Cuddle, you are absoutley, right, many of us, including me, value our family pictures, and would put on a high priority if we had to evacuate. But I dont think this changes my opinion on pictures of parent as gifts. Sharing pictures and DVDs etc is what you do as family. I dont think it best to label it as a gfit. Why in the world new SM and Dad would want to do this? In my family, we stopped with gifts for adults (except I help my DD get her dad something becuse he is the worlds biggest baby).

And Geri, I am sorry about your mom.

"It would make me feel weird, like she is trying to say that she controls the connection between me and my dad."

Yeah, I was kind of thinking along those lines, too, but knowing that my experience with my particular SM was coloring that some. I think if my SF gave me a lovely photo of my mom as a gift, I wouldn't see it that way at all. Just being honest, and perhaps this means my perception is skewed, but it also points to the importance of the relationship between the individuals involved in determining what is apppropriate. In thinking about it, if my SF had given me a pic of my mom right after they were married, and it was from their wedding day, and it was my Christmas or Hanukkah present, I probably wouldn't have taken it too well. (Even though my Mom & SF's wedding included me as a vital part of the ceremony and I even got a mini ring made out of the same material their rings were made of!) And like you say, it would have felt like he's sending me a message that *he* decides how much I access or see (literally) my mom and like she's something that's 'his' to 'grant' me access to. That may be reading an awful lot into it, but I'm just trying to trace it at the most intense, viscerally uncomfortable level in a context where there is definite tension. Much of this IS reading a lot of drama into the idea of a photo of Dad as a gift IN GENERAL. It really is the context, timing and individuals involved that is crucial.

I think at best, if the relationship between everyone is basically good, it can be that statement of "here's a picture of that wonderful man we both love... I want you to have a bit of him near you, too." But even that, if not careful, runs that risk of being seen as the Dad is something that is up to SM to 'share' (or, possibly, 'not share'). It also potentially runs the risk of saying "I really couldn't think of ---or be bothered to care about---anything about you other than your Dad, and I only know you as a product of your Dad because your Dad is who is important to me, not you." But this only if the picture of Dad completely replaces any/all gifts for a special occasion like Christmas.

The occasion (Christmas, the holidays) itself is notoriously 'loaded', let's not any of us forget that. So some of the drama is beyond ANYONE's control. When you give something to someone casually, it doesn't carry the same potential drama or statement factor that a well-thought-out, well-wrapped 'official' present for an 'official' holiday does. Which is why when I've bought frames for my Dad for pix of myself ---a very loaded issue--- it's just been casually, picking one or two frames up at Big Lots when I visit, when it's fresh on my mind and I happen to be there, and any new pix I give him are just handed to him at random times on visits because it takes some of the sting and drama out of the rejection risk I'm taking if these pictures will be 'lost' by the next visit. That's why, Geri, I suggested that idea for you: not just to take any 'sting' out of it for SDs but also because YOU are laying yourself on the line a lot less when it's casual vs. formal gift-giving.

I am sorry but this all just seems so silly. The woman wants to give a couple of Adults a lovely picture of their father for christmas. It seems very nice and quite thoughtful if you ask me. I see it more along the lines of I know you treasure your father here is a beautiful momento for you. I am sorry but if they choose to take something done in kindness as some sort of skewed and/or vindictive, controlling or whatever else negative thing that can be thought up of then so be it. If that is truly the way that they feel about something like that then they would probably find fault with whatever she decided. It takes a lot of energy to create ill will out a gift...especially one done in kindness and thoughtfulness... alot more energy than saying thank you and appreciating the fact that she thought enough to give a gift she thought they would like.

I never in my wildest dreams thought there could be contention over giving a photo as a gift for christmas or any holiday for that matter. I think she is being more than thoughtful by putting her foot down to not include herself in the pic. I LOVE getting framed pictures for the holidays or any occasion really. I have an entire hallway and dining room filled with pictures of family and friends. And, as I said before, I know my family LOVES getting pictures of us and/or the kids for Christmas...particularly my grandmother. It allows her family to surround her even when we are not there. Whatever happened to it's the thought that counts. She "thought" the adult sd's would like a nice pic of their father since they dont have one... how sad that a something nice can be turned so ugly.

Our extended family gives pictures as gifts. My grandmother gave each of her children a professionally done portrait of her as a gift one year, and that is one of my mother's favorite gifts of all time. My mom was so excited to get it. I know if my mom gave me a portrait of herself, I would love that as a gift, far more than the other things she buys me.

If I was the original poster, I wouldn't encourage my husband to give this particular picture to his children as a gift, because of the association with the wedding. Even if it doesn't look like a wedding portrait, if his children said, "Oh how nice, when did you get this taken, Dad?", that would be a bit awkward.

However, I think if the dad wants to give his daughters a picture of himself, that would be a lovely gift they would treasure.

This thread has been very instructive for me. I had no idea so many people didn't consider photographs to be a nice gift. They are my favorite gifts, and it just never occurred to me that other people wouldn't feel the same way. I agree that the best thing to do is find a gift that fits the interest/hobbies of the recipient. For our family (at least the grownups) a portrait or photograph would fit that criteria, but I can see that others might not see it that way.

Well said mom of 4. I would consider it a better gift than most other things I can think of. Seeing the smiling face of your loved ones is really a gift of love. I also don't understand finding malice in such a gift. Every year we receive those family newsletters for relatives that so many people seems to hate, and the postcard family Christmas pics. I love all of these and pull them out for great memories here and there. It's seriously got me thinking about what we will give this X-mas. I think the gifts will be lighter on dollars and heavier on what really matters.

