I'm going to suggest you post your layout here. Let some very knowledgable and experienced people take a look at it. Then, once you're close, go to a big box store and get some free design input. THEN... when you've explored and settled on what your needs/wants are; interview some KD's, architects, or design build firms to find those who you click with and who also appreciate your vision and knowledge. With their expert experience you should be able to tweak and perfect a layout and order the cabs that'll work/look exactly as you want them too.

Are you saying that you found out you don't like the architect's design from the initial architect once you saw it rendered in 3D? Is the rest of the kitchen (windows, doors, walls, etc) already in place from the initial design?

Are you having the cabinets built from scratch?

For architect's rates, $120/hour is not unreasonable.

I have a quote from an architect who has an hourly rate of $110. The hourly rate is just that: if he spends an hour doing schematic design or an hour doing construction documents, that's the fee for that hour.

I also had a consultation hour on another project with an architect recommended by some friends who charged me $250 for that hour. (The friends said he was very expensive, so I knew that going into the hour.) And yet, someone else told me they thought the $110/hour was expensive. :-)

I'm in the first phase of my kitchen project (schematic design), that I think you might already be beyond, if you already have had an architect's draft of your kitchen space. I will share what the architect said he can do for me.

In schematic design, cost would be on actual hours spent preparing design options to fit my wishlist/budget. The deliverables are free-hand and CAD drawings that will illustrate the design to me. He has worked with custom cabinet companies in the past and can design the cabinetry (the details of the woodwork, etc).

Then, the next phase would be drawing up all of the construction and bid documents. I am looking at having enough details so that I can send out to bid with more than one builder.

If what you need is design of the cabinetry to go to your cabinet maker, I'd probably be looking for an architect who has designed cabinets or woodwork before: all of the mouldings, beads, etc. And the deliverables would then be plan documents with all of the precise measurements, including placement of hardware, that you could hand to a cabinet maker who would then build to those specs.

Just saw remodelfla's advice above--and I agree with it! :-)

It is very important to me to have an architect that I can work with on the design. I have an initial layout--thanks to the feedback from people on this forum--and what I'm seeking a pro for is for input on aesthetic or technical conflicts that I don't know to ask about.

In fact, I switched my layout a bit based on comments from folks on this forum who pointed out a physical conflict in my layout that I hadn't noticed initially.

I would ask the architect for a very rough (because that's all he'll commit to anyway) estimate of the number of hours HE thinks it would take.

That is a much better estimate than ours.

Then ask what happens if you get halfway through the design process and you're just not loving it. Can you pay for the work done and walk away with the plans as they are?

(Don't assume you have control over the designs. I've heard some strange stories on this board.)

I did this with a designer I was just not wild about. They did a design, did some tweaks, did some more tweaks, but it was clear they were NEVER going to get there. They were strangely afraid of everything in the kitchen, "begging" me not to do things, and telling me all my choices were bad, giving me funny, superior looks.

So I paid my hourlies, thanked them and took the basic designs and room measurements to a cabinetmaker, which is all I really needed. It worked out perfectly -- and they were a delight to work with.

The designer's estimate was reasonably on the mark though.

And some have a reduced rate they bill for the graphics person who does the drawing.

But I think paying by the hour is good, rather than designers who want a percentage, or are design build or some other back-end pay structure that commits you to staying with them even if you hate the design, throwing good money after bad.

The rate doesn't sound bad to me, but you might compare it to other rates in YOUR area.

Also ask yourself if this is the kind of remodel you want, or if it's overkill. It's not bad to seek other options if you just want something simpler. The architect may even be able to recommend someone smaller. Not everyone is right for every project, they understand that, particularly if you're not tearing down any walls and you don't really need an architect.

Good luck!

growlery's advice is spot on. You do need to compare to rates in your area.

Your first initial consultation should be free--so the architect can get an idea of the scope of your project. Then, he or she would send you a proposal document that estimates how many hours for the "schematic design" phase, and the estimated amount based on those hours. That way, you only have to sign up to that "cap" of money amount. That cap is based on the estimated hours--and some contracts will state they only bill for hours spent, so if they spend only 1 hour measuring the kitchen vs than the 2 hours estimated (and if you don't use that hour in an extra meeting or something)--then you've saved an hour's fee.

