Sorry, again...Peninsula in the way when trying to get anything from cooking and baking over to cleanup. I'd prefer the prep sink to be on the fridge side of the stove...and how large are you allowing for that? Be sure you leave room for a sink adequately sized for filling and draining pots.

I might not be picturing your house situation that well, but do you want to look into the stove area (and the cook's back) from your family room? I got a little confused about your description of coming into the house and looking through it. It seems like with this plan, you couldn't look through from anywhere to the Fr doors or large window, because things would be in the way...But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean.

The baking center area is pretty limited and you're missing the butcherblock work island you've wanted since the beginning.

I would extend any overhang to the end of the run, because I think it would look like a mistake if it just ended abruptly. I'm also not a big fan of having people sit with their faces so close to the cooking...Splatters, steam, noise from the vent. What kind of vent would you plan?

I think we need to clarify again what you want to accomplish and what your vision might be. Other than keeping the big window and having French doors, I'm not sure how you want this to work with the rest of the house, what your priorities are, etc.

I also am not following very well. Your sink is way over so any prep you do has to travel a bit before you can cook it (unless you are into the raw food movement). Your pantry is in another room? I would have a tighter work triangle.

No need to be sorry at all. That's what I need you guys for. I can't picture things unless I put them down on paper. Now that the two thingies that stuck out are going to be gone I felt like I had more options.

View from front door:

View into current work area- the door leads to the pantry

I 'm getting rid of this bump but the wall will still be offset 15".

Why I'm going through this

Told you I'd be embarrassed about the layout in the morning. I came up with that and I didnt' even have any wine or anything! So it's just another abbertion. I keep trying to take what everyone says and incorporating it thinking I may be missing something. I'm going to play later today when DH watches golf and go back to rhomes layout but see if could slide things down adding some more room and switch the eating area to the back now that DH is cool with cabinets down on the other end. Was the little bench area a dumb idea? I love that you are all straight forward, it motivates to keep thinking.

I am new to this and I have little to add, but- isn't it a good idea to have the sink right next to the dw as you have it? I can understand if the location is not right, but I thought pbrisjar was saying to have space in between and that is confusing me.

Another layout...and now that I look at it again, I'd move the entire island over right a foot and move the cooktop down. I'd make the 18" by the cooktop a prep sink, then 18" cab, 36" cooktop, and end with drawers (sizes adjusted).
There would be no hood coming down blocking view now that i moved the stove over to the other wall. There is a clear path from frig to prep(butcher block) then cooktop. I don't mind if the overhang faces in since it'll over look the family room and we could see the TV. I don't have time now for other tweaks but I value your feedback.
Thanks,
Elyse

Layout #30

Just making sure we're all on the same page...are these the dimensions of your space?

There's only a 6' sliding door on the north wall, but that can be changed. The window on the west wall is 9'

Hi buehl,
The west window wall is only 10' the window is 9'. I'm thinkin' 8ft. french doors centered would be nice though I am going to check out this window wall system called window wall. They completely open... very cool. I had forgotten about those. The rest of the dimensions look perfect.
Thanks!

Can you remove any of the wall in the lower left corner, where you have the baking center in the first layout? (I canÂt read the last one)

I would add a wall in the lower right corner and have the view from the front door looking to the big window. Then you could have an L-shaped kitchen with maybe the island at an angle to keep traffic out of the work area and still have a nice view while you prep. With that table between the window and French doors, I wouldnÂt put too much emphasis on what people seated at the island are looking at.

Fridge to sink to prep to cooktop is still too long and complicated to be efficient enough for me. The family room will look at the dirty dishes area.

I've searched but can't find any posts before #18 and 19. Do you have links to any of the earliest plans that had the cooking on that wall? It seems we were narrowing in on something when dh said he didn't want anything near the family room. Seems like there were plans with the cooktop on that wall and a plan that had the baking area on that wall.

Please forgive me, as I know this will probably sound rude and harsh, but:

You've had at least 30 different designs on this forum, with at least 8 different core concepts. Each design gets refined and tweaked -- then up pops a whole new concept and the whole process starts over. I've seen some really attractive and functional designs tossed right out the window to start over with a whole new concept that has fundamental functional problems.