Cuddle, Mom of 4, and Daisy-

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who is happy to receive a photo of a family member or a friend. I can't even imagine questioning the intention of a gift like that or actually any gift I receive. I only thought that DH was insensitive to the fact that he would even give his DD's a more "wedding looking" photo that included me in it. In fact, the only reason why I brought it up in the first place was because I couldn't imagine what was going on in his head. I believe under the best of circumstances those young women would never want a picture of either one of their parents and a new spouse in
any sort of formal setting.

And, I don't think October is too early begin thinking about Christmas gifts. I usually finish shopping by the end of September.

I think KK had the best and certainly the easiest solution; and I don't think she even realized it: "In my family, we stopped with gifts for adults" I think you have solved the problem.

Thanks everyone,
Geri

Geri,

It has been the best stress releiver -- now we spend time with each other over the holidays. I highly recommend it.

And maybe the "packaging" is the issue. Its not the photos, its calling it a gift. My older sister is the one who suggested we move to gifless holidays. Of course people show up with "little" things -- but the focus is much different.

Geri, I'm so sorry about your mother.

Cuddlepoo, your post brought some good tears to my eyes.

My paternal grandparents, the only ones I had, were both born before 1900.

They never had a car, neither one of them had a "real" job with a paycheck twice a month & a W2 form.

They raised 12 children during some very hard times:
Great Depression, influenza & scarlet fever epidemics, World War II.

Papa, my grandfather, survived rheumatic fever, but he couldn't work for more than a couple of hours at a time after that, so Mama & the kids picked cotton, & she nursed sick families (nobody else would go near you if you had influenza), boiling sheets & clothing, cooking, scalding the dishes.

During the war, all 4 sons were overseas, as were the sons-in-law-I think there were 4 or 5 at that time.

By the time my brothers & I came along, Papa & Mama were elderly, white-haired folks with hands misshapen from a lifetime of hard work & backs bent from a lifetime of care.

They were the best things in our childhoods.

Papa died in 1965 & Mama in 1969.

One autumn, about 1990, my aunt found a roll of undeveloped film in the pocket of one of her old sweaters & took it to the drugstore to have the pictures printed.

One of them was a photo of Papa & Mama one Thanksgiving morning.

The sky was a beautiful clear blue, & you could almost see the sawdust on Papa's glasses (there was *always* sawdust on Papa's glasses).

Mama was wearing a dress that I at that time "owned" in the form of the pieces of it she had sewn into a quilt.

Her beautiful white hair, that her daughters would cut off into a bob when she got too frail to wash it, was coiled up in a braid at the crown of her head, & she was smiling.

In her arms she held a pink camillia, in full bloom, in a 5-gallon bucket, that someone had evidently given her for her garden.

When my aunt gave me a copy of that photo for Christmas that year, I burst into tears.

She asked me to take my brother, the leather-wearing, motorcycle-riding, hard-drinking, bar-fighting (at that time) tough guy, his copy of it.

When I gave it to him on Christmas morning...
he burst into tears, too.

My aunt never had a lot of money to buy presents, & most years I was glad to get a Christmas card, but I really do think that that was the nicest, most meaningful Christmas present I ever got.

Beautiful memories;
thanks for reminding me.

But the thing is she herself brought up the connection to the wedding and potential ill/wierd feelings when she posed the question to this forum. She described how she was struggling to find a balance between mitigating the harshness of the attitude her DH had about pushing the issue while at the same time being on his page and supportive of him. She's no doubt in a bit of a pickle, and I personally don't envy her position right now having to make these decisions that SEEM somewhat picayune. But none of us can kid ourselves and play completely, innocently unaware of any potential for it to be somewhat contentious. ESPECIALLY since the couple in question has already decided ---for whatever reason--- not to display their own wedding photos in their own home. I gathered that's because they are acutely aware (even if it's a bit misplaced) of the effect that photos in an emotionally loaded context can have. Therefore they both know going into it that there is this potential and so it kind of becomes more of an experiment, or a test, than a gift. 'Under certain conditions, will or will not the SDs exhibit the hypothesized reaction of distemper?' is what we'll all be waiting to see. The SDs' reactions will be gauged and evaluated, and the results will either confirm or deny any number of existing hypotheses about their behavior.

It would be different if it truly never occured to anyone that there was potential for the photo gift in question to be taken in a less-than-great way, but that's the very premise of Geri's own dilemma. And she is right to carefully weigh it before deciding to do it, which is why she specifically asked about it on here. And since she's asking, a number of us have offered what our honest opinion is on how the SD's will take it. She is certainly free to either take the advice or leave it, it is her decision to make, not ours, and I do trust that her *intentions* are good and she wants it to be a nice gesture. But whether in fact it will actually be received as a nice gesture is what's up for debate on this thread.
And she has heard several opinions about it, which she is of course free to choose from. But now that she has heard the responses from a number of people (including the perspective of a few adult stepdaughters) about what she risks by giving that photo at that time, she can't say she wasn't warned if she opts to do it and it goes over like a lead balloon. She may be disappointed, she may be disenchanted with human nature, but she absolutely wouldn't be surprised and I would also hope she wouldn't blame THEM. I sincerely hope that it wouldn't go badly if she does it, and I'll be happy to hear in January if it turned out better than I gave it credit for.

