Actors who define the literary characters they portray

20 years ago

I'm interested in hearing some examples of actors who have really defined our perceptions of the literary characters they portrayed. Someone on another thread mentioned that Jeremy Brett "was" Sherlock Holmes, and I have to agree. For many years my mother's idea of Holmes was Basil Rathbone (and I think he was the standard often used by illustrators) but that changed in a heartbeat when she first saw Brett's portrayal, and she's not one that gives up old ideas easily.

Of all the Elizabeth Bennett's in the world, I like Elizabeth Garvie's rendition in the old BBC version, but I don't think you could say she really "defined" the character.

Will anyone other than Daniel Radcliffe ever be Harry Potter?

Your candidates?

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Comments (98)

annpan
20 years ago
There have been a number of RP posters praising various portayals of Elizabeth Bennett and Darcy but has anyone particularly liked a Jane Bennett? She never seems cast well to my mind. She should be the beauty of the family but usually is outshone by Lizzie! Julia Sahwalia as Lydia though was just right for me.
I loved Kevin Kline as Bottom. I suddenly realised that Shakespeare must have based that character on an actor he knew as Kline brought him to life. Anyone know who that actor was or could have been?
MusicMom
Original Author
20 years ago
I agree on portrayals of Jane Bennett. Lizzie always steals the show. I guess that's because she's the main character, but it makes "...and you look very nice too, Lizzy..." seem a bit ironic. The most pronounced instance of that irony was in the Bollywood movie called "Bride and Prejudice," (loosely based on the book and quite hilarious) in which the Lizzie character is played by, I believe, a Miss Universe pageant winner. The Jane character was pretty, but didn't stand a chance.

I find that I have a hard time appreciating individual character portrayals when I don't like the overall screenplay much. Wynona Ryder did a very good job as Jo March, but I wasn't too thrilled with the movie overall (Smarmy... LOL!!!!) so her portrayal doesn't stand out in my memory as definitive. Same with many of the characters in Lord of the Rings. I hated hated hated the screenplay (what in the world were they thinking, messing with Faramir like that??? And why was Legolas surfing on an oliphant that shouldn't have been there in the first place????) so I tend to overlook the really memorable performances. (No offense to you who love the LOTR movies... I know I'm in the minority. :)

