This is an opportunity to teach A_ a good lesson about eavesdropping AND lying. In our situation, SD was going back to BM and fibbing about what was going on in our house. We all got together, then SD was asked about certain things she had told her mom and she was called on it. In our case, it wasn't too successful long term because I think BM wants to hear the lies because it supports her position that SD is just miserable here. In your situation, BM seems more reasonable and if A_ were called out in front of her, he would know that in the future, the two of you are going to communicate so he might as well not start playing that game and that there are consequences to eavesdropping. If you let it be, it could also be the beginning of a bad relationship with BM if she thinks you are talking about her or telling her son things she doesn't want him to know. If I were the mom, it would affect the trust and for that reason, I think you should clear it up between you and her.

I'm with Ima on this --

While I think you're right, and BM probably does need someone to be mad at, just imagine the different variations that could be going through her head. The most charitable interpretation is that you showed very poor judgement in discussing this with A_, but it would be very easy for her to assume you intended to cause harm, that you took pleasure in her distress, that you wanted to tarnish her in A_'s eyes -- any number of nasty thoughts. And under the circumstances, they'de be reasonable!

I think A_ does need to come clean on this. It would be best if you could talk to him, explain the damage and why his 'it seemed like a very small distortion' wasn't really so small. Then get A_ to confess to his mom and explain that he overheard you talking - that you didn't tell. Eavesdropping is a pretty small crime, and saying you told him is more of a distortion than an outright lie -- It shouldn't be too hard for him to come clean, and it will provide a very teachable moment for improving his subtle social skills and ethics, with an "I'm proud of you for telling the truth" at the end.

Then you get to apologize to BM for not assuring A_ didn't overhear and for the pain that oversight caused her, and to use this as an example for how open communication and clearing the air are so vitally important.

And ouch! I know how much this kind of thing hurts, having been in a similar position myself a time or two...

I agree with imaommy and sweeby, I would tell BM that A overheard you and DH talking. and i would also tell A that when one accidentally overhears soemthing it does not mean they need to immdiatelly tell others and if he eavesdropped on purpose, it is not very nice. not a crime but still not too nice. I wouldn't just let it go. hopefully BM will believe you and you'll clear the air.

I think adults should be very careful about discussing certain issues in earshot of children. Pesonal issues, money issues, etc. This was a conversation in the kitchen. In the event of a senstive conservation in the kitchen it is on the speakers to keep an eye out for others. Some SMs here talk about how their bedroom should be private -- the kitchn is not so private. A may have felt he wasnt lying -- that he heard this from Ceph.

I dont think there will be any long term damage from this, but lets not put all the blame on A. Its unfortunate and a learning experience for all.

Good point, kkny. A___ may have actually used the phrase "I heard it from Ceph" when he told his mom, which technically isn't a lie b/c he did 'hear' it 'from' Ceph. (He just didn't mention the eavesdropping part!) Then it wasn't an irrational leap for BM to assume that meant Ceph TOLD him directly.

Anyway, Ceph, I agree you should discuss it with BM in the nicest way possible, no self-defense required. More like a friendly "girl-to-girl" warning that he's taken to eavesdropping lately so she should be extra aware. And lest she get offended like you're "telling her how it is" like she doesn't already know, you could phrase it more like a question, with the assumption that as his mother she MUST already know that he's picked up this habit... Like: "Oh gosh, I am so embarrassed he overheard that, and sorry you thought I *meant* to tell him... I guess with this eavesdropping thing he's doing lately, we should all be a little more careful. When do you think he started doing that? How do you think we all should handle it?"

I forget, how old is A? I think that parents have a reasonbility to conduct private conversations in private. Someone sneaking up to you by the kitchen? How do we distinguish bewteen conversations overheard vs. eavesdropping? Again, I think Ceph is a nice person, but I dont agree with chastising A for repeating a conversation he overheard. It is not like he listened in a phone call or hid in a bathtub. No one did anything on purpose, but every adult has responsiblities too.