KKNY, I understand you wouldn't want this for a gift, but certainly some would! My FIL has done so much research on his family geneology and old family pics and such a treasure to him. Soon enough these new pics will be old family pics that someone will be thrilled to have. Family history can be so important. DH's late grandmother sold the family home when she went into care (in the mid 1980's or so). She sold the family home to do this which had been in the family for over 100 years for about $40k (we wish we had it now!). The bright spot is that it was bought by an amatuer historian that understood the home's history and it's association with the structure that had been the local, family-owned carriage building business just down the road (he toured us around the house during the GM's 100th birthday mega-get-together). We had old pics of the house, the carriage business, and the family that lived at that time and that means the world to us. Those current pics will shortly be 'family history' that someone treasures.

"and the postcard family Christmas pics."

This makes me remember the year we got a picture postcard with my husband's relatives pets. Instead of using a picture of their family, they had their cat & dog's portrait taken with Santa hats. It was cute, but definitely not a picture postcard we treasured... I have to admit, we didn't save that one.

Every year, I bake several types of cookies, make candy & fudge & give everyone a tin of homemade goodies. Oh, I do some shopping, mostly for the kids, who are all teens or grown. My SD is the youngest at 9. This year, I am trying to talk my entire family into doing a family portrait... all four of us kids w/ spouses & children (and their spouses/SO) & grandchildren. There are 25 in all so it might take some coordinating & cooperation. The idea was to give both my parents a portrait with everyone. (and of course copies for anyone that wants one)

Geri,

I would also caution you re instituting or suggesting changes to family traditions your first year of SM. Do yourself a favor, and give yourself time.

sylviatexas, I was crying when I wrote that and I'm again crying. Having lost a brother that was onlhy 43 when he died maybe I'm super-sensitive, but I'm down from crying daily at that time to crying maybe once a month now. Seeing a pic of a dead loved-one is something that I can't even explain. I hug his pic, I cry, I give it a kiss and tell him I'm sorry I didn't see him more when he was alive. It's made me super-sensitive to living loved ones that I want to see, hug and love while they are here. I'm still crying now, but that's the price of having people close to you that you will eventually lose, love hurts in the very end.

"It's made me super-sensitive to living loved ones that I want to see, hug and love while they are here."

This is a snippet from a thread on the Grieving Forum:

"I have come to realise that in this life the only valuable commodity we have is TIME.
No amount of money can buy back a minute from last week.
In memory of my Momma, please be very wise in who you spend your time with."

We'd all do well to embroider that on a sampler & hang it by our mirror to read every time we brush our teeth.

Here is a link that might be useful: the whole thread

Serenity-
But the thing is she herself brought up the connection to the wedding and potential ill/wierd feelings when she posed the question to this forum. She described how she was struggling to find a balance between mitigating the harshness of the attitude her DH had about pushing the issue while at the same time being on his page and supportive of him.

My only question in the initial post was this: Does anyone have any ideas why this man doesn't think his kids would be offended receiving a "couples" photo of us?

KK- I have been living in this house for several years and a part of the family since the mid-90's. I don't think I need to give myself time and I am not changing anything anyway.

Wow, I'm quite bummed now. Hugs to you all and pass that hug on to all you love.

I also don't think it is a great idea to give both girls the same gift. My kids' father has a habit of doing that - one year he gave two of the older kids the exact same inspirational book, which was very odd to begin with since he has never been an inspirational book kind of guy, with exactly the same "personal" inscription. They were insulted because they thought it implied that he couldn't be bothered to see them as individuals.

It kind of reminded me of the joke that Tom Lehrer had on one of his records (because I AM of a certain age) - he received a letter from someone that said something like "My dearest, I am madly in love with you. Marry me or I will kill myself." Lehrer said "I was rather upset by that until I took another look at the envelope and noticed it was addressed to 'occupant.'"

Sylvia, that was beautiful.

*sniffles* Sylvia.....*sniffles*.....that was so heart-warming!

I never had any grandfathers, but I had 2 grandmothers that were the most amazing women ever!

My maternal GM started the first Southern Baptist church in San Francisco. She was truly an amazing woman. She was turning 66 the day I was born so we always shared our birthdays.

I have 2 girl cousins close to my age and living in the same vicinity. Me, my sister and my 2 cousins would go to her house and have sleepovers. All 5 of us in one bed.

And the 5 of us were having a "sleepover" the day she died at 92. She was in hospice and I decided, at the last minute, to stay overnight (since someone has to always be there). My cousins and my sister did, too.

We were there, having a sleepover, when she took her last breath.

Oh what a deep and incredibly moving experience!

That was almost 4 years ago.

Last Thanksgiving, my aunt gave all of us girls a photo of GM when she was only about 70 (and a very young-looking 70).

She was sitting in a chair and smiling happily as if someone had just told her a joke.

I started to cry because my heart was so full of love and admiration for her and I treasure that picture!

As it gets closer to the holidays ... you will see that IMA was dead on ... the laundry list the older SC come up with and returning of gifts the "evil SMs" buy the children.... the wish lists on 8x10 pieces of paper both sides ...

Geri ... let hubby pick out gifts for his kids and you give then what you want "not as a gift of course" throw it at them and say " hey I got this for you, do what you want with it"

or keep the picutes until he drops dead and at the funeral hand the pics to them maybe then they will appreciate it.

My parents who were civil to each other after their divorce went and had "candid" photos done of themselves to give to their children... my mother was always a "planner" ... "when I die I don't want an open casket so dad and I had photos taken so you can display those at our funerals instead of an open casket!!! "

I was 16 when I got the pictures.
My father died a year later.
My mother 9 years later.

kkny says "Lets throw the question out here -- how many people have received AS A GIFT -- pictures of a parent?"

