Sounds to me like this little girl desparately feels she needs more time with her father. Every other weekend really isn't a lot -- Is there any way Dad could see her during the week?

I still lobby for counseling. If not an individual therapist, talk to the school counselor. They can sometimes spend some one-on-one time with students and maybe not provide therapy, but will often be able to share their opinion with the parents about what's going on and the best way for the parents to deal with it.

You and DH and mabye even BM can try to explain things the best you can, but sometimes it takes an outside party to be able to have a good conversation with the child. They need to know from someone *not* involved with the situation that their feelings are normal and that lots of kids are suffering the same things.

I know my SS has some issues at school - apparently related more to being an only child who engages in some fierce competetion with another boy who is also an only child in his class. The school counselor wants to talk to my DH b/c she has observed them and has some suggestions for ways to improve the kids relationship.

I know you said your busband wouldn't be interested in sending her to counseling b/c he thinks it's all BM's fault, but speaking realistically, how often is anything really one persons fault. And even if the BM is doing some kind of mind control games on her, the daughter deserves a chance to ask for help from a disinterested party. If your DH can't see that, he's doing his daughter a diservice.

Thank you TOS, when my X told me to leave, I thought I explained situation to DD. She told me two years later, she thought our move was temporary. I never said anything to imply that. I cant imagine why she thought that. I never said that. It breaks my heart. And if DD told Dad "I thought you and Mom would be getting back togethor" -- would Dad's GF blame that on me?

TOS, and Kkny as well - the mother admitted to saying that. She also kicked my SD out of her bed each time she got a new boyfriend, only to bring her back when that relationship ended.
I only blame those who rightfully deserve it.

Is a piece of paper what makes a family? Not love, commitment and respect? You really need a certificate to be considered a family?

"You really need a certificate to be considered a family?"

Yes, actually you do.

Wow. I actually don't have words.

Your black and white world must be such a fun and joyful place. I'll go to sleep tonight thanking my grey stars I don't have to be a part of it.

And I will go to sleep grateful that my stars are NOT gray. Many things ARE black and white, and I have found that the majority of people who live in worlds of shades of gray are trying to justify some behavior of theirs that they know is wrong.

I guess I need to clarify a couple of things. There is no more alone time to be had with the SD and my fiance unless I would pack up and leave for the weekend. Because right now she monopolizes all of his time and I have been giving it to them. Other than the sleeping arrangements and that will not change because he does not and will not sleep in the room with her. The only problem is that every hour or so she has some excuse to come in and get him so that we are all up and down all night. But I try to take my son and do things with him instead of having the household split down the middle because she is so jealous of me. And I do know it is me because the minute I walk in the door, my fiance notices how SD changes. She is clingy before and wants his full attention on her but it is 10 times worse when I am around.

I know that I was not there during his divorce but my fiance was willing to let his wife go out and do whatever she needed to do just to be there with his daughter and have the privelege of raising her. That was until she decided that she wanted to be with her lover more than be a family for her daughter. I also know that this is true because I have seen the notes in the lawyer's file from their divorce. He does not blame BM for the way that SD is acting but believes that something recently has happened in order to suddenly cause her to be changing the way that she is acting. He just cannot get her to open up about what it is. BM told my fiance when we first started dating that he and I would not work and that he did not need to take SD around us since we were going to end up apart anyway. We are going on two years and other than our frustrations every other weekend we get along wonderfully. He is just as frustrated as I am also and that is why I am seeking help here.

I would love for her time with us to be more of a family time than just what I consider her "visiting." But I can honestly say that the longer that this goes on, the more distance I put between myself and her, and the more that I resent her behavior--not her but her behavior when I come around. I really do like her when she is not in one of her moods or throwing a fit because my fiance wants to take a shower and is going to leave her side for 10 mintues. We used to get along really well and I guess that is why I am having such a hard time with this. She used to always want to include me and my son in everything that we did. We truly were like a family until about four months ago. I do want us to be a family and I will not change my attitude about that.

I have been on all sides of this. I grew up watching my dad raise another family. But I would never have treated my SM the way that SD is treating me right now. I also have had the wonderful pleasure of my ex leaving me for the woman that he got pregnant and now have to deal with watching them raise their daughter and my son get shut out on a lot that his sister gets to do with their dad. But when he is there, they are a family and I have always taught my son to show respect to his father and his wife no matter how much I resented them and to know that he is part of that family as well as the one at my house. I would never try to make my son choose sides. I do not want to put that on him. I have also been married to an abusive, alcoholic, drug-addicted man in between that had two children that I absolutely adored. We were together for eight years until I could not handle the abuse toward me any longer. But I did everything that I could for his kids and considered them as much mine as they were his. I knew that I would never be their mother but they accepted me as their stepmother.

