I have a 4 year degree, and recently went back to a community college to brush up on my skills, so I've been exposed to both areas of education. Also, I have a 19 year old son in college now.

I think the mom is probably correct in not wanting the son to go away to college his freshman year, but ask him to live at home instead, at least for a year or two.

As far as whether or not to go to community school or a local college - I know many salesmen who don't have marketing or business/sales degrees. Instead, they are people who went into other fields and their naturally charismatic personality propelled them into success in sales. For example, a friend of mine who was a radiology technician is doing an outstanding and lucrative job selling radiology equipment, another acquaintance with construction experience sells construction products, etc.

So I would think the young man could go either way, community college or local college, depending on his other abilities and interests. Does he also like construction, computers, biology, etc? Is he good at working with his hands? The reason I might lean toward community college is because of his serious case of ADHD - if he could find something he enjoys at the local community college, like auto repair or construction, then he might be more successful at completing a program there. He could still use his people skills to propel into a marketing position down the road.

On the other hand, if he doesn't have any other particular interests, then he may be better off attending the local 4 year college and living at home. Also, to me it seems that the local 4 year college might be more of a traditional school environment, and he may be more comfortable with that environment.

I had a very mixed impression during my time at our local community college. A couple of my teachers were excellent and the quality of instruction from them was equal to any instruction I got from the best of my professors at the university. But there were also many online components and many labs in which the students were completely on their own, and also many teachers pulled from "the industry" that were not knowledgeable at all about many of the classroom topics. So the only students who truly got a "good" education in that program were the ones who were self-motivated and diligently applied themselves. One thing that was a huge disappointment about some of my classes was the lack of feedback from some of my instructors. Grades were given out, but no feedback on what was incorrect or why the points were marked off. How can a student improve if they don't know what they got wrong? That type of environment is a disaster for young students who aren't motivated and lack discipline. However, I think at our local community college the people enrolled in the construction, automotive, HVAC, and healthcare fields get very good instruction all the way through the program. If he chooses community college, someone may want to help him pick a program with a good classroom format that suits him.

If I was this young man's mom, I would want him to attend the program he would be most likely to stick with the longest, whether that would be community college or the four year university. Sometimes that has less to do with the actual subject than how comfortable they are with the other students and also the classroom format.

This young man is very blessed to have a caring friend like you.

I don't really know the answer to your question.

My field is pretty technical, and two years towards a four-year degree is generally regarded as the equivalent of not going to college at all. The places I've worked, I think you would need a bachelor's to get an entry-level sales/PR job. (Unless you have extensive experience, of course. But getting that experience can be tough.) An associate's degree probably wouldn't be much help, either. To the best of my knoweledge, the only people with associate's degrees in my field are assistants and coordinators. I'm sure that other industries aren't all quite so difficult.

Still, if I were setting things up for my own kid, I would lean towards a school where he could get a bachelor's degree. I would probably look very closely at the schools themselves, because there can be pretty wide differences. Some provide a lot of structure, some provide almost none. If I were worried that he would crash and burn on his own, I would look to have him go to a school with more structure. Assuming that I could afford any decision that was made, I think I would only push for having him live at home if those scrapes with the law indicated a history of addiction or poor choices when it came to alcohol/drugs.

For what it's worth-- one of my brothers had no interest in applying to college, either. My mother was very much of the "you're GOING to college," school of thought, and she filled out his applications to two state schools. It took him awhile to find his bearings, but he did complete his degree and get a job in the field he studied. If my mother hadn't taken control, I don't know where he would be right now.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply Daisy! And I think you're right on target with everything you've said.

So far, Sonny hasn't really shown any particular areas of interest except for sports and partying ;-) He's had jobs in restaurants, so I thought Hospitality Management might be an area of study he could both enjoy and succeed in. As far as the more traditional vocational areas (auto, construction, HVAC), he hasn't shown any interest at all.

Your experiences at the community college also sound just like what I would expect -- some excellent, some half-hearted. And since Sonny isn't especially self-motivated at this point, I think he might get bored silly in a 'core' CC curriculem and leave quickly, without really gaining any 'credentials' that would help him down the road. I suspect also that a good proportion of the students at CC's right out of high school - the ones who would be his peer group - would be in 'drift' mode; and that at the four-year school, a larger proportion would be more focused.

I certainly mean no disrespect to the CC system, which I think is fabulous. I guess I'm just thinking that if a four-year degree isn't in the cards (and for some people, it isn't), and they still want a professional career, a few years at a four-year school is probably more marketable than a few years at a community college.

