Wow...that's pretty harsh in my opinion. What kind of work do you do? Do they have someone to cover for you?

I can't believe your company allots zero sick days. Are they for real? What type of company do you work for...and can you look for other employment. Seriously. Zero sick days is unrealistic and downright archaic. And to add insult to injury they wrote you up? I am gagging.
And the answer is "no", your absences are not excessive. You sound like a very conscientious worker and they should be happy to have you. Gheesh!

That is not excessive at all. Your boss sounds like a real jerk. If you have sign the "warning" make sure you put a rebuttal in and have him sign it.

SamKaren
your resident DJ

NO! I work for the federal government and before we got our second to the last manager people would call in constantly and use annual leave if they didn't have sick leave (and you get a ton of sick leave a year!) It was ridiculous. She finally put her foot down and started putting people on sick leave certification and denying annual leave not previously scheduled.

I feel bad for people who don't have a decent amount of sick leave per year, especially people with kids.

Do you belong to a union where you work, if so, have one of the members go in to witness the meeting. Also, you can sign but also put in writing next to your signature, that you do not agree with the reprimand. They can't make you sign, but if you don't, then they'll just file it with your record and it will look like you basically agree with what is written.

I agree, I would sign it but also put down exactly why you were not at work. It might even pay to have someone who knew you had a cold verify it with you with an add on letter.

I remember getting into trouble one year for exactly the same thing and getting hauled into the manager's office. Once I explained that colds and asthma don't go well together and that my colds aka coughs last for long periods and I was under doctor's care, she conceded that perhaps my being in an NICU during my illness wasn't the ideal. At least she was understanding but all she had to do was ask the nurses in charge whether it sounded like I had a cold and my getting into trouble could have been avoided.

BTW, I sent you an email you may want to check out for future reference.

What does your employee handbook say about absences? You have to follow what that says. If you've done that, or there isn't a written policy, you may be able to fight it.

Absurd. Absolutely absurd. I wouldn't sign the warning. I wouldn't use vacation time either. Not a chance. If they dare to fire you, you might be looking at a juicy unlawful termination suit. Don't be intimidated. Actually, I'd look for another job. Lincoln freed the slaves a long time ago.

I've worked at various places and never ever did any of them allow "sick days" off. This just the way it is. People do end up getting fired for not coming in to work. Its too bad but the the employer does not have a choice.

I so appreciate everyones input. I am really mad about this.
I will NOT sign the paper, and will be spending the weekend working up a letter to defend myself.
I do not belong to a union, and work for a small (under 100) privately owned company that sets their rules on a wing and a prayer.
The employee handbook (12 typed pages) says that any missed work shall be used on vacation time unless a manager allows you to make it up.
I am on a salary, but do not get paid for missed work days.
I really am very easy to get along with, work hard at work, but as we all know, from time to time life can get in the way and we must take off.
After working a job of 23 years, I took a good look back on my life, and decided that a good job is nice, but my health and family will always be first. I will defend my stance till I am carried out of my house in a pine box. This company does not follow that pattern of thinking. I took this job to pay the bills, and I really have no interest in a new career at my age of 51.
Gosh, I have already gone on too long, thanks for the vent.

Trin

I have always felt work places are not fair in letting people off for being sick or their kids are sick.

They tell you not to spread the bugs out there and yet work places demand you to be at work every single day.

I don't think anyone enjoys someone coming to work spreading their bug to them.

Having to work when they have high temperatures, throwing up, coughing their brains off and for some peeing when coughing all the time.

Boy, talk about unfair employment practices, they have 'em!
Your mention that "I am on a salary, but do not get paid for missed work days" says a LOT about the company, IMO.
Are you salaried so they can avoid paying Overtime?
Think I'd be asking some questions at the TX Dept of Labor or look up laws on TX Employment Commisssion's site.

