Two thoughts:

First, financial differences and difficulties are reported to be the number one stress in marriage, so I'd consider then very carefully for a good long while before getting married. Is it bad luck, bad decisions, an irresponsible style? Would your superior money management skills be enough to get things back on track? Would he be happy with you controlling the purse strings? Would you? Are you content with the idea of working forever? Or do you want to be SAHM?

Thought #2: If you want a great-looking engagement ring, get one. Get a great setting in gold or platinum with a nice-sized CZ and tell no one the stone isn't real. Replace it later when and if you can comfortably do so.

Otherwise, it appears your choices are to further compromise your financial position or give up your 'really engaged, ring and all' viewpoint.

The first thing that popped out at me is that he 'wined & dined' you before you started living together. It shows he has either a lack of control (impulse spending) or let his priorities (bills) stray because he wanted to impress you. (not that it makes him a bad person for wanting to impress you and give what he thinks you deserve) but now is the time to acknowledge that he can't afford to wine & dine you. It sounds like you are okay with that too, as long as he's honest. So, the first suggestion is to communicate and discuss your future financial goals. It's important to not only listen to what he says, but to watch what he does. Actions speak louder than words. You don't have to agree 100% or share the exact same values regarding money, but you both should know where each of you sits regarding it. Then you can decide which way to go.

Second, a ring is symbolic and having an expensive ring is not necessary to get engaged. There's nothing wrong with having an inexpensive solitaire for a few hundred dollars and later, upgrading when times get better. I would not buy my own ring though... that's where I draw the line. He can get me a cheap one if that's all he can afford, but HE's gonna get it, not me.

Third, I'm impressed with your post and talk of your life together. That is what marriage is. We all want our 'dream' wedding, but really... too many people focus on the wedding and not the marriage. There are lots of options from getting married at the courthouse & having a small party with family & friends to a big extravagant affair. It's ONE day and some of us are still paying on it years later. Our family is in the wedding industry and a few years ago, a couple came in & spent $50,000 on their wedding. The invitations were exquisite 'books' with poems & photos of the happy couple. They 'built' the wedding site on their property and it was very formal. The marriage lasted less than a year. They spent more time planning the wedding than the marriage lasted I'm sure they weren't done paying for the wedding when they divorced. Have a wedding you can afford with the people that are special to you there to share it with and plan your marriage. Anniversaries are a great time to throw a bigger, more extravagant party anyways.

Should have been more specific -- I didn't mean you should buy and pay for your own ring. I meant 'plural you two' should select a ring.

And Ima's point about the marriage versus the wedding is right on target.

I too think that a ring symbolizes an engagement and have a hard time taking people seriously when they talk about being engaged and have no ring. I love Sweeby's idea!

How long was your future husband divorced when you met? I am just wondering how long he has had this debt. And if the debt is so great has he considered bankruptcy?

Until his debt has been taken care of I would hold off on marriage because then it will also become your debt and poor credit.

My dh was in debt when we met and he had poor money management skills. His ex was the same way, so I guess that is why they were together 10 years and had nothing really to show for it!

I am good with money and helped my dh with budgeting. I took over all the finances and make sure bills get paid. I also let my dh know how much money we have to play with each month after bills and savings. When he wants something expensive he works overtime at work and sets the extra money aside for the purchase. The old him would buy it on credit, make late payments, and then pay lots of fees!

We have one debit card so we have to share it and plan our spending which has cut down greatly on any impulse shopping! We each have one credit card with a low limit for emergencies and we pay the full balance each month. I also had him set up some savings plan where the money gets taken directly out of each paycheck and put into a different account. That way it is never seen or touched!

With all that said I am glad I did not just walk away from dh because of his debt. And I think that with some careful planning and hard work you and your future husband can get his finances on track.

Is it possible for him to get a 2nd job part time to clear his debt up quicker?

But...I have this niggling thought..........if he REALLY wants to get married, why is he not working his butt off getting his finances sorted out? You say he is "in the process of trying to consolidate his debts"- well, he's had nearly a year now and I can't help but feel if he wanted to consolidate those debts badly enough he would have by now.

Exactly Colleen. To be honest, this is what I wonder too.

