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flying_c

Seeking layout help with smallish kitchen/DR/mudroom

flying_c
10 years ago

Yes, another desperate layout petitioner humbly seeking assistance. We have a 1949 cape in the Boston suburbs. The kitchen is about 11.5' square, with lots of openings to make it tricky.

About us:

We are currently a family of 3: me, DH, and toddler daughter. We may have another child in the next couple of years. We cook a lot. Meals from scratch most days of the week, lots of fresh produce, very few convenience foods. I also do canning and preserving (fermenting, drying etc.). We make sausage and pate occasionally. DH makes homebrew. We bake some, but use a bread machine for everyday bread. We rarely entertain, and when we do it's very informal.

Onto the diagrams, thus:

kitchen and DR (kitchen on the right)

first floor, roughly to scale, 1sq=1ft)

Wants:

-As much counter and cabinet space as possible (is there anyone who doesn't want this?).

-Kitchen open to DR, but with some sense of separation rather than one big room (peninsula??). I love the current flow of the house, want to open it up without messing it up.

-Multiple cook kitchen. DH and I sometimes cook together, and we're getting DD involved now too, so a multiple cook kitchen as far as space will allow.

-Some sort of mini-mudroom area thingy. The back door in the kitchen is our primary entry/exit door. We need *someplace* to put coats, bags, and shoes in the kitchen, otherwise they'll end up in a heap on the floor. The door could conceivably be moved within the wall it's on, but can't be moved to a different wall/room. And, alas, adding on a separate mudroom is not an option, either.

Would likes:

-Separate cooktop (pref 36") and double ovens (hah, yes I know, stop laughing)

-At least one seated prep space (DH has occasional knee issues, but can sit at DR table if necessary)

-Beverage area to hold coffee maker, electric kettle, countertop fizzy water maker, tea pots, cups, and supplies

I've been fiddling for *coughmumble* months, and I keep coming back to something like this:

This plan has obvious problems: the plopped-down fridge, the crowded entry door, the nowhere-to-stand-to-unload-the-dishwasher. However, every other plan I came up with had worse obvious problems. Hence this posting! I would greatly appreciate any layout suggestions, fresh eyes, and possibilities I've (certainly) missed. Please let me know if more information is needed. Thanks for reading!

C

Comments (103)

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Yes. 11.5 feet equals 138 inches, which is the dimension given for the far right kitchen wall (not using 141", the dimension of the far left DR wall until we hear back from the OP).

    138
    - 24 (depth of top wall cabs)
    - 36 (cook top & cab)
    - 42 (aisle between peninsula and oven cab)
    - 25.5 (assuming oven cab depth same as counter depth)
    = 10.5"

    I subtracted 2" for cabinet spacers in the corner so that doors and drawers can be opened, which leaves no more than (and possibly less than) 8.5" to the right of the cook top. That's counter, not cabinet since I'm measuring counter to counter, not cab to cab. That means a 7" pull-out cab. Or a 6" pull out cab if they can't get custom sizes. Which means 7.5" with overhang between cook top and aisle. Not enough, IMO, for safety clearances. It's also less than the NKBA suggested minimum (12"). It also doesn't give the OP the space she wants around the cook top so that both she and her hubby can be cooking at the same time.

    As I wrote, nice idea if only we had access to a kitchen stretching tool. Without the expense and hassle of moving walls, of course. I've been looking for one for 2 years as I contemplate my kitchen remodel and I've yet to find one. Dang.

  • flying_c
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Sorry about the silence (travelling yesterday), and yay, more layouts to think about! Lisa, I've remeasured and will post a corrected plan later today. What I'm getting is definitely 138" square for the kitchen, and 138"x136" for the DR. I must have either mismeasured or mislabeled the original plan. Ceiling height is 91" (7'7").

    Got to take cat to the vet now, will be back later. I'm running out of ways to say thank you. You all are pretty amazing!

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  • judydel
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying C is that interior wall between the D.R. and Kitchen 4"? I'm trying to understand long that whole space is from exterior wall to exterior wall. If the D.R. is 136" and the kitchen is 136" and the interior wall is 4" then that would be 136
    138
    4
    ____
    278"

    Is this correct?

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Abundant- That's what I was thinking, too! A small office area in the kitchen would be much easier to incorporate than a big table :)

    If the dining room could go in the office, think of all the possibilities! Maybe open an up arch, between the living room and new dining room...incorporate the closet area for dish storage, office/printer/file storage...or make the bathroom a little larger. The dining room could be for dining, a game table, crafts, and maybe open up some views/access to the backyard.

    Now, I'm going to quit, until I know it's even a possibility, since I'm getting a bit carried away with this whole idea! LOL

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Welcome back, Flying C. Hope it's a routine visit to the vet and nothing more serious for your kitty.

    LL and abundant, you two sure are having fun creating ways for Flying C to spend her money. ;-) The downside of your idea is that a small office area could never be turned back into a bedroom - or serve as an office/guest bedroom - which could hurt resale value. And personally, I'd hate to carry hot food to and dirty dishes from a DR that is at the other end of an 8' long, 3' wide hallway with multiple doors opening into it. But this isn't my house so not my call.

    Judydel, Flying C just posted that the top wall of the kitchen is 138" and the DR is 136". I assume that the wall between them is 5" since that's the dimension she posted for the wall between kitchen and bathroom and I can't see why they would be different thicknesses. That puts the room's length at 279", which is only 2" more than I was estimating in my plans (I'm claiming skill not luck for that, lol). We'll find out for sure when Flying C posts her updated dimensions later.

