I forgot to mention that the prep area in the U layout will be a 36"x20" kitchen cart on wheels vs. the island being the prep area for the island layout.

I'm not a KD but had a thought.

Instead of making it a U-shaped or use an island, could you make it into two L-shaped counters. This way it you wouldn't have the problems with the DW that you had with the other 2.

aloha2009,

Thanks for your suggestion! We've considered it. However, it looks so empty in the middle. We want more cabinets and/or counter top space for storage and eating area.

Hmm, maybe put a kitchen island/cart on wheels in the middle? That way, when the DW is open, we can move the cart further away or in different position. What do you think?

Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough, because from what I'm imagining you would have the same amount of countertops and cabinets as you have in either of your options.

Personally I don't think it would look empty at all. You would have elbow room but not so much you need roller skates to get from side-to-side.

Are you planning on all/most drawers. I realize having more corner cabinets would create issues but whereever you can fit them in, it will create a lot of valuable kitchen real estate.

aloha2009,

I added another layout in the album. I hope it is what you're imagining; please take a look and let me know. Lazy susans make corner cabinets not an issue at all. I am planning for most bottom cabinets to be drawers except for corners with lazy susans.

Kaytea, that was what I was thinking but you mentioned you thought that wouldn't be enough cabinets.

Are you getting a CD frig. I'm not sure what kind of frig you are planning but you may have trouble opening it up on the pantry side.

It looks like your pantry is reasonable size, have you taken stock of how much space your really need? Once I actually did this for myself, I realized I had plenty of storage and not to always be trying to gain space.

Where does the doorway next to the range go to? You would want to minimize having traffic flow across the work triangle. Perhaps it's not much of an issue.

Also if you can post your pics directly to this thread it is much easier for myself and others to view and critique. Just copy the html address of the pic directly into the message. It will look something like off but will look fine when you preview.

Aloha2009,
At first, I thought you meant to get rid of one side of the U completely to become an L and not shifting it to the other side of the wall. The 3rd layout came about after your clarification =), which has the same cabinets/counter space. Thanks!

The fridge is CD. It is flushed evenly with the pantry's wall, so we're OK. We actually have nothing right now, it is a brand new start for us as a newlyweds. Being snack junkies, the pantry would be filled up completely with food rather than pots and pans, lol. So we do need pots and pans space in addition to the pantry.

The right side of the layout is the formal dining room. The left side is meant to be a breakfast nook, but it'll probably be empty if there are counter chairs. I see the issues of traffic flow through my work triangle. However, the dining room has another path to get to; it is from the living room so it's not much of an issue to me.

Got it. Sorry for the inconveniences.

Congrats!!! This is an exciting time for you.

I'm surprised the real kitchen gurus haven't chimed in by now. I know they will be able to provide soooo much! Until then...

Are you getting a CD french door frig. I caution you because with this layout, I would think that would be inconvenient. Your staging area is only to one side where a french door/side by side, it's better to have the staging area across from the frig and not to the side. I've had it to the side in the past (twice) and I've hated it! It's a lot of grab something, shut the door paritally, grab something, shut the door partially.

The range area doesn't have much area especially on the right side. It's hard to check measurements since each square = 10". Can you adjust that? I'm pretty good with math but it does make it difficult, especially being so many things are counted by feet. Are you getting a 30" or 36" range?

I like your idea of putting an eating area on the other side of the pennisula. I think you'll love it!

Have you figured out how to paste your pics directly? It's easy once you know how. Even though you gave the link, it would be great if you could still add it to this thread. I find myself going back and forth as I think trying to remember specifics of your layout.

Aloha2009,
Thanks. Unfortunately, it is a CD french door frig. Thanks for bringing this up as i have not thought about that. But wait, I think I have a solution, a kitchen cart on wheels! What do you think?

On either side of the 30' range is 12'. I agree that there isn't much space to the right of the range for a right-handed person like me, but with a kitchen cart it'll help.

Here are the layouts:

Range side view:

Trying to do layout #1 with the island will be extremely tight. Your width is about 11'10". Subtract from that 2'1" for counters on each side of the kitchen (you call your counters 2' deep but you must add into that counter overhang of about 3/4" - 1 1/2") which leaves you with 7'8".
You will need about between 42'-48' of aisle space on each side of the island. I think you left yourself about 3' but you have appliance opening into each aisle - the DW in one of the them and the fridge into the other and so you need more space. You now have (I'll use 3 1/2'of for the aisle width) an 8" wide island. If you were to have a movable cart you would be moving it constantly back and forth during clean-up and prep times.
MMMMM. Not all kitchens have the space for an island.

The second layout - the problem that I see is the DW squished into the corner. You will need at least a 2" filler in the corner of the cabinets to allow for clearance when opening the DW door so that it doesn't hit the cabinets or hardware on the peninsula.