I like Sweeby's ring idea. Buy a nice setting with a CZ and switch the stone later--if it is ever important enough. Who knows, it may never be.

I would be WAY more concerned about the debt load and his inability to manage his finances. For me that's a deal breaker, knowing what I know now. He should be working two jobs, doing whatever needed to be done to settle these debts, and UNTIL HE IS DEBT-FREE I would not take one step toward the altar with him, and I might at this point even consider taking a step backward and live somewhere else until he can get it together. Don't marry his debt and don't try to save him. That's nothing more than a breeding ground for huge amounts of resentment. If you are as important as he says you are, he WILL do everything possible to earn you back.

Oh, and I wouldn't settle for debt "consolidation." I would want them GONE before I married him--and bankruptcy would NOT be an option. They're just more markers of immaturity.

Money is such a HUGE thing in marriage that deeply in debt or with permanently damaged credit is NOWHERE to start.

I know that he's sort of a pop $$$ guru, but Dave Ramsey's books and classes offer a lot of advice on becoming debt-free. It might be a place to start.

I agree that finances are the biggest reported marital stress, and probably one of the primary reasons for couples fighting. I don't know if there would ever be "enough" money. I can deal with not having money, I just can't deal with mismanaging the money we have (in the future). To me the relationship one has with money is more important than the amount of money that one has, if that makes sense. He definitely was trying to impress me and he has a definite cultural stance of enjoying life, which I understand, and I was not pursuing him because I thought he was wealthy - but I just didn't realize his tolerance level for debt and mine were so different. I assumed if he was spending money, it was because that was part of his disposable income.

I think BF would be happy to put me in charge of the money - I just can't imagine us putting everything in one pot. He has his money, and I have mine. His ex-wife had his wages garnished before the first child support payment ever had a chance to be late. So half his bi-weekly pay is gone right off the top, and that has nothing to do with me. Whatever he has left goes to our rent (we pay about one thousand dollars each per month), our utilities, his credit cards, his cell phone, his line of credit, his back taxes, his car loan on a car that doesn't run and I have never seen, and whatever the heck else he has going on.

We have joint utility bills that come to the house. I promptly open them, divide them in half, stamp and address label the envelope, stick a post-it on the front with each of our amounts and the mail-by date and put it in the bill slot on our desk. I remind him about him a week before I want to mail it if he hasn't put his check in. I have my planner with all my bills' amounts and due dates and I look at it constantly - I am extremely anal-retentive about this. Every payday, I pay over thirteen hundred dollars, as much as I can to every bill in my planner out to the next payday, and leave myself only about $200 for mad money and food. But I do not open his mail, check his bills or monitor how much and when. I have no access to that information and frankly do not want it. We have totally separate finances. I am very afraid to mix money because I would need legal advice to make sure his ex-wife will not have any grounds to come after my income for an increase in child support. I have worked like a dog to get to where I am and I am not going to let anyone try to take it from me (and she is just the type who would try).

I told him last week that if the latest debt consolidation effort continues the way the others have (refusing to take on his case, being non-responsive, trying to involve third party companies in other states, etc.) that my advice would be to hire a financial planner, whether or not he felt he could afford it. He is in a bad situation, although he said something as drastic as bankruptcy would not be necessary. He told me earlier this week that he was hiring a financial planner, and apparently will meet with them next week. I am fairly financially saavy, but not at the level of assistance that he requires, and not to the detriment of our relationship - I think I would get so angry I could not handle it.

On the topic of paying off all debt before marriage - I do not see how I could require this from him when I can not offer it myself. I have over $50,000 in student loans. If he required me to pay them off before we would get married, we would not marry for at least another 15 years. At that point, there would be no chance to have children. My career is going just the way I want it to, and if I keep working hard I could be making six figures in another five years. I am saving for retirement, and I love my work. It sounds crazy, but I could picture myself being one of those people who never retires. My BF and I both work upwards of 80 hours a week, and I love, love, love to work and be busy. I never have wanted in my life to be a SAHM, and if I did, I would definitely be barking up the wrong tree with BF. He can barely support his kids and himself - how could he support our rent, all of his bills AND mine??? He would never be able to pay all my bills and frankly, he should not have to. There is just no way.

