....though I don't know whether the matches will be shown in the US...

I'm guessing that many of the games will be shown on our cable channels. I'll have to watch for them. When I finish my book, I'll know loads more about the behind-the-scenes interactions that make it all so interesting.