This is the best conversation EVER! I'm thoroughly enjoying reading everyone's opinions, whether we agree or disagree.

The author of my link seemed to group all people together who live in McM's. That's why I said the person was jealous. Now that I know he/she is/was an architect student, they're just pi$$ed that someone else can do their job. lol

Great builders can be great architects because of many years of experience. Good grief, there sure weren't any architecture schools back when Rome was built.

I am finally getting a better sense of what seem think a "McMansion" is, the large house built in an existing neighborhood that doesn't fit the character of the existing neighborhood and adversely affects the property values of others in the neighborhood but what in the heck can be done about that if the house was legally built to code?

Most neighborhoods do not come with a guarantee that things will remain the same.

I understand the problem though. My girlfriend lives in a suburb within the loop of Houston. The lot on which her house sits is more valuable than her house. Her neighborhood once comprised of 1960 single-family ranch style homes with one car garages, is slowly morphing into a neighborhood of McMansions. The house which looks out of place on the block at this point in time is her house. Her home is now surrounded by 2 and 3-story houses. Her yard doesn't get the same amount of sunlight that it used to get and so plants that once flourished are dying. My girlfriend has decided to sell and move on. I suppose if there's anything happy about this, my girlfriend is able to move, is willing to move and when she sells, it will be for a price 3x what she paid for the house but whomever buys her house, most likely, will raze it and built a larger house. She is not likely to find a buyer of her house "as is."

I don't have a clue how you stop this sort of thing and to some degree, the same thing happened when this country was founded. Native American people used the land differently than the newcomers and we know, for the most part, how that turned out. The Native American people were forced to pull up stakes and move on. Was it fair? No. Was it avoidable? Perhaps but it wasn't avoided. Did the land wind up being put to the best and highest use? Depends entirely on one's point of view.

No answers here but a fascinating discussion.

Yes, Barb5, & Awm03, this was definitely a case of two great minds with but one thought! Amazing. Don't you two both live in NOVA? Maybe it was telepathy...whoa!

Points well taken ladies.

Barb, when you tell me, "As for your neighbor, honestly, the older I get, the more I regard such people with bemusement." I appreciate that. I will keep that in mind. That is a sign of maturity that I admire. My sister tells me, "Stinky, you've just got to feel sorry for her." She is right. My neighbor is good exercise for me to develop more compassion.

To that end, Awm03, I will also remember what you said... "I know one couple who define themselves by brand names too much, but they're screwy anyway, and are the exception to the crowd. " Yes, as you asserted, at the end of the day most people do want about the same things for about the same reasons. It is very insightful of you to see through appearances & come to that conclusion.

Maureen, I love that poem.
"Needs" *are* surely invented for marketing purposes! Living below your means is very wise and admirable. Good for you!

Oakley, it is a good discussion, isn't it? There are very interesting people here with many valuable insights to contribute.

Also keep in mind generational differences, and I don't just mean the homes we grew up in or our perceived value of money.

My demographic is probably a key demographic for McMansions. Early 30s, DINKs or close to it, career-oriented, etc.

Most people my age have no idea what a F/B split is, let alone the differences between American Colonial, Gilded Age, Neo, Post-War, and Modernist.

To most people my age, one of these neo hodge-podgey McMansions is its own style. We don't recognize it for being a little of this, a little of that, colonial windows, Queen Anne turret. We just think it's its own thing.

Once in high school I went home and eagerly told my parents about discovering a new band called Pink Floyd. I didn't know they were an established thing, I just heard their song on the radio and liked it.

Asymmetrical haircuts and jelly shoes aren't "retro" to the 8 year olds just now wearing them, they're just the current style. And kids don't know that Strawberry Shortcake didn't always look like a ho.

Missing that base knowledge that tells you "this isn't new/pure design"...

"Here's what I don't get. Most of these homes are built in new neighborhoods with similar homes. So why the outrage?"

Well, I posted that bit up there indicating that the definition of McMansion has changed from meaning a bunch of big similar homes in the same place (which is what you and I and others were still thinking), to a big house in the middle of a bunch of little houses

Seg, it's actually both. The real "offender" is the tear down and subsequent Goliath that's built to stand next to David. But there are plenty of subdivisions/developments full of nothing but massive houses that people no longer can afford or want, for that matter.