This makes me wonder if you're really clear enough on what it is you want from your space. In other words:

"If you don't know exactly what you want from your kitchen, how will you know when you have it?

They're all here!

Here is a link that might be useful: RemodelFla's Designs

Here are a couple of ideas:

I have to agree with Sweeby. I donÂt know if itÂs the notations or the layout but some of the kitchens youÂve posted look like mazes to me and IÂm at a loss for understanding what you want.

Anyway, this is my first attempt in Paint and itÂs not at all to scale but what about something like this?

{{!gwi}}

I guess I needed to add the outside lines but I hope you get the idea.

BTW...if you could extend the southwest wall by 3', you could do something like this and have a great Baking Center. The doorway is still 9'

It's near the pantry & refrigerator, out of the way of other cooking that might be going on and has its own sink.

sweeby and backinthesaddle... you're neither being rude or harsh, just honest. What you say is the truth, I have been all over because when I began trying, I didn't even know how to draw a layout and DH didn't want anything down on the lower east wall of the kitchen. I was trying to accomodate that and not lose the window. I feel badly, not in an offended way; in a regretful way. He's totally changed his mind. I tend to think aloud and can't see things unless I put them down on paper. I really shouldn't have posted all my "thinkings", until I really studied and digested them. I love the layouts that have been posted with the island but have been trying to find a way to take that and switch the eating area back to the large window since DH changed his mind.

I value and appreciate all that has been done to help and advise. And I apologize if it appears at all that I took any of that effort for granted. I'm going to go through everything and really think it out. Thanks and I still not gonna give up!

I'm glad you're still speaking to us!
And in no way did I mean to imply that you're taking the efforts of this group for granted -- it doesn't seem that way at all. I'd just like to suggest that you try to clear ALL of the layout chaos out of your mind for now, and starting with a clean mental slate, determine what it is you really need and want from your space:

- How many cooks? Helpers? Ages? Core responsibilities of each?

- What kind of cooking do you do? (It would help to list the foods you prepared for the past week or two.) Baking? Canning? Stir Fry? Grilling?

- What else do you do in that space? Deskwork? Help kids with homework? Eat meals? Entertain? Visit with family members while you cook?

- What are the best views? (Out to yard? In to Family Room?) Best architectural features? (Windows, ceiling heights?)

- What absolutely can't move? What could move, but would be expensive and inconvenient?

- What are your main frustrations with your current kitchen? What problems do you want to solve? And what works really well about your current space and configuration?

- How much space do you need? Countertop for prep? For appliances? Drawers for pots & pans? Uppers for dishes? Pantry? (Inventory what you have and base your needs off of that. Keep a 'minimum' and 'ideal' if you like.) This is really important, because knowing how much space you really need will keep you from sacrificing something you really want for 'more space' that really isn't necessary.

- What are your main goals for the remodel? Write them down! Then prioritize them. You may not be able to get everything you want, but you can get the top items.

After you've done this, then I'd go back through your core design concepts and see how each of them meet your most important needs. You'll probably be able to toss quite a few of them. Write notes on each one about WHY you're tossing it; and if there's some aspect of it that you love, write that down and see if you can't incorporate that aspect into a more functional layout.

Truly - This time will be well-spent.

Here's some answers to your questions sweeby:
1. Mostly I just cook. It'll be DH and I in this home. Kids grown.
2. Cook alot at the stove. Bake maybe 3x a month, except more at holidays. 3. Will use Advantium more then larger oven. We entertain 1x a week, maybe every other. Very informal with family and friends. Large holidays will be here, also informal with people eating inside, outside, mingling, coming and going. Not very many formal sit down meals. That's what we do at our current home which is much larger. We don't live at this house now and are completely gutting, putting on a bedroom/bathroom extension, and remodeling.
4. Can't move any more of the walls as shown since we're already taking out a 5' retaining wall and shoring it up with an i-beam.
5. Views are all about the backyard which is where we'll spend most of our time. Beyond french doors is our screen room which is about 10'W and 17'L. We're extending the length another 22' to go to the end of the house. There will be entrances from there into the master bath, bedroom, and of course the family room.
6. I would like open, informal, not alot of uppers or very traditional. The house is way smaller then I'm accustom to. Will be about 1500 sq with the bedroom/bath extension. Living area is about 900 sq. Fine and affordable for 2 people. My DH has had a leg injury and had to retire. There's a possiblity he'll end up in a wheelchair at some point in time so I want isles wide enough for him to manuver.