Someone mentioned Yul Brynner. To me, he is definitely the King of Siam, and Rex Harrison most definitely is not.
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Here are a few more characters I think apply to the main question: Billy Kwan in The Year of Living Dangerously by Christopher J. Koch and in the subsequent film starring Mel Gibson, Sigourney Weaver, and Linda Hunt. I read the book first and in it there is no doubt that Billy is male. Actually, there's none in the film, either, except the role of Billy is played by a woman. When I first saw the film, I didn't know that the actor is female, so I wasn't wowed by the fact that she played Billy so convincingly. Some watchers, however, can't seem to get past that fact. At any rate, without Billy Kwan, a heterosexual male dwarf, the story wouldn't be much beyond the typical love affair during difficult times. (That descriptive of a particular type of a small-sized person is not PC, I know, but good grief, things do have to be taken in context of the times depicted.) Flora in The Piano by Jane Campion and Kate Pullinger and in the film starring Holly Hunter, Harvey Keitel, Anna Paquin. The book actually came after the film, in one of the rare instances when a novelization of a screenplay is quite well written, probably because Jane Campion, the screenwriter and director, had her hand in the novel as well. As memorable as Flora is in the film as the daughter of the main character, Ada, I was pleasantly surprised that her actions were translated to the book in depth. Sally Bowles in Christopher Isherwood's Berlin Stories and in a couple of films: "I Am a Camera" (Julie Harris in the role of Sally) and in "Cabaret" (with Liza Minnelli as Sally) Sally Bowles was English in Isherwood's stories and in "I Am a Camera" (although Julie Harris, the actress, was from the U.S.), but she's American in "Cabaret." I read somewhere that Minnelli was so perfect for the part, but she couldn't sustain an English accent so it was logical to change Sally's nationality. I agree in this instance. What about Harry Lime in The Third Man, a novelization by Graham Greene of his own screenplay for the film of the same title starring Orson Welles, Joseph Cotten, and Alida Valli? Apparently, Greene wanted the character of Holly Martins to be English instead of American. But he always wanted the villain to be American. Greene did not have a very high opinion of Americans. Instead, Martins as played by Joseph Cotten is a Yank. But which is the main character, Harry Lime or Holly Martins, in spite of the billing order of the starring actors? The English characters, all of whom could be said to be secondary, are some of the best ever, I think: Major Calloway (Trevor Howard), Sergeant Paine (Bernard Lee), and Crabbin (Wilfrid Hyde-White). What do you all think of those characters? Good choices or not? I'm trying to think of very well known books and films that many people have probably read or seen, although it is likely more have seen the films.
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That was a long. but very good start of the day quotes. Can't but agree with most of them and the second quote very much reminds me of my parents. They taught me tolerance in a time where it was not the thing to do.
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Oswald Mosley Quotes British - Politician November 16, 1896 - December 3, 1980 There are periods in history when change is necessary, and other periods when it is better to keep everything for the time as it is. The art of life is to be in the rhythm of your age. Oswald Mosley Anyone who knows how difficult it is to keep a secret among three men - particularly if they are married - knows how absurd is the idea of a worldwide secret conspiracy consciously controlling all mankind by its financial power; in real, clear analysis. Oswald Mosley A prophet or an achiever must never mind an occasional absurdity, it is an occupational risk. Oswald Mosley Great men of action... never mind on occasion being ridiculous; in a sense it is part of their job, and at times they all are. Oswald Mosley Jesse Stone Quotes American - Musician November 16, 1901 - April 1, 1999 We need to work to keep from getting rusty. Jesse Stone Kansas City, I would say, did more for jazz music, black music, than any other influence at all. Almost all their joints that they had there, they used black bands. Most musicians who amounted to anything, they would flock to Kansas City because that's the place where jobs were plentiful. Jesse Stone Everybody knows who Gandhi is. Who knows Jesse Stone? Jesse Stone I had written a tune called 'Shake, Rattle and Roll,' but the white stations refused to play it - they thought it was low-class black music. We thought what we needed was a new name. But a white disc jockey named Alan Freed laid on it, and he thought up the name 'rock n' roll.' Jesse Stone Rhythm and blues started even before phonograph records were being produced because black people entertained themselves. It wasn't done for money. It was done for entertainment. Most white people didn't know anything about this because prejudice kept them from ever seeing what was going on. Jesse Stone The publicity and hoopla was never important to me. Jesse Stone Fame is a fickle thing that only lasts as long as you can be out there offering yourself to the public. And as soon as you relax for five minutes, they're gone, you know, and they're following somebody else. Jesse Stone I've been given my money. Nobody has ever beaten me out of one quarter. And that's all I've ever been concerned about. Jesse Stone Burgess Meredith Quotes American - Actor November 16, 1907 - September 9, 1997 I disappear from the public eye and get rediscovered quite often. Burgess Meredith Jean Fritz Quotes American - Writer Born: November 16, 1915 The first 13 years of my life, I lived in China. My parents were missionaries there, and I was an only child. Often I felt lonely and out of place. Writing for me became my private place, where no one could come. Jean Fritz The way they taught history in schools was not appealing. They stressed wars and dates. They left the people out. I was attracted to history by the need to know about the people. In China, I went to a British school, and we just learned about kings and queens. Back in America, I had the regular social studies curriculum. Jean Fritz One of the most important things in my childhood were the new books that came in. I feel sorry for kids today who have so many other options like television that they may not value books as much as they could enjoy them. Jean Fritz As a biographer, I try to uncover the adventures and personalities behind each character I research. Once my character and I have reached an understanding, then I begin the detective work reading old books, old letters, old newspapers, and visiting the places where my subject lived. Often I turn up surprises, and of course, I pass them on. Jean Fritz My mother had been a Latin teacher, and she was always very fascinated with words. She and I shared books and responded to them. Jean Fritz My interest in writing about American history stemmed originally, I think, from a subconscious desire to find roots - I felt like a girl without a country. I have put down roots quite firmly by now, but in the process, I have discovered the joys of research and am probably hooked. Jean Fritz When I lived in China, there were no libraries. My mother bought books for me, and they were mostly the classics. I read 'Peter Pan,' 'The Secret Garden,' the 'Rosemary' books, and Kipling's 'Just So' Stories was one of my favorites. No, I didn't read historical fiction. It didn't exist where I was growing up in China. Jean Fritz The question I am most often asked is how do I find my ideas? The answer is I don't. Ideas find me. A character in history will suddenly step right out of the past and demand a book. Generally, people don't bother to speak to me unless there's a good chance that I'll take them on. Jean Fritz Jose Saramago Quotes Portuguese - Writer Born: November 16, 1922 Human vocabulary is still not capable, and probably never will be, of knowing, recognizing, and communicating everything that can be humanly experienced and felt. Jose Saramago What kind of world is this that can send machines to Mars and does nothing to stop the killing of a human being? Jose Saramago The world is governed by institutions that are not democratic - the World Bank, the IMF, the WTO. Jose Saramago It is economic power that determines political power, and governments become the political functionaries of economic power. Jose Saramago Inside us there is something that has no name, that something is what we are. Jose Saramago It is difficult to understand these people who democratically take part in elections and a referendum, but are then incapable of democratically accepting the will of the people. Jose Saramago A human being is a being who is constantly 'under construction,' but also, in a parallel fashion, always in a state of constant destruction. Jose Saramago Death is present every day in our lives. It's not that I take pleasure in the morbid fascination of it, but it is a fact of life. Jose Saramago As citizens, we all have an obligation to intervene and become involved - it's the citizen who changes things. Jose Saramago I think we are blind. Blind people who can see, but do not see. Jose Saramago People live with the illusion that we have a democratic system, but it's only the outward form of one. In reality we live in a plutocracy, a government of the rich. Jose Saramago I never appreciated 'positive heroes' in literature. They are almost always cliches, copies of copies, until the model is exhausted. I prefer perplexity, doubt, uncertainty, not just because it provides a more 'productive' literary raw material, but because that is the way we humans really are. Jose Saramago Abstention means you stayed at home or went to the beach. By casting a blank vote, you're saying you have a political conscience but you don't agree with any of the existing parties. Jose Saramago Words were not given to man in order to conceal his thoughts. Jose Saramago Things will be very bad for Latin America. You only have to consider the ambitions and the doctrines of the empire, which regards this region as its backyard. Jose Saramago The wisest man I ever knew