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Lisa- It's fun to spend Flying C's money...as long as she doesn't mind :)

    An 8' hall is not long, especially if you incoporate a small eating area, in the kitchen. Maybe a few stools at the island or peninsula...or a small table/banquette, but not the big dining table needed for special occasions. Think how cool a tea cart would be, for rolling food and dishes, back and forth! LOL

    Yes, you would lose the bedroom space, but I'd rather have more living space so I guess it depends on the situation. If there are at least two bedrooms upstairs, it might be worth considering. I guess, we'll have to wait for Flying C to get back and ask her.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying C, I have a question about your table and DR size.

    You posted that you were willing to take 12" out of your DR. If you add in the 5" wall depth to the 12" you're willing to steal from the DR, that's a DR 17" smaller than you have now or 119" wide (which is a DR only 5" larger than my last plans to you show). That gives you only 35.5 around a 48" round table and chairs. Doable but not generous and does not take into account anything that protrudes into the space, such as drapes and radiators. You could still do a 48" round table and chairs in a room 5" narrow (my latest plans) - you'd have 33" around the table - but it's not ideal and it could look out of scale, a too big table in a smallish room. If you don't want to do a banquette but want to go with the latest plans, you could opt for a 42" round table with pedestal (or a 42" wide rectangular table) to give you more room for people to move past anyone seated at the table. Just another thing to ponder.

  • flying_c
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Hehe, yes, you all (and the forum as a whole) is very good at helping me spend my money ;)

    The island and peninsula layouts are pretty nifty. I never really considered an island. LL, the layout you did with no wall between the kitchen and the DR is something I've played with. It loses the separation between kitchen and DR that I was hoping for, but it works well in other ways - providing, of course, I could work around that pipe. The pipe is a plumbing air return I think. It goes the full height of the house and out the roof.

    Okay, questions you asked:

    -The wall between the kitchen and the DR is 6" wide. Total interior width of the space = 280" to DH and my best measurement (hard to keep the tape straight). The exterior width of the house is supposed to be 24' (288"), but I don't know how precise that is.

    -Radiators: They're both 30" high and shallow, sticking out about 2.5". I figured we might have to get rid of the kitchen radiator and switch to either a toekick heater or underfloor heating (if we can swing it). They don't get all that hot, I've never worried about the toddler touching them.

    -The downstairs office is in use and can't be converted. It also counts in the house's total of 3 BRs, and I wouldn't want to take it down to 2. We have no particular plans to sell, but probably won't live here for the rest of our lives, either.

    -Swapping the kitchen and DR is still on the table, but I don't think we'll make a decision until we find out how much it would cost. We do have a full basement, so moving plumbing is not as bad as it could be - but not cheap, either, I expect. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about kitchens in the front of the house - it's not something I ever thought about till I started reading this site. Of course, we have a bathroom visible from the front door, too...

    -Banquettes. I have to say I'm not wild about them. I think they're fine for short-term seating (e.g. grabbing breakfast), but not as the main table in the house.

    -Regarding measurements, I've measured the windows and doors including the trim, since I read somewhere that's the way it's supposed to be done. So our 40" back door is actually a 32" door with 4" of trim on either side.

    -The cat is okay :) He's got something going on with his eyes, but it doesn't appear to be serious. OTOH, we now have to give him eye drops twice a day, and let me tell you, no one is enjoying it.

    Did I miss any questions?

  • flying_c
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Oh, tables: what I'd really like is a 45" round table, but no one seems to make them! 42" is possible - need to talk to DH. We'd been planning a corner hutch in the DR, for the far corner away from the kitchen and LR. Having measured for a 48" table with the hutch, the clearances seemed okay - not generous, but workable. Willing to consider other table shapes/sizes at the moment, since we're still trying to decide what to get.

  • flying_c
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Kitchen

    Dining room

    Hope they're legible. I'm going to try stitching them together tomorrow to make a big plan like the first one I posted.

  • abundantblessings
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I totally understand and agree with keeping the 3rd bedroom downstairs. Space is a premium and you're wise to always keep resale in mind, even if it's many years out.

    While it's easy to spend other people's money, I've done more than a few renos and don't think the swap is inordinately costly, especially with easy access in the basement, but it has to make sense for the way you live. If you made the swap, I was not suggesting constructing a wall cardoning off a front office but rather having a designated space in front of and away from the kitchen hub. In general, I'm not a fan of offices in the kitchen as I prefer more private areas for bill paying and the like. It's a moot point since the bedroom/office must remain but as these posts have a life of their own and ideas may be pertinent to others, I wanted to expand on that concept a bit.

    I'm perfectly happy if you achieve what you want w/o the swap, but just wanted to toss out another slant. Helping you think through the possibilities of constructing what's best for you is all our goal, I think.

    Maybe you can find a vintage round table in your preferred size. If not, it's not hard for a carpenter to make a new top and leaves using the mechanism of a slightly smaller table.

    Do consider the outswing exit, either way. Not having to accommodate that door clearance will prove to be a big help.

  • judydel
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    In New England anyway, your door usually swings in so you can have a storm/screen on the outside that swings out.

    Flying C I can't believe how similar your space is to our kitchen/breakfast area before our remodel! It really isn't a lot of space, so it will be tricky getting everything on your list. I'm just being honest.

    The main "C" of our kitchen was 138" wide x 99" deep (when looking at the windows). After stealing a foot, your main "C" will be 150" x 92".

