How about telling them that they are not welcome at your parents house anymore unless they change their behavior and be firm about it? If they show up, call the cops. Is your sister on medication?

You and your parents don't need this, life is too short to be living this way.

Uncle Mike,
Sorry to hear that...your sister needs help, but it doesn't sound like she'll be willing to seek or accept any. (Has she been clinically diagnosed as being bi-polar?? If so is there any treatment that she has been provided that she isn't following through on?) Sadly, emotional abuse and/or neglect is something that the courts/child welfare are slow to act on. If the situation is as bad as you describe (screaming, emotionally unstable mother, living in filth and squalor when they are at home, spending most of their time unsupervised or abandoned at friends houses, and having no relationship with their fathers) then these children are being set up for failure.

Our society seems to be eradicating the role of "Dad" in the family...The fact that your nephews don't know their father, and don't have a relationship puts them at greater risk, even if everything else in their situation was ok, which it is clearly not.

You may want to have a conversation with your parents while sister and children are not around. They may feel that they are "helping" her, but they need to see that her actions are harming their grandchildren. Here are some statistics for you:

Children from fatherless homes account for:

63% of youth suicides. (Source: US Dept. of Health & Human Services, Bureau of the Census)

71% of pregnant teenagers. (Source: US Dept. of Health & Human Services)

90% of all homeless and runaway children.

70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)

85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders. (Source: Center for Disease Control)

80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger. (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol. 14, p. 403-26, 1978)

71% of all high school dropouts. (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools)

75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers. (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children)

85% of all youths sitting in prisons. (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)

That's just from not having dad around. Now add to that a mother that has raised them to believe that the way to 'solve' problems is by screaming and throwing fits, who sides with them against any form of accountability for their actions. Children NEED guidelines, boundaries, accountablilty, dicipline. A parent who does not provide those things is (IMHO) as neglectful as a parent who does not povide food or clothing or shelter. Your parents need to understand that they are enabling your sister to neglect and emotionally abuse their grandchildren.

I'm sorry I can't offer any real solutions. If the father(s) were in the picture, (and were willing) I'd suggest that the children would be better of in his (their) care, though it would require you to speak out against your sisters parenting skills, or lack thereof. (Something that most people are unwilling to do, even though it may be in the best interest of the kids.) Unfortunately that isn't an option. Without fully knowing the situation, it's hard to know if the children would be better off out of their mother's care, if there is no other family member willing to take on the challenge of raising three (emotionally abused & neglected) children.
It sounds like a sad and frusterating situation...I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Kind thoughts,
Verena

It is extremely hard to get treatment for a legal adult who doesn't want it ... so save yourself and your parents. Stay sane and healthy so you can pick up the pieces IF THEY ASK you to.

It sounds like the next time they get obnoxious you will have to take your sister aside and tell her that the behavior is unacceptable. Then tell her that she and her boys are welcome to come back and try again tomorrow. Then call the cops if you have to, but make limits and enforce them.

Yes, it's tough.

Thank you - those are all very kind and comforting words. A huge percent of my inability to deal is in having to hold it all in and feeling alone and helpless. Yes it is true that although she is aware of her disorder and from what i understand in therapy - there is no trust or productive communication. i am considered an outsider in this even though i am right in the middle of it - I sometimes think i am getting through to her although it seems that the damage has already taken its toll in my once "great" relationship with her boys (at least when they were young). There is a strange and consistent resentment for male authority when it comes to the boys. they literally fight all male dicipline and/or guidence with all their might- at all costs. i understand why they get away with it but i dont have any idea how to change it. I know love is a big part of a possible answer and im hoping that one day, God willing, it will all make sense. i hope i find the patience to tolerate it in the mean time. Thanks again. Just these few posts have given me a little peace and courage to persist. Best regards UncleMike

Uncle Mike,
Trust is perhaps the most important ingredient in any relationship--and especially for kids that have been let down so much in their young lives. When kids distrust authority--just think about it. Trust that you are not going to hurt them. Trust that you don't get angry and make outrageous threats, etc. Trust that you mean what you say. Trust that you won't hurt their mother--or cause her grief.

Most kids that I've known that didn't respect authority, had some big hurts in their lives. Somehow a relationship can be had, but you have to know it will take a long time and allot of patience. You can't give in to these kids--I mean you can't cater to them as though they were cream puffs. They seem to want their own way and will fight for it. Am I right? Even though it may hurt you to stay firm--you have to. They have to eventually learn that you are able to compromise, but only in reasonable ways--they have to play a part.