I came up with another layout where I took the great island rhome designed in another one for me and moved it down and placed the table back at the far end of the kithen near the window. I tried real hard to take heed of all the advice about not going to far for prep/cook/cleanup. And for keeping it simple. Since I'm barely 5' tall I'm thinking I may have all the lower cabs along the entire east wall built at 33" high. Then I don't have to be concerned with a separate butcher block island. I can incorporate any kind of countertop material I want wherever I want once I get the layout right.
Alright... here I go again.

When my kids at school were asked to decribe me for Teacher Appreciation Day they said, "she never gives up". So, I'm not sure if I'm tenacious or annoying. And sweeby... your verbage did not imply I was taking the group for granted or anything remotely negative. Everyone has been awesome. I'm just feeling really really guilty for being a PIA.
Elyse

Or...how about this one...

It has wide aisles b/c of the wall configurations and b/c it's the only way to the eating area from the rest of the house. The wall configuration is a factor b/c of the 2' & 14" bump ins that would force a too-small aisle at the top of the island--particularly on the east side. It does give you your island though.

One thing I'm not happy about is the direction the seaters are facing on the island...but if you turn the island then the island becomes a barrier island. The pantry is part of the problem...it eliminates 3' off that wall for cabinetry/appliances. This means you cannot use that wall for much.

I forgot to mention, the above layout shortens the west side of the south wall 2' and adds a 30" wall to the east.

OOOHHHH... buehl... move the doorway to the pantry down and lengthen the wall to make it more functional and then I don't have all those broken up 5' length wall. Brilliant. It may involve moving the water heater in there (use to be the laundry room) but that's doable. I had already taken out an exising pantry closet on the south wall which shorten that wall to 5'. I dont' know if I can shorten it another 2' because the air handler is behind there . However, we're upgrading the a/c system so we may be able to move it. Even if I had to keep that wall at 5'L you layout would still work. I could just remove the 30" wall you added on the south east side and put a finished end on that cabinet. Your two layouts are similar... I just shortened the island to accomodate two people so I could add another 36" drawer across from the DW. Let me study the appliance placement between the two. I feel like this might be on the right track! Thank you so much!

Remodelfla, I feel your last layout is getting closer to working. I wonder if you could shift the island toward the dining room (to clear possible interference with the fridge), then over toward the cooktop a foot. (you might even be able to lengthen the island and/or add the butcherblock section to one end) A 60" aisle would be doable, but I'd prefer closer, when you'll be dripping across the floor with wet and chopped veggies. It's nicer to just turn and reach, rather than turn and walk.

I'm afraid your baking/prep area won't be very useful with it so far from the sink. Yucky hands, adding water to projects, draining things out of the microwave, etc.

I like Buehl's idea of adding the 2 ft of wall on the bottom right corner, so that the counters have something to die into, and there is a better delineation for the end of the room. I think you actually have room for the oven and Adv at that end of that run, then the section up by the Fr doors could be dish storage (switch DW to that end of the island), or a beverage/snack/buffet area.

Shoot...This is what I meant, only with the island about 6" more toward the cooktop wall, but it obviously wasn't fitting the way I'd envisioned. Fridges are always such a big pain! ;-) With my sister and with Malhgold, the kitchen plans kept wanting to work much better if we didn't have to fit them in! I guess they're a bit necessary, though...

LOL! I didn't see your last layout...I started working on mine early this morning and in-between being a mom, I worked on them.

Is the butcher block table portable?

(Gotta go...we're taking the kids to see Prince Caspian.)

One more idea for you...