"Seg, it's actually both. The real "offender" is the tear down and subsequent Goliath that's built to stand next to David. But there are plenty of subdivisions/developments full of nothing but massive houses that people no longer can afford or want, for that matter."

I understand that, but it makes it difficult to have a discussion when no one knows what a word means, and when it has multiple definitions that in some (important) ways contradict each other. I was just trying to point that out to someone who had asked a question. That's what the quotes were for. And there were several more asking exactly what we are talking about.

If someone's not familiar with the term ... and I find that a little hard to believe ... there's always the search engine. I think some used that as an excuse to vent outrage. C'est la vie.

I am beginning to think this "McMansion" problem has a large regional variation. In my area, near the Appalachians, the cost of living is lower than average, and we haven't had the overinflation of house prices. We bought well within our means and have spent the last 10 years paying off educational debt. We live in a town of around 40,000. We moved here specifically because we didn't want all of the big city rigamarole that it sounds like a lot of people are exposed to. Rush hour traffic? I don't think so. No problems with merging here.

It saddens me to hear some of the angry tones that I am sensing coming from these posts. Maybe a long quiet walk, run or cycle in the countryside would do you good! (But maybe the real problem is that a lot of you don't have access to it.)

Life in this town tends to be much slower paced. We have remained fairly well insulated from this economic downturn.

As far as construction goes, back to my original gripe, don't all houses use the same gypsum wallboard, wooden framing, and brick? These days building materials seem to be fairly standard and ubiquitous. I don't know that there is that much variation. The difference between good and bad construction may just come down to the concientiousness of the contractor and his subs and workers. We all know that Ikea and Lowe's have some pretty good cabinets these days. I know in this area, the builders are only accustomed to building fairly traditional type housing. So, that was our choice. Ideally what would I like? An old English stone house. But I won't wait for it. I won't chase after it. I've got too many roads to travel and too much life to live.

I know it is meandering, but I've linked to a lovely 15 minute cycling movie below. It will make you want to visit Northumberland. Bon Apetite!

Ooooh, doonie, thanks for that link! Big time pro cycling fan here :)

There's a neighborhood that I know of that in the 1950s was one story modern homes on heavily wooded lots. In the 1990s a design build firm came in and remodeled many of the homes. Typically, they are now two story. But... the developer has exquisite taste, the lots are still heavily wooded, and the resulting homes work wonderfully for families, for entertaining, and general living. Bigger? Yes. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Definitely, yes. McMansions? Not by any definition. Each is unique. Each fits its surroundings.

"And kids don't know that Strawberry Shortcake didn't always look like a ho"

I will pick myself up off the floor now from laughing so hard. Totally OT, but what happened to her since we were kids??

amw03,

My DH had impatient me watch this after a stressfilled day. It was inspiring and calming. We are both big cycling fans. I am glad that I may have improved at least one person's day!

The scenery was magnificent. The best part about riding a bike is taking in the surroundings, and my heart leaped at the idea of riding that great old steel bike in that setting. Paradise! Thanks again.

Avesmor, my stomach hurts from laughing at your Strawberry Shortcake comment.

Seg, I think you have a huge nose and it's ugly!

That's not a judgement mind you, just my opinon freely stated. Sure it's rude, heck it's mean, but it's ok cuz it's not an actual "judgement" (despite the fact that determining self absorbtion levels based on house size is kind of a judgement call don't you think???)

But what do I know? (By the way, I think your little button nose is cute as a umm button...but definately not as cute as strawberry shortcake's but....oh nevermind) :oP

Mean is mean. I think it's easily recognizable to most. Calling someone's home a mcmansion is mean.

When it comes to perceived needs and the needs we have individually, who's to determine what is right. The fact that the average home size is around 2700 sq ft does not mean that all other homes below or above that size are somehow bad homes. I could as easily say that if you built a little hut next to my house you'd bring down my home value. Is the new little house builder better than the new big house builder? And when it comes to that question....is the new builder a better or worse person because they didn't buy something already built????? Heck I don't know and wouldn't even try to tell them their nose was ugly :) I live in homes built in 1983 and 1889 and they both have their pro's and cons. Both are good sized homes for our family due to their layouts (2100 sq ft and then the big box). I can tell you from our stay in a little box in MN last weekend that we "need" more than one bathroom in a house and definately more than one bedroom. If we lived in MN I'd tell you we "need" air conditioning (and yet don't "need" it here in WA nor in Alaska).