I know that every situation is different and I am truly compassionate for all of us involved in all of this because divorce is never an easy situation especially for the kids. But I am truly at my wits end over this. Right now it is so bad that he does not even want to get her on her weekends. Her behavior has been that bad. But I do not want to come between him and her.

"right around the time of the behavior changes in SD she began dating a guy that she is very quickly getting serious with."

don't know how I missed this before.

She may be, as you say, just feeling a little lost with both her parents involved with other people, & the drama could be 9-year-old stuff, but you might want to check into the man her mother is seeing.

Sometimes pedophiles pick out single mothers to get access to children.

I wish all of you the best.

If the girl has shown a marked change in behavior, and especially if she is clingy even when alone with her father, I think there is a good chance that sylviatexas is right.

What I don't understand is what kind of father would not want to see his daughter just because she was clingy? Or for any reason short of being homicidal?

Perhaps he doesnt want her there until he can figure out how to deal with her behavior.It doesnt sound like he is very good at handling his daughter's rather emotional outburst.(Have you ever known a man who was good with emotional outbursts?)
I'm going to agree that maybe something happend to her.

Either that or she is going through puberty and is just very emotional.
My daughter is nine,almost ten and has suddenly become very emotional herself.Often crying over what seems to me,little things. Of course puberty makes them much more sensitive.

I was going to also suggest that YOU spend some time alone with her and see if this helps.Maybe just you and her go get ice cream or something and talk to her and be her friend.Is it possible maybe she's jealous over the baby?

He does want to see his daughter but he does not handle the emotional stuff well at all. He usually ends up feeling guilty and then she can usually get whatever she wants. That is another thing, she knows the tears work as do her forever tummy aches and head aches. We usually see one or more of each every weekend to get his sympathy and if one doesn't work then we continue on with the next one--which is just making her more obvious all of the time. I have seen her play them on him whenever she doesn't get her way. I think he would rather just ignore the issue instead of facing it most days. He is so frustrated when she is over and by the time she is gone I wonder if he will ever go get her again. He keeps telling me that she does not know what she is doing like she is still 4 or something. But I keep telling him that my parents divorced when I was 8 and I played a lot of the same games at the same age. I worked it all I could to play both sides and get my way all that I could. I truly believe that she knows exactly what she is doing. Her motivation is what worries me because I do not want this to continue to get worse as she gets older.

There is no baby between us. I have a 13 son from a previous marriage. He gets along wonderfully with fiance and depending on how things are over the weekend depends on how much he disappears in his room when SD is over. Things have gotten very tense when she is over. Which I also do not think is fair because he is also looking for time with us on his weekends with us. We have talked about having one each weekend but they do get along and SD does like to see my son when she comes over also.

I have tried to do things with her. She will go sometimes and then she is okay. I usually get pretty much one word answers to about every question that I ask though. I have not felt comfortable enough to pry too much when I can't even get more than a one word answer about school or whatever else I try to talk to her about.

I can see wanting an occasional evening out when you are raising kids full-time, especially during the emotional preteen years (though nine seems a little young to blame puberty for most kids). I can not understand not wanting to spend time with your daughter when you only get to see her once in awhile to begin with, no matter how difficult she is. At one time I had 4 teenagers simultaneously, in addition to younger children, but no matter how obnoxious and emotional they were, I would never have chosen to be away from them for more than a few hours.

TOS,
My DGD went through it around 8-9, and she's just a tiny little thing, so I think it varies a lot. My DD used to call me up at wits end asking for support because they both had PMS REALLY bad! I felt sorry for her DH. (How does she think I got through it with 3 daughters in the house?)