    As you can see we fit two corner cabinets with Lazy Susans, an 18" bank of drawers, a 24" sink base (with a 24" sink!), and a DW. On the left side of the "U" we had our 36" refrigerator and a 24" cabinet. On the right side of the "U" we had an 18" cabinet, our 30" range, and a 12" cabinet. We had a walk through area like you do on the open end of the "U". And just beyond that was a 6' x 3' walk in pantry. This is where we kept all of our food and large canning equipment, pet food, small appliances, serving pieces that didn't fit in the main kitchen, etc. Items that were not used often and/or were too large to fit comfortably were stored in the basement. We also had a 7' x 8' laundry/mudroom off of the kitchen leading to the side door.

    Our table area was 11'3" x 9'. After giving up a foot, your dining area will be 11.5' x just over 10'. We had a rectangular table that was 42" x 72". It was a tight squeeze, definitely did now have the recommended clearances. It felt like a nook more than a dining room. Yours will feel similar. I believe in a small space, a rectangular table fits better than a round table. Or am I wrong on this one?

    I'm wondering if you would consider making the bathroom a small 1/2 bath so that you can take some of that space for a mudroom? What are the dimensions of your bathroom? Would it be possible to use that space for a small 1/2 bath, laundry room, mudroom? I adore having my laundry room near our side door. I used to strip my muddy, dirty kids right on my side porch before letting them in the house and all their dirty clothes would go right in the wash. Having my laundry room near the kitchen also means I can keep an eye on the laundry while I'm spending time in the kitchen.

    Your family's lifestyle is similar to ours regarding home cooked meals and putting food up. I have to be honest. Our main "U" was very easy to cook in, however, I always longed for more cabinets, drawers, storage, etc. I don't know what I would have done without our pantry and mud room!

    Don't lose heart!!! I'm just being honest about my experience and showing you what we were able to fit since we had a similar dimension to work around. I spent many happy days and nights cooking, baking and putting food up with 3 little ones around me. I'm sure you'll come up with something fabulous that will work for you and your family also . . . especially with so many heads to help : )

    Sorry to have to subject you to my awful 80's wallpaper again, lol. I cringe each time I think about it!

  • judydel
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Consider placing your refrigerator at the end of the "U" next to the door to your yard. When you enter the kitchen from the yard, if your door swung in to the right instead of to the left it would lay flat against the side of the refrigerator. Then the wall opposite the "U" won't be infringed upon with the door opening against it.

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying- I went back and looked at your list (again) and I think this may be a good option. You wanted double ovens, but what if you combined them with the cooktop? You should be able to get one regular oven and one smaller one, with a 36" range...so if that's a compromise you're willing to make, here's another idea.

    The window over the sink is moved down and makes room for the fridge at the end. The window in front (with the radiator) stays 'as is' which now seems more centered to the room. Behind the range is a half wall, so that you can interact with the dining room, but there's still some separation.

    Instead of putting stools behind the range (never my favorite set up) the work table has room for a few stools. In a tight space, I prefer a work table (again, with a wood or maybe marble top) because you can have some flexibiity. If you want to use the stools for prep, you can scoot the table closer to the sink. If you need more work space between the sink and work table, you can scoot it closer to the stairwall. It's never going to feel cramped, as opposed to a fixed island.

    The dining room has more windows, opens to the backyard and lets in lots of light and views. As you enter through the back almost all the time, I'd rather walk in and have the table, with a narrow area for coats, behind the door. If you do have people cutting through the kitchen, to reach the living room, they're not walking through your work space, at all.

    Another idea, that little closet might make a nice pantry (as Lisa suggested) and could be opened up next to the coat area.

    So, here's the plan and I hope it gives you some good ideas. It is a challenge to get so much worked into a limited space, but because it is small, I think flow is very important. There should be plenty of room for the table to expand, since I doubt you'll be opening the door, while you're eating...at least not very often :)

    {{gwi:1935507}}

  • abundantblessings
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Judy, very helpful practical guidance as your situations are so similar. I bet her laundry is in the basement. Wonder if she'd take out the tub to install a small shower as it seems she has need of a full bath downstairs and having one is better for resale. Then she'd be able to include a stackable WD where the bath closet is and have a door to the kitchen on the top left wall.

    Yes, spent many years in snow land so know residential stormdoors are customary, but there are benefits to outswing that may override. FlyingC said they won't be using the kitchen door in heavy snow as her family will mostly use the basement garage. Perhaps her guests may do so or will use the front door.

    Outswings are better for emergency egress and thus required for exteriors in commercial settings, they're better for residential and commercial security as harder to kick in, and most fittingly in this case, will free up interior wall space. Just another slant, as it may not be a code issue but many never think to make the change.

  • judydel
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I lived with these dimensions for years and there is no way an island would fit and still have clearances for the ovens, refrigerator, DW, etc. And two people could never cook with the island in the middle. During the remodel we enlarged our "U" by 6 feet, then we were able to put in an island, but only a small one (24" x 54").

    Abundant, this kitchen has limited ventilation. I think it's important to have the option of placing a screen door outside of this kitchen door. Then Flying C can open the door and get some air, hear the kids outside playing, hear the birds, etc. I'd like to see a door in the kitchen that has a window to bring in additional light like the one we have for our side entrance. We found a storm door that also has a window so you can see out both glasses. And the storm door window opens by sliding down to reveal a screen. It's a Forever Door, we bought it at Home Depot, and it comes in different colors.

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Judy- I don't know if you're talking about my plan or Lisa's, but an island would be a tough fit. That's why I recommended a much smaller work table (maybe 60" x 30") so that it can be moved around a bit, as needed. My mom has a similar set up and it works very well for her...and still works well, when more than one person is cooking. It's easy, because we can slide the table over a bit and have plenty of room for two.

