So, Marcolo finally visits an architect....

11 years ago

You may remember my 100-post thread which proved it is not actually possible to remodel my kitchen using only three dimensions.

Foolishly following the advice of johnliu, I went to an architect. The task at hand is to come up with a bid package detailed enough to tell me what ballpark I'm going to come in at (I already have a pretty good idea) without paying an architect to go all the way and spec insulation material.

So right now, we're at conceptual drawings called "schemes." I think we're up to scheme 11. Or else that's where we stopped counting. All the schemes have really good ideas, but my kitchen is located in another space-time continuum where a disembodied voice responds to every idea saying, "You can't, because...."

Anyway, I'm offering up a couple of the schemes for your perusal, amusement or consternation, take your pick.

I'm not worried about the DW being in the wrong place. I know where it goes. I'm just trying to choose the direction to move in.

So, the requirements include:

- A vintage-y look. The architect pointed out that huge banks of cabs do not help in this regard. But, they are functional.

- No moving any walls except the back exterior wall (other than bringing the side wall out to meet it), and not changing any openings into other rooms

- There's a weird walkout from the basement that actually comes up through the kitchen under my current cooktop. You can see pics on the other thread. Basically that either has to be a dead cabinet (it can have a top drawer), or I have to spend tons of money to move the walkout.

The first pic is the current layout.

The second is the most modern and open. It incorporates a mudroom with a cool arched tiny opening that lets you see the light from the back doorway window but allows you to put either a bench or cabinet below it. Mostly we need this function for recycling.

The third is the coolest looking so far. Two big '20s style arches intersect, and the cooking area is nicely removed and defensible. Problem is the walkout would have to move to put a sink there, plus dish storage and dishwasher and fridge all kind of crowd the sink.

Again, these are just directions, and I'm just trying to figure out which one to pick.

Original layout

This is Scheme 8.

This is Scheme 10.

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Comments (147)

lavender_lass
11 years ago
I am by no means an expert...but your architect is designing an addition to your house...without looking at the 'outside forms'? Does that mean your architect doesn't have a plan as to how exactly this addition will work with the rest of your house?

Wouldn't it be a better idea to know how far you can build out and what roof lines will work with the existing house...and then determine what will fit and what will not? I've had so many variations of my plan, mainly due to roof line problems. Again, not an expert, but I can tell you they can be a pain in the derriere! LOL
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
We already know all that, LL. I just mean the interior may need to be tweaked due to exterior issues.
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marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
So here are some 3D views created with my lame skills using my lame software. But it gives an idea.

It may all not work for want of a few inches, so I'm not going to get too effusive about it yet.
francoise47
11 years ago
Marcolo -- I'm so sad I can't see your 3-D images through photobucket!
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
There is nothing wrong with Photobucket. This site has become almost completely unusable.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
These are TINY files--45K! And the forum still won't let me post from PB.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
Almost the same view
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
Toward the range.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
This wall of cabs or pantry or fridge wouldn't be as monolithic as it looks here.
pawa
11 years ago
That's weird. I post everything to Flickr and then click "Share" > Grab HTML code and then just cut-and-paste it in to the text box here. I'm able to post multiple photos that way.

The stuff I cut-and-paste looks like this (I removed some of the angle brackets so that the picture wouldn't actually show up):

a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/79656359@N07/7230916090/"; title="another-gross-cast-iron by pawa8, on Flickr" img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7243/7230916090_21ab630eb5.jpg"; width="500" height="333" alt="another-gross-cast-iron"

I don't have many comments on your kitchen except "it looks really nice!" and "how does the work triangle with the island in the middle?" and "I saw another nook with an arch where the ceiling drywall was actually arched too and it looked cool"
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
Can't say I'm thrilled with the North-South clearances with the island in there. Hmm.
palimpsest
11 years ago
How wide is the island now?

Make it narrower...mine is 19" and was added more for the drawers underneath and a boundary definer, but it is still very functional.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
Well, I did want to use it as a place to put either an undercounter oven or microwave, hence the desire to keep it to two feet at minimum. I can't actually get such great accuracy from the software, so I'm hoping there's a bit more wiggle room than the drawing shows.
palimpsest
11 years ago
Ah, it looked wider than two feet to me.
blfenton
11 years ago
What are your counter-to-counter clearances? My old eyes can't read the itty-bitty numbers on the plan. Sorry.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
This is from the drawing program, so, as I said, they may not be quite this tight, but:

Range to island: 40"
Wall (by the back door) to island: 42"
Sink to island: 51"
Island to fridge/pantry wall: 53"

What bothers me most is the wall to island measurement. That's a main traffic pathway.
blfenton
11 years ago
Set up some chairs (using the backs because they are often about counter height) against a wall 42" away and see how it works.