I like the basic format of #3 but have a couple of questions/comments. The aisle width between the end of the peninsula and the DW counter should be about 4'. I can't tell what the measurement is from your drawing.
Would you, instead of having the spice pull-out rack beside the range, put those spices elsewhere and put a lazy-susan into that corner. There isn't much storage and leaving an empty corner seems a little wasteful. I know that not all people like corner cabinets.

If you are thinking of not using the eating area space for an eating area, could you expand the kitchen into that area and make the kitchen a little bigger? How much space is in there?

blfenton,

Thanks for your feedback. In the drawing, aisle width will be 42" . Is that enough space?

Regarding the corner to the left of the range, there will be a half round lazy susan with door on the right side of the sink :). It's the filler that I am more worried about. I mean the cabinets are supposed to be custom built, yet there's filler in the proposal? Does it seem alarming to anyone?

I am not sure how to make the kitchen bigger utilizing that breakfast nook area. However, we do not have budget to extend exterior and interior walls. Here's a bigger drawing

What do you have planned for the eating area now or in the future and how long is it before hitting a wall at the bottom? I see the sliding glass doors at the top, are there windows along the side at all or any entrances/doorways along the bottom?

I started a post yesterday but I got interrupted (dealing with a bathroom flood, what a nightmare). A few points I was making have already been covered so forgive the repeats.

Island - It appears that you only have about 33" aisles, which is definitely tight. I'd advise against that plan.

U - The peninsula next to the DW limits what you can store in there since you can't access DW and drawers at the same time.

Double L's - This is my favorite of the 3. The peninsula offers counter space and storage but does not block access to appliances nor do any appliances interfere with access to peninsula cabs. What I can't tell from your photo is how wide the aisle between peninsula and sink/DW run counter is. I wouldn't go less than 42" so that (fingers crossed) someone can still squeeze past an open DW door. 45" to 48" would be better.

Have you considered moving the fridge to where the range is and the range to where the fridge is? If you had a 36" corner Susan at the peninsula, you'd have 24" of counter between 30" range and pantry. Plus you could have 35" of counter beyond the Susan (42" aisle) or 29" of counter beyond the Susan with a 48" aisle. That's a lot more prep room around your range than any of your plans offer. It would look like this:

Since I don't know how wide your fridge and fridge cab are, I gave a range of 5-8" for the cab between fridge and 36" corner Susan.

This solves the lack of prep area near your range and eliminated any issues with the fridge against the pantry wall. I can't tell from what you wrote above but if by "flush" you mean that the door face is flush with the pantry wall, you won't be able to fully open the fridge. The door will hit the pantry wall and stop short of its full swing.

But I see another issue. Your breakfast area is only 8' wide. It's going to be difficult to put a decent sized table in there with chairs around it and preserve a path to the sliding glass doors. NKBA specs for aisles wide enough to walk behind diners is 44" and aisles wide enough to squeeze behind diners is 36". Those two together is 80", leaving you 16" for a table. Even if you cheat down on the aisles a bit, you don't gain enough room to make this room function well.

But I see a possible solution: expand the kitchen into the nook (a larger breakfast bar, perhaps) and use the DR for daily meals. You wrote that you don't have the budget to move walls but do you have the budget to remove a wall or expand the DR entry? Here's what is possible, with a slightly larger DR entry:

I moved the sink to center under the left window so that you have more counter between sink and fridge. I expanded the DR doorway by 3". Between the 36" corner Susan (12" of cab front) and the 5" cab, the fridge door should have enough clearance to swing free without hitting the sink run counter.

I shifted the peninsula over and widened it to 40.5": 24" deep cabs, 1.5" standard counter overhang, 15" seating overhang. If you add decorative panels on the backside of the cabs under the overhang, the width will grow to 41.5" (panels are about 1" thick). The cab at the bottom end of the peninsula faces the seating - you'd access it under the seating overhang. You will need 2" cab spacers between the corner and cabs on either side so that you can open cab drawers and doors. The peninsula is long enough that you could add a prep sink, too.

You have room for a 18" or 24" deep hutch unit on the wall opposite the peninsula - use this for more storage or perhaps a beverage center for entertaining - and still have adequate aisle to pass behind diners to get to the sliding door.

If you can take out the DR wall and are interested in what possibilities that might offer, tell us the size of your DR.

Lisa a has made the suggestions that I was wondering would be available to you depending on future use of your space and any constraints that you might have. Do you see what she has done? She moved the peninsula right out of the kitchen and extended that counter. Gave you a deeper peninsula counter and an overhang for seating. Great for entertaining, laying out appies etc.
By putting in a buffet type piece of furniture in the eating area you gain storage and it could double as a buffet area for entertaining.