BTW Trin, it's always easier to get a job when you have one. That many years at the same job should tell prospective employer to grab onto you.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Suzi

The place my friend works requires that if you miss work for more than one or maybe it's two days, you have to provide the company with a doctor's note. Is that your company's policy? I understand you may not want to spend the money but I'm guessing they would think that if you are sick enough to miss work 3 days in a row, it's probably serious enough to have your doctor look at you. Bottom line, I'm guessing if you are taking that many sick days off in a row, company policy says you need a doctor's note.

I know some people take advantage of companies by taking too many sick days, so this may just be their way of making sure that doesn't happen. Hope you feel better.

Well Trin I hope you are feeling better and getting over that cold and cough that is traveling the country like hot fire works. I do think you should get a doctor's note for the days you were absent. I certainly don't think you have abused the system by missing 5 days of work this year. Companies have to have guidelines in place for those few that need to abuse everything they can, you know them. I feel the doctor's note will eliminate the "warning letter", How about just going and having a chat with your HR person and explain your illness...I was always pretty easy to talk to. I know you will be able to resolve this in a positive way.
Jean

I'd sign the letter, adding your own comments (make sure your HR rep gets a copy) It may be that they are used to dealing with Losers who abuse sick days but that is no reason to abuse honest employees who have no history of excessive days off work.
A good HR person should be able to smooth this over for you after checking your employment history with the company. If they don't,I'd be looking for another job.

I didn't know a company could have a "no sick days" policy. People get sick, for heaven's sake! What do they do when an employee has the flu? That can keep someone home (and in bed) for a good week.

You've received some good advice above. Hope you're feeling better.

I ditto everything Carla said. Even tho I didn't agree w/company policy when I was a telecom supervisor, I had to enforce their rules.
Did you go see your Dr or call his office for meds? If so, or even if you didn't...best you phone him & tell him your predicament, ask him for a Dr's "excuse" and then turn it in w/the warning paper, making note that you are requesting the time off for extended illness, be deducted from your vacation.
My team was responsible to call in, each morning of their illness to report another day off. Perhaps you should have stated your 1st day of illness, that should you still aren't well enough to return to work after the obligatory 'warning' issue..to deduct it from your vacation-and to have them make note of it in your file, via your reported phone call. (a little CYA, if you would, ahead of time).
Sure hope you feel better soon..been where you are-NOT fun!
Oh...and if they still write you up? I'd find a better company to work for-one that provides a few sick days a year! Mickey Mouse organization, IMOP!!!

When I was a supervisor, my pet peeve was people who were obviously sick came into work anyway. I'd explain to them that's why we had sick leave. The last thing I wanted (having been through this at one other job) was the entire office getting sick.

Your boss sounds like a real jerk. If you can, I'd look for another job that has a sick leave policy.

Many people don't know that "sick days", unless covered by a contract, are not a legal right.
I have worked for companies that allow a certain number of paid sick days, and some that specify unlimited at manager's discretion.
I have seen union and government employees contracts allow a number of sick days as entitlements, and if not taken, are carried over from year to year like vacation days, and paid when employment ends.

Unfortunately, you took 3 days off on the backside of a weekend, with no doctor's visit, etc. Some employers see this as possibly taking a long weekend with being "sick, but not sick enough to see a doctor" as an excuse.

I agree with Sharon's advice above.

A lot of companies don't have 'sick' days, I don't offer them nor has any company for whom I have worked offered them. Many times it is due to abuse, if an employee is offered 5 sick days per year all of a suddent they consider this an entitlement, a way to increase their vacation time.

So I have no sick days, if you are ill you take the time off without pay, tho if you have vacation time I will use that on request. Most places around here do the same thing, and if you are out 3 days or longer you produce a dr's note or it goes in your file. I don't do that, we are small business, 4 employees. But that makes absence even harder.

I am responding to your post because I am so tired of those "in charge" pretending they have been given a badge and a gun and they are the big guy in town - not even considering other people's lives and livlihood, especially in these so uncertain times. I am out of a job now because of a similar process, but for totally different reasons. Mind you, there was no cause; the person in charge really wanted to clear out the old and bring in her own hand-picked staff.