"but I dont agree with chastising A for repeating a conversation he overheard. "

A_ is a boy with severe ADHD which generally includes social skills deficits, so he needs more teaching in those areas than the average child. Please note I said "teaching" -- and that's exactly what I meant. Not "scolding" and certainly not "punishment". He needs to be told, probably very explicitly, why his actions were inappropriate, how they caused damage, and what he should do next time. The whole issue needs to be expolored together - eavesdropping, why the information he heard was sensitive, how his Mom may have felt when he asked her about it, how Mom may have felt towards Ceph when he said she told him. Again, A_'s actions were only mildly wrong. But they caused pain and shouldn't have happened.

I'm not suggesting he be shamed, and to my way of thinking, offering a stand-up apology is nothing shameful. In fact, it's something to be proud of, because it takes courage and shows character and caring. (My son will INSIST on apologizing when he does something like this because we've taught him it's the way to make things right again. And after he's apologized, he feels really good for having done it, and for having earned the forgiveness and respect of the other person.)

Thanks for your responses, everyone!

KK: A__'s 9.

I'll be talking to BM tomorrow, so I'll probably just mention something like "Sorry A__ heard DH and I talking about your situation. We didn't realize he was eavesdropping and certainly didn't mean to cause trouble for you" and hopefully it smooths over.

I really do feel for BM in the trouble she's having...
She's dealing with some people who are treating her poorly, when they should be embracing her and showing her love. DH and I were talking about how difficult it must be, that it's good that she has her BF's support, and that the judgmental perceptions of some religious people are trouble... but all A__ took from it was that someone doesn't like his mom.
She might make me crazy sometimes, but she doesn't deserve the crap she's taking right now.

I still have issues with using the word eavesdrop. It covers a lot of ground - the word dictioneary includes everthing from listen, overheard, snoop, to tapping phones. I know you didnt mean to hurt anyone, but I was just say you didnt realize he was around the corner, and he overheard. And I think it is on you to take some responsibity for not being overheard. You seem to be ambivalent about that. YOur title -- I didnt do it -- seems to indicate otherwise -- but you do indicate you need to keep private conversaions private.

I think there is a difference between eavesdropping; sneakily standing right next to the door jam and poking out a head just enough to hear all that is said while you are believed to be in another room - and overhearing; just being in an adjacent room with no intent to overhear and doing so only because of the local.

By Ceph saying he has been doing this lately I'm guessing the first scenario is more how this played out. Be that the case, i completely agree with Sweeby - he needs to have the reasons why this isn't okay explained to him; the ripple effect his actions have on Ceph, his mom, his dad, their trust in him, and so on. Not punished, but explained. I'm sure Ceph has learned to hold these conversations elsewhere, but she shouldn't have to worry about eavesdropping ears, either.

I wonder if BM is upset that her private situation was discussed with you to begin with. although of course spouses discuss everything, she might not want her private info being discussed. maybe it does not even matter how A found it out, maybe the whole idea of you guys discussing her bothers her. if i would have problems in my family the last person i would want to know it would be SM (alhthough she is pretty nice and I do like her). But I don't think she is someone to be confidant of my private issues. now if X discusses me wiht SM in private, it is nothing I can do but I'd rather not know that i am a topic of their conversations. If X discuses me wiht XMIL it is a different story, that i don't mind. so i guess you could be a little more private when discuss something about Sm espcially wiht the kid in the house.

The mother is upset. I think even a hint of putting blame on A will not be productive. I think, I'm sorry, DH and I were discussing this, and we didnt realize A could hear us. To put the blame on the child, when an adult could have easily prevented a situtation is not fair, imho.

"I think even a hint of putting blame on A will not be productive."

I'm not suggesting A_ be blamed -- But doesn't he need to be taught that eavesdropping in a sneaky way is wrong, that repeating sensitive information he learned through eavesdropping is risky, and that implying that someone 'told him' when in fact he 'overheard them' is a distortion that's pretty close to lying?

Ceph certainly has a deft enough hand with A_ that she could communicate the lesson without unfairly blaming him. After all, A_'s actions did not appear malicious.