in my whole life could not read or write. Jose Saramago We're not short of movements proclaiming that a different world is possible, but unless we can coordinate them into an international movement, capitalism just laughs at all these little organisations. Jose Saramago There are plenty of reasons not to put up with the world as it is. Jose Saramago The novel is not so much a literary genre, but a literary space, like a sea that is filled by many rivers. Jose Saramago I am the same person I was before receiving the Nobel Prize. I work with the same regularity, I have not modified my habits, I have the same friends. Jose Saramago In the end, I am quite normal. I don't have odd habits. I don't dramatize. Above all, I do not romanticize the act of writing. I don't talk about the anguish I suffer in creating. I do not have a fear of the blank page, writer's block, all those things that we hear about writers. Jose Saramago Americans have discovered the fragility of life, that ominous fragility that the rest of the world either already experienced or is experiencing now with terrible intensity. Jose Saramago The painter paints, the musician makes music, the novelist writes novels. But I believe that we all have some influence, not because of the fact that one is an artist, but because we are citizens. Jose Saramago I was a good pupil at primary school: in the second class I was writing with no spelling mistakes, and the third and fourth classes were done in a single year. Jose Saramago I believe myself to be the type of person who does not complicate his life. I have always lived my life without dramatizing things, whether the good things that have happened to me or the bad. I simply live those moments. Jose Saramago I am traveling less in order to be able to write more. I select my travel destinations according to their degree of usefulness to my work. Jose Saramago Beginning with adolescence, my political formation was oriented in the ideological direction of Marxism. It was natural, being that my thinking was influenced by an atmosphere of active critical resistance. That was the way it was during all of the dictatorship and up to the Revolution of 1974. Jose Saramago To continue living, we have to die. That's the story of humanity - generation after generation - that we are going to die. There's nothing dramatic about death except that one loses one's life. Jose Saramago I always ask two questions: How many countries have military bases in the United States? And in how many countries does the United States not have military bases? Jose Saramago The attitude of insolent haughtiness is characteristic of the relationships Americans form with what is alien to them, with others. Jose Saramago The problem is that the right doesn't need any ideas to govern, but the left can't govern without ideas. Jose Saramago I do not just write, I write what I am. If there is a secret, perhaps that is it. Jose Saramago There are times when it is best to be content with what one has, so as not to lose everything. Jose Saramago Society has to change, but the political powers we have at the moment are not enough to effect this change. The whole democratic system would have to be rethought. Jose Saramago In effect I am not a novelist, but rather a failed essayist who started to write novels because he didn't know how to write essays. Jose Saramago I can't imagine myself outside any kind of social or political involvement. Jose Saramago I am a person with leftist convictions, and always have been. Jose Saramago In the end we discover the only condition for living is to die. Jose Saramago I presume that nobody will deny the positive aspects of the North American cultural world. These are well known to all. But these aspects do not make one forget the disastrous effects of the industrial and commercial process of 'cultural lamination' that the USA is perpetrating on the planet. Jose Saramago Being fired was the best luck of my life. It made me stop and reflect. It was the birth of my life as a writer. Jose Saramago I think the novel is not so much a literary genre, but a literary space, like a sea that is filled by many rivers. The novel receives streams of science, philosophy, poetry and contains all of these; it's not simply telling a story. Jose Saramago The period that I could consider the most important in my literary work came about beginning with the Revolution, and in a certain way, developed as a consequence of the Revolution. But it was also a result of the counterrevolutionary coup of November 1975. Jose Saramago The world had already changed before September 11. The world has been going through a process of change over the last 20 or 30 years. A civilization ends, another one begins. Jose Saramago I am not a prophet. Jose Saramago Can you imagine what Bush would say if someone like Hugo Chavez asked him for a little piece of land to install a military base, and he only wanted to plant a Venezuelan flag there? Jose Saramago Americans have discovered fear. Jose Saramago Perhaps it is the language that chooses the writers it needs, making use of them so that each might express a tiny part of what it is. Jose Saramago Though I had come into the world on 16 November 1922, my official documents show that I was born two days later, on the 18th. It was thanks to this petty fraud that my family escaped from paying the fine for not having registered my birth at the proper legal time. Jose Saramago At the end of the 1950s, I started working at a publishing company, Estudios Cor, as production manager, so returning, but not as an author, to the world of letters I had left some years before. Jose Saramago I can't imagine myself outside any kind of social or political involvement. Yes, I'm a writer, but I live in this world, and my writing doesn't exist on a separate level. And if people know who I am and read my books, well, good; that way, if I have something more to say, then everyone benefits. Jose Saramago I don't defend the idea of universal love. It has never existed and will never exist. Jose Saramago Without the faintest possibility of finding a job, I decided to devote myself to literature: it was about time to find out what I was worth as a writer. Jose Saramago The U.S. needs to control the Middle East, the gateway to Asia. It already has military installations in Uzbekistan. Jose Saramago Look what happened with the employment law in France-the law was withdrawn because the people marched in the streets. I think what we need is a global protest movement of people who won't give up. Jose Saramago I had no books at home. I started to frequent a public library in Lisbon. It was there, with no help except curiosity and the will to learn, that my taste for reading developed and was refined. Jose Saramago I am a better novelist than a poet, playwright, or essayist. Jose Saramago I was born in a family of landless peasants, in Azinhaga, a small village in the province of Ribatejo, on the right bank of the Almonda River, around a hundred kilometres north-east of Lisbon. Jose Saramago For me, writing is a job. I do not separate the work from the act of writing like two things that have nothing to do with each other. I arrange words one after another, or one in front of another, to tell a story, to say something that I consider important or useful, or at least important or useful to me. Jose Saramago When I am occupied with a work that requires continuity - a novel, for example - I write every day. Jose Saramago A writer's definitive death is when no one reads his books anymore. That's the final death. Jose Saramago
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Which actor/actress do you think was perfect -in fact made - the role?
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>>How many of your favorite picks above followed someone else in the role they were perfect for? >> Good point! For instance, Diana Rigg was not MacNee's first partner on The Avengers; Honor Blackman as Cathy Gale was his original partner. Elements of the Gale character carried over into Mrs. Peel's persona, but as the series progressed there was a clearer delineation between the two female characters. When it comes to Fitzwilliam Darcy in P&P, however; much as I love Lawrence Olivier in the old Hollywood movie, Colin Firth still edges him out, I think. BTW, if you enjoy Sally Fields, I've always considered 1991's Soapdish one of her most fun and underrated roles. She's a takeoff on TV soap superstar Susan Lucci and the cast was phenomenal: Kevin Kline, Robert Downey, Jr., Elisabeth Shue, Whoopi Goldberg, Teri Hatcher, Cathy Moriarty, Garry Marshall, Kathy Najimy, and Carrie Fisher! Which reminds me, I loved Whoopi as Guinan in Star Trek Next Generation. When she sticks a fork into "Q"'s hand to emphasize he's now human instead of one of the Q Continuum, we almost fell off our sofa laughing! Hmmm, does this mean that Tribbles are perfectly cast as....themselves?
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veer
20 years ago
annpan I think Shakespeare would have know all the actors he wrote for as they were a close knit company in which many of them were share-holders. Quite different from today where actors have to audition for parts and travel widely for jobs.
WS probably had different people in mind when he wrote although I understand no-one was allowed to 'hog' all the best parts and everyone had to take it in turn to play 'girls'.
They even owned the buildings in which they performed. So when, for eg the lease ran out on the 'Theatre' the cast upped and took it down, heaved it over the River Thames to Bankside and reopened it as 'The Globe', (where the replica stands today).
It was two of WS's old actor chums Thomas Pope and Henry Cordell who collected up all his MS's and had them bound into what we now know as The First Folio saying they did it not for money but 'only to keep alive the memory of so worthy a friend and fellow alive that was our Shakespeare.'
I don't know if anyone has read 1599 A Year in the Life of William Shakespeare by James Shapiro? I have heard good things about it, and it is on my 'borrowing from the library' list.
woodnymph2_gw
20 years ago
Vee, I've not read the Shapiro book on the bard, but I am currently reading Stephen Greenblatt's "Will in the World: How Shakespeare became Shakespeare". I'm finding it fascinating and highly recommend it.