This shortens the huge opening but still leaves almost a 5-foot one. The bank of cabs on the far right by that opening can be for baking with the oven there. The cabs by the double doors can be your breakfast bar. You might even put in a sink. Ignore the "deck" labels. It is faster for me to do cabinets that way.

Oh boy! I left this message on my computer all morning without hitting submit. Now I see all the new layouts. What an inspiration!

I understand getting excited and thinking aloud. I do it all the time and my husband has no appreciation for that anymore when it comes to the kitchen. :)

I like the last layout but I personally wouldnÂt want the gut of my kitchen viewable from the front door or having it be the straightest path to the back door. I also would prefer that my view (at the island, where I spend most of my time in the kitchen) take advantage of either the French doors or the big window. Without considering appliance placement, those things would be the basis of my design.

What are your priorities and which are the least negotiable?

Through the kitchen will be the only path to the back door. I'm fine with that. The house is small and somewhat rectangular. I was either going to walk through the eating area or the kitchen, depending on where we place the table. Since DH conceded appliance placement on the east wall; we definately decided that the table goes by the large window and french doors. That leaves me no choice but to put the kitchen in the middle of the house. We're very relaxed and I'm happy with people hanging out with me when I cook and watch. I just don't like them standing underfoot when I'm trying to get things out . Hmm... it helped to actually say that in terms of appliance placement.
houseful.. I love the curve of the island . I wish I could do layouts like that. I dont' think it'll work for me to close up by building out that wall. But I"m going back to studying all. I'm trying to draw out on graph paper a little bit from all the input.

I like housefulÂs island too and it would satisfy my desire for the view and keep other people out of my way. In fact, itÂs quite similar to what I came up with for our kitchen, except IÂll have a peninsula instead of an island.

I understand that people will have to walk through the kitchen no matter what but the path most likely to get taken with the island facing the pantry wall is between the sink and cooktop. HousefulÂs layout solves that problem and makes the pantry more accessible for cooking, although IÂd swap the fridge and the wall oven.

Funny, I had the frig and oven flipped originally but then thought about the baking center.

If you can completely close it, what about a nice large pass-thru.

I like the fridge to the right because itÂs easier to get too from all areas and it keeps the ovens out of the walkway. Can the baking center and a second sink be put on that wall?

I do like the pass-through, especially with the arch that copies the island but I think 2 sinks on that side of the room does no good at the cooktop and puts it in the traffic lane.

My kitchen is almost exactly a mirror image of your first layout except I only have 6 feet to work with so an island with passage on both sides wasnÂt an option and the cleanup sink will be on the right wall. There is no great view in any direction so having everything handy and people not crowding me (but still being able to help) were the priorities.

WOW... you guys are amazing with the layouts. The way the house is set up (and I have a link if you were really interested); the left side of the house is somewhat of a pathway/foyer. It wouldn't work to do a passthru there. Though I do love arches and are having them incorporated into the house.

I tried to take the last couple of layouts rhome, buehl, and myself did which were all pretty similar and kinda in the direction we were heading. It gives me an open look, informal, and hopefully minimizes traffic issues. Here's what I changed:
1. Moved island down some and closer to east wall.
2. Tried to show an angle cab (I don't know how to draw that so I did the best I could) to eliminate the frig/cab issue some.
3. Free formed the overhang (again, to the best of my ability). I made it 18" deep except I thought that by the sink I could do it 24" to take care of the people getting splashed issue.
4. DH is against moving the pantry door since doing so wont' add any "functionality" (his word meaning appliance placement) to the kitchen. I can live with that.
5. Would be hard to shorten the wall on the south west end due to air handler.
6. I added a 2' wall on the south east end the way rhome suggested.
7. Oh.. almost forgot.. changed the 24" cab next to the sink to a 15" for trash pullout and added the 24" cab on the angle. Don't know how to handle that weird diagonol edge

Tell me what you think:

I thought I'd have all lower cabs built to a 33" height. I'm forgoing the free standing butcher block thing. I buy a real nice one and lay it on my counter when I need it. I'll have a nice long space next to the stove where I can prep to my hearts content. Then clean the sucker and put it away in a drawer top. I could even do one of those pull out ones from one of the drawers. Point is.. I'm at peace with eliminating it.