I am going thru same situation as you with a couple of differences. I love my 9 year old SD very much we talk a lot when she comes over every weekend as well as do things together, when her father is not around. She enjoys spending time with me when her father is not around, but when he is, she doesnt want nothing to do with me she is all over him. My DH also has a 15 year old daughter who I've only seen maybe 6 times in 1 ½ years. I have three children myself DD 5yo, DS 8yo, and DS 13yo, I also just had a DS with my DH 2 1/2 months ago. My DH and BM divorced 2 1/2 years ago and she moved another woman into her house. My 9yo SD is very clingy with her dad when we are all together and has to be touching him the whole time sheÂs here. For example, holding his hand, hugging him, sitting on his lap, being carried by him....ect....This doesn't bother me since I think a father/daughter relationship should be close since I lost my father to death at the age of 7. But lately SD has been acting in a way I think is inappropriate for a nine year old. Last weekend she wanted to put make-up on and dress scrimpy (mini skirt and tank top that belonged to my 5yo DD). And then just the other night she sent DH a picture of her getting out of the shower. I take this as a sign that she is trying to make her father love her in a different way . Almost like, to make her father see her as attractive. He said it was fine because she had a towel on. I donÂt agree I said it is not CUTE anymore. It might have stemmed from a comment he made to ME a few weeks back. I had just got out of the shower and was dressed and made up and he came to me and held me from behind and told me how beautiful I looked and he kissed me on my neck. As soon as he let go of me she ran and leaped into his arms and wrapped her legs around him. SD is not a small build she is 4 5" and 85 lbs. I am old school, no make-up till 13, dress appropriately and basically live like a 9yo not a 35 yo. I do tell DH my concerns when we are alone but he thinks its because she only sees him on weekends and that I am jealous. ThatÂs where my story is different. He encourages this behavior. He even talks to her like a baby most of the time. I try to tell him that at 9 years old she should be a little more independent. She should not be carried like a baby, not be talked to like a 3 year old and not be catered to the whole time sheÂs here. He doesnÂt agree. I think, he thinks she wonÂt want to come back if he alienates her in the slightest way. This wouldnÂt upset me as much as it does, if DH wouldnÂt alienate my children and I the whole time she is around, itÂs like we donÂt even exist and sometimes acts like we are a burden to him. He is very strict with my children (not physically) discipline wise, but he is very blind to what his daughter does. He says he doesnÂt see it. I think he doesnÂt WANT to see it so he doesnÂt have to yell at her because he might upset her. For instance, if one of my children want to hug me or sit on my lap while we are together he immediately pushes them away and says "Back OFF!" Like I said my relationship with my SD is wonderful she gets along with my children and I very well. ItÂs the relationship I have with DH when she is around and in addition to her actions that bothers me. I must add that he calls her every night to talk to her and bought her a cell phone so she can call him at anytime. She also stays extra with us when she doesnÂt have school. As for spending time alone, my children arenÂt around every other weekend and I usually leave them alone so they can have alone time. IÂm afraid this situation is going to ruin OUR relationship if he doesnÂt change HIS ways and he tries to change HER ways. It is a shame, since we have a newborn together. I havenÂt approached SD about this but I think I will now since she has produced different actions that are inappropriate. I donÂt have the problem of sleeping arrangements but I do have the problem of stomach aches and head aches when DH and I are conversing or doing something together. These actions have been going on since we met 1 ½ years ago. It was real bad in the first year where she wouldnÂt even talk to me, since then we have grown to get along but she is still overly attached to her father. I have learned a lot from these posts already and I hope to learn more after you all read mine. IÂm just glad IÂm not the only one going thru this because IÂm tired of being called JEALOUS. And that a 9 year old can be held accountable for her actions and that I shouldn't just leave them alone and let them have there relationship. DH and I also need a relationship she needs to except his feelings for me as well as I need to except his feelings for her or the relationship will fail and for my newborn's sake I will not let it fail do to a 9 year old who can't stop acting like she is the only one in his life and him acting like she is the only one in his life. Life is full of hardships and things we don't understand but that is life, you learn to get past these obstacles from birth thru adulthood. Please comment on this as I would love to hear responses whether they are possitve or negative I'm here for guidance and understanding.

Sorry, but being freaked out by the sight of a nine-year-old wrapped in a towel like it's supposed to be a sexual turn-on for anybody is a bit wierd, and I think you're projecting. I call it that b/c you read lasciviousness into a nine-year-old in a towel but apparently fail to see how the scenario of YOU in a towel (with grown-up anatomy, actually BEING a sexual being, with an actual sexual relationship with your DH, who "comes from behind" to kiss on your neck and tell you how beautiful you are and practically take you right then & there with his daughter present) *could* be read (by some people) as AT LEAST as iffy. You think prepubescent SD covered up by a towel in front of her biological parent is some sort of depraved display, but you don't think you engaged in a slightly suggestive display in front of your 9-year-old SD? Which scenario is actually sexual (or even just bordering on sexual) and which isn't? Are people wrapped in towels in front of other family members okay or not okay? Is it bad for your own kids to be seen in wrapped in towels or just SD? Decide.

Btw, call me permissive, but I don't see much of a big deal in people in the same household being seen in partial undress... ***as long as*** genitals & DEVELOPED, EXISTING BOSOMS (especially nip) stay covered. I mean, what century is this? What happens with a family trip to the beach and everyone's in bathing suits and.... ***TOWELS***? So I don't think you did anything wrong by being in a towel in front of your SD and being groped/tongued by your DH in front of SD, even. I mean, people who love each other are affectionate with each other. They kiss and hug. People who reside in the same household (let alone FAMILY) occasionally see each other without every inch of themselves covered, or within minutes of a shower. Obviously there are some different boundaries when its a sexual relationship vs. a blood relative relationship... and frankly, adults in a sexual relationship have much more of a responsibility to maintain a certain level of discreet-ness in front of children, especially if they're extremely concerned about the overall level of sexuality in the household... But really, nobody should be freaking out about towels and hugs... SD & DH have done nothing wrong, and you and DH haven't, either. Just don't start obsessing, b/c then it could start getting a bit f***ed up. (Think "preacher's daughter syndrome", or what tends to happen to girls named "Chastity...." Don't push too much in one direction and you won't have a wanton sex-fest coming at you in rebellion from the other direction.)