teacats, I also adored the film "Shakespeare in Love." It was elegant, funny, and poignant and IMO captured the spirit of the times.
friedag
20 years ago
I also think "Shakespeare in Love" is great fun. But the first time I saw it, a bell went off in my head: I had read something very, very similar to it but couldn't think where. Later, while browsing The Common Reader catalog, I noticed No Bed for Bacon by Caryl Brahms and S.J. Simon and recognized the storyline. Sure enough, when I reread the Brahms-Simon satire (first published in 1941), I knew that was it. But nowhere, as far as I can tell, is that book credited for being the basis of the film -- it's not in the credits of the film itself or at IMDb. Evidently, though, I'm not the only one who thinks the similarities are more than a bit suspicious. I highly recommend No Bed for Bacon -- I think it's hilarious; and I would enjoy hearing other opinions from those who have both read the book and seen the film.

Here is a link that might be useful: No Bed for Bacon
sable_ca
20 years ago
Nyree Dawn Porter and Eric Porter as Irene and Soames in the BBC's original Forsyte Saga. True, the females in that version are very late 60s-early 70s in their heavy makeup, and the sets are stagey, but IMO that does not detract from the quality of the story. The remake of a few years ago, with Gina McKee and Damian Lewis was atrocious. Not only did it did not follow the book in various details, but McKee was a disaster as Irene. IIRC Galsworthy described Irene as a blonde, with looks to drive men wild. Poor McKee - bony, gawky, with her eyes squinted at all times to look as dreamy as possible - was not fit for the role. I couldn't look at the watery-eyed Lewis and so didn't watch the second half of the story. But I can't believe that he achieved the redemption that Eric Porter so quietly portrayed.

Thank goodness the original has finally been released on DVD.
ginny12
20 years ago
Thank you for reminding me of that one. It was truly great. I was so immersed in it that I started to read the books--nine of them, I think--and had to force myself to slow down so I wouldn't get ahead of the TV show and ruin the suspense for myself. When the new version came on a couple of years ago, I agree that it was awful. Gave up after two episodes. I emailed PBS and asked them why they just didn't show the original. They said the "production values", whatever that means, were not up to current standards. I'm so glad you let us know it is out on DVD.
carolyn_ky
20 years ago
I agree about Nyree Dawn Porter. She was great as Irene as well as gorgeous.
annpan
20 years ago
Veer, thanks for that. Sounds like a superior Repertory Company!
I was surprised to read that Agatha Christie liked Margaret Rutherford as Jane Marple. She was totally unlike the description and her crime scene involvement in the films and general heartiness grated on me. So unlike the "home life of our dear Victorians!"
veer
20 years ago
annpan I think any 'Rep' that could boast a cast that included Shakespeare as actor/writer would have been onto a winner!

Frieda I heard the theatre producer/radio presenter Ned Sherrin talking about No Bed for Bacon. He and Carol Brahms with Malcolm Williamson (Australian Master of the Queen's Music) turned it into a little-remembered musical in the early '60's.
The book has since been reprinted.

Here is a link that might be useful: No Bed for Bacon + Shakespeare in Love
woodnymph2_gw
20 years ago
Vee, thanks for posting the interesting link above. I had never heard of this book, but think it's a shame it has languished in oblivion. How far can an author go in borrowing ideas from other works without being sued? Yet, in recently reading about Shakespeare, I was surprised to learn that he borrowed many ideas for his own plays from works extant.

On another topic: I saw both the Olivier and Branagh versions of Henry V. I still prefer the vibrant. lively film of Branagh to the inimitable Olivier.
friedag
20 years ago
Vee, yes, thanks for the Salon article. I did notice the change in the film of Viola's last name -- from Compton to De Lesseps -- and a few other things, but the basic story is too similar to just "be attributed to the common pool of Shakespearean lore," in my opinion.If Stoppard and Norman did find inspiration for "Shakespeare in Love" in "No Bed for Bacon," their borrowings would certainly be in the finest tradition of the Bard himself, who never met a plot in old books he didn't like.Of course back in the day before copyrights, writers so freely borrowed each other's ideas that it's tough to sort out who originated what. I remember a Shakespeare professor blowing our minds (it was the '60s) by saying that Shakespeare was the biggest plagiarist of 'em all: he originated very little, BUT he made things better.

I mentioned to my mother that I was talking about "Shakespeare in Love" (which she gets a real kick out of) and the similarity to the Brahms-Simon book. She said to me, "I could've told you that! Go in my room and fetch my copy of No Bed for Bacon. I've had it since the war [World War II]." She has allowed most of her library to mingle with mine, but she has kept a few of her most-treasured books for her own bookshelves. Her copy is probably the one I read when I was a kid.

