I could never understand letting whoever move in and out of your house when there are children involved. Very unhealthy for children.

Admitted that it isn't any female who may be in the role of teacher, and guide, that is the threat, but only the vixen who stole her husband. Kkny has admitted she will do whatever it takes to destroy that biatch including using her children as weapons. Way to go Kkny. Destroy the father, because everything you do to stepmom you also do to the father, for what, revenge? Wait til you see the outcome of your ministrations. It ain't gonna be pretty.

I never said I would do whatever it takes to destroy Xs GF. I think I have said I never speak to her. What I have said is I will make certain that DD has what she is entitled to financially (now waiting for flames that no child is "entitled" to anything, only spouse) -- and if that bother Dads GF, not my problem. I cant imagine this destroying him. I dont use DD as weapon. But I guess you regard my making certain that Dads obligations, including college, a car, etc, are met as destructive.

"just my opinion, but grandparents with health problems (well meaning as they are), don't need the stress of a teenager."

My exH is about the same age as the child's grandparents, and I am only a few years younger, and we have a child who is not even a teenager yet. My exH has some health problems. I don't know if the child's grandparents are the best placement for her, but their age should not be a stumbling block. Lots of people in their late fifties are raising teenagers.

"It's understandable to resent the other woman for having an affair with a married man, but it's not her fault he cheated. If he hadn't cheated with her, it would have been someone else. He said his vows to you, she never promised you anything, HE DID.

It is the responsibility of everyone not to participate in immoral behavior. I never vowed not to harm my neighbor, or not to steal her car, but it would be wrong if I did.

Unless you happen to be the CEO of a major corporation who looks like Brad Pitt, there is not necessarily "someone else." There are a limited number of women within a reasonable distance who a)are ok with having an affair, b)would be interested in financially supporting an older, very introverted, depressed guy with no money and a large number of youngish kids, c) who don't smoke, and aren't alcoholic.

"it's likely had more to do with how he felt about himself."

I think that is absolutely true - affairs are almost always about how the person having the affair feels about him or herself.

theotherside, it was YOUR choice to have children later in life. GRANDPARENTS have raised their children and it's NOT their responsibility to raise them, health problems or not. I'm sure there are lots of grandparents that do raise their grandchildren, but sending your kids to ill grandparents because two able bodied parents can't handle them, well IMHO That's just WRONG.

and I just don't get what your point is about your husband's affair. It seems the other woman is taking the heat when HE CHEATED. You are blaming her because she was willing to sleep with a married man and she's willing to support him because he's a bum with too many kids? It's still his fault. You don't have to vow not to steal or harm someone, there are laws against that. I'm not saying that what she did was right. But she doesn't have the legal obligation to your marriage, he did.

His affair had everything to do with how he feels about himself just as your reluctance to move on and get over it has to do with how you feel about yourself. And both of you are doing things that are going to affect your children forever. Unless you are a child of divorce, you will never know what that feels like. I do. and it's been 25 years since my parents divorced and it still affects me.

Ima,

Although both X and TOW cheated, X is still the parent of my DD and has legal right to a relationship with her. TOW has none. X may have cheated, but still (I think) has feelings for DD. TOW has done nothing to show any concern for DD. This isnt about anyone taking the heat, its about how to try to deal with people going forward.

your right kkny, but he chooses to be with TOW still, so unless she goes somewhere else when he visits with her, she is going to have some sort of relationship (whether it's good or bad is up to your DD) and if he chooses to not see his DD, then that's NOT TOW's fault, it's still his choice. He's the adult, He's the father, and he has the ultimate decision on it. If he allows TOW to decide, then there you have it, that's his decision. Just as you decide to not have anyone in your life. If you did have someone in your life that didn't want your DD around, it would be YOUR choice to continue that relationship. You would probably end it, HE WON'T. Therein lies HIS priorities. How is that HER fault?

X only sees DD either outside of the house (restaurants, etc.) or when GF is not around. So no, the GF and DD dont appear to have a relationship.

if he marries her and after DD's an adult, that may change.