It could very well be that SD might be starting to discover her sexuality, and it's certainly normal & common enough to initially have some awkward moments and push some boundaries of "acting out" in a somewhat suggestive way towards family members at that time. I don't doubt your sanity or the fact that there is probably something like this going on now with SD... But the solution isn't to freak out, blame anybody, or to resent SD or punish her like she's "bad" or "sick" or anything of the sort, because she isn't. It's called normal pre-adolescent sexual self-discovery. When she crosses a clear and obvious line (which would consist of ACTUAL sexual language, contact or behavior such as showing her genitals, attempting to "french" another family member, talking explicitly about wanting to have sex with another family member, etc: ACTUAL SEXUAL BEHAVIORS, not cutesy or coy behaviors that YOU interpret as suggestive or "flirty" b/c that's just a grey area with differences in people's personalities), then at that point someone (NOT YOU) needs to say to her: "Honey, now that you're getting to be a grown-up young lady ---isn't that cool, yay!--- there's certain "little girl" things that you can't do anymore. Growing up means less rules in some areas but it also means more rules in other areas.... [yadda yadda]". That's they way budding sexuality & boundaries are handled in virtually every family in existence. What becomes "sick" is when the ADULTS can't seem to stop being obsessed with children's normal sexual development. Just deal with blatant boundary issues when they arise in the way every other family does, and don't make a big perverted deal out of things that are actually normal & innocent.

Sorry if I offend anyone's sensibilities here, but this seems like a good occasion to share a really funny story from my own childhood, relayed to me by my mom. I was about 4 or 5 and was at that stage where I was "discovering myself" (I know: early bloomer... I was also reading at 3, but this was a lot more fun...) One day my mom had a date over (my parents divorced when I was 2), and I had apparently wandered over to one of the legs on on our dining room table and was proceeding to rub myself (especially certain parts of myself) against it before she could catch me doing it. Unfortunately her date saw me doing this before she could. Since the table legs happened to possess much "girth" (about 9 inches in diameter), the guy's lightning-quick response was: "I'm afraid your daughter's doomed for a lifetime of disappointment."

HA!!!

And, of course, my mother immediately scooped me up, took me into my room and gently but clearly imparted to me the above-mentioned "now that you're getting to be a grown-up young lady, there are things we don't do..." speech. And that's all it took: no more embarassing displays ever again, and no sexual hang-ups...

I do not know about this statement that girls are possessive of their fathers. I certainly am not. My DD is not possessive of her father either. I think it is up to the parents to teach boundaries. This is lack of boundaries big time. And sounds unhealthy. Sleeping wiht 9-year-old daughter is unnecessary and is not healthy.

mom of 6: I sympathize. DHs daughter is the same way. She has always been a little more affectionate to my liking. The constant petting of DHs face, rolling in his lap, and intertwining fingers out in public as if they are boyfriend/girlfriend. She is 16 now. It is very hard for me to stay in the same room with her.

In conversations with other step-moms in my workplace, I learn this is typical. I dont know why fathers allow this behavior. I know if a 16 year old boy did those things to me, DH would be up in arms. As it is, I have no say in this matter.

I know I will take a bunch of heat for this, but I don't want you to feel alone. I have dealt with a very similar situation with my FSD.

I grew up with lots and lots of boundaries put in place. I had a close relationship with my father, and do to this day. It has never been inappropriate or less than functional. I credit those boundaries for that. I have no "daddy" issues that I need to work out through my relationships with other men or my son. I feel as though I had a well-rounded influence from both of my parents and I have always wanted that for both my DS and FSD.

I had a HUGE adjustment to make when I found out all people don't have boundaries like mine. When I started dating BF, I felt that he was a little "too close" with FSD. I figured that was because of the divorce and he was trying to help her feel secure. But it just kept getting worse as the years went on. It was to the point that if, for whatever reason, I wasn't home at night, he would let her sleep in our bed. Now we're not talking about a small child. She was almost 8 when we met and this continued for a few years. A few times she would intentionally walk in on me naked. I knew it was intentional because she would have to go through 2 sets of doors to get to where I was getting dressed. There were definitely other issues. One day, she left her backpack at our home. BF took the backpack to her house early that morning before she left for school. He rang the doorbell and FSD answered the door stark naked. First of all, why is SF allowed to see her naked? Second, why would she ever think she could answer the door to her own father naked? There were definitely boundary issues. That was his fault. He never actually talked to her about what proper father-daughter relationship should be. He never explained his and mine relationship. I feel as though she thought she and I were loving her dad in the same way. I tried talking to him, but it did no good. I e-mailed him articles and stuff. Those helped a lot, but it was still weird.