I really like the lead-in to Branagh's "Henry V" and the realism of it; but Olivier will always be Henry V, to me, as well as Richard III -- the nasty version of Richard, that is. And Claire Bloom will always be Lady Anne.

Now, I don't care what anyone else says, Leonard Whiting and Olivia Hussey are the best Romeo & Juliet. Yes, Zeffirelli's film hit me at just the right age. :-)
woodnymph2_gw
20 years ago
Frieda, I completely agree about Whiting and Hussey as R & J. Earlier, I had seen the tepid screen version with Laurence Harvey and Susan Shentall. There is no comparision! And the more modern version just did not cut it with me.

How about the film "Becket"? One of my favorites. For me Richard Burton will always be Thomas a Becket and Peter O'Toole the pathetic king.
anyanka
20 years ago
I cannot remember what Whiting and Hussey looked like, although I saw the film at an impressionable age. Whatever impression it made was wiped out completely by di Caprio and Claire Danes.

On a completely different note, and one where the film preceded my reading of the book by a long way - can anyone here think of Frankenstein's creature and NOT see Boris Karloff?
friedag
20 years ago
Well, anyanka, not exactly, but I have to admit that usually the first image that flits through my mind is Peter Boyle, as the creature, "Putting on the Ritz." Of course that's cheating because the "Young Frankenstein" monster is a spoof on the look of Karloff.

I read Tess of the d'Urbervilles a long time before I ever saw any of the filmed versions. I've now seen three, but Nastassja Kinski's image in Roman Polanski's "Tess" is the one I carry with me, even when I reread. And Angel Clare is the actor (can't think of his name) in that filmed version, too.

Speaking of Kinskis: I always think of Klaus Kinski as Kostoyed (the vein in his forehead and his saying "Lickspittle") in David Lean's "Doctor Zhivago." I saw the 1965 film before reading the book -- in fact, it took me years to get over the disappointment that the film and book were rather dissimilar. Rod Steiger is, in my opinion, outstanding as Victor Komarovsky. Sam Neill as Komarovsky, in the made-for-television remake, is good; and in many ways that is a more faithful version, but I'm afraid that Sharif and Christie will never be eclipsed in my mind (in spite of the hokey hairdos and makeup and very-1960's fashion sensibility) -- nor will Geraldine Chaplin as Tonya, nor Ralph Richardson as Alexander Gromeko, nor Tom Courtenay as Pasha Antipov/Strelnikov. I disliked Keira Knightley as Larissa and the poor actor who played the "new" Yuri...well I can't recall his name or his face. I hope I can accept Knightley better as Lizzie Bennet when I see the new "Pride and Prejuduice." Back to "Doctor Zhivago" for a moment: That house in the country, in the 1965 film...oh my, that house defines Varykino, in my mind.
cindydavid4
20 years ago
Hee, my DH is watching the new P&P. He loves the old one. Says this one is like watching the 6 hour series on 45 rpm.
georgia_peach
20 years ago
Just chiming in to agree that Whiting and Hussey were, for me, the definitive Romeo and Juliet. I also saw the movie during my formative teen years, so that may have something to do with it. I also agree with Frieda re the casting for Doctor Zhivago. Did Geraldine Chaplin ever go on to do anything else in film? That is the only movie I've ever seen her in (at least, that I can remember).

I didn't see the DiCaprio / Danes version of R&J. For some reason, the ads for it didn't appeal to me, so I never sought it out. I've read rumors on the net that Martin Scorsese has been interested in bringing Dan Simmons' Hyperion saga to the big screen with DiCaprio starring as Raul Endymion. Ever since reading that, I've pictured DiCaprio as Endymion. Unfortunately, it is also rumored that Scorsese may retire soon and has lost interest in that project. Probably just as well. It would be a very challenging series to adapt to film.

What do you think about Alan Ladd as Shane? It's another movie I saw before I read the book, but it stands out as one of those movies where the actor forever after personified that character in the minds of his audience throughout the rest of his career.
veer
20 years ago
re Geraldine Chaplin, I remember seeing her in Chaplin the biopic about her father. Didn't she play the role of her own grandmother? I think she has appeared in some 'foreign' (ie non English speaking) films.
I didn't know Shane was taken from a book. Isn't that the film where we first hear the lines "A man's got to do what a man's got to do"? And is it true that AL had to stand on an out-of-shot box while kissing Veronica Lake?
As I've never read anything 'cowboy/Western' it would be interesting to know how many of these films came originally from books.
friedag
20 years ago
I can't think of Shane without seeing Alan Ladd's face. Shane, both the book and film, go so far back with me that I don't know which I experienced first.

Oh-oh! Georgia, Geraldine Chaplin is wonderful as Queen Anne in Richard Lester's "The Three Musketeers" and the follow-up (actually filmed simultaneously) "The Four Musketeers." Indeed, she did play her own grandmother in "Chaplin" and her performance was very poignant. She was also the very-odd Nina Soames in "White Mischief," and the hard-as-nails Miss Scratcherd in the 1996 version of "Jane Eyre" (the one with William Hurt and Charlotte Gainsbourg).

Vee, you mean you've never read Owen Wister's The Virginian? Or Ferber's Giant? There are lots and lots of Westerns based on books. Dorothy Johnson's The Hanging Tree was made into a film (of the same title) with Gary Cooper...and let me see, I think she also wrote the story The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance and the novel A Man Called Horse. Those are just a few that I can think of, at the moment.
veer
20 years ago
Frieda I really don't think 'Western' books make much impact over here. I know the library has a small section devoted to Zane Gray type paperbacks but I have never seen anyone take one out. I always presumed they were the male equivalent of the Barbara Cartland romances some females enjoy.
I see almost no 'modern' movies (no cinema within easy stricking distance ie one where DH doesn't need to take the car as our town centres are full of deliquent kids after dark)) but do remember watching The Hanging Tree over 40 years ago in a tin hut (The Institute) at Uyeasound on the Isle of Unst, the most northerly of the Shetland Islands. A howling gale blowing outside and such a grainy old print I think it could be considered a true film noire.
sherwood38
20 years ago
I read that there is to be a remake of The Ten Commandments-a TV version which I assume they will be showing for Easter....now how could anyone other that Charlton Heston be credible as Moses!

