Boy...this was a posting and a half to read but definitely shows some different ideas on what parents and teachers think about discipline in a class. All I can add is that each group of children and for that matter each child will react differently to different ways of handling a situations. I think group punishment is needed as a foregound to control an entire class who is out of control but not as a continual way of controling certain disruptive students. Once a teacher has the feel for who is causing the problem then that individual needs to be dealt with just as a parent when discovering which child broke the house rules or made the mistake. When in doubt everyone gets punished and it has to be explained that this is being done to avoid favorism. The child causing the problem should also be given a chance to come forward and appologize without punishment if they choose to with in a certain time frame after which a punish applies. If you gain the trust of a child and treat them like a real person 9 out of 10 children will respond. They want exactly what we want to be respected and noticed for our good acts. Children who act out have found it the only way to get attention and don't care anymore that it's negative attention just as long as someone is seeing them. I have four children with very different personalities. Each has their own way of getting attention when they feel they are not getting any...multiply that by how ever many and you have aclass full of children all trying to get one adults attention so they feel SEEN. It must be the hardest thing for a teacher to deal with everyday. It is as a parent to four, and because I have grown to know them so well I know what they are doing. When my 9 year old son who is easily bored starts to act like a clown I know he wants mom to spend sometime with him or he needs something to interesting to do while I am busy. When my 11 year old son talks my ear off I know he has had a day and a half and needs to download his feelings, when my 7 year old daughter gets clingy with me I know it's time to do an activity with just her and I, When my 2 year old is pulling at my shirt for something for the upteenth time I know it's her turn. It's not easy to figure out what each child needs individually but as a parent we have only a few children and need to take the time to know as a teacher wouldn't always have that time and has 30 students or more to get to know in under a year. That's when the group discipline needs to come into play and then be broken down to find out the individual needs within a short time frame. My suggestion is discuss it with the class in an open forum explaining the need for rules and the rewards of following them then stick to them and show your students that you respect them and they will respect you. That makes the difference in whether they will learn from you or ignore you.The best teachers I have meet have been strict with class ediquette but reward their students with respect and privelges of being a helper rather than give them material things as a reward.

The Other Side...I think we agree on this topic slightly more than you give credit...what I said was: "There is healthy bonding with your child that is less "child centered" and establishes more independent children" I think from the sounds of it you have formed a relatively healthy attachment to your kids while fostering independence at the same time. My post was really more directed toward unhealthy "spouse replacement" type attachments with children. Your example of letting a 4 month old cry until they vomited is interesting and debateable of course. It is easy to judge without all the info. From your description it sounds on the outset horrible, as it conjurs images of a child left to cry for hours in abusive neglect, however, without the full story I reserve my judgement. Is it possible the parent not adequately burp the baby and the baby vomited after less than 15 min of crying? The parent did go in and change them. It is possible that it was not as abusive as it sounds, but rather a very normal process every parent must go through to allow their infant an opportunity to learn to "self-soothe" in order to develop good sleep habits that last a lifetime? It sounds as if you have the one child? Regarding the 16 year old world traveler. I can't say in this day and age I would send my child (16 is still a child) to travel alone in europe. I suspect it was with a school group (that is not alone)? Otherwise...I cannot give you the "way to go" you are looking for. I simply cannot agree that it is a "good" thing that your 16 year old "did" europe all alone. I am glad you and your ex Husband agreed...I presume a lack of closeness was not what broke up your marriage then? Regarding the pill swallowing...if you can swallow food...you can swallow a pill. Unless you take your sustainance via a straw...you can swallow something that big. Unless someone can show me in the DSM a diagnosable illness that precludes you from swallowing something smaller than stuff you put down your pie whole 3 times a day...I am not buying it! Your mother did you a disservice not teaching you that life skill earlier. I plan to ensure that every one of my children can swallow a pill. Sorry that hit a nerve...It is ridiculous!!!! Its a flippin pill! ok you can yell at me now. Ha ha