But, as Serenity said, my suggestion is treat each boundary issue differently. Dont lump them all together. Maybe start with the sleeping issue. Both of you can talk to her in a loving and concerned way, but also be plain and clear. Then maybe go into a modesty issue (re the towel). Tell her that's she's getting boobies now and blah, blah, blah. Let her know that there IS a difference between your relationship with her dad and hers. Once she learns that, she'll understand. Plus, when she gets her period, I doubt she'll want dad to have anything to do with her. LOL!

Mom of 6:

I just re-read your post and have to point out my error the first time reading it: you say clearly that you WERE dressed in the scenario with DH kissing/complimenting you, not in a towel. Not that it makes any difference in my book, but since you were concerned about towels, I figured I should at least correct my own mistake in perceiving that you thought towels were fine for you but not SD. My mistake, sorry...

The only other point I'd make is to address where you say "I will not let it fail do to a 9-year-old who can't stop acting like she is the only one in his life and him acting like she is the only one in his life."

First of all, you're giving a nine-year-old way too much power and way too much blame. If your relationship were to fail, it would not be "do to her", it would be b/c of a collective inability to reach a solution or agreement on this matter that is acceptable to all parties. By singling SD out in this way as the 'cause' of a potential split, you are demonstrating that your fear of her power (sexual and otherwise) is out of proportion to reality, as well as inadvertently expressing your motivation to prove your power to HER.

Secondly, I am not sure exactly which of her behaviors constitutes clear proof of "acting like she is the only one in his life". Her affection towards DH, her behaviors (albeit some of them perhaps awkward) in exploring her budding sexuality, in no way preclude there being other people in his life. Does she ever say things like "I wish it was just you and me, Daddy" or "I am the only one in your life"? Does she try to pull him into another room to be alone with him or tell you or your kids to go away? While I think you are correct to observe some element of insecurity (normal in children of divorce, especially with NCP, especially with step-siblings in the picture and especially with brand-new-baby in picture, especially, again, in NCP context) in SD in addition to the sexual self-discovery behaviors, none of that DE FACTO indicates that she perceives herself to be the only one in his life. In actuality, if it indicates anything relevant to that idea, it's precisely that she feels insecure because she is ALL TOO AWARE of there being many others in his life, moreover who see him a lot more often and thus have a lot more of his attention. If she's not even over there the majority of the time, how can it even be POSSIBLE that she is "the only one in his life"? Even a nine-year-old has more sense of reality than that.

So again, I wonder if you are projecting to some extent... Because the whole idea of monogamy/exclusiveness is a learned concept based on experiences that teach children to self-differentiate from an amorphous group, and it is an idea learned from adults. Adults see more in terms of "mine" vs. "yours", ownership and one-partner-per-person than a child does. Hence why the whole concept of "don't take what doesn't belong to you" often becomes a major issue in child-rearing or teaching. These are learned concepts. And they becoem a lot more complicated to learn when, for example, "sharing" is preached but then in other contexts the kid is punished for using (or expecting to be able to use) some item belonging to soemone else. It's confusing! So naturally kids struggle to figure out just what the rules are and have awkward moments... Love & affection being even more vague and abstract than material objects, it's understandable that they would struggle with the boundaries of "sharing" in that context even more...

Oh dear, you did not read it right, I never come out of bathroom not clothed my post said after I was fully dressed and primped

Ashley says: Plus, when she gets her period, I doubt she'll want dad to have anything to do with her. LOL!
----
DH's daughter has no qualms telling him when the friendly visitor comes by. Again, co-workers tell me their daughters (natural & step) are the same way.