Pat
woodnymph2_gw
20 years ago
georgia peach, yes, Geraldine Chaplin has continued to make films, some foreign, e.g. "Talk to Her", directed by Aldomovar, (in Spanish,) in which she plays an aging ballet teacher. BTW, a marvelous film!

Frieda, I so agree with all you wrote re the stars of "Dr. Zhivago." (I'll never forget that pulsating, throbbing vein, either!) Of course, I have seen this film so many times, I know parts of the script by heart and can quote some bits....
carolyn_ky
20 years ago
Pat, I saw previews of the new Ten Commandments yesterday and thought the same thing. That's not Moses!
cindydavid4
20 years ago
I read Shane after watching the movie. Cried both times.

Loved Geraldine in anything I've seen her in. She does her papa proud.

Over the years I've been amazed by how many early movies (40s and before) were from books or short stories. I've gone back and read some, and actually have been surprised by some of the older adaptations.

No, there cannot be another Heston in that role. Why do film makers feel the need to remake classics? I heard they want to re do Casablanca. Why? Bogarts role can't be reproduced. The remake of the Grinch was beyond horrible.

Tho there is a voice whispering in the back of my head, reminding me of all of the productions I have seen of Shakespeare and Moliere, and how much I have enjoyed several of them

Oh, veer and other Brits - have you been to the new Globe theatre? Its so cool, not only seeing a play there but checking out the interactive exhibits. One lets you listen to famous British actors recite famous Bard passages. Comparing them is loads of fun, and you realize how one actor can make the same passage sound completely different.
friedag
20 years ago
I always presumed they were the male equivalent of the Barbara Cartland romances some females enjoy.I suppose some westerns are of that type, but not all, by any means. Upthread a couple of posters mentioned Robert Duvall as Gus McCrae in the adaptation of Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove -- that novel won the Pulitzer. An earlier McMurtry novel, Horseman, Pass By, a modern western, was made into the film "Hud" with Paul Newman as the title character -- and my, my, Newman nailed the part! McMurtry has not only written novels with American West settings, he's adapted several of his own books for films, including The Last Picture Show, which of course is set in West Texas during the 1950s, though not a "western" if the genre is equated with cowboys, gunslingers, renegades, politically incorrect depictions of Native Americans, and saloon gals. And then there's the latest adaptation McMurtry co-wrote: Brokeback Mountain from Annie Proulx's short story. I have a major quibble about calling the guys in that film "cowboys" -- they ain't cowboys; they're sheepherders! Dummkopfs don't know the difference?

I'll mention below a few other well-known western films that are based on maybe not so well-known books of the western genre. I happen to have read all of them; but I realize that the western was out of vogue for many years, and generally treated condescendingly because, I think, Hollywood and pulp writers and undiscriminating readers have left the impression that you picked up on, Vee. Of course, I don't expect as many Britons as Americans to necessarily appreciate the "western" novel, but I have to tell you that I know at least a couple of Britons that are mad for John Ford films and Louis L'Amour novels. :-)

Anyway, here's my list:
"Little Big Man" from Thomas Berger's novel of the same title (I can't imagine anyone but Dustin Hoffman as Jack Crabb!)
"The Ox-Bow Incident" from Walter van Tilburg Clark's novel (excellent novel that probably got run into the ground because it was at one time required reading in many U.S. secondary schools.)
McCabe by Edmund Naughton inspired "McCabe and Mrs. Miller," and Warren Beatty surprised the heck out of me as McCabe and Julie Christie is perfect as Constance Miller.
True Grit by Charles Portis, if anything, in my opinion, is better and funnier than the film with John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn. Some reviewer at Amazon calls it sui generis and it is!
Portis also wrote The Dog of the South -- although I don't think that one has been filmed, and the humor is so darned quirky I'm not sure it would appeal to many who aren't steeped in a certain style of American-southern humor. It's not a western, anyway, but I mentioned it because I read it and True Grit about the same time and the two are practically fraternal twins in my mind.
"The Outlaw Josey Wales" is adapted from Forrest Carter's novel of the same title. Clint Eastwood...sometimes he just fit a part so well and this was one of...
veer
20 years ago
Wow! Thank you Frieda. It seems there is a whole genre of novel out there that I am totally unfamilier with.
Actually I remember reading one 'Western', memorable in its unbelievable storyline.
You know the sort of thing . . .our anti-hero finds himself leading a party of small Mexican children, a pure white maiden, 3 nuns and a pregnant woman out of 'Indian Territory'. By chapter three he has been peppered with festering arrows wounds, has a broken arm, delivered healthy twins, and killed a tribe of Sioux. All this while falling in and out of consciousness as his only 'succour' has been swigs of fire water until he kills a goat which the nuns skin and cook.
By the last page they have reached the fly-blown fort, the cavalry ride out to kill the remaining Indians and our anti-hero makes passionate, sweaty love to the still beautifully unsullied female. He rides away we know not where . . . Fade to technicolour sunset.
You may remember the movie.

So from all the above books (or any similar) can Frieda, or anybody, please recommend ONE that I should read?

BTW over here we call the people that tend/guard sheep shepherds. They used to lead solitary lives, I don't know if any of them were gay but, as the saying goes, 'some of the sheep looked worried'.
anyanka
20 years ago
Cindy, thanks for your question re the Globe - it has reminded me that I need to check out this summer's programme and book tickets rather urgently. My older teenage daughter found her love for Shakespeare at school, so we now try to go to the Globe at least once a year and have so far seen the Midsummer Night's Dream (superb), all female productions of the Taming Of The Shrew and Much Ado About Nothing (both hilariously uproariously funny) and Romeo And Juliet (middling to poor).