I think this last layout hit it just right. Your baking area will be super functional sandwiched between the ovens and frig. The main cooking area has a nice tight triangle w/ counter space. I think your visitors eyes will be drawn out to the view and they will automatically choose the left side walkway because of the stools and counter overhang. I don't know how you can keep focused on the kitchen with that gorgeous view. Even this TKO girl would have to take a pause from kitchen dreaming w/ that view teasing her.

OT, everytime I see one of your layouts w/ that liquor storage, I think there has to be some way I can make my liquor and wine cabinet bank fit back into my budget.LOL.

The major flaws I see are the prep sink and island seating.

You need a few inches of counter around a sink so a 15" cabinet wonÂt work and neither will 18" at the end of a run. Plus, you canÂt really stand in front of less than 24" comfortably so that location would be really tight.

Is the island seating staggered? It doesnÂt seem like anyone could carry on a conversation there.

Here is what I came up with using the wonky IKEA software and Photoshop. Same thing really but I moved the ovens to the main kitchen to make room for a larger prep sink cabinet and changed the island seating to a curve at the end.

The two doors at the bottom are just for scale and both are 4 feet wide. Ignore the black cabinets to the left and the bump out for the French doors.

{{!gwi}}

I didn't realize that a 15" cab couldn't house a small round prep sink. I only need it for rinsing hands, veggies, and maybe berries/fruit for baking. How small/large are those small round sinks? Like a bar sink?

I'm not clear on which 18" cab at the end of run you're referring to. I've had so many layouts maybe I don't know which one to look at! I came up with a slightly tweaked version of my last layout (#32) where the overhang is curved and might be more conducive to conversation as you suggested. The layout is almost exactly as you depicted except I curved the left side of the island leaving more room between there and the lower left wall. I may be able to lose a foot of space at the bottom there (lower left) but not certain yet.

I'm going to wait to post what I'm hoping is a FINAL version till I read all the great feedback. Thanks for being so helpful. I'll work on finding out about the prep sink.

The round 15" sinks usually have an 18" minimum cabinet requirement. That works great when itÂs in the middle of a run but on the end, you need at least 3" of counter material around the bowl so it would be impossible to center it in the cabinet. In your case, having the 3" (or better) 4" to the right would push the sink over the cabinet wall to the left in a 15". An 18" might be doable but you should measure out that space next to a wall or deep appliance and see how it comfortable it is to use. I tried it in one of our early kitchen layouts and found that I would need an elbow pad to use the sink. :)

IÂm sorry, I didnÂt realize your seating was at the end of that L facing the fridge wall. I thought it was some combination of the two overhangs with just curved edges.

Don't be sorry about anything! I so appreciate the feedback. Would a 12" round sink work in a 15" cab? Especially since I"d have the 30" counter space next to it?

A 15" cabinet is only 13 1/2" inside, and you need room for installing, so maybe a 12" sink would fit. I have our prep sink on the corner of our island so it can be used from 2 sides, which others here have done, too, so it depends on how it works with the rest of your layout whether having it on the end of a run is OK or not, I think. I would actually be more worried about a sink that was right up to a wall or fridge, because of no elbow room, as well as no room to set things. (Maybe this comes under 'different things bother different people.') And in this last one, the ovens are not convenient to the 'baking area.' A seemingly unavoidable rule of kitchen designing...Fix one thing and foul up another! ;-)

I agree that the staggered seating would be a problem...People would be back to back or at least one person would look at the other's back. You also want to make sure any seating doesn't interfere with the path to the fridge.

There is more work ahead, but you'll get there.

Has your architect proposed any ideas?

If you are talking about the Blanco or Ticor round sinks, the outside dimensions are roughly 15" (IIRC) and I wouldnÂt go any smaller than that. I compared the specs to my salad spinner and larger colander and they just fit. I use them a lot and a big reason for wanting a prep sink is so that I no longer have to clear dirty dishes before setting them in the sink. A prep sink would be almost useless to me if I couldn't use it for those 2 things.