For myself, I made sure that I could walk away with the stuff that's completed at the end of that phase: the drawings, the measurements done, the CAD files, etc. After all, if I paid for the time to take my measurements, I should get the associated items.

One design-build company's contract stated that *they* would own all of the designs, etc after the design phase, even if I choose to go to another builder. They required a $2000 up front for the design phase, and I wouldn't see anything from that if I decided I disliked their designs. I would not sign with them.

Wow - this is the first time I've even heard of fees like this to design a kitchen. Is it brand new space? If not, then you wouldn't even need an architect - you need a kitchen designer.

Every kitchen design place in my area (suburb of NYC0 is FREE, FREE, FREE. Absolutely no charge until you order cabinets. As long as I went to them - if they came to my house, then they charged a fee (I think) that was then applied to the cost of the cabinets. But, I cetainly didn't need them to come and measure. I brought a layout of my kitchen with measurements and my requests and they designed me a kitchen. I gave as few requirements as possible because I didn't want to limit their creative ideas. I did this with 5 places - chose the 5th.

Also, in choosing a kitchen designer - yes, you need to be able to work with the person and if they're snotty, that's not good. But it's the product you have to love. Unless you have 2 places who carry the same product - then it's the designer.

Take your measurements and go shop them around.

I design and sell kitchens.
If the client is local I will go take the measurement and design 1 layout/rendering (see attached sample) after a brainstorm whit them for a flat fee of $500.
If the client is not local they have to options send me the measurements (80% of the case) or they can pay me $50 per hour.

In the end if they will order the kitchen from me they will have CAD drawing of the kitchen for installation propose with all the dimensions, an electrical/pluming drawings.

revision depend projects by projects. etc...

sample of rendering.

In the scenario you describe melinrk, the kitchen designer is tied into specific cabinet manufacturers. They make their money by selling you the cabinets. So, its not really free, because they don't design the kitchen and let you leave with the drawings. You May get a copy of the drawing After you pay your deposit.

In the other scenario, the kitchen is designed by an architect or designer who does not sell specific cabinets but makes their fee by charging a design fee (and $100 is about right in a lot of areas).

Sometimes you will get a design at a big box store by one of their kitchen designers, and you will get a copy of it without committing to order. These companies have a high volume and the person designing is an employee of the store, so they get a salary, and a commission if you order. Sometimes these designers are good designers, sometimes that are good a plugging stuff in the software. Its a mixed bag. (but so are designers and architects)

It is hard for a freestanding designer to compete with the kitchen places, and it is hard for both to compete with the big box stores, when design fees seem "free" because they are rolled into the upcharge of the cabinets--you are really paying for it either way.
----
I don't want to go too far off topic but I want to give an example of what happens with the perception that the design is free (while it is actually intellectual property for a while, at least)

I once did a consult for a probematic bath design. (5 x 4'9") and it was the only full bath--dont ask )I met with the client for several hours and went through his wish list and I talked A LOT. He paid my consult fee ($200)and I never heard from him until a year later. When I went to his house, he had implemented, without any drawings, (and not very well) the verbal design I had given him, and wanted to know if I could "fix" what the contractor "hadn't understood". He had no understanding that what he had done was kind of wrong on a number of levels. Did he really think that I had "designed" the bathroom and that $200 covered it? At that rate I would have to design 200 bathrooms a year to not starve to death :)

I don't know how my experience compares but I recently spoke with a local kitchen design firm that came highly recommended. We're about to begin construction of a new house and I have a pretty clear idea what I want. For "design only service," the quoted fixed fee was $3,000. I thought that seemed rather high.

Hi melinrk,

In my situation, the reason why I cannot just walk into a "big box" store and get a layout is that I am completely re-doing the walls, windows, doors, etc in my kitchen. I'm pretty sure that I want to keep the same house foundational footprint, but all of the rest can change. I term it a "gut renovation" when I interview potential contractors or designers.

For example, the big box stores want you to measure the windows including the casings. Well, how would I know what the casings will be if I'm getting rid of the existing windows? How would I know what width casing would or would not "look" right aesthetically for my new casings?

Could I figure all those details myself? Yes, I have confidence in my ability to learn and do the details, given time. But why not pay someone who can do all that in less time than I could on my own--even if the payment is per hour?