Apart from the fact that I have enjoyed the style of the Globe productions, they are also eminently affordable for a family of four. Well, I'm off to the Globe website now...
friedag
20 years ago
Vee, I don't know that you should read any western. They may not be your thing. But if you would like to give one a try, I would probably recommend McMurtry's Lonesome Dove first, because so many readers -- Americans and others -- have enjoyed both the novel and the miniseries based on it. You also might like Vanderhaeghe's The Englishman's Boy. If you want a feminine view, I think Nancy E. Turner's novel These is my Words: The Diary of Sarah Agnes Prine, 1891-1901, Arizona Territories is very appealing. Or if you prefer nonfiction, Letters from a Woman Homesteader by Elinore Pruitt Stewart can help give you the feel of what it was like for a woman in Wyoming during the late nineteenth century and early-twentieth century.

Maybe the word shepherd seems a bit "dainty" in the American West -- bringing to mind Biblical pastoralists or a solitary soul on foot with his woollies in relatively small but lushly green fields of northern Europe. Sheepherder is more commonly used in the American West for the guy on a horse herding his charges on open range (hundreds of square acres...or miles), unless the speaker is feeling poetic or something, and then it's shepherd. Or it could be that sheepherder is one of those holdovers from Middle English often embedded in American speech.
netla
20 years ago
I'm reviving this thread because I somehow managed to miss it when it was new.

I always think of George Baker as Inspector Wexford and Christopher Ravenscroft as his sidekick, Detective Inspector Burden, when I read the Wexford mysteries.

For me, Peter Ustinov was always Hercule Poirot, probably because he was the first Poirot I saw on the screen. But I must admit I have never seen David Suchet play the role.

For me, the ultimate Scarlet Pimpernel will always be Anthony Andrews. He made me fall in love with the character.

John Malkovich as the Vicomte du Valmont. I may change my mind after seeing Valmont, but somehow I doubt Colin Firth can match him in that role.

Maggie Smith as Miss Brodie. I saw the movie first, and kept seeing and hearing Smith while I was reading the book.

And one miscasting:
I never went to see CorelliÂs Mandolin because Nicolas Cage was so far away from my mental image of Cpt. Corelli that I couldnÂt imagine enjoying the movie.
woodnymph2_gw
20 years ago
Wanted to comment on various portrayals of the First Queen Elizabeth, now that I've seen Bette Davis in that role (1939 version "Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex"). IMO, Davis trumps all other portrayals as the temperamental, mercurial Queen. And she has the perfect "laid-jolie" demeanor of the aging monarch, in my view. Frieda, are you out there? What say you?

I really hated to see this thread drop off into oblivion....
veer
20 years ago
Mary, I wonder how many films there have been about Queen Elizabeth? Do you remember one made in the early'70's with Vanessa Regrave as Mary Queen of Scots and Glenda Jackson as Elizabeth? Great scenery and locations but inaccurate historical content.
Glenda Jackson also played the title role in Elizabeth R in the BBC TV series made in about '72. Did that come to the US? Excellent script and very well acted.
georgia_peach
20 years ago
Hmmm... now that you mention the Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex, I'm wondering if I had The Virgin Queen and that movie confused. I remember seeing both of these, but it has been years, and I remember Bette Davis being remarkable as QE, but the two movies are blurred in my mind. It gets confusing when an actress has played a character more than once.
sherwood38
20 years ago
I haven't seen the Bette Davis version of Elizabeth so cannot compare it to others.
I own the Glenda Jackson 6-part BBC version and it is very good.
I also own the DVD of the Cate Blanchett version and went actually to a theatre 50 miles away to see it when it first came out. A friend and I went for the day-they showed the Elizabeth movie early, we went to lunch and came back the same day to see Shakespeare in Love, that has been quite a few years ago now, but I still enjoy both movies....IMO I don't think any one actress owns the part.

Vee wasn't there another more recent Elizabeth on BBC? I remember seeing something lately and thinking the actress was not suited to the part.

Pat
brendainva
20 years ago
Surely Mandy Patinkin embodies Inigo Montoya.

Brenda
cindydavid4
20 years ago
Oh my goodness yes! Loved that movie, and when I read the story, his face and voice join the text.
friedag
20 years ago
Mary, it's been too long since I've watched "Elizabeth and Essex" with Bette Davis and Errol Flynn. Thanks for reminding me of it! I will try to see it soon, and I'll let you know how I think Bette measures up. I like the way you describe Elizabeth and Davis's portrayal of her:Davis trumps all other portrayals as the temperamental, mercurial Queen. And she has the perfect "laid-jolie" demeanor of the aging monarch, in my view.

I adore Mandy Patinkin (especially as Avigdor in "Yentl" and as Alfred de Musset in "Impromptu" and as the Roy Cohn-type character in "The House on Carroll Street"), but I have to admit not knowing the character of Inigo Montoya. I looked him up at IMDb to find that he's in "The Princess Bride," which I've never seen, or read. But I recalled that my sons loved the film and asked one of them if they still have it. "Sure we do!" was the enthusiastic reply, and then I was given a recitation of favorite lines...particularly "Inconceivable!" that I've heard both boys use over and over but I never knew from where they picked it up. I may have to watch it, but I'm not really sure it's my sort of film -- I've never been big on fantasy.
cindydavid4
20 years ago
Your sons know of what they speak! Its a fabulous movie, and a wonderful adaptation of the book. Its 'fantasy' in the way that all fairy tales are. Its filled with love, true love, kidnapping, attempted murder, swashbuckling and some delightful lines ('inconceivable' is usally followed by 'you know, you keep saying that word, and I don't think it means what you think it does...)This is a must see, a msut read. They you will know who Indigo Montoya.
rosefolly
20 years ago
Excellent movie, excellent book. And it includes the finest sword fighting scene of any movie ever filmed, in my not so humble opinion. You don't need to be big on fantasy to enjoy The Princess Bride.