I guess in my household I consider the kitchen a public place and conversations there public. If I need to talk privately, the bedroom is a better spot. By telling As mother that the child was eavesdropping, it covers a wide range of behaivor. A is putting her behaivor in the best light at the expense of the child. Thats not like her, and its not right.

How about keeping it simple and tell her that it wasn't your intention for "A" to hear your conversation and that you didn't think he was around when the conversation occurred but obviously he was.

That isn't blaming the child or you.

I agree with June, but I still feel a discussion with A_ about respecting people's conversations is appropriate. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell when two people are having a private talk. Teaching him that when something appears private, no matter where it is, that we should not attempt to listen in is a valid lesson. If he did in fact say verbatim that Ceph told him vs. he overheard it shows that he knew what he was doing was wrong and didn't want to admit to it. There is a lesson to be learned here by all, and I don't think it wrong to teach it.

I think June has the best answer as far as how to approach mom. I also agree that A---- needs to understand that hiding out around corners and listening in to the conversations of others is not polite whether it's in a "public" place or not.

It would be rude to strain your ears to hear a conversation in a grocery store line that you are not part of. You may hear bits and pieces coincidentally but to intentionally LISTEN is just plain rude.

It's OK Ceph. When you have kids in the house they are going to pick up on things on occasion even if you go way out of your way to avoid it. As far as mom possibly being upset that you guys were discussing her at all....it is totally unrealistic to expect her to not come up in conversations when you are married to her Ex and helping to raise her child. If that's her issue she'll just have to get over it.

I seem to recall another thread where kkny reamed out another stepmother for interrupting a "private" converstation between a BD (her husband) and his daughter (her SD), which conversation took place at a graduation ceremony.
Be consistent, kkny. If a kitchen where adults are talking quietly is public space, how much more public space is a graduation ceremony where the speakers are using normal tones of voice?

I agree that A___ needs to have it explained why sneaking up and listening from around corners is not acceptable behaviour in ANY setting, and A___'s BM needs to be apprised of exactly how A___ came by his misinformation.

Colleen,

Interrupting is interrupting, whether it takes place privately or publicly, yes it was public when the SM purporterdly interrupted. As I said on that thread.

In my house, any one who wants can walk around public rooms -- there is a difference between sneaking around private areas v. public.

And how do you tell the difference?

And how did you "teach" your child the difference?

Psuedo -- I dont understand the question -- how do I tell the difference between public and private rooms? Private rooms are bedrooms and bathrooms and when I lived with my X, his study. Public rooms are kitchen, living dining, family room.

Sneaking is sneaking. It is possible to tell when a conversation is intended to be private, WHEREVER it is conducted (generally voices are quieter than usual speaking voices) and sneaking up and hiding behind the door to listen is NOT OK. Walking into the area and being obvious, alerting those conversing to one's presence so they can stop if they wish IS OK. From what Ceph says, it seems A___ was doing the former.
Often people hold conversations or do other things they wish to be private, in "public" places, thinking that they are unobserved. If a properly socialised person encounters such a situation, he or she either walks away or else makes it clear that the person/people are no longer unobserved.

So you and one of many friends are sitting talking over coffee in the kitchen about "an adult issue".... your DD is walking toward the kitchen stops to listen to your conversation.

Is she eavesdropping? or no its fine its her house its a public area she should hear all that goes on in public areas even if its a very adult comment.

Your DD never snuck up on you when you were doing whatever to "scare you"? you know BOO!

Ceph wasn't yelling at the top of her lungs.
And A___ who I bet is normally noisy has learned a new trick ... walk quietly and see what you can find out.

Kids are naturally nosy... not intending to be hurtful ...

Think back to when your DD was younger she never walked in on a conversation she shouldn't have heard? if you say "no never" I say you're lying.

Everyone has said something at one time or another their child should not have heard. If not you then a guest in your home or out in public.

or even your friend talking you see your DD and tell your friend hush and she continues ...

And how did you "teach" your child the difference?

and I assumed you knew what I was asking didn't think I would have to spell it out

Since you're pretending to be stupid.

How did you teach your child the difference between eavesdropping/sneaking and making it known she is entering the room ?