There are advantages and disadvantages for switching the fridge and range. The advantages have been pointed out. The disadvantages are carrying hot pasta water across a traffic path, carrying washed dripping vegetable across the floor, carrying a washed and stuffed turkey across the way, etc.
However by moving the sink over to be centered under one window gives you a bigger prep area between the sink and the current location of the stove. That might help to alleviate the lack of prep space. This decision will be a personal preference one. (I think)

blfenton,
No plan as of now for the left wall, maybe a wine cabinet? But nothing in the middle of the walkway that leads outside through the sliding doors if there are counter chairs. Any suggestions?

There are windows all along the left wall and a fireplace in the 13'x15' family room, which is directly below the breakfast nook area. There is a guest bathroom at the very bottom.

To the right of the family room is the living room, the living room is open to the dining room.

Would what lisa a suggested work for your space? Can you envision that as an idea and would it be comfortable? Any constraints or opinions that wouldn't work for you?

Guys,

I really appreciate all the comments you have provided. Thanks a lot!!

All of it sounds very good. But the #1 constraint I have is budget. Switching the range and frig. is a no-go due to re-piping the gas and water lines. Next is extending the peninsula into the breakfast area. Here's a problem. The kitchen ceiling is lower than the breakfast area, makes it a well defined kitchen area. See the very top left corner in the pic below:

So, when the peninsula is extended, then you look up, it does not align very well, things seem to not go together. Maybe we can extend the low kitchen ceiling out to align with the peninsula? That we can do ourselves actually. One more thing is that the sliding door is one that slides from right to left only. Would the extended peninsula be in the way of people trying to go to the backyard through that sliding door?

Regarding the frig, I can't imagine how its door will hit the pantry wall and stop opening. But here's the spec of the frig http://www.abesofmaine.com/item.do?item=FRIFGHC2342LF&id=FRIFGHC2342LF&l=FROOGLE I think it will open all the way.

I'd like a double bowl sink, so moving it under one window wouldn't work, correct?

Let's not opening up the wall to the dining room, haha. That's gonna cost a couple grands! However, the dimension is 10' (horizontally) by 11' (vertically)

Also, is 15" overhang necessary? I was actually planning for 8" only. The height of the bottom cabs is 34.5" w/o countertop, 36" with countertop Im assuming. Is 8" overhang enough since I am trying to avoid the extra cost of the corbels (seems expensive, ~$200 for one)?

My ceiling height is also different between my kitchen and eating area. I lined up the inside edge of my peninsula with the change in ceiling height. I never notice the change. I would not worry about that if the function/form works better for you.
The peninsula would come out from the fridge counter not from the sink/DW counter so I'm unsure as to how it would get in the way of the slider. maybe I'm missing something.
Re:centering the sink - It all depends on how much you value symmetry. Sinks can be put off center and if you line up the left side of the sink with the left side of the window that could work and provide you with more prep space between the sink and range.
Google or search here for pics of off center sinks - there was a thread not too long ago asking for pics of that same thing.
These are just suggestions but it really comes down to your personal tastes/preferences and the way in which you work in the kitchen. I agree that it's nice to have symmetry but for me as long as I could line something up with something else (whether it be up/down or side to side) that would often work for me.

Sorry, I didn't realize that moving appliances was not in your budget.

Your fridge is 26-7/8" deep with doors. Your wall is 28" deep. Add in the 1" required air clearance behind the fridge and your fridge front is pretty much flush with the wall. If it's right up against the wall, you won't be able to open the door. Open your current fridge and notice how it swings open. As it swings open, it requires a little bit more width that the fridge body takes up and that's where a wall flush with the fridge door and right next to the fridge door would cause issues. It might only require moving the fridge out enough to have the body flush with the wall or moving it over enough to have a bit of space between wall and fridge. You may get this required clearance from the cab box. It's just something to keep in mind because it would really stink if you got it all put together and found out you couldn't open the fridge far enough to access fridge drawers.

8" seating overhang is really not enough knee space. People would either need to sit bowlegged to get close to the counter - which would take up more side to side room - or would scoot their stools farther from the counter to have enough room for their legs. A shallow overhang isn't really gaining you anything. And since it sounds like you don't plan to put a table in the nook area, you've got the room. 15" is the recommended minimum. If you're tall - or family and friends are tall - you might even go as deep as 18".

Would legs to support the counter be cheaper than corbels? I haven't priced this stuff (don't have island seating, don't intend to have island seating) so can't help you with cost savings there. You could always start a thread asking about inexpensive ways to support a 15" seating overhang.

I also don't think it's an issue to have the seating portion of the peninsula extend beyond the dropped ceiling but since you can frame it yourselves, you can decide after the peninsula is in place.