I spoke to a number of "design-build" and in-store type of designers and came to the conclusion that I wanted the expertise of an architect. I read Amy Johnston's book "What Your Contractor Can't Tell You", and I like the idea of a per-hour-fee architect to be my advocate when the contractor decides to do something that wasn't specified in the design.

But my situation is an edge case compared to most kitchen remodels. If you're retaining your existing walls/windows/doors and are layout out a new interior footprint, then a KD associated with a showroom or someone with one of the "big box" stores might suffice.

That's why I think growlery's advice is spot on. An architect might be overkill for the OP's situation. For my situation, I think it will be a worthwhile investment to get the design details precisely right because of all the changing going on in my kitchen "space". I think I would drive one of the "free" designers bonkers if I asked them to tweak for every window casing width just so I could see what looks right. If it's on my dime, then I can choose how many iterations I want to see. :-)

We are using an Architect for our complete house remodel. The 'lead' Architect charges $150 and hour and the 'project manager' charges $85. We interviewed 3 firms and the rates ranged from $150- $250.

Since I had a very good idea of what I wanted in my new kitchen I decided to go to Lowes and utilize their free design service to get a rough layout. This layout was then given to the Architect so he had a better idea of what I wanted and didn't waste time.

I also went to a fed KDs that sold lines we were interested in, Rutt and CWP. They told me to do an initial layout, etc would require a deposit between $1200-$5000 depending on the scope of the project. I was also told something similar by Poggen Pohl.

If you have a set space take the measurements into Lowe's and let them play around with the design for free then post it here, have GW people tweak the design, go back to Lowe's get more 3D images/Layouts until you find something you like. This is obviously time consuming, but would avoid the KD fee. I would go to Lowes over HD because HD charges $100, which is good towards the purchase of cabinets, but if you are doing this 'just to see' I wouldn't waste the money.

We hired a kitchen designer hoping to get fresh great ideas for our kitchen. She charged by the hour and I was a little nervous with that, so I asked her to tell me how many hours approximately, and she told me that she could not give a definite answer, but gave a ball park figure for hours. I decided to go for it, as we wanted new input and someone with a design background. When she returned with the drawings, she said that she was giving us a discount and the total was $800.00 for the initial renderings. I paid her and let her know that when we were ready to proceed, that we would call her. The $800.00 was more than her ball park figure, but because of social/ work relations as to how the referral came about, we did not question her charges. In the end, we did not use her drawings. It felt like money wasted. We did not use her drawings, because they were not the best ideas, nor were they very different from what we already thought about. In fact, my sister said she could have done the same thing in a couple of hours on a computer program, by making a place for the sink, stove and fridge and moving on from there! We had our cabinets made custom and the designer there did the layout before we even committed to buying the cabinets. Then, just as I was about to order my cabinets, I found GW. If I could have held off starting my kitchen, I would have posted our plans here, and plans that showed how my kitchen related to the rest of my home too. I think the feedback here is thorough.
So for us, the $ hourly rate did not work and I do think GW has much talent and experience to offer.

Agh...ok, ok, I get it, you've had different experiences than I have. I'm only here sharing mine.

I wouldn't use a big box store unless I knew exactly what I wanted. If there were any questions, I would worry that I was getting someone knowledgable.

Yes, the KD is tied into specific brands, and that is how they make their "fee". They deserve to be paid for their work. In my experience, I visited 5 different KD's and NONE of them charged me a CENT. After an initial meeting, they each called me back about a week later to go over plans and I left with complete drawings, brochures and an estimate. The first money I paid was when I actually ordered my cabinets.

Maybe it's different where you are. KD's are in sales, whether their product is intellectual property or cabinets. I certainly don't want to waste anyone's time, but I would never buy something without seeing what I'm getting first. I'm surprised anyone charges a fee now - maybe in a booming economy, but certainly not now.

I am kind of surprised that you were able to get complete drawings without making a commitment at multiple places, because those drawings could be taken to the big box store or any competition and you could get the design you wanted without paying the designer, and the Other place would still be getting the fee.