And yet people live in huts in Africa without any of those conveniences. So why discuss wants verses needs. If my neighbor needs 20,000 sq ft to be comfortable, more power to them if they can afford to keep it up. If however they only need 800 sq ft and also keep that up, that's just as nice. One thing I do know is that my needs are not the same as my neighbors and I strive not to force mine on them. :) What's that silly phrase....live and let live? Need and let need as well!

I have to go look up strawberry shortcake. Sounds like she's been hitting the crack pipe since my childhood :oP

Oh by the way...I did learn last week in the one bathroom joint that I do actually KNOW that somewhere between one and a dozen bathrooms is the exact number that a person "needs" in a home :oP

One of my problems is that I am a theorist and I can talk about theory ad infinitum/nauseum and think of it as an abstraction. So sure, I can use a derogatory term like McMansion and talk about the cultural ramifications of such and mean nothing by it other than what it means on a societal level. This is why I say over and over again that it is not about the individuals who buy (what my definition of)McMansions (is). I don't think lots of people think much about it over and above location and square footage. Its only people in forums like these that obsess over certain details. This discussion is thoroughly irrelevant to me on a personal level since I live in an urban environment where the lot lines are commonly 12' 13' 16' 20' or 26'. No McMansions here... you either live in a small house, a big house divided into units or a big house all to yourself, and its not all that readily apparent which is which.

That said there are people with no particular taste, there are people with particularly bad taste, there are people with common taste, and there are people with very good taste. And there are regional/cultural variations of all these, but in general there are some common ideas of what constitutes at least good taste and bad taste. And peoples points of reference or interest vary too. My realtor tells me that people will walk straight through a lousy apartment in a highrise and say "WOW look at that view!" and be sold, --as if all they are going to do is stare out the window all day and the rest is irrelevant.

I maintain if there was not "common" there would be no reference for the "uncommon", if there were not banality, there would be no reference for uniqueness, and the same for ugliness and beauty. If there were no such thing as bad taste or average taste,,,how would we qualify good taste?

"So why discuss wants versus needs."

Why not discuss it? Frankly I wish more parents would. As a mom, I insisted on my kids being able to differentiate between the two. When they said "I NEED this," if they didn't, I would correct it to "you mean you WANT this." DIdn't necessarily mean they didn't get the object of their desires, but I did insist that they got the underlying emotions right.

I have to say, they are both low maintainance people who have good level heads on them.

Around the time we were looking at house plans to build, we spent a week up in the mountains in a small cabin, one room, one bathroom. It rained for two days and we got stuck inside. At one point, DS was napping, and DH and I were sprawled out on the bed, each with a good book. I became aware of this wonderful feeling of happiness. I thought about it and realized that I was so happy because I was with the people I loved, I was warm and dry out of the rain, I was learning something from the book I was reading, and I knew I was going to have a good dinner that night.

That's it. A roof over my head, enough to eat, the people I love, and a good public library nearby.Throw in a pair of jeans and a T shirt too. As long as I am healthy, those are my needs. Most everything else is a want.

People NEED health insurance. People WANT granite countertops. For me, it isn't so much a value judgement as a way of setting priorities. The house we ended up building has more than one bedroom, and more than one bathroom. I don't feel guilty about that fact. But I don't fool myself as to what the underlying motivations were.

barb5, that was lovely. The picture you painted of your rainy days in the mountains is evocative and full of wonderful emotion - you should write more often; I wouldn't be surprised if you do so for a living!

Your children are lucky on several levels: on the surface, your family seems to be financially comfortable - at least to the point of spending time in the mountains on what clearly sounds like a family vacation while planning to build a new home. (Full disclosure: my family is similarly blessed.)

More importantly, they have been/are being raised by parents who TALK with them about things that are deeply REAL: honest and realistic priorities, wants vs. needs, and what's present in their lives that allows them to be truly safe and content (well, as safe as any of us can hope our children to be.)

I only hope my own children are hearing and seeing those same values in my DH and me. I like to think so, and I appreciate you taking the time to post such a simple and touching reminder.

It's so very convenient to go for the quick fix of material goods and flashy distractions in our privileged level of society - TOO easy in those moments when we are stressed over trivial issues we've allowed to assume positions of inflated importance in an already busy life.

The real privilege is time ... time w/those we love, time to invest in our most valuable resource and contribution to the future - time to honestly consider the example we set while our children are deciding what kind of people they want to be.