Hospitality does sound like an excellent choice for this young man. I have a friend in the hospitality industry who does very well, and it's his outgoing personality and excellent work ethic that puts him over the top. He seems to really love that field. I have another acquaintance who attended just one year of university and dropped out, and he is doing okay in the hospitality industry. However, it took a great deal of hard work. He began as a bartender and worked his way up to management. But he is happy and loves his job and is self-supporting, and that's what counts.

I guess I'm just thinking that if a four-year degree isn't in the cards (and for some people, it isn't), and they still want a professional career, a few years at a four-year school is probably more marketable than a few years at a community college.

I think it depends on the situation. At our local community college there are some great oppportunities in the healthcare industry. I have a friend going back for her nursing degree (RN) and there is a pathway for students to get their associates degree and then move into the RN school at a four year college.

However, if your young friend is looking at just a generalized core curriculum, or a sales, marketing, hospitality or business curriculum, I think there's no question but that he would be far better off at a four year college.

If your young friend attends the 4 year college, I'd suggest he look into the coop program or the internship program at his school. Sometimes alternating those semesters of work and school helps kids stick with their education. However, my perspective on that may be a bit skewed as most people I know who co-oped (spelling?) are engineers or engineering students, and the working semesters were a welcome break from their studies. Anyway, it's worth looking into if he gets that far!

Some colleges have degrees in sports management related fields. Might he have an interest in that?

Based on my own experiences, I'd say that the kid shouldn't be pushed into going to college immediately if he doesn't really have any clear direction yet. I agree totally, based on how you've described him, that he would probably be great at sales/public relations/marketing & the like. The cool thing about that, too, is that it goes hand in hand with being a small business owner of some sort. Maybe he just needs to work for a year or a few years before thinking about college. In that time he will either have a crappy experience in the working world which will give him that extra motivation to go to college and do well; OR he will enjoy his work and seek to become self-employed in it, whatever it is. If he waits tables and really enjoys the environment, he might find he wants to one day own his own restaurant. In this case he might realize that he may not even need the degree at all, or that a degree in Business or Marketing may be exactly what it takes to give him the competitive edge. Or he may go to culinary school... Or if his interest is sports, he might want to open up a sports bar or merchandise store or ebcoem a sportscaster (and then he might consider pursuing a Journalism degree). Etc. etc... In his case, if one of his best talents is his way with people, then he's still really fortunate even if he's directionless right now, because the people skills can be one of the most important things in any job, *especially* running a business of some sort.

Hello Sweeby,

I am facing the same thing with my DS16. He has severe dyslexia along with several other learning disabilities. He has an IQ of 130. School for DS is hell. It always has been. His grades run from A+ to F right now. I just finished emailing all of his teachers and requested direct communication with them several times a week so that I was aware of his pending assignments and current grade in each class. I have also let him know that I have raised the bar to nothing below a "C".

As we look toward the future I do not see a 4 year college for him. He would have to want it desperately and even then it would be very hard for him. We are looking at the com. college.

His social skills are excellent. He is praised for his maturity and character where ever he goes. That is going to have to be something that he uses in what ever field he ends up in. His principal talked with me and let me know that there are so many fields of employment that we don't even consider and schools are not able to address with the limited time that they have. He feels that DS will do well even with a com. college.

I worry but there are so many more things that are important than a high paying job. Of course I would like him to not struggle through life but it is out of my hands.

When I found out that he had so many learning disabilities I told his teachers that I would concentrate on his heart and his character. I have never regretted doing that. He has never been in trouble with the police (yet) and adults come up to me and tell me that he is a unique young man. He makes eye contact with them, he thinks deeply, he is dependable and trustworthy and he has a tender loving heart.

This world measures success by how much money you make. I just want him to be a well adjusted, loving man, a good husband and father and to follow what God has planned for him.

believer, what are his specific learning disabilities? It is very uncommon to have learning disabilities with such high IQ. ASD, EI etc yes, but SLD...very uncommon. So is it reading, math? what are his achievement scores? even if it two deviations below his abilities, it would still be within a norm.

could it be that he was misdiagnosed?

Rats - Lost my post!

Sovra - We cross-posted before - sorry! And some good points. Since alcohol was involved in Sonny's legal difficulties, Mom does want him living at home until he grows up a bit more.