    Also, the range wall was moved over two feet, which would enable Flying to have upper cabinets (by the range) reach down to the countertop and hide that 6" pipe, maybe with spices in front. This makes for a smaller dining area, which is why I added the windows, to make it feel larger. It's just another idea :)

  • abundantblessings
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Love your doors, Judy, and your pooch! Great spot to keep tabs on comings and goings.

    Totally understand the benefits of storm doors, lites and screens. In our last house which was mid-Atlantic so got a few good snows while we were there though not like the midwest or northeast when we lived there, we had those hiding retractable screens on the outside of inswing french doors in three rooms across the main level. Those rooms were huge by my standards anyway, but still the inswing impinged a bit on furniture placement. Had I built that house, I might have considered sliders that mimicked french doors or installed outswings with the retractable on the inside as the bar it rolls into is unobtrusive. Another small advantage of the inside mount is it prevents pests from hiding as a couple of times I found a beetle had crawled into the exterior frame, rarely but still something I now know to consider.

    I was surprised how well they worked, but they aren't the best with dogs and children who might damage them. Fortunately, our four legged respected them. When we built a previous home in the SE, I specified outswing for the reasons noted and also air pressure from strong storms. In our garage we had a similar slide up screen built into the metal exterior door as you have with your storm door.

    I'm not trying to convince anyone to go one way or the other as this is purely subjective and not code required; just wanted to present options for consideration as there are various ways to approach most things, and most methods have pluses and minuses. I find it helpful to understand the parameters before deciding so shared my perspective in case others are interested.

    With the bath/laundry possibility off the kitchen, if FC chose to go that route and keep the inswing, then she may be able to put the entrance where the bath closet is.

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying- Quick question...how much coat storage/mudroom area do you need, in the kitchen? If your garage is downstairs, could the mudroom go down there? Is that where the laundry is? You might be able to incorporate a nice mudroom area, large pantry and laundry area all together, or near each other.

    Not only would you have more room for coats, bags, etc. but you would also have a lot of your food storage downstairs, rather than hauling the bags upstairs. It would make stocking the pantry much easier, you could just go downstairs to pick out the items you need for a particular meal.

    This would give you more space (behind the door) for cans and small items that would be eaiser to store in the kitchen, along with hooks for a few coats that you use in the backyard. If you use the small closet for additional pantry space, you'd have plenty of storage....immediate items upstairs and long term, less used items downstairs.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I redid the DR to allow for a 48" round table with chairs - no more banquette. It's snug but doable. NKBA guidelines range from 32" (no traffic behind chair) to 44 (path behind chair) with 36" as squeeze by traffic behind a chair. We have 40" between island (no seating) and table and it's fine for us so I went by that in my plans. I also added in what allowances would be for a 42" table with 2-18" leaves.

    The first 4 plans are variations on a theme. The perimeter for the first 2 are the same with one having an island, the other a peninsula. The last 2 also have the same perimeter, one with island, one with peninsula.

    The first two give a better sense of how the peninsula would line up with the back hall way entry. It's MOL a straight shot down the hall into the kitchen, which will make it seem more open, IMO. I forgot to tweak this on the last 2 variations. If any of these appeal to you, you'll want to draw them up on graph paper. I did the math, checking it multiple times, but honestly, I got rather dizzy by the time I was done so I'm sure there's a miscalculation or two, although none should be off more than an inch or so, if that.

    So, without further ado, here are the 4 variations on a theme.

    {{gwi:1935508}}

    {{gwi:1935509}}

    For the next two, the dining room is set up the same as it is in the above two but I was too lazy to draw it in. ;-)

    {{gwi:1935510}}

    {{gwi:1935511}}

    And then, I had a brain storm and came up with something completely different than these. It's an idea that has been rattling around in my brain but hadn't fully developed enough to put on paper until today. It gelled as I read an article in BHG's August issue while waiting for treatment at my PT's office this morning.

    {{gwi:1935512}}

    I reversed the door swing and moved in 12" into the room so that you can put 18" deep cabinets along the back wall without interfering with the door or aisle space. You'll need to swap out the radiator for under-cabinet vent heating (you mentioned this option above). And you need to give up a bit of your pantry to recess the wall ovens 6-8". You have to cross an aisle to the counter next to the cook top to put hot dishes down, which isn't ideal but that's how it is with compromises.

    I also gave you a small (24" x 32") rolling cart with stool for hubby to sit at. It's going to have to be without shelves below so that you can tuck the stool under when not in use. Maybe 3 solid sides with one open so it's stable but still allows a stool to fit underneath. This might have to be custom - unless you're lucky enough to find just the right thing on line somewhere.

    I tried to draw up a plan swapping kitchen and DR without luck. You'd only have room for a very shallow (12") type of coat closet and even then, you'd be limited to extending either a 42" or 48" round table to a max of 60". Fully extended the table would be 30" from the coat cupboard, which isn't even squeeze behind space. Without leaves, you'd have 46" clearance between coat closet and 48" round table and 52" clearance between coat closet and 42" round table. Since this is your main entrance into the house, it's not really where you want to be chintzy on aisle space, IMO.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Meant to respond to you, LL, about your suggestion to Flying C to opt for a double oven range. It's a great idea and it would be a space saver. Unfortunately, Flying C wants induction and there aren't any double oven induction ranges out there. Well, there is one by Electrolux but reviews are poor and the 2nd oven isn't really that useful according to reviews. Oh, she also wants a 36" cooking surface. Don't think any double oven ranges come that wide. At least none that I've seen. Not that I've looked around a lot.

    Anyone know if there is such a thing as a 36" wide double oven induction range? Or a 36" wide double oven propane range (Flying C doesn't have gas hook-up but might consider propane).