People of substance have been raised in 6,000 sq. ft. of luxury and in 1,000 sq. ft of safe shelter. The root of the so-called "McMansion culture" isn't - in my very humble opinion - what adorns the walls, it's the quality of life inside those walls. Those who are raised to base their self-worth on the appearance of their home may never learn to appreciate what it is to CREATE a home.

Please know this is only MHO: the "McMansions" aren't creating the controversial trend toward ostentation. The owners who need the "McMansion" and the values they model to the next generation should be our true area of concern.

Again, my thanks to barb5 for the reminder that "a chair is still a chair/a room is still a room ... but a house is not a home."

* Upon re-reading, I ask that you please blame any sense of superiority I may present in this post on the fact that I have no business trying to be eloquent at 3:42a. ; O

I subscribe to Fine Homebuilding Magazine. Almost every month they have two or three new or remodeled homes, designed by real, licensed, architects. Some are in cosmopolitan areas, some in residential areas, and some in the country. Some of the designs are quite different, but almost always, they state that the surroundings are a important consideration to themselves and their clients.

On the other hand, there are those builders for whom this is not a consideration at all. Many cities in Los Angeles county, but not most, have enacted building codes to stop these mercenary people from destroying established neighborhoods. Unlike the poster from Texas, these monstrosities have had a detrimental effect on the value of property around them. No one wants to live in a house that is always in the shade and the McMansion builders never pay top dollar for property.

A display of opulence doesn't bother me. A ostentatious display of ignorance does.

Natal, I had never heard of the term McMansion until this year, even though they're building them in my small town now.

Just last weekend we were going out to eat with my son and his family, and we drove past a large McMansion neighborhood and I started talking about McM's. My son asked me what a McM was, and as I started describing the houses he said, "Oh, they're the one's who have no yards and sit a foot from each other." lol

So I think a lot of people have never heard of the term McM.

The video was taking too long to load so I'll have to watch it later. Is it in Northumberland, England? I have a friend who lives there and she's sent me the prettiest water color landscapes of the area. So beautiful!

Barb, your description of the stay in the cabin reminds me of when my kids lived at home and I'd get that content and safe feeling of pure happiness. I miss those days. :(

Igloo, I have to agree, I think calling a home "McMansion" is rude. I wonder how many posters on this board live in one and haven't chimed in because their house is being made fun of?

I'm NOT talking about building one in an existing old neighborhood though.

I also wonder what people in old neighborhoods thought about the homes Frank Lloyd Wright built, and those that followed in his footsteps? To me, his homes were just UGLY and an eyesore. I never understood what the big deal was with his ultra-modern homes. Now if one of those homes were built next door to me, I'd cringe. lol

I just don't see anything wrong with LARGE HOMES, even if they do sit too close to each other. I think the homes are pretty to look at, and I bet the owners actually communicate with their neighbors.

The people I know who live in these large homes are hard working people with sweet families. In fact, I've never seen a McM built outside of a McM neighborhood.

I think we need to differentiate what we're talking about. The large homes being built in old neighborhoods which does make them stand out like a sore thumb, or the large homes being built in a neighborhood of like homes. I think this is where the confusion of complaints lie.

A display of opulence doesn't bother me. A ostentatious display of ignorance does.

T-shirts and bumper stickers for everyone!

Riley605, thanks for the compliments. I opened this thread with some trepidation this morning wondering if I was going to get slammed, so it was wonderful to see your post.

"The real privilege is time...time with those we love..." You nailed it there.

I want to recommend a book to everyone who is engaged in this discussion. It's "Why Architecture Matters" by Paul Goldberger, who is the architecture critic for The New Yorker magazine, and who won a Pulitzer when he wrote for The New York TImes.
Here's a link. I'm not shilling for the book, or for Yale U. Press, but it's a very good primer for everyone who wants to understand what architectural literacy means. We all live in the built environment, and it affects us every day of our lives. What we build is a semi-permanent mark upon the land, and so carries a responsibility with it.

Also "The Old Way of Seeing" by Jonathan Hale. A discussion of how the innate sense of proportion of even vernacular non-"designed" building was lost sometime around the turn of the 20th c. as other priorities of building took over. I don't agree with everything he says: he is a detractor of Venturi, Scott-Brown who, imo, intentionally took "banality" and worked with it.