I think it would be unfair of me to cast him in a light of total financial irresponsibility. He came to this country ten years ago with no credit, no debt, and a young wife and baby. He proceeded to get a job making $85k/yr, which coming from where he was coming from, astonished the he!! out of him. He took a real estate class for first-time homebuyers so that he could understand how to buy a house, which he did for his family, he paid down ALL his ex-wife's student loans, had a second baby even though BM said she wasn't sure if she still loved him, so he took a second job delivering newspapers early in the morning to afford the two cars she decided to buy, and then she finally left him, and took the kids 8 hours away so she could marry a doctor, and his life went into the toilet. He got the home in the divorce, but soon lost it because he couldn't afford the balloon loan payments and pay all the debt BM got to leave behind. She is currently doing the same thing to her new husband - he is struggling to pay the mortages on TWO homes that she wanted and subsidizing her and the girls' extravagant lifestyle. And, if I can be bitter for a moment, she wears a giant diamond on HER left hand.

So...were there a lot of red flags for BF? Yes, but coming up on four years now after the divorce, at least he is not bankrupt. He is in a holding pattern, and can't afford the dental work he so desperately needs, or to save more than 3% towards retirement, or to open college funds for his kids. LET ALONE buy me a ring right now, of seemingly any kind. I know that it is breaking his heart. Our lease for the next year is coming due, and I had some doubts about signing it, and just cashing in my chips and moving on. He was desperately sad but said he understood, and that he thought I deserved better. He said that he would be willing to leave our apartment and continue paying his part of the rent and utilities until the end of the lease so that I won't have to suffer. I feel like we can find a better way together. My life is richer for having him in it, even though he cannot really match my financial "contributions" towards our lifestyle.

I am sorry for the length of this, and the detail, and bringing up so many issues. You just don't know the enormous comfort offered to me from being able to tell someone who doesn't know me what is going on, so that I may be able to better find my way.

BTW, forgot to mention - BF has been working a kind of second job for the past two months, translations. He speaks a couple of unusual languages which I do not want to mention, because it would give too much away about who we are, but he probably makes a $500 per month from that. I insisted that he use it to pay down debt rather than buy me a ring, and he grudgingly agreed. He comes home from his long and hard days and goes to the computer to do his translations for the World Health Organisation and various government contractor translations, and the money comes to his account.

I have no access to that information and frankly do not want it.

Just my opinion, but this might be where you're running into trouble. There is a big difference, imo, between marrying someone who had some bad luck/made some bad decisions in the past but is currently doing his best to climb out from under the problems and basically shares your core financial values of where/how to spend money, vs. someone who does not share your core values and is currently (and can be expected to continue to) spend his money in ways you find frivolous rather than paying down his debt. You don't seem to know for sure which it is, so you're getting frustrated assuming it might be the latter, which might be unfair to him. Or not. You don't know. Doesn't sound fair to me to say "honey, I don't need or want to know the details of how you spend your money" then turn around and say he's doing it wrong (ie not getting results fast enough).

Wouldn't you feel better about the situation if you saw where all his money was going and *KNEW* he was doing the best he could under the circumstances? Or, alternatively, if it brought up some incompatibilities in priorities, you could discuss it with him and maybe find a solution?

As for the ring, I'm of the "who cares about a silly ring" crowd, so I don't really have advice there, although Sweeby's seems practical to me.

I think that he has an awful lot of baggage that he's carrying around and if that's what you want, more power to you, but I wouldn't step ONE foot towards it. FWIW, his ex-wife is probably responsible for some of his mess, but he was at LEAST an equal contributor toward the excesses. You can cast her as the evil one all you want, but he was complicit in all of it.

...and IMHO, debt consolidation does NOT solve the problem. It only moves the problem. The problem isn't where the debt is, but the debt itself. He needs a good CPA and maybe an attorney to guide him through this mess.

I just know that it would be too much for me--the financial stuff as well as the stepfamily stuff. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.... No thanks. Never again. I've cried boatloads of tears over kids that were not really mine and decisions that I didn't make.

Deep in debt is NO way to start a life together.

It sounds as if you've been floating along and like there's no real sign that things will change. I think think that if you want to feel really engaged-- with a proposal and a ring and planning for the future-- you're going to need to do something more about it.