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Lisa- I LIKE this last plan! Great way to incorporate the double ovens :)

    I totally missed the induction...just saw the 36" cooktop, so I was thinking maybe something like the gas AGA Legacy. Here's a link, but I don't think they do induction...but neat stoves!

    Here is a link that might be useful: AGA Legacy

  • dianalo
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Lisa - I like the last layout but think the blind corner cab would work best if you made the blind part face the dining room.
    I'd still like narrower 27" ovens for her, because otherwise that makes a pinch point or do a shorter than 16" cab next to the cooktop. Alternatively, she could put one 30" oven under her cooktop with spice, oil, vinegar pullouts on each side of it (saw it recently here). Then the narrower one on the other wall can be down low with a hutch type upper on it. The bigger open area at eye level would feel more spacious and you could have a landing zone on the counter top above the oven. The recess in the pantry would be lessened.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Thanks, LL and Dianalo!

    Dianalo, I was thinking that the wall behind the cook top would have to be a 2x4 wall (like Fun2Learn showed in her photos above) and I thought it would look odd to have one lone cabinet door in that wall. However, if the wall is faced with cabinet panels or beadboard painted or stained to match the cabinets, then a lone cabinet would be MOL camouflaged. And, yes, it makes absolute sense to have that top left corner cabinet face the DR. Cheaper and easier access.

    The ovens could shrink to 27" or they could be recessed 6 more inches into the pantry closet - or both - to relieve that pinch point. Personally, I'd rather not see the cab to the left of the cook top shrink any smaller (it would be 17.5" with counter overhang) so that there's room to set down the large pots used for canning and home brewing.

    As for putting an oven below the induction, I think she'd be better off going with an induction range than going with separate pieces. Some induction cook tops require quite a bit of clearance below them, which would set a wall oven quite low in the cabinet - or maybe there wouldn't be room for one? If Flying C went with an induction range, then the lone wall oven could be 27" since it's a "spare" and it could be set in a cabinet with a counter above and possibly an upper cabinet so that the whole thing looked like a built-in unit. Having a counter above the oven would give one a handy place to set hot stuff down without having to cross an aisle. It just depends on how Flying C wants to use the pantry space. btw, my oven is across the aisle from my island (39" aisle) and it's not a problem, even at holidays. But my toddlers are now pushing 6' ;-) so it's less of a concern for me.

    The coat closet could also be used to hold pantry goods, which would help make up for losing some space in the pantry closet for the built-in oven.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying C, did you see baligirl's kitchen? She has a 36" induction cooktop over GE's 2-in-1 oven with spice pull-outs on either side. (dianalo, I'll bet this is the kitchen you were thinking of.) From what you've written, I think you might still like to have a full size oven, either a 27" or a 30", but that would be an auxiliary oven, not a primary one so much of your kitchen's function would be within the U of my latest design for you.

    Baligirl also has a 2-tiered island with posts between kitchen and her great room. You could borrow this idea - without the eating counter she has - for the wall between your kitchen and DR.

  • flying_c
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Ooh, Lisa, that last plan is very interesting. One thing about the blind corner: the laundry (which is, yes, in the basement) is just about under where that blind corner cab would be, so I wonder if it would be possible to put a laundry chute, accessed from the DR, and drawers on the kitchen facing side. Dunno what code is around here for laundry chutes.

    Though I can see some advantages, I don't really want to mess with the downstairs bathroom.

    The basement laundry is kind of a mess right now. It could potentially be turned into a decent mudroom area for wintertime, but it would take major decluttering of all my garden junk (plus the stroller is stored down there, which takes up space).

    I did see baligirl's kitchen and yes, that induction over single-double caught my eye. (Plus her kitchen is lovely.) I'm going to try and look at one the next time I get a chance. I looked on AJ Madison and found zero, zip 36" induction ranges.

    Judydel, thanks so much for posting all those pics of your old kitchen! It does really help to see similar spaces. And thanks for your honesty about how you felt about the space. It's tough. We've considered moving, but to get more we'd probably need to move further out, get a second car, longer commute for DH, etc. etc. Of course, if it turns out that the estimates for the kitchen put the total spend up near a larger house in this area...then we'll have tough decisions to make.

    And abundantblessings, you were asking about door swing. I don't think I've ever seen an outward swinging exterior door around here. It's a good idea in theory, but I think it would seem odd.

    This thread is a lot to take in, so I hope I've answered everything that's come up. And thanks once more to everyone!

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    That's an interesting idea, Flying. If it works for you, fingers crossed that it meets code. We tried to add a laundry chute when we built almost 18 years ago but code was so complicated, that we decided against it. Wish instead that we had made more tweaks with our floor plan so that the laundry room was on the 2nd floor instead of the 1st floor. Ah, hindsight. ;-)

    Let me know if you'd like me to redraw the last plan with a smaller oven or with either a 30" or 27" recessed 6 more inches. btw, if you do a cabinet back, not a drywall back in the closet, you won't lose the full depth of the cavity since some of the existing pantry closet wall will be used for the oven cab cavity.

    Oh, and I goofed on the wall height between DR and kitchen. I meant to make it 6 inches above the counter, not 4, but really this is adjustable to suit your needs. Pick a height that looks good (don't forget to include how it looks with an island hood) and is an easy fit for electrical outlets and the backsplash tile you choose to use.

  • abundantblessings
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I'm guessing the upstairs bath is above the one on the main level. If code doesn't permit a kitchen chute, modifying the bath closet may be easy enough.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Found this photo at houzz just now and thought of you and your kitchen, Flying C. Maybe it will help you visualize having your range in the peninsula with a mini-backsplash behind it.