Rosefolly
veer
20 years ago
Pat, there was a ITV series about QE1 shown, I think last Autumn, but it was very unmemorable and had some 'soap actress' playing QE ( I didn't watch it)
Also another 2-parter with Helen Mirren and Jeremy Irons.
Did anyone remember that in the film Orlando the elderly Q E was played by Quentin Crisp?!
Let us not forget Miranda Richardson's very silly/funny QE in the Blackadder series.

Can someone please tell me why 'mini-series' are so called? We don't have that term over here (except as a US import)?
netla
20 years ago
I completely agree, Mandy Patinkin is Inigo Montoya. I kept seeing him when I read the book.

The Princess Bride is a parody and even people who profess to hate fantasy usually end up loving it. It's also one of those movies that are better than the book.
cindydavid4
20 years ago
>why 'mini-series' are so called? We don't have that term over here (except as a US import)?
They are not a season long program, its only 4 or 6 episodes. And I know you have them (if not the term) - I seem to remember several British series on our public tv station (Poldark is the only one that springs to mind, but I vaguely remember others). Unless these were Brit made for American consuption?
MusicMom
Original Author
20 years ago
Before I had even heard of The Princess Bride, I was actually advised, in all seriousness, that, "If you read the book, make sure you just get the 'good parts' version..." Goldman did a great job hoodwinking a few readers.

And yes, Mandy Patinkin is definitely Montoya (and will make a great Dread Pirate Roberts). For me, Andre the Giant also defined Fezzik. I have quotes like, "Four horses... there are four of us... if we find the Lady..." running through my brain in his voice even as I type.
veer
20 years ago
Thanks cindy re the mini-series. It was just the mini thing that confused me. Over here we never have series that run for a 'season'. The 'classic' stuff, such as 'P and P', 'Bleak House', 'The Forsyte Saga' or as you say 'Poldark' etc are usually 6 episodes of an hour each (it varies). These days the UK TV stations have the US market very firmly in mind with their 'big budget' productions often made with a US company (ie the US put up part of the money . .. the BBC make the show) and I understand that the episodes are made so 'advert breaks' can be inserted (BBC has NO adverts).
The BBC used to do far more 'one-off' plays although 'dumbing-down' seems to have seen the back of many of them. You will probably have seen many of them as Masterpiece Theater works.
I remember being rather confused with the 'Circle Theater' thing, firstly because it wasn't what I understood by the term 'theatre'. . .over here it always means a place where plays are shown . . . and secondly because many people talked about films/movies when I had seen them as TV productions, not at the cinema.
With time all became clear :-)
brendainva
20 years ago
Patinkin spent months and months studying under a fencing master before filming THE PRINCESS BRIDE. Give me a Method actor who really gets into his roles!

Brenda
sgeandhu
20 years ago
Leo McKern IS Horace Rumpole! :-)
reader_in_transit
20 years ago
I can't imagine any other actor as Renton in Trainspotting, but Ewan McGregor. The author of the book has written a sequel to the book, and director Danny Boyle says he wants to do a movie of it. Ewan McGregor has said he will not be in it... It will be interesting to see who will take the role.

When I read that Nicholas Cage was going to be Captain Corelli I couldn't believe how could they make such a miscasting. But, I have never been able to think of some actor that would the Captain Corelli that the book portraits.
sherwood38
20 years ago
I finally watched the Helen Mirren version of Elizabeth I yesterday (my DD had Tivo'd it for me) - it was really outstanding! The costumes alone were worth watching, the casting was superb, what great character actors the English theatre has!

This version concentrated more on the later years and Mirren was just beyond description-I certainly didn't find myself comparing her with previous actresses in the part-for those that have not seen it I highly recommend it! I just can't say enough about it-definitely 4 stars!

Pat
woodnymph2_gw
20 years ago
Pat, is this for rent in video stores, or was it from a TV program? I'd like to see it.

I still say no one can top Bette Davis....
sherwood38
20 years ago
Mary-it was on HBO which I don't get-as with everything else I am sure it will be available to rent-I will ck with Netflix to see if it is-or will be available soon.
BTW it was almost 4 hours long!

Pat
booklife
20 years ago
I found this site by accident, looking up the spelling of Andre Gromeko's name---what a pleasure!
My two cents are: Daniel Radcliffe as Harry Potter? Not if you 've read the books, I say. I don't think Daniel gets even close to the character that Rowling conceived. Nor does the child who plays Hermione. The Ron Weasley actor, though, I think is the best of the three.
Someone from England asked if we Americans notice the accent issues in movies. Remember Meryl Streep and Robert Redford in Out of Africa? Streep, as usual with her wonderful ear for accents, maintained her British personna throughout. Redford, on the other hand, started out with a semblance of an accent, but this deteriorated quickly until he just seemed to sort of give up, and just spoke pure American.
If you want to hear an amazing accent, watch Tommorow, a movie starring Robert Duvall. He takes on a backwoods accent and voice that are just astonishing.
I agree with those who say that watching the movie after reading the book can be disappointing. Now and then, there are some movie makers who captured the real nature and tone and voice of the book, and even if they have to cut a lot, it doesn't lose the feel of the book. One such, I think, was Prince of Tides. The movie left out probably 2/3s of the book, and Barbra Streisand, with her self-beloved long fingernails, wasn't the ideal psychiatrist. But nevertheless, the movie, i thought, captured the tone of the book very well.
I agree that Glenda JAckson was one of the best Queen Elizabehts, and that Maggie Smith absolutely is Miss Brodie.
Also that Richard Harris was a wonderful Professor Dumbledore, while Michael Gambon--who is a terrific actor; see The Singing Detective and The Butcher, the Thief, His Wife and her Lover--is just not the kindly, deep, thoughtful Dumbledore at all. Another case of one wondering What the Director Was Thinking.

Actors who define the literary characters they portray

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