Combined, you guys are spending $2000 a month on rent, and you said that your lease will be up soon. Could you move someplace that's less expensive or find other ways to cut down on recurring bills and agree that the money saved is "the ring fund"? That way, you're not taking away from his debt repayment but you're setting yourselves up to achieve the marriage goal. It's true that you would be kicking in for the ring that way, but he may not resist the idea so strongly if you make the case that it's money you would have spent on your lives together anyway.

I have to agree with the others who feel like there are some red flags, though. I had a friend who married a man when she knew that he had serious debt and financial management problems. It wasn't until after the wedding that she found out he had quite a bit more debt than she thought--enough that she felt they'd never afford children. He had adult children from a previous marriage and didn't care so much, but it was a very big deal for her. They had other problems, of course, but the finances were a big part of their breakup. If I were you, I would be worrying about whether a marriage would survive the financial situation that you know exist right now. And I would also be thinking about other problems that might occur and how well you would do as a couple if those other problems happened on top of the financial stuff.

You say he still has not climbed out of debt, but I'm wondering if that is even possible on his salary. The child support payments are not going to disappear and other pecuniary obligations don't disappear either if they're not paid each month. So are you saying he doesn't pay his bills? Otherwise, I don't know what you mean by you have not seen any relief. Maybe you need to add up his bills to determine how long it will take him to pay some things off, rather than expecting it to happen without knowing when or if it will happen. It could take another year. It could be five years down the road. You don't want to just sit waiting and wondering. I don't know why you don't want to get into his finances, but I think you should so you know what is up and when. You helping him get organized might be what he needs.

Does it sound to me like he needs your income? And, incidentally, you said I assumed if he was spending money, it was because that was part of his disposable income. The term is discretionary income. I know "disposable" sounds like it would fit the circumstance, but it actually means the money that has to be spent on living expenses. Look at it in terms of disposable diapers. A baby needs diapers, don't they? Disposable income is the amount you need. Discretionary income is what you have left over, such as you saying you have $200 left in mad money. Discretionary meaning it's up to you what you do with it.

At any rate, under no circumstances should you help pay for your ring. That also means you dont carry more of the burden for living expenses because that would be just another way of paying for the ring. I donÂt understand paying someone to help him organize finances. It always sounded backwards to me to go deeper into debt for the purpose of trying to get out of debt. What he does need is to talk to the IRS. They can make other payment arrangements for him, and there are ways they can dismiss all the fees and penalties to leave only the principle. That will lower his debt by quite a bit. Penalties are probably more than he owes them. He can also re-negotiate the car payment or even ask for a moratorium on the loan of three months or six months, then use that time to pay down high interest credit cards. If heÂs able to negotiate a moratorium, tell him to be sure the interest is also halted during that time.

I think quirk made a good point - It is true that I don't know enough about BFs financial details because I don't really get down into those weeds with him. I always thought it was none of my business and that it would be too invasive on my part. He is not my husband and we do not borrow money from one another. We both have debt and we are both trying to pay it off. He knows that I owe $50,000 in student loans and he has never once made me feel like I was not worth being with over that. Maybe deep down I thought that even if we'd marry we'd always have separate finances and my problems would be mine, and his problems would remain his. However, it has come to my attention that obtaining a home loan would be hard when I have worked my butt off for a good credit score and his is not as good. I do believe that we are honest with each other about finances and I know basically how much he owes and where. He is paying his bills, like I said we do not have creditors calling here or anything like that. It's just that there are so many minimum payments that it is hard for him to ever pay more than that. I need to take a look at quirk's advice though and see if there is a helpful way I can be more involved. He went today to our credit union to get advice about hiring either a CPA or a CFP, and he sorted out the tax thing as soon as he filed - he did not notify the IRS when he went from being a homeowner to a renter and when he had his taxes done this past spring he found out that he was going to owe money that would take about a year and a half to pay off. I was not aware that he needed to notify the IRS that he had sold his house because I have never owned a house and it did not involve me or occur to me.

