AFCI circuit breaker keeps tripping - wiring diagram enclosed!

17 years ago

Can anybody give me some pointers?

I have a Siemens AFCI circuit breaker that keeps tripping whenever I turn anything on in an outlet.

I have tested if the cause may be the appliance, but the appliance always functions just fine on the other outlets.

Here is a diagram of the wiring from what I can see -

{{!gwi}}
Outlet 1 keeps tripping the AFCI circuit breaker when I plug anything into it and turn it on.

But Outlet 1's power source is ANOTHER circuit breaker. This circuit breaker is dedicated to Outlet 1.

The AFCI's power passes thru Outlet 1's box to supply the subsequent outlets.

I wonder if the problem lies in the fact that Outlet 1 utilizes the neutral wire of the AFCI supplied outlets. Can any experts out there help with this?

Thanks in advance everybody.

This is a new wiring job, the original contractor is no longer on the job. He claimed the GFCI circuit breaker is too sensitive and never got around to fixing it before disappearing. So I am stuck with an outlet that can't be used because it causes tripping.

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Comments (13)

spencer_electrician
17 years ago
What you got is a multi-wire circuit. One neutral is used to carry the neutral current of 2 hots that are out of phase. AFCI's do not work that way on multiwire circuits. One doesn't recognize where the extra current is going. What you need in that scenario is a double pole afci breaker which is very rare and expensive. Another option would be if the 1st outlet doesn't actually have a heavy load on it, you could pigtail both the red and the black wires to the single afci breaker. That would just put all the receptacles on one circuit.
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petey_racer
17 years ago
What Spence said is correct. Except two-pole BR series AFCI breakers are not that rare and no more expensive than two single poles.
What might make it expensive is if you didn't need the second breaker.
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I am just borrowing terms from them Please don't; it confuses things when you use nonstandard terms. What you mean by breaker handles tied That means the handles are mechanically joined, so they can't operate separately. If one trips, the other opens. If one is shut off, the other is too. Thus, they work like a double-pole breaker, which may also be used. I have kept his weird labelling scheme for now. What you did was OK except that the ground should be connected to the box (if it's metallic). You also could have fitted a properly sized double pole breaker to the panel, and connected the hots to it. You'd also have needed to pigtail the neutrals so removing one of the recepts wouldn't break it. Am I going to find other surprises in my wiring Probably. Almost every house I've ever lived in has had some (usually unpleasant) wiring surprises. Sometimes it's pros, but I suspect that more often it's DIYs. DIY wiring has been around for a long time, and too many DIYers don't learn code or proper techniques before plowing ahead.
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Typically, you would want anything on 220v on a double pole breaker. Those are the double wide ones with a bar connecting the 2 switches. From you description, it sounds like someone was trying to save space and use tandem breakers (single wide with 2 unconnected switches.) The problem with that is that the double pole breaker will trip both sides at once if there is a problem in either leg. Using 2 of these tandem breakers means that one leg can trip and leave the other live. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd guess the PV contractor moved 1 leg of your pump wiring up a slot and accidentally put it on the same phase as the other leg. There should be a diagram on your panel showing which slots are on what phase. The 2 for your pump need to be on opposite phases. Either way, it sounds like your original setup could use some improvements to bring it up to modern standards. I'd call an electrician and get a professional opinion.
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Same issue here, only my breaker box is 25' from the door of my crawlspace and I got tired of going under there and quit for today. Just left the light on while the switch says off. I am sure I wired the new light the same as the old one was wired. It's the end of a 3 fixture string. There are 2 black, a white, a grey, and a ground. The 2 blacks were with the black on the fixture. The white and grey were with the white of the fixture. The ground to the ground. I mean, that's simple, right? How could I have messed that up? Now the switch is in the off position and the light is on. Turn it off and trip the breaker. Keep the switch at off and reset the breaker and it trips immediately. I plan to undo and redo it tomorrow, but I don't fathom any new result. Any thoughts and/or advice? I am not a professional but I do reviews for Kichler so I've installed and/or replaced more ceiling fixtures than I can count and thus has never happened before. Thanks- Karen
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Thanks @Ronnatalie. I'm not screwing around and constantly flipping the breaker, but thanks for the concern. Update: I did some more tests and thought i isolated the short at the outlet which I think is first on the circuit. I replaced the outlet and tried and the breaker stayed on. But then all of a sudden when I was putting things back together (stuffing boxes and replacing cover plates), the circuit tripped again. I figured I must have a wire exposed and grounding or something but after re-disassembling everything I saw no issues and the breaker still wouldn't stay on. So I gave up. I think i'm just going to call an electrician, but I wanted to see if anyone has any last minute thoughts based on the recent experience...
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DavidR
17 years ago
From Square D :

"Single-pole AFCIs cannot protect circuits in which the neutral (grounded circuit) conductor is shared or mixed. The reason for this is that current flowing out and returning is monitored for the presence of arcing faults."

This is similar to the way GFIs work.

So you have it right; the problem is caused by the shared neutral.
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lilacious_in_nyc
Original Author
17 years ago
To my responders -
Thank you for clarifying the problem.

Could the problem also be rectified by removing the AFCI and installing a standard circuit breaker instead? Would the shared neutral continue to present a problem in such a setup?
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petey_racer
17 years ago
A standard two-pole breaker will work fine. Just be sure you are not required to use AFCI's. In my part of NYS we are not.
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Ron Natalie
17 years ago
...unless you have a square D panel. Square D doesn't make two pole AFCI's.
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petey_racer
17 years ago
Ron, if that was directed to me by "standard" I mean non-AFCI breaker.

His question was could he remove the AFCI and install a standard breaker.

In fact, a two-pole is not required in this instance (multi-wire circuit). It is simply suggested.
Two single-pole breakers would work as well.
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lilacious_in_nyc
Original Author
17 years ago
Hmm, I will look into AFCI requirements in the city.
It is my preference to keep the AFCI setup, but that leaves me with two options:
1) Spend $400 bucks on a CutlerHammer 2 pole AFCI (any other suggestions for makes?).
2) Pull a 4 wire electrical cable thru the existing cable's pathway to provide an independent neutral to Outlet 1. There are two 90 degree turns to the service panel which is about 15' away from Outlet 1. It's possible it will be a clean pull without snags...mebbe.

By the way, my queries should be referred to as "her" questions.
Thanks folks!
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petey_racer
17 years ago
$400??? Try $100. As long as your panel accepts BR style breakers.

Here is a link that might be useful: BR220AF
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Ron Natalie
17 years ago
Petey, I was answering spences comment about the availability of 2-pole AFCI breakers.
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petey_racer
17 years ago
Ok, sorry.
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lilacious_in_nyc
Original Author
17 years ago
Hey Petey Racer, Wow, thanks for the link, it really really helps.
Should I be concerned about lack of brand name when it comes to circuit breakers?
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lilacious_in_nyc
Original Author
17 years ago
Follow-up to BR link from Petey Racer-

How can I determine that my service panel will accept the BR type circuit breaker?
The current breakers in place as outlined in the diagram are both Siemens, type QAF and QP. The service panel itself is a Siemens product.
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AFCI circuit breaker keeps tripping - wiring diagram enclosed!

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AFCI circuit breaker keeps tripping - wiring diagram enclosed!

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