I have. My parents, who were not big on having their picture made, had their portrait done for my brother & me for Christmas one year. It was an 11X14 and at the time I kept it on my wall. Now that I have a blended family of 6 children & spouses and by the end of the year will have 18 grandchildren I don't want any pictures larger than 5X7. I still keep a 5X7 of the same portrait on my computer desk and am proud I have it since they are deceased. I manage to have small pictures of the entire family in a collage in my bedroom with a few 5X7's in the family room. Can you imagine what my house would look like if I had large pictures of the entire family out?

Gerina, my DH has the same attitude yours does ~ if the kids don't like a picture of us together they can get over it.

And we don't do adult presents either. That would be very tiring.

When my siblings and I agreed to stop with presents for adults, we did it out of love for all involved -- we just wanted to spend more time with each other, and we were well into adulthood, not in our 20s.

I'm going to ask a hypothetical question, not to stir the pot or piss anyone off but to encourage folks to view the all-important (imho) CONTEXT of the photo gift in a different light:

If context, timing or giver doesn't matter and the only factor that 'should' be relevant is the fact that it's a lovely photo of a loved one, how would you feel as SM if you received from your SD a lovely photo of your DH for Christmas (which just so happened to be taken in BM's living room, during the reception BM hosted for SD's wedding, which you were not invited to)? After all, even though SD might know that BM, and her own wedding, may be a particularly sore point for YOU, the point is that it's a wonderful photo of **DH**, one you'll treasure forever regardless... right?

Please answer honestly, even if it is only to yourself. Given that there have been accounts of SMs getting rid of and getting all upset by photos in certain contexts (even when they weren't necessarily 'couples pix' of BM and DH TOGETHER) and given what we all know to be the sensitive nature of photos and blended families in general, I think to act as though context is irrelevant runs the risk of not only being disingenuous but hypocritical.

I don't see what the big deal is.

I think it sounds thoughtful. Geri took the time and attention to notice that her SDs like to display family photos, and that they don't have many/any of their dad. So she would like to give them a nice framed photo, as she said, not as the only gift, but as one of multiple gifts. Her idiot DH is the one who jumped on her nice idea of the picture to try to turn it into something to push them into "accepting" the wedding/marriage. And she overruled him. Good for her.

If the SDs were not the type of people to display family photos, then it would not be a thoughtful gift, but since they are the kind of people who do like to do that, then yes, it is a nice gift, imo.

And i don't understand everyone who says she could give the picture, just not as a "Christmas gift", what is the point of the distinction? Is there really a difference between if Geri gives her SDs, say, 3 wrapped "Christmas gifts" and a framed photo of their dad as an "aside", or the exact same 3 other gifts plus the exact same photo, all 4 wrapped and given as "christmas gifts"?

The only big deal is the CONTEXT. And that ---I dare say--- it would be deemed a big deal if the situation were reversed. I can almost GUARANTEE that it would be seen as at least *kind of* a big deal if it was the day after Christmas, and I had posted the question I just asked under a fake screen name, as an "SM" whose "SD" had just given me as a Christmas present a pic of my husband taken at one of the wedding events for her very recent wedding which I was not invited to (let's even totally remove the hypothetical "BM" from the equation ---let's say the picture was taken at the restaurant the evening of "SD"'s wedding). Some respondents might have felt like it was nothing, some might have felt like it was "SD"'s way of making "SM" feel like part of the family or make up for the prior exclusion, but I am almost certain that a good many posters would have felt like it was too sensitive a context in which to give that particular photo. That the fact that it was a memento of an event that "SM" was excluded from and over which she was justifiably upset rendered it not so "innocent". Some may have even felt that the "SD" was rubbing the "SM"'s face in the fact that she was not present at the wedding. Some may have said it was goading or passive-aggressive or tacky. Many would have called it "manipulative".

For the last time, we are not talking about photos-as-gifts IN A GENERAL SENSE or Martha Stewart kind of way. We are talking about a specific photo taken in a specific context within a larger context of a specifically very sensitive subject among all members of this particular blended family, given by a specific person to specific individuals at a specific time. Even the contexts in which this specific subject is being debated (GW Stepfamily board, from "SM" or "SD" perspective) arguably affects the way it's being viewed.

Without being hypervigilant (and there is always a fine line), it's dangerous to take everything at surface, face value or expect others to, especially in situations we know are sensitive for others, and even more especially when those situations are sensitive to us too. Context is very important to others, even if it isn't thought important (or even if it's thought ridiculous or 'hypersensitive') by some. Seemingly neutral or even wonderful items in one context may just simply not be so neutral or wonderful in other contexts. Is a cartoon of Obama with some fried chicken and watermelon "just a lovely and heartfelt drawing of a nice African-American man and some delicious foodstuffs"? Is an invite to a baby shower the most thoughtful thing one could do for a woman who just miscarried? Is a splendidly delicious and lovingly homemade peanut butter fudge ice cream cake the best gift for a woman currently struggling to lose "that last five pounds"? Is the "Ho! Ho! Ho!" sweatshirt I was soooo tempted (but thankfully CHOSE NOT) to buy for my SM last Christmas (the one I was excluded from and angry about) "just a cheerful holiday greeting"... or was it something else? Might I have been able to claim innocence about any double-meaning to it if confronted? Might I have been able to turn the tables on her and imply that she was hyper-sensitive, hyper-critical, looking for a fight and ---what's more--- lacking in holiday and family feeling if she dared question why I chose that particular sweatshirt at that particular time? Oh yes! But did I think it wise or mature or ultimately the right thing to do to risk giving something that might be taken hard and cause even more family tension? Absolutely not. We have feelings, temptations, the desire to assert ourselves and do things our way and have everyone like it in almost every situation. But we also have options, short-term vs. long-term considerations, responsibility and accountability for the choices we make ---which we often can't undo once we've chosen them. That's my point.