Adultery is against the law in my state - whether the adulterer is married or is sleeping with someone who is. Why are you so defensive of unmarried OW's? Were you one at one time? Both my exH and the OW are to blame.

"and it's been 25 years since my parents divorced and it still affects me."

Yet couples who were together for 25 years are supposed to just "move on and get over it."

Why are you reluctant move on and get over it? You're not a child anymore, and haven't been for many years. Your parents didn't cheat on you. Neither one of them vowed to keep your family intact until you were grown. (sarcasm intended..)

Divorce affects everyone involved, permanently. No one ever "gets over it," and, generally speaking, the longer you have been married and the more invested in the marriage you were, the more it affects you.

Nope, I've never been the other woman. I am not defensive of them and make no excuses for that, I think it's wrong and if it's against the law, prosecute if you can. But it's getting old to hear you guys blame the women your husbands cheated on you with, when your husbands are the ones that had a legal obligation and comittment to you. The other woman didn't.

My parents were married for 19 years when they divorced. and yes, move on and get over it. You may never forget it but life does go on. My dad moved on and remarried. He does not sit around blaming my mom for cheating on him and breaking up the family. and Yes, I'm an adult now and with a mom that spent years telling me that my dad was to blame for everything. In a way, she did cheat on me when she put me in a position to choose her or my dad. I was a kid and I loved them both but she made me feel guilty for liking his new wife. I'm not reluctant to move on and get over it. I've chosen to have limited contact with my mother and that is the warning that I hope to convey to you and kkny, when you think that you are doing what is best for your children. If you think your bitter attitude isn't going to someday affect how your children feel about you, you could be very wrong. Kids will side with the "victim" and in your case, you've got the "poor me, look what he and his whore did to us" attitude. One day, your kids may be old enough to realize that there were other problems in your marriage and the affair wasn't the only thing that led to the divorce. They may forgive their father because they love him and perhaps get to know the other woman (if she's still around) and they will form thier own opinions about her. You can't control that from happening. You may be able to influence your children when they are minors, but when they are adults, they make their own choices.

Kids will side with the "victim"? dont know about that. I think sometimes they favor the parent with the money to buy them things, like cars, and pay for trips, etc. Just as likely. And I never make by daughter chose. Shes free to do what she wants with Dad. In her crowd in high school, they dont look kindly on a girl who goes out with a friends boyfriend. As even my DD understands and says to her friends, you have to wait for the first couple to break up.

Are you saying it is EVER ok to go with a friend's boyfriend kkny? In my view if you value your friendship you don't EVER go out with a FRIEND'S boyfriend, broken up or otherwise. So is stepmom an ex friend of yours?

No obviously not an X friend. But wow what values -- Ok to go out with married man, but not friends X boyfriend. I think you are just looking for excuses to defend TOW.

But please from your Friday post at 17:17, what am I doing to destroy this woman?

Talking about TOWs and who is to blame...

My XH just left his wife for TOW who is a wife of his good friend. TOW also left her H to be with my XH. I know, soap opera...

That couple was regularly at my XH's and his wife's house, my XH's wife was serving them dinners. They were staying overnight in my XH's house (they are out of town). It was going on for a long time apparently.

Now my XH's wife is so devastated, she cannot function, she also had to immidiatelly quit her well paid job because she and my X worked together.

My XMIL and XFIL who i am close to are so devastated and embarassed. My XH's son, who is 8 does not talk to his father at all, refuses to spend time with him. My grown daughter is mildly upset because she feels bad about her little brother and also because she finds this whole situation embarassing!

My X and his TOW are moving in together and his son refuses to go there.

Now we can talk all we want about moving on and forgiving, but I can only imagine how my XH wife feels, especially knowing that it all took place under her own roof!!! And no, it is only H's fault, it is TOW's fault as well.

If my H betray me like this after over 10 years of marriage and under my roof I don't know if I would move on that quickly. It is easy to judge when it does not concern us. We don't know what we would do.

In a situation of kkny I doubt her DD wants to hang around her dad's GF. And who would think otherwise? If anyone do this to me I doubt my daughter would want to hang around them. My XH's son is only 8 and he does not want to be around that woman. It is very easy to tell others to move on.

imamommy,

If your mother had the affair, she was not the victim. She was the perpetrator.