Is moving the wall oven an option? No matter what, youÂll need 3-4" of counter material to the right of that sink, which will push it to the left. Look up the specs on the sink you want, cut out a piece of paper with both the interior and exterior dimensions, lay it on a counter in a spot similar to that with 4" of counter on all sides and see how it works.

I would be using the main sink for most cooking. The "prep" sink (aka: small round) would be for just rinsing while baking. In my last layout I have 5' of counterspace to the left of my cooktop and 2' on the other. That'll be plenty I think.
rhome... I"m not sure if you mean my layout with the double ovens won't work or the one backinthesaddle posted. Typically, I put something in the oven and check it once or twice. Then take it out. I mess with my cooking more at the cooktop. I thought that with it at the end I'd put in in, lay it on the 30" counterspace when I take it out, then right to table. Can you tell me what you feel will be the issue? This is why I'm not posting what I tweaked yet. It didn't involve appliance placement but just the curve of the island. I don't want to keep posting messed up layouts.

I like where you have the ovens down by the Fr Door wall...It was in backinthesaddle's version that I didn't like the oven location.

You have to give up on the 15" cabinet because no useful sink will fit and give the amount of counter material to the right that it needs to be supported correctly. An 18" cabinet is a possibility but then your baking center shrinks.

IÂd much rather have a nice expanse to prep and a sink thatÂs useful for more than just washing hands but walk a few steps to the oven. Like Rhome said though, different strokes for different folks and after eliminating what wonÂt actually work, you need to go with what feels right for you.

I hope this isn't sounding like an argument, because I really don't mean it that way...But if she's not using it for draining and filling pots and scrubbing veggies, like most of us use prep sinks for, but only for hand washing, rinsing a wash rag to wipe down the counter, and maybe getting a shot of water to add to a baking recipe, I think she can do with a bar sink, which come pretty small.

I agree that with a larger sink we'd run into issues with counter workspace. Then isn't there the possibility of putting the oven undercounter and the Advantium above?

OK...I'm looking at this again. Is 30" enough for your baking area? Get a mixer in there and there's not much room left. I have a 30" counter for our toaster oven. I don't think I'd want to try to bake there. Although it'd be a good landing/staging area for the Advantium.

Good point about the 30" with my mixer. I just used my mixer on a 4' run and with the ingredients etc... I agree that 30" will be tight. OK then... go back to the oven under the counter and the Advantium installed above like at microwave height. Include a prep sink... 12" -15" size and increase length of prep counter. I'll be back!!

I think I may have it down. I'm going to post the layout in a new thread so it won't be as confusing to all to have to read through everything else. THANK YOU!!

IÂm not trying to argue either, and I may not be explaining this right, but even a 12" sink turns into a minimum of 15" when you factor in the edge of the counter that needs to surround it. If you can slide a smaller sink all the way to the left, itÂs a non-issue but a 15" cabinet leaves no wiggle room. Also, we will have our prep sink up against a wall and I found it was uncomfortable to use in less than a 21" cabinet. Like I said though, I have specific jobs that I need it to handle but if it were just for hand washing, I can see that working. If I sound rabid, itÂs because the prep sink placement and my hope to have a WO cabinet to house the MW and for storage was an obsession for months. Under the advice here and my own common sense, I gave up the cabinet, made room for the sink and my kitchen fell into place.

That said, I think the UC oven is the perfect solution. :)

Oh, just so you know, my involvement on this thread has made me reconsider my own layout and I promised my husband the last one was final. LOL

I was adamant that I didnÂt want the main sink in the peninsula but now IÂm considering swapping that and the prep area to make room for a tall cabinet to house the MW.

It's never over is it!

It isnÂt and we reached the DIY point of no return last weekend. I might be able to pull this change off without needing a divorce lawyer but part of having the sink/DW put in a new location for phase 1 is that IÂd have two of each until we tackled phase 3.

Now I have to decide if that cabinet is more important than a large sink and DW for who-knows-how-many months.

I've been without kitchen sink and DW for close to 6 months now. It is do-able if it gets you to your ultimate goal.

Fortunately Hubby installed a laundry sink about a month into the project. (It was needed for there, too.) That's made it more bearable.