You say it's a main traffic pathway - will more than one person be walking in it at a time? will two people be walking it against each other and if so how often? when you walk it will you be carrying groceries, briefcases, backpacks? where are you walking to and from?

A hallway is normally only 36" wide and in your floorplan you only have one wall and the other side is open space so it shouldn't feel closed in.

The 51" and the 53" I'd consider lengthening the island so that those measurements become 48". Counter wise you gain another 8" of space. The only concern is if aesthetically it then looks too long and narrow or if you wind up with pinch points that I'm not seeing.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
That door is where we come in from the garage, so yes, two people and sometimes more, groceries, all that. Plus I have to leave some milling about space.

I'm not that crazy about prepping on an island except for certain specific objects. I like being in a corner, where I can access items from cupboards in front of me and reach a lot of counterspace in both directions without moving. Here the island primarily services other purposes, such as a place to put an oven or MW, and to shield the range. If this plan otherwise works, I could possibly do without an island there.
lavender_lass
11 years ago
Marcolo- Glad you know what you're doing with the roof lines.

I can't see some of your pictures, but the ones I can see, look great! The banquette, sink and fridge walls are amazing. And, 42" should be plenty of room between the island and wall, without stools.

My only comment (and again, I'm no expert) is...do you think the windows on each side of the range are a little too wide, for a vintage kitchen? The nook area, the window over the sink, and the fridge/pantry...all seem very vintage, but the range picture looks more contemporary. Maybe narrower windows and a little more upper cabinet space?

Also...have you thought about Picasa? I used to have Photobucket and it was a lot more difficult to use. It started getting a bit 'glitchy' (not a computer person) so I tried Picasa and it's just copy and paste. No codes to change or anything else...and it lets you post whatever size you want.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
Funny, I thought the same thing, how the range between two windows seems a bit contemporary. However, I think I've simply drawn the windows too large--the one to the right of the range is original to the kitchen, and it does come down to the countertop, so the size is right for the space. Plus I will try to focus on doing a range hood that doesn't look too modern--maybe a barrel hood in white, or a tile hood, maybe.
rosie
11 years ago
It'll be interesting seeing the windows drawn in actual scale. A tiled hood could be fantastic, with adequate wall space. If you have neighbors close over there, have you given thought to raising the sills, like the other window, for a feeling of more enclosure? Or would that be too much enclosure? (I just remembered that commercial with a man who liked to water with no shirt on and chat at his neighbor in her kitchen, who solved her "view" problem by moving the sill up to block everything below his neck. :)

Since the back door is from a porch, I'd probably hang it to swing out in any case, eliminating most of your potential clog there. I notice a couple of the drawings investigate that.
lavender_lass
11 years ago
I tried finding a vintage 20's picture, but no luck...so this is not exactly the style, but I think the valances would soften the look (even with larger windows) without causing a fire hazard!
{{gwi:1434537}}From Farmhouse plans
rosie
11 years ago
My window casements ended up snugged right up against my wood hood, or vice versa, a real glitch for curtains. I love what curtains and a breeze do for an otherwise rigid room, (and its cook), so this was a real concern.

I found, however, that as long as I hang the curtains inside the casements, even with the glass open and a breeze blowing they simply cannot get over the stove. The sides of the hood would be something of a second barrier if they ever got that far, but they don't.

Actually, having experienced the limitations of what a breeze does with them here, I now realize I could hang them over the casements and use pullbacks secured to the wall to hold them fairly in place when they're open. I prefer not to, belt and suspender reasoning, and also because I like them hung inside, but I could also use weights, or even tacks, on the lower outside corners to keep those corners from blowing around.

Or, like that picture someone posted of a very individualistic kitchen, I could simply chop a foot or two off the panels that are right by the stove. But I won't. :)
theresse
11 years ago
SO excited for you! I love all these great ideas and inspiration pictures. You are so lucky to be able to do all this...I am droooooling here! Can't wait to see more!
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
theresse, thanks for your good thoughts. Wish me luck. I hope I'll be lucky enough to do all this--this whole exercise is designed to get me some real estimates.

I'm probably just going to use the same type of window treatments I have now--gathered valances on a rod with white, wide (3") blinds behind them. It's kind of hilarious to hear people compliment them when they see them. That was the universal kitchen window treatment when I was a kid; it was what everybody used in their kitchens for decades, with the very popular variation being cafe curtains in addition to the valance.