"And i don't understand everyone who says she could give the picture, just not as a "Christmas gift", what is the point of the distinction?"

I was in no way saying that she shouldn't give pictures as gifts at Christmas or any other occasion for that matter. All I was saying is that Christmas is so close to the wedding and current awkward issues that it might be better to wait for another holiday. I just think that since the emotions are volitile already, giving an emotional gift at this time could possibly make things more volitile. I think the "point of distinction" is whenever nerves aren't so close to the surface. It's not about giving the pictures as much as it is about the timing.

I've held off responding for a long time now, but think I'll jump in now.

I'm one who would love a family photo received as a gift. I've received them in the past and given them also. So my initial response was right in line with Gerina's -- That a photo of Dad that did not appear to have been taken at the wedding would be a lovely gesture, but that a wedding photo of the two of them would be 'in your face' passive agressive.

However - I've since changed my mind, and here's why:

Silversword and Serenity touched on something gut-level with the suggestion that somehow having StepMom give Dad's kids a picture of Dad sends a subtle message that StepMom is 'allowing' the kids to have some of Dad -- that she is the 'gatekeeper' now. That she can allow contact and she can also take it away.

Yeah - it's subtle, and twisted and wrong and 'their problem - not yours.' But on some level, it may be there. And if there's even a chance the kids might experience that same gut-level reaction, then I'd give the Dad-only photo in a much more casual way rather than wrapped at Christmas (even as one of several gifts.)

Better to err on the side of caution.

Actually, Ashley-- wasn't talking about your comment-- timing i understand-- it's the idea that it's tacky to give as a gift, but ok to give, as long as you don't call it a gift. Seems silly to make that kind of distinction. SDs will either like the pic or not who cares if it comes wrapped up with a bow?

Serenity:

"For the last time, we are not talking about photos-as-gifts IN A GENERAL SENSE or Martha Stewart kind of way. We are talking about a specific photo taken in a specific context within a larger context of a specifically very sensitive subject among all members of this particular blended family, given by a specific person to specific individuals at a specific time. Even the contexts in which this specific subject is being debated (GW Stepfamily board, from "SM" or "SD" perspective) arguably affects the way it's being viewed."

Exactly.

I would love a pic of my dad, grandparents, cousins, friends, etc. And I'm sure the Skids would too. But from a woman they are not welcoming into the family for the sole reason that she married their dad? In this specific situation, I don't think it's a good idea.

silver, I don't think that's the situation. SD's are not "not welcoming" her into the family. She's been living with dad for years. SD's were upset he ran off and got married without telling them. Regardless of what he thought their reaction was going to be, he didn't give them an opportunity to object or embrace the idea. I see the main problem is between dad and his daughters.... lack of trust & communication. I don't see that his daughters don't like Geri, although they may not have wanted him to get married to ANYONE. Often, kids aren't personally against the step parent, they don't want their parent to be with anyone... whether they are young kids or adult children. Then, there are kids that are happy because their parent is happy, so they don't get upset. It just depends on the kid.

As to CONTEXT of the photo. If someone is LOOKING for a reason to take offense, they will consider the context, they will consider who took the picture, they will consider anything they have to, in order to find a reason not to like the picture or to take offense that it was given by a certain person. If they want to read into it, a hidden message that is not there (that SM controls relationship with dad or SM's putting it 'in your face') then they will carry over those thoughts to anything SM does. There have been a few times, DH tells SD no when I might have said yes, but she is certain he says no because I control him. But, that's all about perception.

Serenity herself said it would make a difference whether her SF gave it to her as opposed to her SM. So, the relationship between the giver & receiver matters too.

How can a child balk at getting a picture of their parent? A child that is going to be offended by getting a picture of dad because it's from SM, is probably going to be offended by ANY gift SM gets them. If that's the case, get them nothing. If the relationship is not hostile, there is no reason not to give them a nice photo of dad.

This whole thread is giving me a headache. Oldest SD had a bday recently I gave a nice and thoughtful gift and I'm still waiting for a thank you, but then I'm still waiting for a thank you from her for last year too. The very nice $100+ watch I got her for her HS graduation, she liked, but bazitched about it because she needed to take it to a jeweler to have links removed. She never wore it. She also loaned her camera, which DH gave to her for HS grad, to a friend one week after she received it. The friend said she lost it and SD refused to ask her to replace it and didn't seem to care one way or another. I bring all of this up because this thread got me to thinking about this person's lack of gratitude and appreciation. You know what, she's just not worth my consideration and thoughtfulness. I told DH that I am going to take him, SD's and MIL out for dinner and that's my gift. In the morning their dinner will end up, metaphorically speaking, in the same place where everything else I get them, pic or not, goes.

Ima, you may be right. My impression is that the kids aren't too welcoming to her by what the OP wrote:

"The oldest SD has said no more than hello to me about four times since our return three weeks ago. I doubt she would like a pic of me for xmas"

I wouldn't balk at getting a picture of my father from someone. But, in the beginning of my dad/sm relationship, if she had given me a pic I would not have received it well. That's my 2 cents from a skid.