Perhaps you are not aware that most of my children ARE adults - some are only a decade or so younger than you. One of them has not spoken to my exH since the day he left, going on a decade ago. Sometimes that was darn inconvenient for me, since I had to drive her back and forth to college all the time, etc. I rather doubt if any of the three oldest will ever be close to him, after all this time.

like I said, they make their own choices after they are adults. My mom blamed my dad for the events leading up to her affair. She was wrong and my point is that she NEVER moved on and got over it. She has the same attitude that I get from TOS and KKNY's messages. I'm not saying that it's easy to get over it or that it's going to happen right away. And I'm not saying that there is no blaming TOW. But what I hear in a lot of their messages, is that everything is the fault of TOW. Nobody is saying your children HAVE to have a relationship with her. All I'm saying is that eventually, THEY will make that decision. and there may come a day that they hold against you, your bitter angry attitude.

What I don't understand is: How is it helping your children (and you) to come here everyday and take out your anger on a step parent you don't even know? Doesn't that keep your feelings of hostility fresh? or does it make you feel better to take out your frustration you have against her, by saying mean and bitter things to women you don't even know? I'm not judging anyone, I'm giving my perspective as an adult child of divorce, a step child, a step mother and a biological mother.

If an 8 year old says I don't want to visit, it's different than a 16 year old. My 8 year old step daughter drew hate pictures of her mom and mom's new BF. She was angry and hurt but she loves her mom. We let her know it's ok to be angry but her mom is still her mom and loves her. She eventually came around. Every situation IS different. THAT is my point to TOS and KKNY when they lump all stepmoms/GF into one barrel and label them.

I am still wwaiting to hear from Colleen as to what I am doing to destroy Dads GF.

Ima,

I think you can be judgemental at times, but thats OK.

And I think if all SMs and FSMs here are there rights, and what they are doing is OK, or even if that is what they predominantly hear, its not good for children.

one of the problems with an ex wife (that isn't a step mom), coming to a forum like this and feeling like you have to defend the BM's & stepchildren because the step parent's here seem to be "bashing" them, is:

1. You are not a step mom, You can't possibly know what it feels to raise someone else's child. Whether it's on weekends or EOW or full time, each situation has it's own set of problems. It varies from house to house, depends on the level of involvement of each parent, temperament of each child, and many other factors. EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.

2. Most step parents don't usually seek out a forum such as this until the problems begin to affect their family. Problems that are common to step families: conflict between the bio-parents (can be involving the step parent(s) or not), conflict between the ex and new spouse, conflict between the child and new spouse and sometimes, conflict between the new spouse and his/her spouse. They come here for a variety of reasons, but most want support and advice. It's just my opinion, but if a step family gets along and doesn't have problems (and I'm sure there are plenty that do work out great), then they aren't coming here. So, the group here is a little biased from the whole population of step families.

3. Some SM & FSM do say terrible things on here, about the children and the ex's. Not everyone is cut out to be a step parent. Some get married, hoping to cut the child out and those step parents made their mistake getting together with someone that has kids. But some became step parent's with good intentions and high hopes for a family and instead, perhaps they have a spouse that doesn't stand up for himself and his new family (and has an ex that tries to control their life) which can make things harder. or they have step children that expect things from them and give no respect (sometimes with coaching from the bio parent). They may say terrible things out of frustration or years of being treated badly.

The question was asked, "would you do it over again?" and I am surprised at how many step moms said NO. I would in a heartbeat. But would you? If you could go back, would you have married your husband 25 years ago?

imamommy,

But your comparison does not hold together logically, because your MOTHER was the one who had the affair. She didn't marry her affair partner (at least that is the impression I got), and she apparently had primary custody of you. She had no betrayal to "get over," and she probably did have to deal with a lot of guilt and regret. The situations aren't analogous at all. It would make more sense to compare her to my exH, except that he married the OW and he does not have custody, so that wouldn't really be analogous either.

And TOW and my exH DO deserve the blame for the destruction of our family, just as your mother and her affair partner deserve the blame for the destruction of your family.