Over the sink, I'm not doing a pendant. My mother's wooden parrot goes there, perched on its circular hoop, right where it sits in my current kitchen. When I was little, she and all of her sisters had the same exact parrot sitting on a hoop over the sink window, all the way up until about the mid '70s. The one I have now wasn't the original; she picked it up somewhere because she missed hers, and hung it on her porch. I used to think it was a '40s thing, but recently found an advertisement from the '20s showing a parrot right there, in front of a window where he belongs. Absolutely nothing in the world says "kitchen" to me like a wooden parrot.
BalTra
11 years ago
this is fun to watch, marcolo.

I love the nook with arch - brilliant and I hope it works!

If you can 'skin' the icebox, what a cool deal that would be.

And the parrot . .
parrot = kitchen
hee!
rhome410
11 years ago
We have 42" hallways...where laundry baskets are carried, and people are always passing each other. Not a problem here. I'm with blfenton on the possibility of lengthening the island to tighten up the other aisles a bit.
lavender_lass
11 years ago
Marcolo- Great parrot! My mom has one very similar, but it's stained glass, with a wooden hoop. She's been trying to figure out where to hang it, in her new home...so I'll tell her, in the kitchen :)
lavender_lass
11 years ago
Marcolo- Saw this and thought of you! LOL

I like the arch they added and the island. Since you have the very cool banquette, you don't need the stools...but I thought I'd show this to you, in case you hadn't seen it yet. {{!gwi}}From 1920s kitchen project

And here's the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: 1920's kitchen remodel
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
Too funny, LL. If the banquette doesn't work in the nook, I may be back to a really big arch like that one, though I think mine would be flatter.

I am highly miffed this person swiped my idea of undercabinet shelving, as well.
francoise47
11 years ago
Hi Marcolo,

Hope all is going well with your architect and kitchen plans.

I saw this kitchen on Houzz and thought of you because of the old fashioned icebox treatment and the arch. (Otherwise, perhaps not a look you are going for.)

[Traditional Kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Dallas Architect Domiteaux + Baggett Architects, PLLC

[Traditional Kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Dallas Architect Domiteaux + Baggett Architects, PLLC

The July/August House Beautiful also has a kitchen with an icebox treatment for the fridge. I can't cut and past a picture. But it is a lovely (albeit white) beach cottage designed by Erin Martin. Worth a look.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
francoise, those pics are hugely, hugely helpful. Thanks so much! What a great kitchen, for only 3x my budget, I'm sure.

Someone asked in another thread about my mood board, but I can't find that post, so I might as well reply here. I'll be posting about individual elements but I'm not I'll put together a whole board. That's because I know what I want to do, and its success is really going to depend in part on very fine variations in paint color that are pretty much impossible to judge on a monitor. And also because trying to get actual samples is like pulling teeth.

Right now the architect is working on the bid package. It isn't all pretties; we've been worrying about making sure the foundation is right for my soil type and existing foundation, getting surveyed, that kind of thing.
rosie
11 years ago
Let's see. There's your mom's parrot and gathered valences and blinds, and? We'll be waiting for a chance to admire the other elements. :)
plllog
11 years ago
Marcolo,

I saw your samples rant and looked here... I'm confused. Do you have a layout? Or is it that you feel confident gathering samples before that's done? (It occurs to me that maybe people don't all do the same order as I. :) )

I really like the way the hood in the kitchen Francoise posted works with the windows. You can hardly see the duct, and it just kind of floats there on its hangers. It's really hard working a hood in front of windows so it looks right, and I think this one is brilliant.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
I have a rough layout. The architect is working on drawings to get bids. The process of picking materials is such a long one (see rant) I wanted to start it right away. If I do the expansion I won't have a range in front of a window anymore.

I agree, this one is well done. They decided the range "unit" would be the one honestly modern element in the whole kitchen.
lavender_lass
11 years ago
I like the 'ice box' and the green cabinets...but that hood is blocking an absolutely lovely window! I couldn't do it...I would have swapped the sink and range locations.
deedles
11 years ago
I haven't read everything and some pics are missing but this latest (I think) plan with the nook off to the side is adorable. That'd be the bee's knees! It's obvious that your parrot wants a nook.
Love that 20's stuff and I can't wait to see what you finally settle on.
Circus Peanut
11 years ago
Marcolo, it's shaping up really beautifully. Under no circumstances should you give up the nook.