Anyway, enough about my situation, and back to yours. DO NOT sign acceptance at all!! If the form says acknowledgement, you may sign with a conditions, and state them clearly, without emotion. However, I still think you should not sign it. Prepare an explanation of the circumstances with as little details as possible - just say that you were too ill to come into work. If you are not habitually out sick, or otherwise, include that. If you called in, mention that. Mention that you are planning on using leave. Most importantly, mention that you are not signing the form because you cannot accept the information contained therein. Mention that you are willing to discuss the matter and DO include the HR Manager in your discussions. Unfortunately, HR Departments do not exist for the employees - only to be sure that "human capital" situations are handled properly (and often, that does not help!). However, you want to have something on record in case the situation evolves or escalates. You should not be compelled to sign something that you do not agree with, or that is so grossly mistated that you cannot accept it. If you are suspended, terminated for this, you have rights. It can be difficult to take legal action in such situations, and I don't really recommend it because you don't want to be tainted to future potential employers. However, it you have to take the legal path, only do it for severence - about 6 most, rather than going after them company for wrong-doing. Again, though, hopefully it doesn't get to this, and if so, just be cautious. Most importantly, document, document, document!!

One other thing - some companies do have the 3-day policy. This means that you have broken the law, so to speak. However, in this day and age, unless you are in a critial position or the only one that can do the work, normally management would be willing to overlook this "wrong-doing" after some discussion. Why your manager is unwilling to do this - not sure. You may want to talk with him / her again, or talk with your HR Dept. before submitting your response. But DO RESPOND. You don't want what he/she says to be on top. Make sure your response is the last thing in your personnel file.

My best wishes to you. I know that the situation can almost be intolerable - not being able to trust your leadership. However, hang in there, and be as professional as possible. BUT, stand for your rights.

Most every place I've worked required a doctor's clearance to return to work after missing 3 consecutive days due to illness.

No way should sick days be subtracted from vacation time. Ever. Unpaid, maybe. Cancel my trip to Hawaii because I had to have my gall bladder out? I don't think so.

I disagree - many employers are going with PTO - Paid Time Off. Sick, personal, vacation - you use it whenver. Had to have my gall bladder out - lost 5 days - and if you're low on PTO - you do end up losing vacation.

But - that said, 2 wks a year is ridiculous - for all your PTO. What does your local labor department say?

I was glad to see that you see things in the same light as I do. I will spend tomorrow carefully outlining my response, without emotion as gneegirl recommended.
I retired from a company after 22 years, and have only worked for this company for 2 years. They have no company policy regarding doctors notes, but in my letter of scorn, they have asked now that our 4 member group will be asked to provide this from now on. Do they not need to make it a company policy, or is it just ok to mandate something on the fly for 4 out of 100 employees. Seems wrong to me.
I can only say, there are absolutely no policies regarding sick leave taken other than what I mentioned above.
Also our HR department is one fellow who is probably the most patient person I ever met, but was hired as our payroll account payable peron. He landed the HR part of his job, because no one else would mess with it. He is now also our IT go to, as nobody else will do that either.
In short we have no defined HR department in the company.
I just feel lost, blindsided, and like all I have done is for not.
You all have given me the strength I needed to stand up for myself,and to know that my worries are not out of line... I can't thank you enough for that.
Trin

I read your postings and agree that you are being handled harshly. However, I do detect a potential negative. Did you call in during the first hour of the first day that you missed and explain that you were sicker'n than a dog? If you did not call in, it could have put your supervisor in a lurch and left him/her wondering about you, and then later, your supervisor could have gotten very angry.

However, if you did call in, then I think that the organization is too harsh, and is probably looking for cause to fire without repercusions. If your supervisor was unduly harsh, then its time to enter a complaint about him/her to the Human Resource Dept.