I understand what vivian31 is saying too - BF thought he had married for life and tried to do the best he could and he obviously thought that going along with the program sometimes was best. I have been frustrated many times thinking, how could he have been so stupid!? I can totally imagine where she is coming from knowing a bit about what she has posted before. Believe me, it does not sound ideal when I say that I am dating someone with two kids, who is older than me, who is in debt, who can't afford to propose to me, ... but it does not paint a whole picture of our relationship. It is difficult to capture the spirit between us and all you are privy to is what I have said here and there. I am trying to be as objective as possible but sometimes I need a vent too. I do not want to defend him - although it has not gone as quickly as I would like, and it does not seem like he has made it the priority that I think it should be sometimes, he is trying hard to sort out his finances. He has reduced his expenses in a variety of ways, as have I, and he has increased his income by taking on translation jobs. Those are concrete actions that someone can do to decrease the flow of money going out, and increase the flow of money coming in. He has recognized that he cannot fix it all on his own and has enlisted the help of a professional. He has also been willing to listen to all of my advice and has taken everything I have said, even when I have been critical, to heart and given my opinions a lot of consideration.

I don't know what else I can ask for - I can either choose to be with him, knowing what it is, or I can say I don't accept this, and I can move out and move on with my life. At this point, the good parts of our relationship still far outweigh the bad. If I ever decide that he is not the one for me, or if I become of the opinion that he is only paying lip service to these debts and not prioritizing making progress on it, then I will have to cut my losses and walk away. And that would be very sad - I do have a track record of ending long term relationships when what people say doesn't add up to what they do. I don't think it will come to that, because judging from his behavior in the past he won't run from his obligations and I should expect that to continue. I have thought very carefully about this relationship and what we both get out of it, and I have not been running to the altar as fast as I can.

It is hard sometimes when I see everyone around me (or at least it seems like that) getting married, buying houses, having babies, and I just think, where's their debt? Where are their student loans? How can they afford to do all of those wonderful things - maybe I am the one who should hire a financial planner! I never thought that all of these things would become important to me, I never thought that I would turn into this cliche. Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond - I appreciate you all. We all walked down different roads and we all got a view of things and all of that is so valuable.

"At any rate, under no circumstances should you help pay for your ring. That also means you dont carry more of the burden for living expenses because that would be just another way of paying for the ring."

I don't necessarily agree with this. I mean, I do understand the sentiment. And it's generally good advice not to move from a spot that is more comfortable and secure into one that's less secure -- But IMO, when two people marry, they become a team. One team. So one joint financial situation. I guess I could never actually "feel married" if our daily finances were separate. My husband's problems ARE my problems and mine are his. (What was mine before marriage is held separate; what was his before is also separate.)

NorCal - Could you see yourself seamlessly merging finances with this man as you comtemplate merging lives? With you assuming his debts and him assuming yours? (You've also got substantial debt, though more favorably structured.) As you correctly point out, whether you keep your daily finances separate or not, getting a mortgage will be a joint issue. And paying for your day-to-day life together will be a joint issues. I mean, how comfortable could your marriage be if one of you didn't have the money that month to pay 'your share' of the bills? Especially if the other partner had 'extra' that month? Or one of you regularly fell short because your job paid less than the other's? And what to do if you have children. Certainly the mother's income drops for a while. (One man I knew with strictly separated finances billed his wife for daycare for their joint kids!)

Just my two cents - But if you're combining finances, I don't see the big deal in contributing to the success of 'the ring fund.' And if you're not planning to combine finances, how deeply can you really be planning to combine lives?

Norcalgirl - sometimes, I think we're living parallel lives. Our situations are almost identical.

Let me ask you something.....did you get your dress already? I wanted to have my dress made. I picked out a pattern and everything. FDH told me I could go ahead and have it started. That was in July. It was finished in August. Still no engagement to this day. Now I have this beautiful dress hanging in my closet and nowhere to wear it. I felt so humiliated. Money and debt are the reasons. Even though we've been together over 6 years. That excuse would've been fine like 4 years ago maybe. But not now. Not after all these years of not fixing it and it just getting worse and worse. Now, I find myself resentful. Resentful at his daughter who he's lavished money on for years; resentful at his family who insisted he take an extremely expensive "bonding" trip; resentful at his truck that sits in the garage all week long, but he pays $700/month on, while we use my car for everything.