Mom of 6--

You and I obviously have very different upbringings & attitudes towards sexual more's, etc... fair enough... but let's focus on what we both agree on:

-Boundaries DO exist (but these may not be agreed on by everyone down to precise actions... this is where you & DH, for example, might disagree on EXACTLY what constitutes inappropriate behavior... but you and he need to try your best to reach some kind of clear agreement on that. If you acn't do tha, it's not SD's fault and she shouldn't be seen as misbehaving, just being a normal girl discovering her own sexuality)

-She most likely IS in that phase of discoverng her sexuality

-She most likely IS a little insecure in the situation

-**If*** there is any attitude of "I'm the only one in Daddy's life", it is a confused one, and/or perhaps a defense mechanism in response to feeling lke she is anything but

I think you and I more-or-less agree on the above points. I'll put my own attitudes and more's to the side now and just address you based on yours in a way that hpefully will reassure you:

I really don't think you need to fear so much. If you trust your DH to not be a pedophile, then no matter how much his daughter may wink, play dress-up, hug or sashay around, it is not going to present any kind of threat to your relationship with DH. If there is a separate concern about HER OWN safety in relation to OTHER men who may be pedophiles, certainly that can and should be addressed. (Probably a good idea, no matter what, to have talks with developing girls about the advantages/risks of embracing your sexuality and to establish ground rules about what they are/aren't allowed to wear in public while they are in your care). But this latter issue is separate (and frankly a lot more practical and wise to focus on). Otherwise, if you have doubts about your DH's potential responses to his own daughter, I'm not sure what you're doing with him.

serenity_now_2007

I really love your open mindedness and I learned from your posts! It's great! My main concern is that DH treats her like she is still 3 and BM is what she is and big sister has a big influence on her. I would love to talk to her about this but you advised not to. We do have a relationship like this. More so a friendship more than a strict old school parent (like I am with my three)boundries for my children may be different than his but I am now a part of her life and I don't want this to become a problem later on in her life (Because I love her so much) I try not to step in when it comes to disiplining her because I feel if she retaliates than my DH would blame me. I wouldn't be so concerned but my DH's behavor is even different towards OUR newborn DS also when she is around. Also my own 5 yo DD is picking these actions up from her and expressing them towards her own father (whom is not comfortable with it)I am not a prude and a very easy going person (one who goes with the flow) things usually don't bother me but this does. serenity_now_2007, please I would love you to elaborate more on this for me because I enjoy your input. All of your posts have made me feel better about this.....Tomorrow is Friday........I'm between a rock and a hard place Thank you all

Wistful - I so wish FSD was that open with BF and I. Not even BM informs us when it's that time. We were often unprepared. We have since taken to making sure things are always available, but we haven't even seen her since April so it doesn't matter right now. She'll sometimes tell me she has cramps or something, but, largely, she's kept it hidden. BF talked to BM about it and she says it's because she's embarassed. I doubt it. Most every girl her age has her period by now. BM had "the talk" with FSD and that's when she went from being a Daddy's girl to not talking about anything with us.

it is funny how people twist and turn their words to suit the needs of the particular topic. i was told on many oacssions that since i am not married to SO i should not be even concerned about his daughters and issues around them. Not like I ever call myself SM (someitmes I call them SDs here only for typing conveneince), but then when other posters call a family their arrangments, which clearly are not a family, they are told that it is OK. Why it it OK for some people and is not OK for others? double standard again.

I think that parents do have to recognize children's issues and insecurity and help them to overcome it by some healthy strategies. Spending more time with them talking, showing them boundaries, teaching them appropriate reactions etc . I think that jealousy and envy and insecurity may be normal but it does not mean adults should cultivate it. Because then we end up wiht messed up adults who cannot have productive relationships and are generally unhappy and suffering their while life. (for example "daddy" issue girls grow up looking for replacing their daddy, and it is not working this way, or competing for daddy's attention, does not work this way either)

There are healthy startegies to make children feel secure and happy. Things like sleeping in the same bed is not a healthy strategy. i think if unhealthy behavior is encouraged in children, we end up with unhealthy adults. I love my parents and am eternally greatful for them because they trully are the most wonderful people. Since my SO have met my parents he cannot stop saying: wow, what a people. And it is certainly true.

But...I never felt a need to be that attached or interfering in every minute of their lives, or wrap my legs around dad, take pics of me in a towel or G_d forbid sleep with him in the same bed. Like my grandma used to say: all problems in all relationships come from messed up boundaries. and messed up people are the ones wiht messed up boundaries. She was so right...

and of course maybe I don't compete for dad's because I did not come from a broken family.. but my DD is, but she never competes for dad's attention either. She is content with whatever attention she gets. she knows she is his daughter and his wife is his wife. Boundaries...Of course one might say it is because DD is not romantically interested in men, but then are we suggesting that daughters are romantically involved wiht their fathers? ouch..hope not.

TOS- "(though nine seems a little young to blame puberty for most kids)"
How I wish that this was true...but it no longer is.

From: Advocates Guide: What We Can Do About the Falling Age of Puberty

"...in 1970, the average age of thelarche was 11.5 years. Thirty years later, it had fallen to just under 10 years for U.S. white girls and just under 9 years for black girls, with a significant portion starting breast development before age 8."
A visit to any Elementary School in America could prove this. The "Maturation" Educator said there were only TWO Fifth Graders who HAD NOT "started". (Of course a few may be lying to fit in, as odd as that sounds, but our Pediatrician said that it is very common for puberty to begin at 8 or 9.)