Psuedo,

I take it at as on me that private conversations be held somewhere other than the kitchen -- which is the heart of my house. My DD understands that -- and that at her age same principal applies.

I think children learn most effectively by example. If I go to her room, even if door is open, I knock. She understands the same applies to me.

I think Ceph is a nice person and cares about A, but more important she cares, or should care about her credibility. What if she tells A's mother that A was eavesdropping and then As mother talks to A, who says they were in the kitchen and I was in the hall. Puts a slightly different spin on it.

As my mother told me, if you cant keep a secret, dont expect any one else to. Putting the onus on A not to repeat kitchen conversation is not the right idea. IMHO. Now if he had been hiding in the closet while they discussed it, that would be different.

So what you're saying KKNY is:

- Hiding around a corner is OK, but hiding in a closet is not.

- And if you and a girlfriend were discussing something private in your home, you would insist that you take your coffee out of the public kitchen and move to the private bedroom to discuss it?

You've made some valid points about not 'blaming' A_, and about exercising care when having private discussions, but IMO, you've gone way too far out onto a limb defending them.

No, if I were having a private conversation in kitchen, I would take it on myself to check where others in house were. Its on me. And speak in a low voice.

Just as I am careful in office where I discuss confidential matters.

Sorry we see this differently -- but I still think Ceph is better off if she just states facts, she is truly sorry A overheard, it wont happen again. As to A repeating, btw, whether he does or doesnt, he still has to deal with it. Certain things kids are meant to hear. Thats on us.

Honestly, I see this as a chance to talk to A__ about gossipping. Because that is exactly what he did. It was not a situation that involved him or that he had first-hand knowledge of. So, along with talking to BM (I also agree that June has the best approach), talk to A__ about repeating what others say and how it can be hurtful because it may or may not be the truth and he may or may not relay it exactly how it was said.

I had to do this with my DS the week of Thanksgiving. He & my niece were having a conversation and he brought up something he had "heard". Well this thing is hurtful and can life-shattering to my niece. I didn't want to encourage him to lie (which is what my sister wanted me to do). But I also don't want him divulging information that can be hurtful to people. I asked him "Do you know this to be true?" he said "Yeah" and I said "How? Did you see it happen or know the other person?" he said "No, but GM told me" I said "Telling someone what someone else tells you is called gossipping and now you've hurt your cousin. That's why we don't tell people things that we don't know to be true". It worked for him.

I felt bad that my niece was hurt (just as you feel bad for A's BM), but, the reality is, my sister needs to come clean. I can't control what 2 pre-teens talk about. All I can do is skirt the truth and hope I do it long enough. But it's bound to come up again. I will not make my kid lie, though. And I told my sister that I will deal with it from almost any angle to give her time to come clean, but I will not ask him to lie just so my sister doesn't have to do the hard part. She's the adult here; not my DS.

What makes the difference between overhearing and eavesdropping is the INTENT for crying out. If the person is hanging out around corners intentionally trying to listen in to a conversation not attended for them to hear they ARE eavesdropping.

By KKNY's theory, if I walked past a neighbors appartment and they had their window down and I stopped to listen to a conversation they were having in their living room and then took the conversation and repeated it to other people in the complex....it WOULDN'T be eavesdropping because they should have EXPECTED me to be hiding under their window and held the conversation in a more "private" place. Baloney.

The intent was to listen in on a conversation that I had no business straining my ears to hear. I would have been EAVESDROPPING or SNOOPING or being NOSEY...anyway you want to put it.

Ceph, I hope the conversation with BM goes well and this quickly blows over.

I think Ashley has zeroed in on the essence of the issue: an opportunity to teach a lesson about 'hearsay', or 'gossip', as opposed to eavesdropping. In reading all the responses that go back & forth on trying to determine exactly what constitutes 'eavesdropping' or who should be blamed, I agree that it's a very ambiguous issue. We all, as fully grown adults, basically 'know' when we're straining to overhear something, and even if it's technically 'wrong', we all know we *sometimes* do it anyway. Or we *have* done it, at least once, even as fully-grown adults. So it's really hard to guarantee that you will be able to do anything to 100% fully prevent a kid from listening in... especially if you have a conversation where you know he's around and could possibly walk in at any second or perhaps overhear. So I agree that in Ceph's case, it wasn't really anyone's fault ---neither Ceph for not fully realizing at that moment how utterly fascinating & tantalizing adult discussions can be to a kid or A____ for being a curious kid--- but that adults should be a bit more careful, and kids should have it explained to them that they may at times overhear things out of context that they are best not to repeat because they can accidentally distort the truth and end up really hurting someone without meaning to. And that they wouldn't like it one little bit if the tables were turned and it happened to them!