And, I don't think that you can say getting a picture of your parent from a s-parent is the same as getting any gift. A picture of your parent can be very personal, and to a child who is already feeling on the outside getting something like that could be awkward and bring up weirdness. If my SM had given me a card with a $25 kmart gift card I would not have read anything into the gift and said thank you. If she had given a picture, I would not have been comfortable.

NOW that they have been married 10+ years, if she shared a picture I'd be grateful. But that's after time has passed. I just think there are too many emotions, everything is too fresh for a gift like this.

I agree that the relationship between giver/receiver matters. If my aunt gave me a pic of my dad I'd be thrilled. But S-parents and S-kids have very tentative relationships often, and I think it would be prudent not to push too hard in the beginning.

"If my SM had given me a card with a $25 kmart gift card I would not have read anything into the gift and said thank you."

Some Skids might read into it "That beotch!" because it's Kmart and not Macy's. or it's $25.. how cheap!!!! My own sister was that way with my SM... always keeping score. That's what I meant that it may not matter WHAT she gives, if the receiver is determined to not like it, they will find some way to turn it into a negative.

I am the type of person that would also say thank you and not be offended. At least she thought of me & got me something. That's just my nature.

And there's also the possibility that no matter what the giver gives, the recipient will be scrutinized for ungratefulness and maybe even penalized for such before the gift has been given. Said presumption of ungratefulness may even be grounds for determining that the recipient doesn't deserve a gift at all. After all, they will have so rudely rejected your thoughtfulness!

This is similar to the phenomenon of scrutinizing visitors to one's house ---based on whatever they happen to say or not say, or even think or not think--- for disapproval and giving them credit and/or blame for what you choose to display or not display within your own walls. Said presumption of disapproval may even be grounds for determining that they don't deserve to come over at all. After all, they will have so rudely censored you in your own home!

It's also similar to the phenomenon of scrutinizing someone's reaction to your new, sudden and previously secret wedding for hatred and rejection of you personally, again regardless of anything they actually say or do or don't say or don't do. Said presumption of hatred/rejection may even be grounds for determining that you will remove yourself from the picture (literally and figuratively) because you have decided they hate you so much. As well as being grounds for determining that once you have done that, that you've erased all of the mixed or negative feelings they can possibly have about it and none others will be considered relevant. So they better not have any more problems with anything. After all, they will have so harshly rejected you out of the picture!

Serenity-

You guys have picked apart my intentions and raked them over the coals with a fine-toothed comb and in fact never addressed the initial question. This only leads me to believe that if SD's secretly harbor any resentments toward me, as you not so secretly (at least not here)have for yours, they will do the same thing with whatever I give them. So, how else do you think I should feel?

That being said, your most recent post is a two way street.

Geri, I would have thought it was nice of my SM to give me a framed photo of my dad as a Christmas gift, even back when they were first married and we didn't always get along.
I think it's a nice idea.
And, TBH, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't with your SDs, but my opinion is that it's better to be damned for doing something nice. So I think you should give them the nice framed photos (different frames to suit their tastes) and a short note taped to the back - something like "Merry Christmas ____! A daughter's relationship with her father is such a treasure, so I thought you might like this photo of your dad. Take care, Geri"

That's what I would have liked when my dad and SM first got married, anyhow.

For what it's worth, I truly, genuinely hope that SDs will accept the gift graciously, whatever you choose to give them. If they don't accept it graciously, I hope that you will not make any additional assumptions about their overall character or what they are feeling about you personally. It troubles me to think that you already have made several assumptions about their feelings, all of them with the negative end result of punishing YOURSELF most of all. You have restricted yourself in your own home with what you display about your own marriage. You have decided to remove your own image from the photo gift because you decided for yourself that you were the sole objectionable issue of their father's wedding. Now you have decided, for certain, that the SDs will not accept ANY gift graciously. YOU own all of those choices, and since they are mostly self-censoring and self-punishing, I'd make sure they were based on actual reality and not assumptions or inductions into what SDs actually think, feel, say or do. Again, you're mainly hurting yourself if your assumptions are wrong.

And I hope that I and others have not painted such a potentially gloom-and-doom scenario that you decide not to give them *any* gift just based on our worst-case-scenario warnings here. If you give the photo gift and they really love it, I will be happy to take a personal lesson from that story.

I'll keep it simple as I'm a adult stepchild and a step parent.

I think it's a very nice gift from you to the Sd's.
I think your putting way to much stress into a nice thoughtful gift. I would love to get a nice picture of my mother and stepfather together. Or one of either of them seperate. Photos are very meaningful, sentimental and something most people treasure more and more as the years go by.

I think you are worrying and stressing unnecessarily, if you want to give the SD's a photo of their father from you to them I think that is very thoughtful of you and guess I am thinking positive but I think it would be well received by any child adult or youngster.

Actually last christmas I framed photos of the step kids with their dad during various trips up north and gave them to them from me and they all liked them very much and put them right up.

It is the thought that counts. You are giving them a picture of their father for heavens sake, that is very sweet!

~Cat

COnsidering it isn't a rule that you have to give gifts at all at Christmas I would hope anyone would be appreciative of any gift they are given. This doesn't just go for kids or step kids but EVERYBODY.

I think it is ridiculous how commercial the holidays are and how much STRESS is wasted on who may hurt whomes feelings because of gifts given. The absurdity in that just boggles me. My solution to that would be everyone gets a card and be done with it.

Enjoy time with family instead of having a battle over what you should give or what you might receive. That's the best way to survive holiday stress IMHO.