Wow, what a wonderful discussion! I did a quick google search on McMansion and found this documentary rather quickly... I'm eager to see it. Judging from the opinions above, some of you might be as well :)

Palimpsest, thank you for the Hale referral.
Here in Virginia, vernacular houses were often made using pattern books, which preserved those proportions that can make even the simplest farmhouse feel wonderful. I think the same is true in New England. Unfortunately, most of the early houses are gone because they were wooden, and either burned down or fell down. And at the same time, in the lower South, plain country houses built of heart cypress still stand after two hundred years. Apparently, termites don't like it, and moisture doesn't affect it.

This veers a bit off topic but is a strong indicator of the great regional variation of a "need".

I have been at my parents' house coming on two weeks essentially keeping a bedside vigil for up to 10 hours a day at the local nursing facility. It is a bit over a mile away as the crow flies and as my parents have whittled down, finally, to one car I am walking it at least in one direction almost daily.

I walk through the earliest "development" c.1960--still relatively "affluent", a mixed-income neighborhood of houses big and small and old and "new" (1900-1980) and another mixed neighborhood 1900/1950/1970.

There is not a single yard with a privacy fence, including the few with pools. There is not a single yard with any kind of fence at all except of the incomplete decorative variety. The pools have the most minimal fence allowable by law, except for one that has a tallish wood screen on one side.

There are perhaps half a dozen yards made mostly private by extensive shrubbery. Most boundaries are alluded to by a broken line of plantings.

When I was growing up, people who tried to create lots of privacy around their yards were looked upon with bemusement if not a certain amount of suspicion, as if they either had something to hide or thought themselves polluted somehow by their neighbors.

In fact one homeowner (my dad was on the zoning board) protested the fact that a neighbor was allowed (none of the other neighbors felt strongly enough to object at the hearing )to put up a tall privacy fence at the property line by allowing his grass to grow about four feet tall.

I thought perhaps this would have changed in the thirty years I have been gone but it hasn't: everyone's yard is almost wide open for all to see. I remember being absolutely confused and appalled when I first saw my older, married sisters neighborhood in Florida--every back yard surrounded by a 6-foot stockade fence.

Pal, sounds like there's a lot going on for you right now. Are your parents ill?

You're being a wonderful son, spending so much time with them. I'm sure they appreciate your support & companionship.

Best wishes to you all.

LOL at igloo! I should post a photo of my nose, heh ...

Can we discuss the propriety of an igloo? On the one hand, they're all alike. On the other, they're awfully "green." What do you call a subdivision full of igloos? If my igloo melts and I decide to build a bigger one, who do I piss off?

Yeah one of my parents is there, not permanently we hope, and the other is 86. At this age there is usually something going on--I have to return to work on Monday.

I looked carefully on another walk and found the local version of the privacy fence. Some people do have a tall piece of fence adjacent to the most visible part of their patio...other than that all the neighborhoods are wide open vistas.

I have no idea what the amount of regional variation is on this in terms of how much privacy people need in their own yards.

tomorrowisanotherday, thanks for posting that, do you live in this area too?

Hope all is well, Pal.

How much privacy someone needs, isn't that a want?
I like living in a place where at night, there are no street lights and the cars I hear are 1/2 mile away. The stars are luminous at night and the possums roam (onto our front walkway- I find the droppings all the time).

And although we do have neighbors an acre away, a grove of trees separate us and our house is set much further back then theirs too. I love it and would never want to be so close to anyone that I could hear their conversion, smell their cigarettes, etc.
We were here for 4 years with no neighbors, I loved that better.

Greenthumbfish--no, we are not in Plano. We are outside of Atlanta. I am verra verra familiar with the "mcmansion" concept, to say the least :) I can't decide if I live in one or not, LOL! I guess that might mean I do. Maybe. The house is somewhat large, but we sure use every inch, almost daily. Honestly, we are in our district for the public schools. Don't misunderstand, I love my house, the neighbors are great, and traffic is really not too bad around here, but when the kids are out of the house, I'd LOVE to get out of Dodge and get a much more manageable sized abode.

It's funny, I haven't been around the forum much lately but this very topic has been floating around my mind. Now I have Subdivided on my Netflix queue--I'm looking forward to seeing that.

Pal--I hope things get better for your folks very soon. Hang in there!