I definitely feel like a cliche and wonder if others look at me with pity. One of my best friends told me there's nothing sadder than a man taking a woman out to look at rings and never proposing. So, so, so true.

I'm sure your BF's intentions are good. Mostly poor execution and poor planning. That's how my situation is. I love him and we will get married. But who knows when that will be.

Oh Ashley, I'm sorry.
I don't understand. A marriage license here costs $30, and with that you can get pictures, video, etc. from city hall. An inexpensive ring, perhaps another $30. A dress? $30.

Total cost can easily be under $100.00. Anyone who really wants to get married can get married. I would be bitter, humiliated, etc. too.

I believe that you love him, but do you like him? If he really loved you, he wouldn't humiliate you.

Sweeby, it is hard for me to imagine merging finances with BF if we get married; then again, it is hard for me to imagine merging finances with anyone. My dad and SM don't have blended finances and they are totally merged in life - but that is because they married later in life and each have previous children, he has substantial holdings, etc.

I have read a lot about the three-pot system that blended families use, which is his, hers, and ours and I think that would be preferable. I am scared that if my money is added to BF's pot, so to speak, that my additional income could be considered if BM asks for a recalculation of child support and I although I adore his kids, I don't think I should have to be legally responsible for supporting them. I think it depends on the laws from state to state, and we don't have to get into that here because it has been discussed a lot in other threads, but since I am not informed and haven't sought legal counsel on that issue I am just leery of it. I know that BF grosses approximately one-third more than I do annually (that will even out a little more next spring after my scheduled promotion) but he doesn't bring home much more than I do, so I always just try to consider what he brings home. Sometimes in my pettiest moments I think, gee, would be nice if I could reroute a third of my income to something I need to do and tell him to only consider whatever I had left for our life together. But (a) he would agree and (b) that scenario forgets the fact that I am an adult and I make my choices, not the other way around. So I think, what can we do together with what we have, how can we share and live better.

Maybe I am just controlling and selfish about money in general. I balance my checking account to the cent every single day, and BF has to go online to see if a check even posted on his account weeks ago. WTF!? I just can't live like that.

Ashley, I don't have a dress. I feel sad for you that you are not getting what you want. Do you worry about money and debt too? Maybe I am just old-fashioned, or maybe I am being coy, but until there is a ring on my hand I don't consider myself engaged to him because I would be too ashamed to explain the situation of not having a ring. Maybe that is weird for some, and I'm not a big fantasy person, but I just know how I want things to be. It is kind of funny how I am so official about it, like one moment we wouldn't be engaged and the next we would, but isn't that how it is!?

So no matter how many times I have read wedding etiquette books, and secretly browsed venues and dresses online, I always come back to the conclusion that (a) we are not engaged and (b) even when we would be, a wedding is all going to be too expensive, with our families and friends spread about the world, and I always end up feeling sad. I have told BF many times to straighten out his finances before proposing, and some of that was practical, but maybe some of it was also fear on my part that once I had a ring we would have to get down into the ugly budget details, and discover what kind of wedding we could afford. ?

Geez...maybe this economy is really getting to me, too!

it sounds too much for you, too much stress, but...

money is just that. money. our society puts too much weight on it. yes it is important. but plenty of people stayed in happy life long marriages living in complete poverty. i bet all of us can think of grandparents or greatgrandparents who survived wars, depressions, death, etc and yet were happy.

Buy cheap ring together, do not have big wedding etc. yes if you have extreme difference in managing finances it could be stressful. but i still think that we worry about finances too much, like there is nothing else in life. if you happy go for it, but if you have doubts then maybe you should wait. you are 30. not 60. but whatever you decide don't let money to prevent you from being happy wiht your BF.

Norcalgirl, I agree that the 'three-pot' system works best, especially where there's enough disparity between the partners to warrant some concern or open one or both up to upsets. And I think this is especially true for blended families where there are kids from previous marriages, as you say. Let's not forget that money is the #1 cause of relationship conflict, and it's bad enough when one partner doesn't like how their partner spends their own money! When it's battles over how to spend "our" money, it's even worse because w/o separate funds, there is no individual recourse or alternative to "just do our own thing, live and let live".