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-dc-metro-phvw-vp~87188)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by dc metro kitchen and bath Case Design/Remodeling, Inc.

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Lisa- Great picture!

    If Flying does not want the hood over the peninsula, could you do something similar to her original plan? I like the idea of the cooktop against the wall and the peninsula open for prep space. Maybe a stool on the end, if there's not room, in the dining area.

    I like the idea of the cooktop on the peninsula, but being tall, that hood would really bug me. It's pretty, but I would constantly be trying to see under it, into the dining area.

    Do you think an undercounter oven would work on the peninsula, with another one under the cooktop? I know there's not room to push the fridge into the closet area, but maybe the coat area could make it feel a bit more built in...and it would be close to the peninsula, for prep.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Unless she really wants to shrink her DR (and she has said she doesn't want a banquette so can't see how she could do a much smaller DR), I don't see how I can move the range to the perimeter. Oh, well, wait, maybe there is an option. What about this?

    {{gwi:1935514}}

    I swapped sink and range. Cheaper venting, nothing to block the view into the DR. Flying C, you might still want a short wall behind the sink. Or not, to make it easier to pass items between kitchen and DR. Anyhoo, I left the 4" span there to be either a very shallow overhang or a short wall.

    Flying C, the upper cab to the right of the sink could be along the back wall as I've shown it or turned 90 degrees, brought down to the counter with glass doors on each side, like this great idea I saw yesterday at Chateau Marseilles, one of the Street of Dreams' homes.


    Portland Real Estate Blog

    I wouldn't make the cab any wider than 24" to avoid eating into your work space next to your sink.

    LL, no way to put the fridge in the coat closet - the tub is in the way to put anything wider than a 30". Not really a good idea - limits choices of fridges and storage. Plus it would stick out farther than the ovens do.

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Lisa- That's brilliant! I like the windows on either side of the cooktop and talking to people in the dining room, while you're working at the sink.

    You're right...the fridge works much better in this location and the ovens still fit in the closet. Neat idea about the upper cabinets, too.

    I hope Flying likes it, because I think it's wonderful! :)

  • judydel
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I just want to point out that a coat closet requires more than 18" in depth. Our is 28.5" deep including the framing and sheetrock and there isn't room to spare once you hang the bar and clothes.

    An 18" cupboard would be great, though, for groceries, kitchen equipment that doesn't fit in the limited kitchen cabinets, small appliances, etc.

    In Lisa's last drawing the "dining room" (nook) is not quite 10' x 11.5'.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    This isn't a true coat closet with hangers, judy, so it doesn't need to be deeper than 18". Coats will hang on hooks with room for shoes and bags. Kinda like this (possibly with doors over the coat hook area, too - her choice):

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/olentangy-falls--delaware-oh-traditional-entry-cleveland-phvw-vp~235664)

    [contemporary laundry room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-laundry-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_753~s_2103) by other metros general contractor Weaver Custom Homes

    Or this:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/teri-turan-traditional-entry-atlanta-phvw-vp~216325)

    [traditional entry design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-entryway-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_741~s_2107) by atlanta kitchen and bath Teri Turan

    The DR measures 117.5", same as it does in my drawings posted Aug 17th. There will be 38" around a 48" table, 41" around a 42" table. It's tight, no doubt about it. Flying C could always co-opt a few inches from the kitchen. It just means giving up some of the counter (122" in the latest plan, not counting the movable island) and cabinet space that she wants.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Thanks, LL! ;-) Here's hoping it helps Flying C.

  • flying_c
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Hey Lisa! I'm really liking the sink in the peninsula and the windows on either side of the stove. Would definitely make venting easier.

    On the other hand, if we do end up with the cooktop/range on the peninsula, I found this hood, which is a flush mount island hood. Looks good in theory! No reviews, though...

    Oh, and LL, we haven't totally ruled out recessing the fridge into the closet. It will depend on how big the space can be. We currently have a 33" full-depth fridge which is adequate for us. I wouldn't want to go smaller. If a 33" will fit, then it's a possibility. (I have to admit I really covet that long uninterrupted stretch of counter.)

    Some other things I've been pondering:

    If moving the door proves prohibitive, we could consider running 12" deep cabinets along that wall, stopping short of the door, and with slight recess in front of the closet deep enough to accommodate a Breville toaster oven. Then we'd do a range.

    About the coat cupboard, I'm starting to think I should go with dianalo's suggestion of having a few hooks in the kitchen and using the pantry closet as a coat closet (which it's really meant to be - has a pole and everything). And then the shallow storage in the kitchen would be pantry space. We'd likely put the hooks behind the door, whichever way the door ends up swinging.

    Other ponderings: I saw a kitchen on here recently that did a trash pullout under the sink. Thinking that might work for us, and would buy a bit more drawer space. And I'm also considering maybe going down to a 30" sink base. I wanted the 33" to be able to fit a 30" sink. But we currently have a 25" sink, and it's adequate (though not luxurious). Need to decide whether more counter space is worth the tradeoff.

    I've got a call into a contractor for an estimate, eep. I'm going to ask about adding on a mudroom behind the kitchen. It's probably going to prohibitive (weird lot), but it can't hurt to ask.

    C

  • flying_c
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Realized I never showed pictures of the kitchen as it currently stands. So, for the curious...

    Fridge wall and back door

    Sink wall

    Stove wall (note freestanding stove)

    'Mudroom' wall (with bonus hanging garlic)

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    No clue about how well that island venting works but WOW, what a price tag! That alone would steer me in another direction.

    You might also ask the contractor about taking advantage of stud space. In other words, if you can recess a few inches into the wall between kitchen and bathroom, gaining a bit more storage for coat and/or pantry storage on that wall.