I'm not comparing her affair to your husband's. My dad did have to "get over" it. and he did. He moved on. The point isn't about her affair, it's about her bitter & angry attitude for years to follow that affected how her children feel about her. I believe you said that it's been almost a decade (or it may have been kkny) but either way, it's a long time to still be angry. Doesn't there come a time that you can say it's over. He was a jerk, she was a whore, whatever... I'm moving forward with my life because remaining bitter is destroying my family too. You can't change the past, you can however control YOUR future. I don't see how it helps YOU to come here and say mean things to women you don't know. That question has not been addressed.

and my mom didn't "get" primary custody of me. I chose to stay there because she was so needy and my sister went with my dad because she did blame my mom for having the affair. In retrospect, the choices made back then were NOT in our best interests but that was also before they had family courts like they have now. It's the past and if you don't leave it behind you, you are always going to be miserable and in pain over what was done to you. and you being in pain, it also affects your children.

You can't talk about leaving the past behind in one breath and how the divorce still affects you today in another.

I have never said anything on this board in order to "be mean."

I have been horrified by some of the statements made by many of the stepmothers (and occasional stepfather) on this forum, especially about children as young as four or five, who have been described as manipulative, evil, and possibly even homicidal. Of course it is always the child's or the real mother's fault - either because of something she has done or not done or because of genetics. The father apparently has little to do with how the children turn out..

After reading this forum, I have become more and more convinced that remarriage is almost always a bad idea. The only major positive is that it can raise the standard of living of one of the parties to the marriage (while, however, often lowering the standard of living of the other), but money is not a particularly good reason to marry. In most cases, no one ends up happier, and in many cases everyone involved ends up less happy. In cases where the father is the NCP, having a new wife and a "new family" generally means he spends less time with his children. Actually this is generally true when he is the CP as well. If he is a good enough parent to be awarded primary custody, then he should be a good enough parent to do a fine job of raising the kids without having to bring a woman in to the mix.

And,no, of course I wouldn't have married my exH had I known what he was going to do.

after reading this forum i have huge doubts about being involved with anyone with children. Frankly it horrifies me now. I have no plans to marry in any near future but my SO has grown daughters who are already a minor problem due to their manipulative ways (and one of them has mood swings so she needs to be tip-toed around). if our relationship is ever going to become serious like marriage at least i am prepared how bad it is going to be. haha At least i don't have idillic image of it anymore.

theotherside,

my parent's divorce will probably always affect me because my mom never got over it. I don't know if children ever can get over it but the parents should move on. The longer a parent dwells on it, the more it's going to affect the children. My mom still dwells on it and when I say it still affects me, it affects the way I feel about her. I've done what I can to move on. I didn't thnk I would ever get married because she made marriage seem like a negative to me. She talked about "wasting the best years of her life" with my dad. and sometimes said, "it never works out" so when I grew up, I never had a desire to get married. Until I met my husband.

I don't think remarriage is a mistake, any more than first marriages are. Both can be disasterous if you don't enter into it seriously and with realistic expectations. It's my opinion that first marriages that end in the first few years are due to things not turning out like they hoped in the beginning. Marriage is not a place to "try things to see if they will work" It's a COMITTMENT. The same is true for second and subsequent marriages. The only difference is that there are other dynamics, such as ex's and children to consider. I find it sad when ANY marriage ends. I am always sad for the children mostly.

I think most step parents enter into it with good intentions but maybe unrealistic expectations and when they are disappointed, they don't know how to resolve things. In a first marriage, you don't have the same issues with dealing with an ex, the children, different rules, different lifestyles, different schedules, etc. Of course the best thing for families is to stay intact. But that isn't always possible and under your theory, every person that divorces with children should stay single until the kids are at least grown so the parent's can co-parent. If that's the case, then they should stay married and co-parent and get along. But that doesn't work either. Life is short and while being alone is fine if it makes you happy, sharing your life with someone can also be nice. It's short sighted to say never. There are lots of nice guys out there.

"I don't know if children ever can get over it but the parents should move on."

If parents can simply will themselves to "get over it" then adult children should be able to also.