Serenity - Postponing college could easily mean foregoing college altogether for this kid. In his mind, it's not a 'foregone conclusion' that he'll go, so if it isn't 'easy' it probably won't happen. In other words, he won't just 'drift in' at any point other than now, and it's likely to be years before he realizes what an opportunity he threw away.

Believer - I so hear you! My own older son is also gifted and dyslexic, and it's so frustrating when they are so very bright but have to work so hard. My DS struggles most to determine exacty what the question is asking when the wording is anything other than the most straight-forward. So on multiple choice tests, he'll often answer 'the wrong question'... Have you been able to get any good intervention for him? And is he willing to work on his reading?

FD - Why do you say it's rare to have LDs with such a high IQ? (Are you a public school teacher? Because that's the 'party line' in our school system, and the one they have consistently used to avoid helping my DS.) It's a common assumption, and something assumed also initially, but have since learned otherwise. My DS's LDs are very specific to reading -- most specific to phomenic awareness and the ability to manipulate sounds in his mind. His sub-tests ranged from the 12th percentile to the 99+ percentile, and virtually everywhere in between...

Daisy - The local college I mentioned has a well-regarded Hospitality program, and I think that might be something he could target, possibly with some enthusiasm even. Plus, it's just a good solid business degree program with coursework that transfers well.

My feelings about Community College is "it a wonderful place for the motivated student that can not afford to go elsewhere". If they can afford it I think the 4 yr school is a very good place for him to start. Commute first yr. If indeed he quits after 1 or 2 yrs he could always transfer the credits to a community college to get an associate degree with probably very little to complete.

One of my kids who has learning disabilities went to a small, private community college at night and then transferred. He did very well there, but there was no social life whatsoever because most of the students were adults. Some of the courses were excellent, some were pretty good, and a few were very light on content. On the positive side, getting an associate's degree with high honors gave him a much needed boost in self confidence, but the course work didn't really prepare him well for advanced courses in a four year school.

Does the 4-year school in your town have many commuters? If he commutes to a largely residential campus he could feel very isolated. Is it a party school?

I think liberal arts schools are great for kids who are interested in lots of things and haven't narrowed down what they want to major in yet. Some schools have "career investigation" tracks for kids who have no idea what they want to do.

eandhl - Excellent point about converting from partial completion of a 4-yr degree to a full associates! I'd never considered it going 'backwards' -- but why not?!

And TOS - The 4-yr school in question is largely a commuter school, and not really a party school, so 'check' and 'check' ;-)

I would have to get out his test reports to give all of his disabilities with the correct terms. He has fine motor skill problems which have make writing more difficult. His reading skills are much lower than normal although his comprehension is high. He has trouble with memory skills, organizational skills, attention span, you name it, he has it.

He has been in what is called the "Discovery" program since 6th grade. It is run through the national institute for learning disabilities. He has had an individual learning program since 2nd grade. He has attended Discovery classes for 90 minutes, twice a week up until last year. We feel that he has been given the tools that he needs and know it is time for him to sharpen them and use them to his advantage. His discovery teacher once explained a 90 minute session for him akin to having him rum laps around the track for hours. It is physically exhausting. It is believed that the base of the brain is underdeveloped with dyslexic kids and so they focus on developing it through various mental exercises. One is called rhythmic writing which involves the student writing on a chalkboard similar shapes repeating the direction of the movements out loud. They also add verbal math problems and such. They force the students to use both sides of their brains during this exercise.

It is actually quite common for dyslexic kids and kids with other learning disabilities to have higher than normal IQs. That adds to the frustration and behavioral problems because the kids have the answers in their heads but can't get them out on paper.

Sometimes we test DS verbally because of his reading problems. It is quite a challenge and when this boy walks across the stage to receive his diploma I don't know that I will be able to contain myself.

As far as his test scores go he has had really high scores and really low scores. Testing him is not a fare assessment of his knowledge. I don't think that he has been misdiagnosed since being in the discovery program. He is at a private school and has been since 6th grade. Prior to that he was in public school. They had determined that he had learning disabilities because he had behavior problems. They never came up with a dyslexic diagnosis but were quite shocked when the results showed that his IQ was 130. His 1st grade teacher had told me prior to his testing that she was just afraid that he was of below normal intelligence. I held my tongue and waited for the results of the tests. I knew from his interaction with me at home that he was not below normal. It's funny because he is considered "gifted" because of his IQ but he struggles so with school. I just hope that when he is finished with school he can shine on his own.