Found a few pics at houzz.com that might help you realize that having the peninsula counter line up with the ceiling isn't necessary. These aren't quite your situation but you'll notice that in all of these, the seats and the seating overhang is outside of the defined kitchen area. And they work, IMO.

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by san francisco interior designer Walden Design Group - Cynthia Walden

[

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by dc metro kitchen and bath Cameo Kitchens, Inc.

[

[modern kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by los angeles architect Lewis / Schoeplein architects

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by dallas architect John Lively & Associates

[

[bathroom design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/bathroom-ideas-phbr0-bp~t_712) by st louis general contractor Michael Rechan

As for the perceived interference of the peninsula and the slider, you have 42" between end of peninsula and door. But if you feel you want more clearance, increase the aisle from 42" to 48". But you'd lose one seat at the counter (allow 24" width per person). Hmm, or maybe not, you could create a seat at the bottom end, just replace the 24" wide cab facing the seating overhang with a 9" cabinet facing the FR (or whatever that room is below the nook) and add a 15" overhang here and you can still seat 3. It may not be quite the same straight shot but extending the peninsula into the nook gives you the storage and counter space is seems you desire.

I remembered this kitchen from Plain and Fancy cabinets with a set-up similar to what you have but with the sink centered under one window, not centered under the window space.

I thought it might help you visualize what we are suggesting. It would give you more prep space between sink and range, plus it gives you more space between sink and open range door. With what looks to be only about 24" of counter frontage, an open oven door could be up against the legs of anyone at the sink. Since you currently have a cook top, you may not have taken into account the footprint of an open oven door.

It does move plumbing but very slightly so costs may not be that much.

Lisa,
I pulled out some chalks, drew everything on the floor, and played some game =P:

I darkened the lines to be more visible. It looks fine actually w/o the need to extend the dropped ceiling. I tried to walk around to see how comfortable I am with the aisles, so far so good! yay!

Regarding the off-center sink, I think I want symmetry. The window is only 46" wide. Next to the sink will be a 49 1/2 inch wide cabinet with a 1/2 round lazy susan. When the oven is open, its depth is 46 1/2 inches. That leaves more than 1 foot from the center of the kitchen sink. We should be safe there, right?

Above the peninsula with the current dropped ceiling, if I want hanging pendant lights, where would you suggest to install them, dropped ceiling or outside? or use canned lights instead of pendants?

Oooh, I like how you mimicked the angle of the drop ceiling. Very nice! I think it looks great.

As for your sink, if symmetry is your thing and you're okay with the range door clearance, then go for it. It's your kitchen, after all. ;-) I'd personally prefer more space but I'm a clutz and I'd probably fall over the open door. A mock up of the situation may help put your mind at ease. That said, it could also tell you otherwise but best to find out during the planning stage when you can changes for the better.

Hmmm, on the lights. Normally lights would be mounted over the center of the counter ... does that mean they'd be mounted at the edge of the drop ceiling? I can't tell from your pic. I'd have to look through houzz.com to see if I can find images for this situation because I'm not sure. A local lighting specialist may be able to answer this for you, too.

Oh, one of the images I posted above has something similar - they used cans lights in the beam over the center of the peninsula.

What a great idea to draw out the border of the peninsula. By doing that you can figure out how long and how wide you can go. I like that it is open to your family room. And I notice you've already demolished the kitchen. WOW. So exciting. Keep us posted as to your progress.
Re your pendant lights: Is the sunshine ceiling light that you currently have in your kitchen staying? I'm guessing that that is why you have the dropped ceiling.When putting in lighting you'll need room in the ceiling for the housing unit regardless of the type of light fixture you put in. If the sunshine ceiling light is staying I would probably be tempted to put in a couple of pendant lights over the peninsula to mix it up. The ceiling light is almost like one giant can light. If possible I would probably try to put them just inside the drop ceiling - not on the edge because you don't want to seen like you are forcing the issue.

About your overhang - $200 seems like a lot for corbels.Can you do legs instead? 8" is a little (ok a lot) short for leg room but again it depends on what people will do at that spot. If it's just to prop themselves to visit the cook it won;t be as much of a concern as it would be if it was a place for eating meals.

The center of the peninsula is like right at the edge, which does not look good. We'll see, when we're at that stage. For now, cabinets are a go!

Many thanks to all of you! I feel like giving everyone a hug haha. Cheers!

Kaytea, what did you find out about your frig door? Perhaps you can save the money for a CD frig and purchase a regular depth frig and you won't have the problem with the door swing. On one of our plans we were looking at placing our frig next to a wall but encountered the swinging problem.

Aloha2009,
We already bought the CD frig. and it has not been delivered yet. So I can't try how the doors swing. I think we'll just not push it too far in since there'll be a box for it and it'll cover any gap in the back.