Finedreams - This is what you posted above:

it is funny how people twist and turn their words to suit the needs of the particular topic. i was told on many oacssions that since i am not married to SO i should not be even concerned about his daughters and issues around them. Not like I ever call myself SM (someitmes I call them SDs here only for typing conveneince), but then when other posters call a family their arrangments, which clearly are not a family, they are told that it is OK. Why it it OK for some people and is not OK for others? double standard again.

To what comment and post were you referring?

ashley I am not married to SO, so i was told i do not know anything about stepparenting, and should not be that involved in issues concerning my SO's children and etc. OP is not married to her SO and yet people say that they do have a family. That's why i am refering to. I do not have time to look up actual posts.

sometimes it is just physical development. All women in my family have relativelly speaking large breasts developing very early. DD had breasts very early but beyond that her emotional development was age appropriate. she had no clue about anything at age 8-9. sometimes breasts are just bresats.

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language defines family as:

1. A fundamental social group in society typically consisting of one or two parents and their children.

2. Two or more people who share goals and values, have long-term commitments to one another, and reside usually in the same dwelling place.

3. All the members of a household under one roof.

The question is do you consider your SC as part of your family if they do not live with you? I know my SC include many non-relatives in their definition of family, but not me or my BC, even though I am married to their father.
My stepsister is and always will be part of my family, even though our parents only cohabitated, and one is now deceased.
Dictionaries and legal terms aside, a family is made in the heart.

My DD always drew pictures of a family including long line of relatives on both sides of the family. She never drew a picture of SM there. But i definitelly never said anything bad about SM (had no reason) and DD got along wiht SM, she is the type that gets along with anyone. But she apparently never thought of her as a family, i do not know why. maybe because SMs in her life come and go, but everyone else stays...Maybe definiton of a family is "something permanent"? hmm

I guess I can see where it's a grey area to refer to a parent's SO that they're not married to as "family", but for what it's worth, I always considered by Dad's GF a part of my extended family (whether or not she considered me "family", which I honestly don't know but kinda doubt). And then, of course, when my Dad finally married her and became "Mrs. [my last name]", I viewed it as she married into my family, thus making her status as "family" formally, legally official. Doesn't matter how often or not I have visited... my 2nd cousins twice removed who live in Hawaii are just as much my extended family as my aunts I grew up visiting every month, etc....

In any event, when I used the term "family" in reference to Mom of 6's situation, it was in the context of the fact that family members show affection to each other and occasionally see each other less-than-100% clothed, and that this was normal and natural within certain commonly understood parameters (no exposed genitals or female post-pubescent nip, etc. etc. etc...). I was referring specifically to interactions b/n OP's DH and his child, who it would be extremely difficult to argue are NOT family.

It's actually a very good and relevant question, and I'm just now thinking about it in context... I guess other factors which probably influenced me to regard my SM as family (even when she was just GF and even though I visited only a small portion of each year):

-She entered the picture when I was still relatively young, so I somewhat "grew up" knowing her

-Her role was very omnipresent in my Dad's life, as his partner, as that would generally be...

-And even beyond just that circumstance, her existence in my dad's life, and my interactions with her & her interactions with him, have had a big effect on my relationship with him (to some extent how it would normally be but in other ways even more so than it might normally be)

-In general, I think most kids are told to "mind", "respect" or otherwise take seriously an SP as at least somewhat of an authority... and this can only be justified, really, by establishing the SP as part of the "family" in some capacity (otherwise it's like "who are you and why should I listen to a word you say?")

-furthermore, young SK's under certain age are dependent on the SP (at least partially, part-time, even if only for the duration of a brief visit, even if in concert with the BP). This combined with all the other factors makes it hard for an SK to NOT regard the SP as "family" in some sense... even if it's just a particular kind of "extended family" connection...

It's very interesting for it to be dawning on me that many SP's don't see their SK's as "family", or I should say many ***noncustodial*** SP's don't (hard to picture custodial SP saying this) based on some logic about time/distance/logistics making it not so.

In light of this discrepancy, it may explain a key element in many conflicts between SP & BP, SP & BP's ex-spouse, or SP & SK... Because on the one hand the child is encouraged (or, sometimes, pushed) to see the SP as family (to the extent that they are told to obey them) but if the SP doesn't think of the SK as family, it's like "I can tell you what to do but I don't have to do anything for you", or "I want to be praised for my involvement in your life, but I don't want to take on the responsibility that comes with calling that a 'family' bond", or "you are to regard me as a legit member of your family, but I don't have to regard you as a legit member of mine".... etc, etc, etc....