Yes, I always notify my supervisor when I will be out. I did so every day before 6 am. I must leave a phone message, as I am the first one there to open up the office and make coffee between 6:30 and 7 am. I am not the boss or the head of our group, just always the early bird. All of us have a key, and the rest of the gang comes in between 7-9 am, depending on the day. I also always check in during the day, and make it clear to call me on my cell phone if needed.
In my defense, I also want to say that, yes, I was sick following a weekend, but I was also coughing up my toenails the proceeding Thursday and Friday while at work.
A hero I am not, and I was worn to a frazzle by Monday. Had I taken the earlier days sick, I may have been able to get well quicker, but, again, by taking those days preceeding a weekend, I may have been looked at harshly as well. Lose, lose situation however it is looked at.

You all are the best, and I am so glad for your 2 cents on this. It is making me crazy, as I have never ever been reprimanded by an employer in my entire career. It hurts.

Trin

Trin,
I see that you did find some sympathetic comments here but from someone in Human Resources I have a different take on it all.
- Many companies now have a Paid Time Off policy and you use the days you have for sick, vacation, kids sick, whatever. It's not unusual, it's not harsh, it's just the way it is. Too many people abused sick time and took all that was available. Separate time off for short illnesses is a thing of the past and companies that have it now will change to PTO within a couple years.
- I agree that 2 weeks isn't a lot of time, but again it's pretty standard until you've had a job for 3-5 years. When you took the job you knew that's what it was.
- Every where I've ever worked (I'm 55 and been working since i was 16) has required a doctor's note if an absence lasted 3 days or more. With the Minute Clinics and other quickie places now available you can get a visit for around $15.
- No one has fired you. All they did was write you up - essentially a warning. If for 2 years you didn't know what the policy was, now you do. You've been officially told. That's it. End of story unless you do it again. Don't overreact and make it something they want to fire you over. All that happened is a slap on the wrist.
- A company is not being harsh when it follows it's own policy. Unless you have access to everyone else's personnel files you don't know if anyone else was written up for excessive absences. You shouldn't know as that should all be confidential. The first thing we always hear is "You didn't do this to everyone else!" but I can assure you when the files are opened, we did treat everyone the same.
- Please listen to this because it's important: If you continue to fight this battle, on apparently no solid ground, the only person you are going to hurt is yourself. From an HR standpoint, your argument as you present it is unreasonable. Sorry, but it's true. You have no basis for anger. I would suggest you talk to your HR rep to try to smooth it over but you've already said he's not very effective.
- If you think you have a problem with your boss, go to him and say you are sorry this recent incident caused problems. As him to go over the rules with you again because you want to understand the policy and support your department's needs. Even if that isn't true, it will go a long way to getting his support the next time you need time off.

solstice98- you keep mentioning policy in your advice to me.
There is no policy in place regarding my situation. Zero.

I do appreciate your help on this, and take everything you say to heart, don't get me wrong,I have worked where policy was written and followed and it much easier than a wing and a prayer type operation.
What do you suggest in the event of a no policy written company?

Trin

Check with your state department (whatever dept it is) as to what legal requirments all must follow when they hire a certain number of employees. I realize that you might not have much recourse, but the only thing I can think of is get a small group of employees together with the OWNERS of the business to clarify the rules and regulations and to suggest changes so the MANAGERS and employees know what rules and guidelines to follow. Otherwise, document at home whenever anyone is out, did they get in trouble, did they have to use vacation time--even the managers.

Trin, were you given a 'handbook' of policies when hired?

Solstice, I'd have to argue the fact that you treat everyone the same. That's management talking. I know for a fact people are NOT treated the same. It just depends how 'close' you are in with management as to what get overlooked or excused.
Leslie

Trin, I think solstice is trying to give you some good advice. That being said, next time you are so down and out with a cold, I think you should go to work and cough and sneeze in your boss's face. I think she might just send you home and hopefully rethink the sick day policies.