It might do you some real good to seek counseling--just so you can understand how to deal with the nephews.

Of course, you have to protect the sanctity of your parent's home. Ask your parents to help you help the boys. Let them know that you need their help. Perhaps you can let the parents know what the counselor had to tell you, or help you to understand.

Let the boys know what the rules in the house are, and let them decide if they want to keep the rules and be welcome or not.

Best to you.

This sounds like a no win situation. Sorry. But your dad is not willing to back you and change things, nor is your sister or her kids willing to behave any differently. I imagine you need a few sessions of professional advice on what to do here, for your own sanity and peace since you are living with it on a daily basis.

Have you ever been able to sit down with the boys one on one and just talk? Can you ask them what has happened that has caused such pain, anger and disappointment in their lives...and if you can help in any way to fill in where others have let them down or hurt them?
I don't know if it is too late for all of this or if they have any desire for anything to change.

If they have no desire to change and they all continue living like this and treating your parents like this, in my imagination, It would be so tempting to get your parents to sell the house and you and your parents move away and live a sane life elsewhere without your sister and the craziness , which no one can probably change, because they can't or won't. Your parents then have a choice as to whether this is the life as it is that they want to live, or if they want to enjoy their remaining years and move away from the pain that this situation brings. If your parents won't go, perhaps you should start saving up enough money so that you have the option to move away, and begin a sane, new life far enough away so that her craziness does not affect you and a family you may one day have.

I admire your desire to try and help your family and help this situation. But I imagine that not all situations can be solved, especially if the other people involved choose not to change and are comfortable with the constant chaos and termoil they live in. You have heard that some people like the constant drama of fighting and yelling and arguing? That is what they thrive on, and a relationship without it is boring to them.

They live on the railroad tracks...so to speak. And the train comes and they all scream and yell and get off the tracks just in time to avoid the crisis, and as soon as the train passes, they move back onto the tracks...they thrive on the constant crisis in their lives. I read about this once somewhere about the type of people that thrive and exist with constant strife and crisis in their life, only to recreate situations where it happens again and again for whatever reason.

I wish you and your family happier times.

Uncle Mike,
Been thinking about your situation and want to add a few more ideas about kids not respecting authority. Not that you need to read this, but there just might be someone out there that this may help.

What I believe causes kids to loose respect for authority:

A kid does not have to have experienced a great many let downs to acquire a reality of distrust. I think it depends on the intensity of an impression. Just one incident can cause a kid to have a strong distrust for authority figures if the impression is intense enough. Kids often do not have the vocabularity or sophistication to confide their thoughts to someone who can help them sort through their feelings.

Here are some examples. I am not going to include the most obvious reasons--I want to mention those things that don't get attention in the news.

A kid gets ridiculed or embarrassed by a teacher or some other adult. It hurts. The person doing the hurting may be just ignorant, or insensitive, but the hurt is no less real. A kid may come to dislike school or a particular person.

A kid gets treated as if he is less valuable than some other kids--not because of anything he does or doesn't do, but because of the things he doesn't have-the cloths he wears, the things his parents don't have, the color of his skin, etc. etc. So through no fault of his own, he finds out that he lives in a world that is judgemental. Hurtful.

When a parent doesn't take care of you--it doesn't much matter why. When a parent tells you do be respectful and then treats you like you are some garbage. When your mother tells you she will be right back and hours go by and you are feeling so alone. When your dad doesn't have time for you for anything, but has all kinds of time for his fun. When your parents fight and then you get in trouble because you hit your brother. When you get left with a babysitter that treats you bad and you've asked not to be left with that person--but what you think doesn't matter.

These are just some of the things that help a kid have a disrespect for adults. They come to realize that some people say one thing and do something else. Some people are stupid in big bodies. Some people that are suppose to take care of you, don't know how or won't. The world is a crazy place. What you do doesn't matter because life is unpredictable. Take what you want and never mind the rules. Rules are for the dopes.

its pretty incredible how much complete strangers can not only help with insight and validation - but simply with encouragement. The other night when things were over the top i posted the initial plea in a few different forums and this one has really paid off! I would just like to thank everyone who has shared their thoughts - each one has added to my ability to see this as clearly as possible given the circumstances.
It is true, my sister has directed the temper and direction this family was going to take and my father has allowed it and enabled it at every point. Mostly out of fear of what she would either do to herself or her kids,as she has threatened some pretty heavy things about how, where and with whom she would turn to if not granted her demands; one by one over the years she has taken more and more privilege and exacted more abuse with every generation. They all were the result of, what i believe to be her supplementing both income and human relationships via children and child support. She never wanted the man and actually went to great attempts to keep them all at a distance(beyond the incoming checks)