Not blaming anyone for their honest feelings & attitudes about this, but in thinking about this whole question, it seems like what definitely needs to happen is that the SK's are not put in a position where they're told to regard the SP's a certain way (and therefore divest them with a certain amount of 'legitimacy', 'power', whatever you want to call it) which the SP's are not willing to grant the SK's. Therefore, everyone should be on the same page and this should be stated clearly by all parties from the outset. I think it would eliminate a lot of confusion, resentment and conflict if everyone was on the same page on this matter.... which it seems like most people are not.

FD-
Is it not hormones that cause "just breasts"?
My point, for TOS, was that it is very possible for a 9yo to be pubescent.
Children today not only are maturing biologically faster, but the world they live in is exposing them to much more than it did 10, 20, 30+ years ago. 9 and 10 yo girls take photos of themselves in provocative poses, want clothing that is sexy, and listen to "music" *shudder* that talks about "licking the lollipop" and "junk in the trunk". They play this garbage at the skating rink on ELEMENTARY school outings. These "little girls" dance in ways once reserved for drunken coeds on spring break. They think playboy bunny is cute. They have boyfriends in third grade (or earlier) and some mothers drive them on dates. NOT this Mom.
Today's 9yo is not the same as she used to be.
Even if she isn't totally aware of what her actions imply, it is very possible for a 9yo child to act in an inappropriate way, with anyone, including her father. It isn't too soon to teach her how to act, probably better before the hormones kick into full gear. And certainly before she starts dating.

Gee, not where I live. My kids' friends mostly went through puberty around 11 - and my kids were considerably older than that. Most of them thought boys were yucky until at least sixth grade, and dating in early high school isn't all that common among their friends.

Gawd - how I wish boys were still yucky until 6th grade around here . . . :-)

Has any one else wondered if FSD's new perceived sexual conduct has anything to do with mom having a female partner now?

There is such a wide age gap for puberty. FSD got breasts at about 9 but I think that was mostly due to her being slightly chunky. Still, they looked like boobs. She started to slim down in the next year and I warned BF that we needed to be prepared. Sure enough, she started her period at 11. I, on the other had, was the latest bloomer on the face of the planet. LOL! I didn't start til just after I was 14! I was horrified because some of my best friends haad had theirs since they were 10 or 11.

As far as a "family" goes, even though my son and I are just 2 people, I consider us a "family". But I can tell you that when we're all together, having a good time and laughing and joking, we FEEL like a family. And that's what matters most to me.

I always considered me and DD a family even though we were two people. But then I also consider my extended family a family as well.

I agree with TOS, dating in early high school not that common in my circle either. DD did not date until 19 and in college. But most of her friends did not either. Only one of her friends had a boyfriend in school.

mrsmaddog DD was emotionally like a little girl and looked like a skinny little girl, she just had breasts early same as I. It did not really mean much. We all get breasts early. But she only got period at 13 (same as I). So I don't know where breasts come from, maybe not hormones lol

who's mom has female partner? OP's SD's mom? I did not see that...
this might be a big change for a girl especially if she does not fully understands what it means...Interesting turn..

Fine - nope, Mom of 6. I don't know if it's truly a partner, I could be reading too much into it, but she said "My DH and BM divorced 2 1/2 years ago and she moved another woman into her house."

Just a thought that this could be playing into the situation . . . could be totally off base though.

It must be incredibly hard for a child to understand why Daddy is not home anymore, and is now living in some other house, with some other family and is now Dad to some other kids.

Yes BM went the other direction and now lives/sleeps/whatever else.....with this woman in the same household as SD. I do think it has a little to do with this behavior but I think it is mostly her father with me that is bring this behavior out. I did have a talk with SD over the weekend but DH did NOT as he promised he would do.....Go figure? anyways, I told her that it was not considered cute anymore taking pictures of herself in or out of the bath.....and that "what if someone else got a hold of those pictures?" she seemed to understand and I have a whole new twist to this whole story since it was just SD,DH and I this weekend and DH took my advice and distanced himself from her........Another post tomorrow about this interesting episode (Which, by the way, 9 year old females CAN be manipulative)......Oh by the way my SD does wear training bras and also has 5 boyfriends in the third/fourth grades which 2 of them she has already kissed! (She told me so) So the whole maturity/puberty thing is different for all of them! Depends on upbringing I guess?

"Which, by the way, 9 year old females CAN be manipulative"

Don't I know it! My FSD is queen of manipulation!

I would never guess a 9 yr old could be manipulative. :)

Actually, when FSD was 7 1-2 she was already manipulating the hell out of her dad. Actually, I think it starts the moment they're born. LOL!

I wish i can say that young children are not manipulative...My niece is 5 and she manipualtes her parents like there is not tomorrow...she knows how to push every single button