Trin, believe me you can lose your job and they don't have to have a reason but when you go to get unemployment the first thing they want to know is why you lost your job.Company handbook or policy doesn't mean anything anymore.Unless there is a union they can pretty much do whatever they want.Coming from someone who has been there.If you value your job don't say anything.Like the above poster said next time go in and cough and see how fast they can send you home.lol

Though I'm a s-a-h-m and haven't worked in a long time, I find it despicable that some employees have no rights concerning sick days. How is that possible in this day and age??? Sounds like Dickensian times.

She said that she was coughing and ill on Thurs. and Fri - didn't get sent home then, it appears.

ole joyful

I find it despicable that some employees have no rights concerning sick days

It's not that employees don't have rights concerning sick days. It's that there are not separate and additional days given for sick time. No one says you can't get sick or that you can't have time off if you are. They are saying that if you ARE sick, you can easily prove it with a doctor's note. If you need time off you can use vacation time or take the time without pay.

If you knew your employer was OK with 5 days a year as sick time, for example, you would use them. Maybe a few of those days you would call in sick because you really were, but some of them were used for sick children, "Mental Health" fun days, a last shopping day before the Holidays, whatever. With Paid Time Off (PTO) you get x number of days throughout the year to use as you see fit. Vacation, sick, anything. If that's all you get then you need to budget those days and keep a few for illness. I agree that 2 weeks is pretty low, but it's not unusual. Have you watched the news lately? Companies are struggling to stay open; paying employees when they aren't at work is an expensive item. In some companies close to failure, employees have chosen to give up all vacation time in order to keep their health insurance. It was one or the other.

Just for the record, your decision not to sign the warning has no effect one way or the other. All they'll do is put a post-it note on the paper in your file that says "Employee refused to sign". You were out. They told you not to do it again. They don't need your signature. Your refusal just makes them think you plan to do it again and then say "But I didn't know!".

I stand on my prior advice. Don't fight them, just talk to them. What are you gaining by this? If your relationship with them was good, then you are destroying it. If it was shaky, then you've confirmed for them that you are a problem. If it was bad, then you've taken them one step closer to termination.

Is there part of this story you haven't shared yet? You don't have to tell us any of this but you should consider that it may have had an impact on how this was handled. Did you not call in the first day within 30 min of your start time? Did you call in every day that you were out? (Usually it's a requirement). Were you written up the prior week for something unrelated to attendance? Did you come back in on Thursday in almost perfect health so they questioned whether you really were sick those days? Are you habitually behind in your work? Do you treat your boss with disrespect or anger? Do you often talk about how great it was at the place you worked last? You said you've been there 2 years so by now you know the people and personalities you work with. I bet you can figure out exactly why this happened. I'm not saying this was your fault - your boss may be a total jerk - but in a confrontation with a supervisor, the employee almost always comes out the loser. Time spent 'managing' your manager is time well spent. Don't fight; talk.

I agree with communitcation aspect of what you have mentioned above soltice, but I truly work for the most disfunction company I have ever come in contact with. I get along well with everyone in my office, and this all has truly blindsided me. I have never been written up in my entire career. Most of the questions you are asking have been discussed in the above conversations.
There is one thing that I have not shared that I can think of. We are always given an opportunity to make up lost time if missed. I refuse to spend the night in the office to do this as the others do. It is an extremely isolated area, and not in a good part of town. I don't care if they are locked in, it is obvious from a long distance that someone is in the building, and a bullet can travel faster than I can run. I am not afraid to let it be known in the office that I think this practice is dangerous, and I will never be a part of it. I don't think it should be allowed, period. They are typically cranky, and unproductive following these escapades. I don't know why it is done other than job insecurity, or an opportunity to pound ones chest. Either way, it is a lose lose situation.
I may very well be looked down upon for this, but no one has ever made mention of it to me.
My work is caught up as much as I can manage in an 8 hour day. Any work not done, will be completed the next day. I will work late if needed, and have, but my job is a constant paper pushing situation, so no day is ever ended with all work completed.
I don't feel the need to defend myself here, other than to make it clear as to what I am dealing with.
I enjoy working, I don't have to work, but it allows me to be out of the house, and working with customers, which I really like.