I know the question of whether or not to combine funds is a hot topic, with valid points on both sides, but I think you really REALLY have to be not only fully confident in your partner's financial decisions but fully accepting of their financial obligations. It doesn't make you a bad person if you are not, you just maybe have more reason to be cautious than the average bear. I think a fair rule of thumb is that combining finaces is great and fine as long as and up until one or both partners start having serious resentment about where "our" money is going. At that point, it's time to separate things back out. But if there's never any serious disagreement or resentment, then combined finances work fine for those people.

As of now, you are already comfortable with the idea of keeping separate finances, already have valid doubts about his financial situation, and already willing to accept that marriage is primarily about love and MAY or MAY NOT be about improving one's position in life as well. This isn't to say that those who combine finances lack love or are all about position in life! (My mom & SF have always combined finances, and with the exception of one ebay spree my mom went on that my SF got pissed about, they don't have any financial disagreements and it works great for them). But if you're not REALLY sure, you should keep things separate, so you don't end up fighting over money and lose sight of the LOVE part.

FWIW, I think there is definite truth to the idea that the bigger and more lavish the wedding, the more likely it is that the marriage may not be all that great. NO offense to anyone who happens to be the exception to this rule, who had a lavish wedding and still have a great marriage... but often the big fancy wedding is compensatory. Every happy, enduring couple I know are ones who had low-key, simple, even DIY weddings. My mom & SF married in their friend's backyard under the chuppah they made themselves; my Dad & SM (they are happy with *each other*, at least I hope that much with all the aggravation I deal with from her, I hope they are at least happy together) got married in my Dad's chemo clinic (okay, it's kinda creepy, but my point is LOW-KEY & inexpensive); my best friend's wedding was on her friend's beautiful farm in Colorado, and we made the decorations and friends played music; another good friend of mine married her husband in the courthouse and they are still truly in love after 15 years together. Whatever the price, the best wedding is the one where you're bursting with love & excitement for each other. And if you can find a way to afford just a little bit more, it's even better when a group of people you love are around you, getting tanked and having a grand old time in your honor.

haven't read all the responses, so please forgive if I'm re-hashing...

sounds like bf/fiance has no track record of financial responsibility, & since the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, if I were in your shoes, I'd declare a time-out til he pulls himself together, including maintaining his own separate place of residence.

"Do you worry about money and debt too?"

YES! That's the biggest thing in our life right now. It all came to a head when we realized the pool had a ginormous leak in it (in a pipe under the concrete) and couldn't afford to have it fixed. That was about the time he told me I should have the dress made. Then, all the plans he had made went down the drain (or the pipe,lol).

I really didn't consider us engaged, either. But I knew it was coming and, since we wanted to elope, we wanted to be able to do it on short notice, seeing as how FSD lives in another state now. I told him I don't just want to decide to get married. That I wanted an old-fashioned proposal. But, honestly, for us, I think that's asking too much.

I'm old-fashioned, like you. Heck, I told him I didn't want to move in unless we were engaged. He promised me that it was coming soon. That was a year ago this month. There's always been something come up that is more of a priority to spend money on. For instance, the pool leak in August. Now, he has to have a root canal done on an absessed tooth. It never ends.

I love him, dearly. He's a great man with a big heart. We definitely have different ideas on finances, but I don't think it's something counseling can fix. There are a ton of debt-counseling resources out there. Maybe, if you both are willing to work on it, you could try the Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University (http://www.daveramsey.com/). I know A LOT of people who sing the praises of this. We are going to take the home version.

Sylvia "the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, if I were in your shoes, I'd declare a time-out til he pulls himself together, including maintaining his own separate place of residence. "

Good response! I agree!

"have a hard time taking people seriously when they talk about being engaged and have no ring"

I find this statement very strange. If two people agree to get married, they are engaged. Jewelry is not a requirement. Some people don't care to wear much jewelry. And some people are more concerned about things like home downpayments or paying off debt that spending money on a ring.

so true mary! also in some cultures engagement ring is not a requirement. people get rings to exchange at the wedding, no engagement ring.

even wedding rings are not a requirement. My parents never wear wedding rings. I have never seen them wearing the rings. i even think my mom lost hers. but they are very much married. one set of my grandparents never had wedding rings, they got married during times people could barely afford food. so a ring is just a ring. not a sign of commitment.