    Your idea for that entry wall is a good idea. Just make sure you allow enough room around the toaster oven. They can't be built in like MWs. Many require several inches of clearance between them and combustible materials.

    I know the kitchen with the trash pull-out under the sink that you're talking about. I clipped that idea, too. Speaking of pull-outs under sinks, I was thinking that if you go with the sink in the peninsula, you might want to consider an apron sink. That will gain you a few more inches behind the sink as opposed to a drop-in or under-mount. Course I don't even know what kind of counter top you're doing and if you're considering laminate, under-mount and aprons are a bit tricky to do with laminate.

    Love the arches in your space. I'd definitely play that up with your remodel, perhaps adding some kind of arch to the space between kitchen and DR. That will help to give it the illusion of being separate spaces. Love your kitty at the back door, too. And the hanging garlic. ;-)

    Here's hoping the quote for your remodel isn't too prohibitive.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Just saw this room dividing idea at houzz.com, made me think of your kitchen.

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/case-design-remodeling-inc-traditional-kitchen-dc-metro-phvw-vp~92628)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by dc metro kitchen and bath Case Design/Remodeling, Inc.

    You could arch the doorway as well as the space above the counter.

    Ooh, or maybe one big arch like this:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/restoration-of-historic-homesthe-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-seattle-phvw-vp~25845)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107)

    Houzz.com has lots of dangerous eye-candy. ;-)

  • rosie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying C, I've enjoyed coming by several times, but plans for a kitchen within the current footprint, or even smaller, haven't shown up yet. So, FWIW, you currently plan to have 4 people living and dining each day, and you may even occasionally want to serve dinner to a couple more. (Surely no more than one set of grandparents will visit at one time, bringing no one else of course?)

    Small great kitchens are VERY achievable, even tiny ones, but small great dining areas not so much. You either have room to seat the 7, wait--8, whoops...10 now?--people who are there, or you don't. Yours is a compact but nice and charming home, and being able to seat 8 without fuss (skooching sideways okay, tho) is a sensible, basic-function goal that should not be forgotten in the excitement of what stealing 8 inches here, another 6 there gains for the kitchen. Once again on this forum, I recommend allocating the basic dimensions you require for the dining function, then fitting the kitchen into what remains. Ultimately, after all, the kitchen is about meals--Eating them. Enjoying them. Together. There. My 2 cents.

  • dianalo
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I think a comfortable space to eat for a decent size group is important, but if it is rare, then that is what portable fold out tables were designed for. I see many houses with grand dining rooms used once or twice a year, but the kitchen, which is used every day is not as grand.
    If the people you have over are served good food and are among good company, that is what counts, as long as they are not thoroughly squished.
    Does that island vent need to vent out the roof or can it go sideways? I think something like that is awesome. I wish I had seen that when researching our kitchen. Less than $2k is not too bad for an island hood, esp one so nice. We have nothing above our kitchen so it would have worked in our case for sure... sigh.

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying- I think your current kitchen is cute, but I like vintage kitchens...and blue tile...and beadboard :)

    Can you include a picture of your current dining room? It really helps seeing the kitchen and getting an idea of the space.

    Also, I'm wondering if your contractor will say the wall can be removed easily (non-load bearing) and if there's no pipes or other difficulties. That will make a big difference in your options, too.

    I know your budget is limited, but if you're thinking about adding on a mudroom....and the dining/kitchen wall proves cost prohibitive to remove...have you ever thought of adding a small nook/mudroom combination? Maybe a banquette or small table and chairs in the kitchen, with the mudroom area? We've never really discussed adding on, but it might be something to think about. Just an idea...

    Oh, and I think Rosie makes a VERY good point about the dining room. A formal dining room may sit empty, but if you have only one dining area, you want it to be comfortable for your family. If sit-down dinners together, is how you entertain, it's important that you all have room to actually sit down :)

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying- I don't think I ever mentioned that my farmhouse has a very similar layout, to your home. Living room in front, bedroom behind and across is the dining room with small kitchen, behind. Our plan is to also take down the wall between the dining room and kitchen and make it one big space.

    Every day, it's just the two of us and maybe my mom or a friend or two, but we have big families and lots of friends...and need space for a table that can easily seat 8-10...sometimes even squeeze in a few more. So, we decided against a peninsula or an island, because we need flexibility, most of all. Instead, we thought a work table (in place of an island) will give us the extra prep space we need and room for a few stools, but we can move it, when we need more table space. We have a basic L-shape layout, with the prep table and I wonder if something similar would work, for you.

    My photobucket account crashed, so my pictures are gone, but I did have a plan option, with the cooktop on the wall by the back door, the sink under the window and the fridge on the end. I remember the 6" pipe was in the way, but the fridge could move down a bit, if the pipe was fixed. With Lisa's idea to recess the ovens into the closet space...you could have a nice kitchen work space, with extra prep on a work table. The dining room could stay in front, but no peninsula in the way, when the table needs to expand. You could turn the table sideways and actually stretch it into the kitchen area, when you have a lot of people over.

    Again, I don't know if this would work for you, but it turned out to be our best/favorite option :)

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Another point of view: my DR is the same width as the DR I drew for you, Flying. Didn't plan it that way, only realized it this evening when I measured it out of curiosity. We have a 38" wide antique table in the DR, purchased when we lived in a smaller house and kept because we love it. At some point in the future, we'll inherit a 48" wide round table for the DR. Having a table this wide does mean less room around the table than what is recommended by NKBA (44" around a table) but we don't use our formal DR often so I'm not concerned about it.

