If you have a door to the garage, does that mean the kitchen shares a wall with the garage? Mine does, and my double oven is installed flush with that wall, sticking out into the garage. It frees up cab space under the separate cooktop. Could you do that?

Also, the Miele Speed oven and the GE Advantium can go under counter, I think. Is there something about your space that makes these not work under your counter, or did I misunderstand you?

Have you considered other hoods, like Kobe or Proline?

There's a lot on the Appliances forum about hoods, speed ovens, and ranges.

If you have a family of 4 and cook enough to warrant a 48" range I would strongly suggest 24" dishwasher. 18" dishwashers are for San Francisco/Manhattan singles.

If DW noise is your primary concern there is the panel ready Bosch SHV7ER53UC for about $1200 that is just 1DB louder than the TOL Miele. Miele is a better bet for long term durability,cleaning with hard water,and superior service.There is the TOL panel ready Bosch SHV9ER53UC that is about 2 db quieter than the TOL Miele but you are looking at $1800. At this point I would spend $1749 for the Miele Futura Dimension Series G5570SCVi even though it is a little louder.

I would have a salesman show how to clean a VAH. It has to be done more often than a baffled hood and is a PITA IMO.If you are looking at one of the nicer VAH I would look at Independent,Modern Air,and Prestige.If looking at lower end VAH Kobe or Zephyr are good alternatives. This "our Magic CFMs are more powerfull than their CFMs" is BS IMO. If you get one get one where the nominal power matches your needs.

Most poeple don't turn on their hood when their gas oven is on. They do turn on to remove heat and maybe effluent when baking something smelly like fish. I don't recall anyone having a problem with gas toxic byproduct sufficient enough to require venting. Therefore making an electric oven/dual fuel a superior choice for this reason. I suppose if you have one of new uber-Green and uber-airtight LEED homes gas oven byproduct may be a concern.

Ranges. I would look at all the Capital Culinarian and Bluestar threads in the Appliance forum.

Thanks Ginny20 & deeageaux! Am about to go hunting in the appliance forums too. I hadn't heard about the other alternatives to VAH and have been trying to sort out if the upcharge is worth it for the dual fuel ranges. The product specifications for the snazzy GE Advantium (found online, no one has them in stock near me) say that it shouldn't go under a counter or in an island. Don't know about the Miele though. We've a tall single car garage, so I did talk to the builder about wall ovens into the garage space and shifting over the door to do exactly what you've described. Not to be here though! Would relocate the stairs, which would relocate the furnace, which would relocate the water heaters... the domino cost effect was alarming, parking space shrinking and then fire codes came up since it's really an exterior wall somehow.

Thanks also for the info about DW actual noise. The appliance person I talked with had said that there's no industry standard way to rate the decibels, but they also (understandably) don't have them hooked up so interested people can just listen to them. All seemed to have more space and have got to be better than our decade old disintegrating KitchenAid. I liked how the Mieles adjusted in the showroom and was curious about the 18" model since I've never seen one in person. What you said about NYC makes sense to me.

Thanks for your energy and assistance! Positive thoughts.

The appliance person I talked with had said that there's no industry standard way to rate the decibels

There is only one scientific way to rate decibals. What the appliance salesperson means to say is that there is not industry wide certification process. Companies could fib a little and there is no way to catch them.

Also there is the issue of noise and noise quality. Some people that make their living in music/sound equipment/etc say that altough Asko is noiser than Miele/Bosch in general that the sound is more pleasant to most people.

So the DB is only real way to orgainize things because no one is doing organized scientific testing and we as consumers can't buy a dozen or so DWers to figure out which is best for us.

I can second the Asko or Bosch options as a bit less than Miele but so much better than your ancient. Check on current Asko issues as the company has changed since we had one but used them in a few houses. The Bosch has an underpan that's supposed to prevent leaks if you have HW floors to consider. I'd definitely go with the standard 24" no matter what and I mostly handwash at this point but have need for DW occasionally.

The MW does not have to be built-in to be under the counter so you can get what you like, including convection. You can install trim if the built-in look important.

Can't help you with ranges, but even with a family of four you may be happy with a 5-burner 36". If you have rust forming on the old MW, then maybe an electric oven is better for you as gas may deteriorate faster in a humid or salt-air envirnonment.

Finally, if you're replacing countertops with solid surface I hope you'll consider the integrated sink bowls and eliminate crud hiding places. Good luck and enjoy your Thanksgiving in the updated kitchen!

The CW on the AP is that B is no longer in the same league as M but A is still OK.

Hoods are rarely displayed where I live, and those that are aren't hooked up so you can hear them (like DWs). I bought a Kobe at VentingDirect.com, based on recs on Appliances, and it is pretty quiet and it does seem to have good suction, despite the long ducts we needed. My appliance guy told me what deeageaux said, that the VAH was difficult to clean. The baffles come out of my Kobe easily. Broan makes a nice looking undercabinet hood, but I rejected it because the switches seemed too close to the hot halogen lights for safety. Proline has videos online showing how to clean theirs. Also, I think it came with optional fluorescent lights that don't get so hot. Maybe other brands do, too.

Sayde has her Miele Speed Oven under the counter. I don't know how it is installed there, however. Want me to ask her?

marcolo, you crack me up! The sad thing is, I understood what you wrote. I've spent too much time here.

marcolo, you crack me up! The sad thing is, I understood what you wrote. I've spent too much time here.

Ditto. Maybe we should start a support group. Oh wait, this is our support group. Is that sad, too??

Starting with appliances is the right way to go. Possibly this link might be of assistance...

Here is a link that might be useful: Remodeling tips