"every person that divorces with children should stay single until the kids are at least grown so the parent's can co-parent. If that's the case, then they should stay married and co-parent and get along."

Exactly.

perhaps you didn't read my WHOLE message...

"My mom still dwells on it and when I say it still affects me, it affects the way I feel about her. I've done what I can to move on"

and

"under your theory, every person that divorces with children should stay single until the kids are at least grown so the parent's can co-parent. If that's the case, then they should stay married and co-parent and get along. But that doesn't work either"

No, I did read the message. You say you've "done what [you] can to move on." Perhaps your mother has done what she can to move on. Why can't you completely move on, stop letting it affect the way you feel about her? You expect her to stop letting the divorce affect her. Why do you hold her to a higher standard? You are both mature adults - you are in your thirties, right?

Obviously staying married is the best course of action (barring abuse). It's not that it "doesn't work" - under current law, it only takes one spouse to divorce. They don't need to prove fault. If remarriage or cohabitation were illegal (no, I don't know how they would enforce that), or, better yet, socially unacceptable, I suspect there would be a lot fewer divorces and a lot more reconciliations. Even in cases where the parents remained divorced, there would be a lot fewer sources of conflict, making co-parenting much smoother.

"Obviously staying married is the best course of action (barring abuse). It's not that it "doesn't work" - under current law, it only takes one spouse to divorce. They don't need to prove fault. If remarriage or cohabitation were illegal (no, I don't know how they would enforce that), or, better yet, socially unacceptable, I suspect there would be a lot fewer divorces and a lot more reconciliations. Even in cases where the parents remained divorced, there would be a lot fewer sources of conflict, making co-parenting much smoother."

This is true, and there was a time that it was socially unacceptable to get divorced. But society has evolved over the last four decades and have made plenty of "unacceptable" things "acceptable" and even consider it an easy fix. Like I said, people enter into marriage much too casually nowadays. When they plan their weddings, they are more concerned with having an elaborate or "dream" wedding sometimes, more than having a quality partner or solid relationship. Divorced parents that remain divorced and never remarry may sometimes have fewer conflicts, making co-parenting much smoother, IF they are mature about it.

So, if they are mature enough to co-parent, why can't they be mature and accept their ex's new spouse? I know in your case, she's a source of pain and I'm not saying you should just forget that she had an affair with your husband. But most new spouses are NOT the other woman. Sometimes, a relationship does not work out long before anyone meets a new spouse.

and I guess it's hard to completely move on and not let it affect the way I feel about my mother when I still have to hear about it being my dads fault they went bankrupt in 1979 and if he had not done certain things, they would still be living in their big house and still together. She may have done what she can to move on, but she's still living in the past and probably her own regret, but she brings it with her when we talk and it makes it miserable to be around her sometimes. I have moved on by choosing to live away from her and having limited contact with her. I'm married and focus on my family. I don't have a mom that I can go to for advice or support. When my step mom was well, I was more comfortable going to her for advice. My dad and I can talk about anything and I'm much closer to him than my mom and it's because my mom will probably live the rest of her life angry that things turned out the way they did and reminding everyone of it. She could have done something to make her life better but she chooses to sit around and blame my dad still. She resents that he is financially comfortable and has told us that if we owe him money, we don't have to pay him back because he doesn't need it.

I have never said anything on this board in order to "be mean."

Well I wish you would. It would be much less damaging than your self righteous, holier-than-thou attitude.

"self righteous, holier-than-thou attitude" -- I dont find TOS that way. And I suspect that many SMs may feel differently when they are older

haha! Older? How old do you think some of us are? 12?

TOS and I are both over 50. I will speak for myself, but yes, I see things differently than I do when I was younger.

One could also ask why the new spouse can not accept that there will always be a relationship between the father and the mother, they will always have a shared history, there will always be a bond between them through their children and their shared history, in many cases they will still love each other and often regret the divorce, and the needs of the children of the first marriage will always be paramount.