    Our kitchen nook area isn't even as wide as our DR. We have a 42" wide table. We have 28" between table and back of couch (hubby sits on that side) and 40" between table and island counter. It's snug on hubby's side, to say the least, but it only needs to fit him - no one passes behind him when he is seated. We have plenty of room to pass behind diners on the other side. Again, it's less than the 44" NKBA recommends but it's never been a problem for us.

    It's going to be a balancing act between having enough room for your table and chairs in your DR and having enough room in your kitchen to do your cooking, canning and brewing - and to store all the items you want to store. We can tell you our experiences and what works for us but only you can decide what will work for you.

    If you want to steal a few inches from your kitchen (I'm talking about the last 2 plans I drew), that's easy enough to do without much hardship. You might need to give up the rolling island, though. Or at the least shrink it to 24" x 24" so that you keep at least 36" between it and the perimeter counters.

  • lascatx
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Just wanted to ask if converting the tub in the bath to a shower would be an option. That would allow you to recess a full sized fridge and have some shallow shelving pantry space onthe kitchen side of the wall and possibly retain some storage space (shallow shelving or linen closet) on the bath side. I'm of the view that you should have a tub in the house, but it doesn't look like you need it downstairs where the bedroom is "office/bedroom". A shower is fine for guests and probably better for any coming in from the outdoor needs. Opening the wall, as opposed to taking it down, would probably involve a header over the fridge and might nix a cabinet there (capture that for storage on the bath side), but not a major structural change.

    Just a thought.....

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Lisa- Nice pictures! I have a question for you...is there anyway to open up more windows to the backyard? As Flying's little girl gets older, it would be nice to be able see her, when she's playing, in the backyard.

    Lascatx makes a good point about the shower...maybe even a walk-in(?) shower...the ones with low side and door, so you can easily get in and out, without stepping over the side of the tub? These can be really popular at resale, in case someone is older and can't get in and out of a tub and needs a downstairs bedroom/bathroom.

    So, I guess I'm asking, if the fridge could be recessed into the wall, maybe with a pantry or coat area...could the sink be on the back wall (with a big window) and the range on the side wall...with either a peninsula or work table in the middle? It would be nice to have a work area that is just for prep, with no sink or cooktop taking up the space. Either put the ovens under the cooktop or in the peninsula. Just a thought :)

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Not sure if you're still hanging around, Flying C, but I saw this photo on houzz and thought it might be helpful to you.

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/hillside-residence-hanover-nh-contemporary-kitchen-burlington-phvw-vp~107546)

    [contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by burlington architect Smith & Vansant Architects PC

    I know the last plan I posted - the one it seems you're most interested in - has the cook top (or range) on the top wall and the sink on the peninsula. However, if you think you might want to swap the cook top with the sink - that does make for a better flow - then here's a way for you to have a backsplash behind and a hood above the cook top while still having your kitchen mostly open to your DR. The ceilings are taller than yours are but with the right type of hood, I think it would look good.

  • colorfast
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I got a lot of advice on peninsulas and U-shaped kitchens when I first posted. I am linking it.

    Biochem101 posted a lot of great pix of U-shaped kitchens on my page. They aren't showing now; hopefully you can email her.

    Photo of my peninsula cabinets

    Here is a link that might be useful: U Shaped Kitchen Layout

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    LL, I didn't see your question until now, sorry.

    I wasn't going to draw up a plan that recesses the fridge into the pantry closet because it sounds like that set-up limits the size of fridge Flying can get - 30" most likely, possibly 33" - unless she makes modifications to the bathroom, swapping out the tub for a shower as suggested by lascatx above. Personally, I'd be reluctant to limit fridge size. My SIL had a heckuva time finding a new fridge to fit their existing cabinet - height and width were what was common when they built, not what is common now. We had to modify our cabinet by jacking it up 2" with plywood inserts at the base - ugly but short-term - to fit our new, taller fridge. Thank goodness we weren't hindered by soffits like my SIL. That said, there does seem to be more choices for smaller fridges that there were even a couple years ago so perhaps this isn't a big deal after all. But it's still not the norm, which means fridges will often cost more.

    But if that's not a concern for Flying, then yes, changes can be made to the plan I posted Tue, Aug 23, 11 at 20:39 so that the sink can be placed on the entry wall. The door would need to stay put or shift over only 6" so that there's room to have the DW next to the sink. It would be 12" of wall, 40" door, DW, 33" or 36" sink cab (smaller sink cab leaves a few more inches between counter run and doorway), spacer cabinet, corner, then 38" to range. This would leave a long stretch of peninsula counter between DR and kitchen. The 2nd oven would need to go under the counter here. The bathroom wall set-up would need to change a bit, too. because the entry shifts over only 6", not 12". Staggering the cabinet depth would work: 12" deep cabs close to the doorway, 18" deep cabs next to the fridge.

    If Flying has the funds and the desire to do the extra remodeling required to recess a 36" fridge in the pantry closet, the above still works, too.

    But if the only reason for all this extra work is to get a view to the backyard, it might not be necessary. Flying's back door has a window in its top half. If that's not enough, she can add a window along that back wall ala the photo I posted Fri, Aug 12, 11 at 14:02. It would mean giving up a little bit of upper cabinet room (about 12" I think).

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Flying C, saw this on houzz.com tonight. Maybe you could do something like this for your coat closet area and - fingers crossed - it would mean that you could keep the rad as is. That would save you some money.

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/west-newton-mudroom-entry-boston-phvw-vp~94507)

    [entry design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/entryway-ideas-phbr0-bp~t_741) by boston kitchen and bath Venegas and Company