Maybe make up a hypothetical scenario, using some humorously exaggerated details, wherein A_____ becomes the unfortunate victim of an unchecked rumor spread by mis-heard hearsay. Like for example: "A_____, let's say after I dropped you off one morning at school I *just so happened* to overhear some very cute girls saying 'A____ looks like such a STEAMBOAT in his red-and-white sweater!" And then what if I told some other kids, and soon everyone at school thought that? Then what if I much later found out that those girls had REALLY said "A_____ looks like such a DREAMBOAT in his red-and-white sweater!"? Wouldn't YOU prefer that I'd made sure I'd checked with the girls before I told a bunch of other people that you resemble a big, slow, square-ish BOAT?" So that he gets the point but in a non-harsh way and you both can giggle about it at the end.

lol I like youir hypothetical situations serenity.

I think it is part of maturity knowing when not to tell other people what you accidentally overhear or even if you eavesdropped. he is too young to understand that you do not need to repeat everything what you hear. it sounds to me (from other posts about A) that he might be having some problems wiht social situations and mature behavior. not every 9 years old is mature enough. so i guess one step is to be careful what you discuss in public places and the other teaching him what to do wiht indirectly obtained information. he does not know yet how to behave when he knows a secret.

kitchen is the least private place in anyone's house. in my immidiate and extended family kitchen is where everybody congregates at all times and everyone can hear everything.

we were all at my brothers house last night. I, DD, my brother, nephew and niece played boardgames (3 different games in a row lol our favorite passtime) on one side of the living room, my dad read magazine on a coach on the other side of the room. But my mom and SIL sat in the kitchen and literally whispered just some gossips about work, shopping, cooking, you name it.

they were very quiet. But I could hear every single word they were saying. Obviously nothing confidential but they were quiet. And I could still hear. Now my brother's house is small. if cephs house is as small it is to be expected that A could hear. My niece is 7 and I cannot guarantee that she would not repeat that mom and grandma said XYZ. nothing private but still...

Both I and DD and in fact almost everyone in my family has very loud voices so our whispers are like normal people's voices. haha so no secrets in the kitchen. hahahah

FD - I am the same way! No matter how I say anything, it's loud. I think it's the timbre of my voice. I get so tired of people telling me I'm loud. Like I haven't heard that before! Even when I whisper it is audible. It's a stigma I will never live down.

ashley I hear you. ha. sometimes people assume I am that loud because of my occupation, you know teacher's voice, but not really I had loud voice since i was a little girl. But my grandmother on dad's side was the loudest. she was something...We always talk like we are projecting. I understand that it annoys people. Plus it is too low for a small woman. DD is this skinny 20- year-old but she sounds like a male politician giving speeches during election campaign. hahah

I HAVE A LOUD VOICE TOO!!

Anyhow,
When I talked to BM today, I said "I just wanted to apologize for the other day. We didn't realize A__ was listening in our conversation and didn't mean to cause any trouble" I explained what DH and I were saying, and that we didn't "tell" A__, he just heard. It's all good now, she said she was upset about the situation and then was really worked up because A__ said we "told" him, but now that she realizes what happened, it's OK.
DH talked to A__ about repeating what you've heard to other people, and that people who listen in often hear things they don't want or need to hear.

So I think it's all good.
Thanks for your help!

I am glad it worked out, I know you love A and want to be fair. You should talk to him about why he "listens in" - that is a nicer more gentle phrase. Mayvbe he is insecure or worried. Reassurance can take a long tiem.

great. i am glad it worked out. smart move on your part!