I agree that the new spouse should accept that there will always be a relationship between the mother and father, and their shared history/bond through the children, etc. or they shouldn't marry someone that has children. Whether one regrets the divorce or not isn't the issue. I'm sure that there are a lot of people that may love someone that didn't feel that way about them and they may always keep them in their heart (doesn't have to be a former spouse) but when you move on and decide to marry, you should make a commitment to your new marriage and leave the old one behind. That doesn't mean to leave the children behind but the ex wife seems to think it's a package deal. When I married my husband, he came with a child. That doesn't mean the child's mother gets to dictate how we live our lives and maybe that's the problem. Her mom tries to tell us what to do in our home but say a word about her home, and it's none of our F-ing business.

If the ex-wife and children are not a package deal, how come so many stepmothers think THEY and the father are a package deal. You can't have it both ways.

I think there are conflicts.

If we all say that a child should be able to see a parent "whenever possible" -- rule number 20 of Ima's rules for parents, who determines "whenever possible? Dad, mom, stepmom? What if stepparent says not possible? Which appears to be suggested on this board regularly. What if stepmom says "Stepmothers Rights" say I have right to be consulted about child visiting?

The problem is that various peoples rights intersect here. There is no easy way out when people dont agree. Not that anyone here is fighting physically, but the saying "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose" describes colliding worlds.

At the end of the day, any conflict is not going away just because SM or FSM thinks it should.

well, really KKNY, the rules are about the CHILD'S rights. That is the entire POINT. The Dad, Mom, Step Dad, Step Mom and any other ADULT in a child's life should stop, step back and think about what is best for the CHILD. and not enough of the adults out there are willing to consider the CHILD because they are so wrapped up in THEIR OWN feelings. The purpose of the rules are to be a tool for the adults to realize that some of the things we do, hurt the child and to help us think about how the child feels when we make our decisions that affect the child.

I don't think it's going to change unless the adults care enough to try to change, and it's very hard when there are already conflicts, to get both sides to agree. But it would be nice if they did.

but who is to determine what is the best for a child, especially a young child? i see here that a lot of time SMs think that children are better off with them than with BMs. But what if BM's perception differs? I luckily never had that problem but I can see it a lot here, so who is to decide what is the best?

I kind of think that parents are the ones to decide even if others disagree (expception would be abuse or neglect of course) ...

The parents are supposed to determine what's best and of course if they agreed on everything, they would probably still be married or together. Both sides are likely to think they are right... That's why there's usually conflict.

Here's an example...

Mom has custody and dad has visitation every other weekend. He gets free tickets from his boss for a weekend at a ski resort. It's not his weekend to have his child, but he'd like to take his child skiing. Mom is struggling and can't afford to take the child skiing. She has no plans for the weekend and might even have to work.

Should Mom tell Dad, it's not your weekend so the child can't go (perhaps because she's angry at Dad for being able to afford things she can't or because his new GF or wife will be there or any reason that has to do with how she feels about Dad).

Or

Should Mom step back and say, my child will really have a good time and I can't afford to take him so he should get to go.

Unless Mom has bigger plans that would be ruined, how would it hurt to let the child go? Of course, there has to be reciprocity.

Your scenario works wonders an ex could spin it many ways.

See how great I am to let you go with other parent(OP). OP said OP was going even if you didn't go.

OP is always trying to buy you.

I was going to take you here and there but OP wants you this weekend.

Why should I do you any favors? (my personal favorite)

I can't afford to take you skiing ... OP doesn't pay enough support.

OP never liked skiing when we were together.

I wonder if OP gets that all the time as part of OP salary I can get a piece of that for CS.

Instead of .... hey OP called OP wants to know if you want to go skiing?.

That would be the simplest way... but most want to make it more difficult than it has to be. How did you work things out as a married couple .... did you say ok its your week to have to parent child time next week is mine. No you just planned stuff didn't have to worry about stepping on toes or trying to outdo the other parent you just did it.

I don't get your point...

If your point is that the mom would say those things to child, then they are NOT being a good parent. They are not thinking about how the child feels when he/she hears those things. I know it happens a lot and that is my entire point, the parents need to put their feelings aside and make decisions based on doing what's best for their children, not based on bad history or their own agenda.