I don't know if anyone upthread has mentioned it, but a nice read that relates to this topic is Sarah Susanka's Not So Big House. Here is the link:

Oh pal now I can't post a pic of my sexy new fence lol. (and really it's fab....and necessary!). We put up a fence because our dog is dumb as a rock and our son invites every tourist taking a picture of the block in to see his room ;). But we did make an effort to make it lovely. I wonder how many of those folks have small kids in the blocks you walk on? Or if there is traffic? I don't ever leave ds alone outside but I still love the feeling of security and yes, privacy that fence provides us.

Seg honey. The melting igloo is only a southerners problem. Up in the arctic your melted igloo is someone elses future igloo foundation :p. Or a handy

Barb of course discussing needs verses wants with your children is terribly important. But the difference is thAt YOU get to determine what their needs are verses their wants as would any parent. I do that daily. But the issue here is that someone else is trying to define the needs of others and that's not actually ok. I think that most people know the difference. For instance. I've forgotten who mentioned they have a therapy room in their larger home but I'll use them as an example and go ahead and get beat up for it later ;).

Do you NEED a therapy room. A room dedicated to a period of one to a few short hours in a day? Well most would say no... But for someone who has children or a family member who needs that therapy, they would say yes if not heck yes.

We did home therapy with our sons occupational therapist for some time. While remodeling we didn't have a space dedicated to that so they would hang out in the living room, interrupted by the cat, dog any one else in the house and the phone and doorbell. The therapy worked despite this but I'd be the first to recommend a dedicated spAce to someone who had at home therapy in a heartbeat. Do you NEED the space? Well no but without it you lose some if not much of the therapy being provided due to the interruptions

So I think that family needs the space while someone else might not feel the same. If I'm mom I can make that decision for them. But if I'm not...well really it's not my call.

I'm horrified by the change in SS by the way.

Ah Igloo, now I understand the point you were making. I completelly agree that I don't want to live in a society where some external (i.e. governemental authority makes decisions for me on what is appropriate for me). History is replete with the horrors that result from that.

But I do fully support governmental restrictions on things such as zoning, setbacks, height of fences, etc.

And you make a good point about needs being individualized. Absolutely. One family has elderly grandparents living there, some kids have special needs, families are different sizes.

I was coming from the view of a society that encourages a special sense of entitlement in its members, and I really think ours does. We have SO MUCH STUFF in this country. And a mindset that no one should judge us. I think it was Golddust on the conversations side talking about her son's experience in the Middle East. When her DS came home, he felt guilty about wearing shoes, after seeing the poverty there. I had somewhat the same experience walking into a grocery store in Yugoslavia before the war. There were very few items on the shelves. Basically just a few loaves of bread.

I live rurally, and a HUGE!!! intersection recently went in near where I live. Seven lanes wide. This despite demonstrations and lawsuits by people in the community. Now the bull dozers have arrived and the cornfields are falling. I am sure the McMansions are not far behind. We were told people have the right to live here and do business. There are 5 other communities near the city that are all developed. We are going to look exactly like them. What are the rights of people who like and enjoy a simpler way of life, smaller homes, and don't feel a need for the big box shopping centers? Are we entitled to anything?

Sorry, different topic.

As for fences, we are restricted by covenant from having fences on our property line. We do have enough privacy due to a nice plant barrier, like this:

It can be a hassle -- I don't want a 6ft privacy fence, but with pets and especially other animals, it would be nice to be able to put up something. We had a fairly severe coyote problem for a while, in fact a neighbor exploited a loophole in the fence law by putting up a fence just outside her patio. She has had her smaller dog snatched twice by coyotes. Luckily, both times they were able to beat the coyote with a hockey stick and it dropped her dog. But she was pregnant at the time, and no way was she going to let her baby out there without a fence. They are on a creek, and the coyotes just lie in wait for them to put out their animals.

I've also had cows and deer in my yard, and a couple of summers ago, there was a bear not too far away. I know a fence won't keep out all such animals, but might as well make it more difficult. We are in an inner suburb, not out in the sticks, although there is horse -- and cow -- property all around us still. Thus the cows. But it's not as if we moved out to the country and then were surprised that there were wild animals, you know?

Love the pinwheel heads. ;)

We had an old wire fence for 25 years. It was nice being able to see & chat with neighbors. Drainage problems developed as the result of a previous neighbor's sloppy landscape maintenance, so we opted to replace the fence with a wood privacy. I miss the interaction with a couple neighbors, but I LOVE the privacy.

What am I missing? When did fences become a no-no?