This may vary by geography. I have gone to kitchen places with a layout I have done myself (for a client), had it plugged in to a particular manufacturer's line and Still not walked out with drawings (I am assuming because with their drawings I could order the cabinets at another dealer). --and they looked at me like I was crazy for even asking, even though I brought the design in the door myself.

I have walked out of HD or Lowe's with a drawing and no commitment but their volume is enormous.

In our situation, paying a designer was very worth the cost for the kitchen. I knew the individual's high quality work. We had a relatively small area (no expansion)of kitchen, dining room, entry way, powder room that needed a completely new floor plan, gutting to be most efficient and useful.
We told the designer our goal was as much cabinet and counter space as possible. We got 3 very different, creative plans. I had been drawing plan options for several years and never came up with the options that we were presented. The final plan became a mix of the options (involved moving doors, plumbing, gas & electrical lines).

Then, I took these plans to the KD employed by the company where we bought the cabinets for fine tuning. This person was super and brought another kind of creativity to the details.

Then, I hired an interior designer for other parts of the house and basically felt "ripped off" by someone who overcharged for uncreative ideas (most that we didn't use) while trying to sell products that would increase her income. We ended this relationship asap. It's no surprise that this individual is now out of business.

lkremodel,
You bring up a good point that explains why some designers choose to work on an hourly rate versus an upcharge on goods.

This way the design "work" of the project is independent of the cost of the goods (furniture, kitchen cabinets etc.)
Really there is no reason that designing a 12x15 kitchen with $25K worth of cabinets should command a higher fee than the same kitchen with $8K worth of cabinets.

In my experience, it is often harder to design a kitchen with cheaper cabinets where you have limited sizes and have to work out trim pieces. The custom kitchen I am finishing went in with almost no trim and not a lot of fiddling. Everything was made to fit. The stock kitchen I am doing requires a lot of finagling.

While most designers are honest, there is always the underlying concern that the designer specs a $4000 sofa rather than a $1000 sofa, not because its a better sofa, but because they will make more money if they bill by percentage. There was a lawsuit in the 90s against a very famous and very published design firm for price gouging.

If the designer charges an hourly, this doesnt happen. The homeowner feels the pinch writing the check for it outright however, rather than with the fee hidden in the cost of goods. I have experienced it from the client's end myself.

It definately must be a regional thing. That's why I was so surprised to hear of everyone getting charged. Yes, I could take my plans and go anywhere with them. I like this way best - wish you all could get that too :)

I think merlinrk's point is really valid -- if you know what you want, and you're not changing things around that much, and all you need is cabinets, you DO NOT need to pay for this! That's important these days.

Yes, the showrooms are ties to certain lines, but for most people, that's fine. I don't think it's the showrooms that people get into trouble with. They

It's more the design build, that's the "You have to pay us $5,000 upfront. But you can't see the design first. We own the design. You have to let us build it, for $150,000, even if you hate it."

I sort of understand why. I have a lot of friends who work freelance, and a couple told me that a high percentage of of their clients try not to pay. Many never pay. But you can't take back advice. Nice, huh?

A really top notch designer is wonderful, and can help pull the ideas right out of your head, maybe give you things you've never even seen before. But, I'm sorry to say, as in any other industry, $120 an hour after a certain point if you don't feel you're making progress, reaches a point of diminishing returns -- you receive less and less back for the investment you put in. And the people around here actually have a lot of good advice!

As I have said many times before I have a tiny 200 year old house, so I was tearing down a load bearing wall, looking for ways to use areas other than the kitchen and there were no drawing of the house, so I knew there were going to be a lot of surprises and it was going to be anything but straighforward.

I also never used an architect, the designer called in an engineer to consult on the wall part, and my contractor actually was the one who developed the plan on how to make it work, the engineer did the math, made sure it would work and prepared the paperwork.

It does also just so happen that the best, most creative kitchen designer in my area is coincidentally an architect. So even people who don't "need" an architect use this person. But in general, it's best to select only the level of professional you need.

As in my example, it's fine to hire just a designer if you're thinking maybe about tearing down a wall. They can consult an architect -- with whom they have a good working relationship -- if the project starts to grow. You don't have to make that decision up front.

Hi growlery, where is you at? :-)

I'm interviewing architects. I'd love to interview your "most creative kitchen designer" who is also an architect--if he/she is in my area of Massachusetts.