I dont see your "kick *ss" as being helpful because it is pretty clear Dad wont agree to this and all you are doing is making OP feel crummy becuase her options are limited. It is also IMHO unacceptable to use this type of language when recommending how to deal with children. kkny, Oh my GOD! You better go back and read this thread again, because I'M not the one who said that! That was a quote from ANOTHER poster. In my post, I was simply AGREEING with her, and validating her point! We are NOT our fathers, and neither one of us were even talking to you! And as far as your "IMHO" goes regarding language? Who cares! My parents did a great job of rasing us, as evidences by the fact that all of my siblings and I are financially secure, married, college degreed professionals, with families, lovely homes, and we all love each other and worship the ground our parents walk on. I'd say they got it right! And MySpace already DOES deny service for those who violate their TOS agreement, especially to teens. It's how they've managed to avoid the many lawsuits that have been filed against them! Their legal argument, which has prevailed in court thus far, is that someone has to register a COMPLAINT before they can investigate violations of the TOS agreements! MySpace is facing a whole slew of lawsuits right now on allegations they failed to protect minors, oh aside from one in Texas involving another minor who committed suicide after being raped by a Myspace predator. Oh no, MySpace doesn't pose any dangers for children! And I never said that PROFANITY in and of itself that violates MySpace and other TOS agreements necessarily either. It's the purpose and intent for which they are used! Even obscenities can be used in ways which are reasonably nonoffensive--as Howard Stern more or less demonstrated many long years ago. Why don't you try going back and reading the actual portions of the MySPace TOS and see if you can comprehend what actually says, and WHY neither the words "obscenity" or "profanity" are used. After doing so, if you're still having comprehensive problems, please let me know and I'll try to provide further clarification. If I'm still in the general mood, that is. Have you ever given some consideration to taking some adult literacy classes? I mean, how do you manage to communicate with anyone? Or DO you know better and are really the one here who's been "phrasing arguments to suit yourself?" Yeah, that's about what I thought. Oh, and in case you're also not aware, record companies have been filing lawsuits for BILLIONS of dollars for copyright infringement directly against CHILD as young as 12 for converting music into MP3s and distributing it for free on internet sites such as "Napster", who was also sued and settled the suit for somewhere around the neighborhood of $400 million and agreeing never to do it again! There are still internet sites that engage in this practice in countries currently not under US jurisdiction--but under international treaties, the record companies are hard at work going after them as well, while kids in this country are still posting their MP3, never imagining that one day, they might get slapped with a lawsuit too! And when and if that day comes, guess who's going to get to pay? So don't try telling me it's never going to happen--it already IS! As far as "limited options" go, almost EVRERYONE's options are limited! Otherwise instead of getting up to go to work in the morning, we'd all live in mansions, while cruising the world, and sunning at the beach! And just because her husband hasn't "stepped up to the plate" YET, don't go assuming he won't! I "chose my battles wisely" and ignored most things, but at one point, instigated by their psychotic mother's desire to get my husband back, their behavior became somewhat abusive. Before it even went that far, husband sat them both down and informed them in no uncertain terms that he never even knew he was capable of loving anyone as much as he loved me. That they would be starting their own lives soon, but him and I were FOREVER, so they better not even think of abusing "MY WIFE" again! It was a great speech, I was very proud of him! Oh, and 2 days after he PRIVATELY told his X what would happen if she ever tried pulling that crap again, she ran off over 1,000 miles away to escape his wrath! Oh, she came back, always does. She's so predictable. And as far as your snotty little insinuations regarding "intimidating" my SDs go? Yeah? I spent 2 hours on the phone with my youngest this morning, who's also coming over tonight for dinner with her BF, and his sister's been knocking herself out trying to get me to TALK to her again! She's currently banned from our home for attempting to con my husband into agreeing to "sneak" BM into HIS mother's funeral behind my back. That's when we got a lawyer to inform his X that if she tried showing up, not only would she be thrown out, but we would file legal action against her. He didn't talk to his daughter for quite a while after that either, and she's been sending me flowers and cards trying to apologize ever since. And I'll accept it--when I'm pretty sure I won't say anything to her I might regret later. And it's not like I'm even that mad at her. We always kept our problems with her mother PRIVATE, so I'm not even positive if she's aware of her mother's true agenda, which never had anything to do with them anyway. Only reason I'm even on this board is because my husband's out-of-town, working with her and her husband, in the business we helped them start! But that's business, and my God! The money's phenomenal! Which is also the REAL reason loser bum BM wants MY husband back, and also what I'm afraid of letting slip to SD that I might regret later. She's already in counseling and several different medications, but that's because her husband finally got tired of her mother MOOCHING off them, and threw her out on her sorry rear. Is this your real problem? Has your X moved on and is living a life of bliss with his new wife, and won't allow your bitterness to intrude on their happiness? Have they shut you out and won't listen to a single word you say, leaving you with the only "option" of taking out your frustrations on the SMs on this board instead? Tell me, how am I doing here?

I had to think of this thread today when I found out SD lied to everyone this last week. She has a report due in January & was to turn in notes last week. The teacher sent a note on Friday that a few students hadn't turned in their notes but the class was supposed to be working on their rough draft. When she came back from BM's on Sunday, we asked her & she told us she turned in her notes and was working on her rough draft already. Monday, I went on Aeries Browser & see she has no points for her notes and at dinner, we ask her why. Then she says her mom took them out of her backpack on the weekend. Well, Friday she came home before her mom picked her up so she didn't take her backpack. She says, not this weekend, the weekend before. She swears she has 5 pages of notes at her mom's house. Well, I text her mom & ask if she took the notes out & she says 'no, they are in her desk at school' and swears she saw them two weeks ago. I call her teacher and the teacher tells me she asked SD yesterday and SD told her she was almost done with it. She said she would check her desk & call me later. She calls me back after lunch and tells me SD had a few notes buried in her desk but nowhere near done. She kept her in at lunch and kept her after school to work on it. The notes and rough draft are supposed to be turned in by Friday so they can start working on the final draft on winter break. It's due a week after school resumes. We are upset that she lied to us, the teacher and maybe her mom... although her mom also lied about seeing the notes in her desk. We want to ground her but she leaves in a few days to her mom's and then has a week of 'FUN' and when she gets back, guess who has to be the meanies and make her work on her project. (DH won't let her take it to her mom's to work on it because her mom will just do it for her)