Trin

solstice-- by your reasoning, someone in this position should never take any vacation or days off in case an illness presents itself later in the year. I don't know a lot about business but I'm not an idiot. Of course I know what's going on! It just seems to me that it would be better in many ways if employees were given at least several sick days a year to use for themselves and/or their kids while perhaps forgoing another expense (or top-tier perk) that isn't so necessary. Her company doesn't sound small. It does sound like you either own a company or manage one and I understand you are trying to make trinitytx see that her company has every legal right to do what they're doing, but that doesn't make it just.

What a shame this whole mess is. Because there is no policy in place, you don't want to push yourself out of a job. I am in no way saying this was right BUT there are probably 100 people that would take your job in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. But maybe you could use this as an opportunity to approach your boss and HR and state that if a policy was in place and clearly written this won't happen again. I do have a girlfriend that works for a company that has no sick time also. My husband works for a company that gives 3 sick days a year and he used that by April, 2 days for stomach bug we got that was brutal and another day for severe allergies. He is lucky enough now to get 4 weeks vacation so he used that. I happen to work at a place that you accumulate 10 sick days but you cannot have anymore than 6 occurrances a year, so 3 days off in a row are 1 occurrance. But anyways.. I do have to agree that you shouldn't push this issue, I work where there is a union (I work in HR) and when employee doesn't sign, manager just writes "refused to sign" but it's still going in your file regardless and if something else comes in down the road, believe me, the first thing they do is see what is sitting in your file. So I would sign it and attach your letter (written very carefully) that there is not a policy in place and you did not understand. That is going to look a heck of alot better, just consider this a bump in the road and don't get too hung up on it.. it will iron itself out. Be thankful you still have a job. Best of luck.

Trin, the way you describe the company you work for, and the people you work for...says a lot.
You look down on them. They're not good enough for you.

Perhaps this information has rubbed off on them, also.

You seem so offended by the first reprimand you have every been given....and by people you don't respect.

Solstice gave you great advice.

Seems like both you and your employer are unhappy...it's in your power to end this unhappiness.

I worked for a company once who would NOT pay you if your absence connected to a weekend (For instance missing a Mon, Tues, etc. or a Wed, Thurs, Fri.) If you did that, you needed a doctor to certify that you were ill ALL days you missed. You could NOT take vacation pay either. I hate to say it, but it cut WAAAYYYY down on absences. I'm not saying people weren't ill before, but after that they managed to get into work and infect the rest of us. They also had it written into the emplyee handbook. The chapter on absences was probably the longest chapter in the handbook.

Two weeks isn't much time if you aren't allowed any sick time. But the only thing you can do about that is to find a job with a better leave time policy. However, if you called in sick every day & have only missed five days this year I don't think it's fair for the company to write you up. You say there is no policy that you have to have a doctor's note. Then what exactly are they writing you up for?

I think it's sad that employers take the employees who help make their business a success & then treat them badly. Everyone needs some time off for sickness & similar things.

I'm glad you're standing up for yourself. Please let us know how things go.

Just a follow up.
I did write a response to my write up. I also signed the write up, which I originally intended NOT to do, but noted next to my signature that a response attachment was added.
(Just in case it got left out of my file)
I am really glad I posted this for all to see, as you all gave me wonderful responses, and although I may have not agreed with all, it made a huge difference in how I reacted, after all was said and done.
I do tend to get hurt at first, then survivor mode kicks in, then reality hits.
Honestly without your input, I probably would have handled it much differently.
I have no idea how my response was recieved, but the fact that I was very happy with my demeanor in responding was
good. I really all that to the KT.
You guys ground me well when I need it, and help me see all sides of the coin I may not have considered.
If I stay where I am at work wise, who knows.
My biggest lesson learned on this was, do not take everything as a personal reaction, and do spend several days managing my feelings to sort all options out.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out everone.

Trin

It is amazing that the people here can put any problem/idea into different perspectives and that we offer out ideas freely and others do or do not accept and still remain friends.