Seg, why won't they let you have a fence? Whether I lived in town or out here in the country, I'd have to have one.

Our acre is enlcosed by barbwire..pasture and wheatfields outside of it. But we put in one of those tall dog fences, the chain link kind, that encloses a large piece of our backyard to keep my dog from roaming (she's a Pointer) and to keep coyotes out.

Of course it wouldn't be "nice" for town, but the fences I've seen are all lovely. I would have to have a privacy fence if I lived in town.

Oakley, I think it's a looks thing. We're not allowed to park in the street overnight, either. But for the fence, some similar neighborhoods have allowed split rails, and those look nice. Most neighborhoods have a list of "approved" fences. But if you have houses with a bunch of different styles of fence, that's not "attractive." Nor are wooden fences that fade and crack and look terrible after a while. (I'm in Colorado, and the sun and dry air really take a toll on them.) So then it's one more thing to enforce by making people replace ugly fences, etc.

Aesthetically, the no-fence look is great. With pets, less great. With bad neighbors, really less great. (Good fences make good neighbors, right?) Luckily we have great neighbors, and enough vegetation that we aren't looking at them during dinner. But things coming IN ....

This isn't a discussion about whether fences are supposed to be a good thing or bad thing, just something I noticed where my parents live--no fences to speak of.

Other places I have lived, fences around everything even if it was a 3 foot chain link. Just regional variations.

I live in a horse community. We need fences. lol Pretty stained fences that are described in our Covenants. You don't have to have them if you don't have horses. We don't have horses but contain the dogs in our 4.5 acres with them. Even though everyone has acreage here, sometimes it is just not enough. Trust me on that one!

fwiw, I need and want space. Lots of space between me and my neighbors. If I was too close, it would drive me insane. Literally.. probably. So I don't want or need anyone having the right to tell me what I can or cannot have in regards to where I live or how I live. :D

I don't need more space than what my city lot provides, but I do require some degree of privacy. If a fence can provide it then so be it.

One other thing that I have noticed, since there are no fences. is that these houses (the majority mid-century) are built to look smaller than they are. Although they are ranches and ramblers for the most part, there is a lot of space tucked under deep roofs that are fenestrated only on the back, the house may be L shaped or T shaped or U shaped. The house may have another story that walks out on a grade below the front yard.

My parents colonial revival, two story with a one story ell from the street, is really a 3 story by 2-1/2 story because of a full walkout level in back, and the house is close to square. Its actually Much roomier than it appears from the street. Compare this to the late nineties center hall colonial revival my sister rents that sits high on the lot with an imposing porch (some have a large palladian center window as well)--and the size is all an illusion: Its not a big house. Its all facade, the garage is 40 % of the house and the house is relatively flat front to back. The front door barely misses the steep front steps to the second floor.

We have really switched from houses that hug their environment and try to reduce their true scale to erect houses that puff up their true scale.

"One other thing that I have noticed, since there are no fences. is that these houses (the majority mid-century) are built to look smaller than they are. Although they are ranches and ramblers for the most part, there is a lot of space tucked under deep roofs that are fenestrated only on the back, the house may be L shaped or T shaped or U shaped. The house may have another story that walks out on a grade below the front yard."

Yes, that is how it is here, too (built in 70s).

there is a lot of space tucked under deep roofs that are fenestrated only on the back, the house may be L shaped or T shaped or U shaped.

That's what we did when we added on. Hardly anything is noticeable from the front elevation.

fenestrated has to be the mcmansion of words. I thought I was cool with cacophony but I have to bow in submission now :oP

Igloo, every discipline has its own vocabulary. Fenestration is an architectural term, so Pal, who is well-versed in the lexicon of his field, naturally uses such a word with ease. Those of us us who are not students of architecture, have to look it up!

Btw, if you think cacophony is cool, try throwing out eschatology at your next party. I'm sure it will send people scrambling for their blackberries.

Now we can all throw fenestration out there! Just don't throw it out the window...lol!

Yes, that is how it is here, too (built in 70s).

Our last home was a ranch built in 1956. The real estate agent was shocked when she walked in the foyer and saw the house. She said she added 50K just walking into the front door and seeing the size of the rooms.

Our current home is deceivingly small from the front. You can't see the entire main level when standing on either side of stone "barn" (aka garage). People always say they are surprised when they come inside, and even more shocked to find so much square footage in the lower level. A big house that lives small is possible.