So, according to this 'not looking a gift horse in the mouth' logic, would I be correct in assuming that if I gave my SM for Christmas a wonderful photo of my Dad (alone) taken on the evening of his marriage to my bio-mom, that she would have no right to have any bad/wierd feelings about it or complain? Because even though I am clued in to the possibility that the fact of my dad having married my mom might be a sore point for SM, that's really her issue to 'accept' or 'get used to' as a part of blended family life, so it would be her fault if the gift upset her, right? And what's REALLY important is that it's a photo of HIM, and that it's a GIFT, right? So if she complains or says nothing but 'seems' visibly bothered, or even if she doesn't seem visibly anything but if she DOESN'T give me a big hug and hang it up immediately, is she an ingrate?

Someone please respond to this hypothetically-reversed scenario this time instead of glossing over it. I really want to know what everyone thinks of that idea.

Serenity,
You really touched on the core of this for me. Why should it be on the kids to either appreciate the gift or be considered unappreciative? This is a very emotionally charged situation, one that should be navigated carefully. Although it's apparently not the OP's fault this rift has occurred it is now a part of her life and she can either make it wider or bring the family together.

Isn't the point of gift giving to get someone something you really think they would like, or would need, not something that you want to give them? And if they don't like it, then it is on them to either say so graciously or keep their mouth shut and appreciate the sentiment.

I think the OP is having doubts, that's why she posted. And if you're double-guessing a gift, it's probably not the best idea to give that gift.

I have a question for Gerina, and please don't take this as hostility, I'm asking a genuine, look into your heart question. What made you think this was a good gift for your new stepkids?

I gave my DH a set of pictures for Christmas last year. All of the pictures were of his parents, grand parents, great grandparents and him. He was very thankful and we have them displayed in our home. I'm not against pictures, nor pictures for a gift, nor pictures from a step-parent or a step-kid.

I think this is a unique situation, and in this case I do not think it's a good idea for a gift. What does your DH usually get for his kids for gifts? Perhaps you should just put your name on the gift too and there will be less chance of rejection/weird feelings. Maybe the pictures would be a good idea for next year, when the sting of not being included/told about your eloping will have lessened.

Silver, to put my .02 in --

I think OP suggested pic of dad, as the SDs have a nice pic of mom (which she pointed out). I can understand her wanting to stick up for her DH, and make certain he is treated just as well as the mother. But I think that could be vieweed as overstepping, etc. Yes, it could be that they want it. There is an easy way to find out. Ask. That also makes it clear OP cares about their opionions.

"So, according to this 'not looking a gift horse in the mouth' logic, would I be correct in assuming that if I gave my SM for Christmas a wonderful photo of my Dad (alone) taken on the evening of his marriage to my bio-mom, that she would have no right to have any bad/wierd feelings about it or complain?"

I assume this was geared at me. You never complain about a gift. Period. If you don't like it don't use it or whatever but a gift is a gift. It's not CS, it's not a law to give them. If I didn't like a gift I was given (and believe me there has been a FEW I really didn't like) I would still say thanks and then get rid of it. It isn't a political statement...it's a gift. If I felt the kids disliked me and would be offended by or not like anything I bought them I probably just wouldn't buy anything at all.

I think that's a pretty common stand point.

Hi KKNY,
I agree that OP suggested the pic of the dad but I don't think that she can, as you wrote: "make certain he is treated just as well as the mother". These girls are grown up. There are reasons they have pictures up that they want up. They could have asked for a picture of dad, taken a picture of dad, etc. if they wanted a picture of him up in their house. There is a lifetime of history there that she cannot possibly understand. None of us could. You can't make a grown person treat one parent as they do the other. I think it's ridiculous.

"Sticking up for her DH" is the exact sort of thing that can make a skid go a little crazy. Why should an adult man need someone to stick up for him to his adult children, especially when he is not tuned in to them enough to know that they wouldn't be happy about him eloping?! It sounds to me like someone needs to be sticking up for the skids, which I know the OP said she has been doing regarding the way they were told, and I know she regrets the way it all went down.

I feel sorry for these girls. There's obviously a lot going on that was not mentioned, and dad is completely oblivious to their feelings. Basically I see his wanting to give them a picture of the newlyweds as a shove-it-down-your-throat-and-accept-my-decision sort of gift. I'm sure if they were invited to the wedding, or made to feel included in his creation of his new family, and pictures were taken then (with them included!) that they would have a completely different set of feelings about the situation.

Yes, they should grow up and realize dad has a life of his own and they will not always get what they want, be told how they want to be told, etc. But they are still his children, and being sensitive to other people's feelings should not stop once they reach a certain age.

I think you are right, KKNY, the only way to show sensitivity and not overstep is to ask if they'd like a copy of a great picture of their dad. And then give it to them, sans ribbons and wrapping and bows.

although I agree that people should be appreciative of whatever gifts they get, some gifts might be considered insulting. even if a recipent says nothing, pain will remain. it is like giving a book on how to lose weight to an overweight person or similar gifts.

i think that giving a wedding picture of a parent, who didn't even inform his children about getting married, falls into the same rather offensive category. dad obviously offended his children by his insensitive actions. now it is time to make amends not to add some more pain by giving pictures. even if it is just a pciture of him, it is taken on a night of his wedding that he didn't invite his children to.

Doodleboo "You never complain about a gift. Period. If you don't like it don't use it or whatever but a gift is a gift."

I agree. If you are on good enough terms I think it's acceptable to say something if you don't like it (best friends, etc.) but generally a simple "thank you" and then doing with it what you want is the rule.