Studies show that children grow to resent the parent that would say those things to them. It doesn't mean your child will hate you and never talk to you again, but they will always associate their painful childhood with harsh words said against someone they love.

honestly i never in my life (and we raised our kid in a divorced situation) had to deal with the issue like this. i am simpy not familiar.. Whoever wanted to take her skiing and gave me a weekend off was welcome to do so. haha I know that some parents (married or divorced) are very attached to their children, like can't spend a weekend apart. maybe they should get a life.

my point before was that it is up to the parents to decide what is the best for a child. you might assume that BM is jealous of SM so she does not want a kid to go skiing, but in reality it is quiet possible that BM does not care or even think about SM, but worries about child's health condition while SM and a dad do not care enough about it. you might not know what is really going on.

my point was more that the way you say you raised your child is the way parents SHOULD behave. my point is that in some (obviously not yours) situations, the adults have jealousy, or their own feelings that they work off of to make a decision. I'm not saying that either side is right. I'm saying that it would be nice if ALL THE ADULTS would ACT LIKE ADULTS. If they have those feelings, (and it's common to feel that way, we are all human) they should set their own feelings aside and not make decisions based on how they feel about the other adults when the child is the one that loses in those situations.

I know what you are saying. Adults should act like adults, but it is way more tricky...

yyou never know why people do what they do. I used to know a guy, when he asked his exW for changes in schedule (due to his work arrangements for example he would ask to switch weeks), extra days, or days out of order etc she always said yes (how nice right?). But then when she decided to move ina different areas, she wanted full custody instead of 50/50, so her argument was that he could not keep with custody arrangements, always insisted on seeing a kid in a wrong time, violated court orders etc. It caused him a lot of stress. She ended up not moving, but who knew...

It can also go the other way, BM could be hesitant to give dad extra days because he can use it against her claiming that she asks him to pick up a kid more than the custody allows. And so on. Something what sounds to you like beneficial for children might not be so. You don't know why BM says what she says or does what she does, she could as well be protecting her child and herself.

She might think her child is not treated well by the father or SM so she wants to keep that contact to what custody allows. Or maybe she is afraid a kid will break his leg skiing. LOL Who knows

What I meant was .... if hubby might need to change a day for whatever reason BM will start flipping through her order she carries it around like a "bible" and refers to it any time something is asked of her. We do not rely on her for anything we could give her a million reasons why it could/would be beneficial to the children to change a day whatever and she will not budge. Even sends the kids home with highlighted copies of the order to show how she doesn't have to budge on anything. We have to show that a change would be beneficial to her not the children then maybe its an option but most likely not.

We have learned to rely on ourselves to figure out what to do with the children in any situation that might come up. Asking mother to do anything "extra" for her children would be doing hubby a favor so she will not budge. When we have to ask her to do something extra ... we have to come up with every negative response she might have and ask her involving the negative replies she will come up with instantly.

Fine,

I cant remember the last time X took my DD for a weekend. Actually yes, Thanksgiving of 2006.

Oh i wish that would be the case with my Dh 's ex! That is exactly what happen one weekend 3 years ago. We won tickets for a circus (family) and my DH called his ex to take the kids on 'her ' weekend. She had no plans ( we found that out later) but refused! saying ' its my weekend, why should i do you any favors?' This is the type of woman mom is! She wouldnt' let my dh swap weekends or just take them for the day , a few hours! to the circus!!!
but then would complain 2 years later that 'oh...you dont even come up on theother weekends to take them to mcdonalds'! She's ripped in the head! sooo both Dh and i have given up on weekends the kids are with her and right it off cause we know that she plays games and my dh rather save the kids the pain of seeing it.
I honestly think the legal system should change a few things. Ie, make both parents take after divorce getting along courses. Get fined ($) if they do not get along and especially if they use the kids in any way. Divorced parents for the most part do not act like adults. Thsi needs to be seriously adressed.
I do have one friend who is friends with his exwife her partner and vice versa...its incredible!!! They ALL GO OUT AS AN ENTIRE FAMILY! I could only dream of that! I seee them all going out ..one big clan! You should see how happy all the kids are.