What 3-D software are you using? I'm trying to learn Sketchup/Trimble and it's kicking my a$$.
plllog
11 years ago
Oh, how odd! Today I can see your plan and elevations but when I was here before they didn't show up.

Your plan looks like a real kitchen (a good thing!) and the nook is a very clever solution in your quest for an eat-in kitchen.

I didn't post to your samples thread because I never had that issue. Do you know a designer who'd be willing to ask for your samples in exchange for a good Italian dinner? Sometimes trade have much better success getting samples.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
It turns out, as with everything in my house, that my dreams are denied by six inches. Due to code changes, I can't have the nook where I want, because I'm no longer allowed to put a wall back up that was there when the house was built--I have to move it back far enough to make the nook impossible.

My architect, however, looked at that fact and said, screw it. She proposes pushing back the house to make room for the nook because she loves it. She also added a mudroom behind the nook, which sounds purely functional but if I ever get the damn drawings, I'll show you is beyond charming.

No hopes up: this could cost too much to do. But it is a cute plan. If lubricated with enough liquor, I might be persuaded to post my own amateurish, software-challenged, crappy-program mockups. The colors are hilariously off, random walls and cabinets crash into each other--but the plan is damn cute.
lavender_lass
11 years ago
Do what you must...but we want to see the 'damn cute' plan! :)
oldbat2be
11 years ago
And the mudroom too, please!

What does 'pushing back the house' mean - new foundation or extending new foundation (or hopefully, neither)? We did a lot during our renovation (including new foundation, new front steps, new front door, new windows, moving interior walls, lots of drywall, insulation, new wood floors, etc., etc.). I loved our builder, who worked on a cost plus 15% for himself. We're on the North Shore but I know he does work in Boston too (I think you are there?). I have all the receipts so could give you names if you would care to and are comfortable going directly to the (sub) contractors (after, of course, requesting and checking recent references).
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
"Pushing back the house" does indeed mean new foundation work. The architect changed the shape a bit to accommodate a small mudroom area. I wouldn't attempt to GC an actual addition myself--too scary. Plus, since I work at home I'd have to figure out how onsite I really want to be. I have no problem working through most of the trades once the structure is built and opened into the house; I did that before with a bathroom reno right across the hall from my office. But trying to sit at my computer while the back of my house is being ripped off seems a bit much. I may be paying relatives a visit until that part is done.
plllog
11 years ago
Hm... I know Massachusetts planning is Byzantine and capricious, but is getting a code variance a possibility at all? It would seem to me that putting back up a wall that was originally there would be a good reason.

Where I live is much more open from what I gather. My neighbors wanted to use the old code for their remodel which would put them two feet closer than allowed to their own selves and they just needed the neighbors to sign off on it.

Still, before moving the whole house, it might be something to think about. Though the adorable mudroom might be nice. Especially if it would also solve the walkout problem. :)
lavender_lass
11 years ago
(Foot tapping, somewhat impatiently)

Still waiting for the 'damn cute' plan...and that adorable mudroom :)
francoise47
11 years ago
I hope you don't have to give up on the little breakfast nook!

I just found this photo of a nook on the website of a favorite architect,
Rehkamp Larson from Minnesota. I love the arched transom:

Here is a link that might be useful: Lake Rose Cottage in Minnetonka, Minnesota
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
Actually, I'm overselling the mudroom. It's not even a separate room. The cool part is the architect used a mudroom space to balance out that entire wall, so now the nook sits nestled between two other arches. Well, if she ever sends me the plan, it will. I am too tired to follow up, occupied with an unplanted tree sitting in my 93 degree yard waiting for the fence guy, next to a garage with no door waiting for "Mr." Magoo's Old Timey Garage Door Service.
marcolo
Original Author
11 years ago
So, after three and a half weeks since our last meeting, my architect sends...entirely the wrong plan.

I have sent an email to see if I am mistaken about something.

Otherwise, Monday's forecast calls for thunder and lightening. No kidding.
angie_diy
11 years ago
Well, there weren't many posts left in this thread anyway...

... but seriously, sorry to hear that. The "joys" of remodeling start long before the first hammer is swung.
lavender_lass
11 years ago
First the samples and now the plan...maybe the thunder and lightening will clear the air and you'll have better luck, next week! Hopefully your fence, tree and garage door situation will improve, too.

Didn't you say you had a little sketch you could post? At this point, we don't need anything fancy...but I'd like to see how the mudroom balances the nook. You know I'm a 1920s fan too, so your kitchen is one of my favorites on the forum :)