I think a ring isnt necessary, if someone is engaged, but a date is.

I think if you are living with someone already, and there is no ring, OR no date, you arent really engaged.

I wish I had a dollar for every story I have heard of women who live with men, thinking it is leading to marriage, while the man strings them along because they dont really want to get married, they like living together.

I would insist on a date, if the ring is not forthcoming. Or I would move out and keep my own place, until and unless he realizes he truly does want to marry.

A man who truly loves a woman, and wants to marry her, does not disrespect her by stringing it out for years with no visible outward sign of committment.

BUt thats just my old fashioned, not so humble opinion.

Update...

I had a long talk with BF last night. It was a very difficult conversation in which he agreed with tears in his eyes that I was right and he was sorry that he didn't have money to buy me a ring as soon as he'd said he would.

I told him that I was frustrated that we moved in together under one circumstance (getting engaged with a ring in February, which is what he had said) and because of unexpected increases in his bills and financial problems, and my own somewhat cold feet about potentially becoming a SM, things have been delayed and delayed.

Although I am able to adapt to changing circumstances this is (a) embarrassing me in front of my friends and family and (b) making me feel like a hypocrite. As far as his side, he told me June, then September, then Christmas... I keep oscillating between hope and dread, and then thinking, fine, I don't want the stupid ring anyway, just forget the whole thing. So what if we get engaged? Because I am not marrying him with 5-figure debt anyway, and it will take him 2-3 years to get out of it, so we might as well just work on our conflict resolution skills and stick this out together.

His finances are being reviewed by his new financial planner who is going to make a suggestion to him on a couple of different ways he could go as far as a combination of debt snowballing, debt reduction and debt consolidation this coming Friday afternoon. I looked at his monthly budget with him last night and I have to admit that even I was shocked. There are too many minimum payments per biweekly pay period that are just too high to squeeze all in - I honestly don't know how he has been making it, and we live together!! I am surprised he never tried to borrow money from me - but glad too that he is working it out on his own.

Although I did consider moving out as something of a "motivational tool" for him to clean up his financial act, and showing him that I deserve better, I felt at the end that it would just make me materialistic and selfish. He already knows that I am at the end of my rope!! He offered to move out and continue paying rent and bills to the end of our lease, but in my heart that really wasn't what I wanted. I just want him to be honest and not overly-optimistic about his situation.

He is in a bad place - some of it is his own fault, but not all. We do not have joint debt, we do not have children together, and I am getting done the things I need to do. It is not going to hurt me to stick by his side when in 90% of our relationship area he is doing great.

Also, at the end of the day, he has been doing everything I have asked him to do, i.e. involve a professional or team of professionals because it is clearly beyond his realm. After much discussion, I decided that we should continue to live together, and work on getting mostly out from underneath our debt over the next year, and not discuss marriage or getting engaged again until that time. I just don't see it happening. By next year at this time I will be out of debt myself, other than student debt, and will begin saving for a house. If there has not been significant progress in his financial picture (his money management style as much as anything else) I told him that it will really be a dealbreaker for me.

He was not thrilled with that but agreed. I know that he has been very humbled and embarrassed by all this, and frankly he put up with a lot of humiliation that a lot of guys wouldn't have. I said a lot of things I wanted to say, but I also said a couple of things that I should not have said, and I regret that - namely rubbing it in that he did everything for his first wife to have a big diamond and be a SAHM, and all I get is the debris that's left. He should have told me that was a cheap shot, and challenged me whether deep down I wanted to really set a date with or without a ring, but he just said he was sorry and that he understood whatever way I went. He has proposed to me 100 times, and still somehow I don't feel like it is settled. Summary: I'm either a victim, or I make a decision based on how it feels to live in my skin every day. So I made a decision.

I didn't get much sleep last night.

sounds like you had a nice conversation, he knows where you stand now. but I still do nto understand why wouldn't he buy a ring? inexpensive one. I have white gold earings wiht small diamonds. They look very expensive but I think they were maybe about 800 regular price, and they were on sale for 400. can't he find a ring of that type, he surely can afford couple of hundreds worth ring. why buying expensive stuff?