I don't think that's the point here though. If you know that a picture could have some emotionally charged feelings, if you know that the reason for the picture is a sore spot... why go there? Why not either A)don't get a gift B)sign your name to DH's gift C)tell them you'd like to get them something/get to know them better and ask what they'd want?

Why put a potential landmine in the center of the room?

Why would the Skids possible bad reaction be considered worse manners than the Smom giving a gift that could be taken by them as a jab?

I also agree that the SDs really have no choice but to suck it up and say "thank you" whether they feel hurt or jabbed by it or not. As a matter of both basic etiquette and not being accused of further fanning the flames of family discord. This isn't because they would be NOT entitled to have whatever feelings they want to have about it, but because unfortunately they are likely to be met with a big old guilt trip and they're not likely (at least as it sounds right now, the circumstances being fresh and raw for everyone) going to be able to share their feelings about it honestly and safely, without a fight or without rejection, regardless. Above and beyond this baseline level of etiquette and damage-prevention, if they actually end up truly loving and enjoying the gift, that will of course be gravy, icing on the cake and obviously even happier for everyone involved. Whether or not a jab is actually intended, if they don't perceive any jab, obviously the whole exchange will go smoother and better.

But here's my next set of questions:

-What happens if the SDs don't get upset or complain about it or anything, but just say a simple "Thank you" and have a neutral reaction? Does a neutral reaction count as enough gratitude?

-What happens if, even if they love and appreciate the photo of their Dad, they are still not so thrilled about the circumstances surrounding the way his wedding went down? In other words, what if they fail to "get the hint" that the gift is to gauge and/or elicit their improved attitude towards the wedding? What happens next?

-What if they say thank you but you never see the picture on display in their house?

Its obvious that it is a sore subject right now, so why push it? Picture aside, as I don't understand why a picture would be given as a gift. Since that is something in my family that is given freely to anyone.

Serenity, Silversword and Sweeby have all touched on what I basically think about it so there's no need to really rehash it. But I do want to piggyback on Silversword. Do you really think that his stepchildren are not displaying a picture because they just don't have a good picture of Dad?

And this is probably where the rubber meets the road in stepfamilies. Its up to Mom/Dad and their children to form their own relationships. No amount of "help" from a stepparent is really going to repair damage. Unfortunately in this situation, Dad is the one who needs to step up and learn how to balance his personal relationships. Its shockingly apparent that he doesn't really think of the impact of his choices (not his choice to get married, by how he did it) will have on his children. It does make you wonder how this has translated in his life and where he is at with his children. In any case, his choices, his relationships with his children.

Picture or no picture...I still think gifts should be given to acknowledge the recipient and not the giver. There are times when it is inappropriate to give something. I could give my dads newest girlfriend/fiance a single mom parenting book after she confessed how hard it was for her to me and I could claim that it was to help her. But we can probably all guess how much of a flop that gift would be.

I agree if it is known that a certain presentwill cause friction then you shouldn't go there. I still say that if it got to the point where I had to walk on egg shells or make sure everyones gift costed the same amount for fear of damaging feelings I'd start giving out cards.

In our family we only buy gifts for the children. It's a children's holiday not an adult holiday. The adult kids don't get gifts from all the family members. We buy our spouses actull presents, the children all get gifts and then we give everyone else cards, cookies, homemade candy etc. etc. We don't make the main focuse gift giving between adults.

I appreaciate my parents helping buy the girls presents...that's their gift to me.

I also agree that, especially between adults, nobody HAS to get anyone else a gift and that in some situations this is actually a more harmonious state of affairs. I could see where if the would-be recipient suddenly stopped receiving any gifts without it having been established previously that gift-giving was going to stop, they might wonder. Ideally there should be some sort of natural cut-off point, i.e. it's common enough that some relatives will give X-mas gifts to kids til they turn 18, etc. Or when there is some justifiable occasion or circumstance where it's fairly obvious that gift-giving is 'above and beyond' or simply too much to deal with. For example, especially once my Dad got diagnosed with cancer, I certainly didn't expect him to bother himself with going through a bunch of trouble to shop for, select and wrap presents for me. And I didn't expect it of SM, either. My Dad sent me a generous gift of money last Christmas, which I very much appreciated, and a nice card, and SM didn't send me anything. I wasn't mad that she didn't send me anything, especially given the cancer circumstances, I was only upset that I was dis-invited from spending the TIME up there. If she never gave me another Christmas present, I truly and honestly wouldn't hold that --in itself-- against her. Gifts, again especially between adults, are just that: GIFTS, extras. The whole point of a gift should be to show your genuine care and goodwill toward that individual. Or at the very least to show a certain neutral obedience to standards of etiquette and/or maturity. No one should be giving a gift if they either expect anything in return or if the gift causes more trouble or upset (for either the giver or the recipient) than it causes good feelings. If there is any 'golden rule' of gift-giving it should be that one. As well as, of course, the CLASSIC 'Golden Rule' of not giving a gift to someone else that, if the circumstances were reversed, you would not enjoy receiving yourself. But there is a difference, I feel, between deciding not to give gifts at all because you PRESUME a negative response from the giver vs. deciding not to give gifts at all because you sincerely don't want the gifting process to cause undue or unnecessary pressure, for yourself or the recipient. One is a decision made out of spite (or even fear of future spite) and is immature and the other decision is based on mutual respect, maturity and a desire to preserve peace. Gifts should be a way of preserving peace and good feelings and shouldn't be 'about' anything else, no matter tempted we probably ALL have been (I know I have been very tempted and I won't deny it!!!) to make it 'about' something else.