"His 1st grade teacher had told me prior to his testing that she was just afraid that he was of below normal intelligence. "

That is so infuriating! My son's 1st grade teacher said the same thing to me! And he had ALREADY been tested and placed into the Gifted & Talented program! Which she KNEW because he was pulled out of her class to attend the enrichment activities. In fact, it wasn't until the end of the school year that she even admitted to me that he was in the 'lowest' reading group. Then she tried to insist that none of the kids knew it was the 'lowest' group since they went by colors... Sheesh!

Not related.... to your post but....

We had my son tested when he was in 2nd grade for LD's because like you said I felt he was super smart but couldn't get his words to the paper. Thinking dyslexia or something along those lines ...

Two things I remember from the "meeting" with the "team" my son is borderline genius (don't know the IQ score didn't remember it) and the next was ....

"Kids with his types of behaviors tend to grow up and be sexual devients" ... WHAT???? yes children who continually check their private parts tend to be deviants. You have got to be kidding me!!!

He used to "check" it all time didn't like clingy clothing so if his underwear didn't fit right or his pants didn't fit just right even socks was super sensitive to that stuff. He would "adjust himself" constantly so they told me his destiny .... my rebuttal (although not a good one) so "every baseball player is a sexual deviant????"

I left the room in a huff!!! And I pulled him out of that school the next day .... I didn't want him spending time with a school counselor who had foreseen his future as a sexual deviant.

"And I pulled him out of that school the next day .... "

Problem solved! At no cost to the school. Way to go Counselor!

Good Grief!

My DH must be a "sexual deviant" then cuz he's always rearranging the furniture! LOL .....I'm thinking that the counselor better keep both of his hands on the table...What a thing to say to a mom about her little boy. What a jerk.

Sweeby,

I am coming into this late & you may have already had your discussion with your friend's son...you already have had some excellent advice and I concur with most of what everyone has already offered.

Keep this kid close to home for the first year or two --- check!

Allow him to take a wide variety of classes that may help him to identify his academic and/or career interests --- check!

Enroll in the institution that offers the most in the way of academic support for their students ---CHECK!

This last point may be the most important one...attending the school which offers post-enrollment support to their students in order to assist them in achieving academic success on their path to a meaningful life (family, career, etc). I would encourage mom and son to visit the admissions office of each institution, talk very specifically with those folks about the exact nature of the young man's learning issues and ask the school officials what support they provide to ensure the above, i.e. academic success. I would ask them if it would be possible to speak with other students who might avail themselves of whatever support is provided in order to determine the value other kids with similar issues find in the services offered. After doing my research, I'd go with whichever institution offers the best, most effective post enrollment support.

Good luck to your friend's boy.

I've been overdue in reporting back --

Actually, our talk went very well! After a few scary moments in the afternoon with Mom & Dad -- who each independently said "Push core basics at Community College for two years"... I had to explain to each that this wasn't what I was suggesting and why -

- that if Sonny could only stick out school for a maximum of two years, that I though 2 years at a 4-year school would 'play' better with future employers,

- that a 'core' curriculum at Community College would probably be much more 'boring' to Sonny than classes of his choice in his areas of interest at a 4-year school, so he might actually stay long enough to get a degree,

- and that the typical students in a 'core' curriculum at Community College straight out of high school would probably be less-motivated and self-directed, which was probably NOT what party-loving Sonny needed...

Well - they agreed across the board. And Sonny was so grateful to hear that his parents supported a plan that was NOT 'core' curriculum at Community College that he JUMPED on to the bandwagon with enthusiasm. It still means living at home, but it escapes the stigma of 'failure' that Sonny associated with the CC plan. He also really liked the Hospitality Management suggestion since the education is practical and plays to his strengths.

So I'm going to check if I still have any connections in the Hospitality program at the local college (I had a few good ones at one time) and dig up some SAT and SAT-prep information to forward to Mom.

Knock on wood!

Perhaps I overlooked it but what does he want to do as far as an occupation? What interests him? I read what you and the parents think but not his thoughts.
There are other types of schools too where they specialize in certain fields and can be certified.
I wish you the best and hope he finds his nitch.
Lynn

Hi Lynn - Sonny is a natural born salesman -- a charismatic people person with high energy (ADHD) and phenominal social skills. He hasn't given much serious thought to a career, but agrees that sales is probably a good spot for him. And as you read, the hospitality industry also sounds good to him.

As far as specific vocations - the types of programs where you could earn a 'certificate' or equivalent credential, he hasn't expressed any interest.