All in all it is dysfunction junction at its best. While i initially had great relationship with the boys- kind of diffusing all the craziness - and just being good ole Uncle Mike - it has taken a slow turn for the worse every time i had to be the disciplinarian in the absence of any other willing authority - then their puberty and independence really ignited a whole new powder keg - given the evolution of circumstances and their total and absolute disregard for any authority let alone male authority.

Now, im really just trying to hang in there for my mom because everyone else seems to pick at her the most, my dad gets it too but he sides with them more than not out of the aforementioned fear and a strange opposition to dealing with them or taking a stand on what is right...He is definitely the enabler even though he resents it as much as anyone. He too can be a very abusive man(emotionally) but not to them. they have witnessed him emotionally abuse my mom just as i have - He really never messed with my sister but i have always gotten both barrels.

I left when i was 19 and only just returned recently to witness the entire family peck at her like wolves. Being that my dad is older and sickly he has lightened up a bit and now its all backfiring on him as well as the rest of us thru her and her childrens rage. Its pretty obvious after knowing what i know and reading the follow up posts that this is the work of many years of pain in this house. Strange but in all of the craziness there is still a hint of love - but its a desperate sort with little patience and a lot of animosity for the truth. I am public enemy number one because i not only try to enforce a little decency but i also speak truths that threaten every ones daily routine regarding the disrespect and unnecessary rudeness.

I have kept myself away and have grown up with a very happy and stable life until i lost the love of my life to a PHD at CALTECH (her not me)I was all that was left of a truly perfect and beautiful 10 year relationship that lost out to science and the pursuit of excellence in genetics - there was no room for me when it came to juggling intense labwork at a highly competitive national institution.

So i came home to regroup and help out only to find a very messed up group of people all screaming at each other. It is out of control and I am very close to throwing in the towel. Even though i am not one to give up easily...i am slowly wearing thin. No one wants to listen or talk except my mom and i really do speak from the heart with love and insight and knowledge. I keep threatening to write a book about this as payback if not a simple exercising of my own demons. I am slowly being absorbed by all of this but thanks to being away for so long i have managed to avoid most of the scars that everyone else seems to have grown.

Its catching up though. Unfortunately. I wish i could say that i believe that i can help but im afraid that they are all stuck in a routine that will never change. If i could just get my father to stand up to all of it i believe the others would fall in line - but he would rather fail than take any advice from me. he truly resents me even though he needs me. Sometimes its so obvious that the more he needs me the more he resents me. Along with that, I am a threat to all because i do see what is taking place and why and no one wants to hear it at all.

I thought i had the skills to rationalize my way thru this and in any other environment i believe they are sufficient - save for this one painful example. This is all the family i have and at the very least - i am not going to leave my mom to the wolves.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble - but for those of you who have shared in this thread - i guess im just spelling it all out in the form of a reply - because of the willingness to share feedback...and because there is always more to a story than whats just on the surface. i felt compelled to paint a clearer picture of what is really going on. And i want to thank you all for caring enough to help out a complete stranger.

thanks again
UncleMike

Dear Uncle Mike,

We all wish you happier days ahead. This is so difficult because you love your family and want to help, and yet no one will listen. And so the pain continues as the craziness intrudes on your life, through no fault of your own. And yet you have to deal with it. And your mom too.
I respect your willingness to protect her as best you can from those who are so quick to tear her down. She must be so proud of the man you have become. You are the one who blesses her, and lets her know that despite the pain and disappointment that your sister brings, that she did not fail as a mother, because you (her son) reminds her that she must have done something right, to have such a son.

It seems like a no-win situation. Only you and possibly your mom seem to care. Your mom has put up with it so long that I doubt that she will actually fight for change when it comes down to it.

You've tried and you have done your best. You can't change your sister or her kids. Kids grow-up and change. Sometimes to better people and sometimes to worse. And your sister knows she has problem but it's doubtful that she will make any real long-lasting change. And you know that your dad is not going to change.

You can't change them or fix this problem. Get out! Get on with your life! Start your own family and enjoy what a family is really suppose to be like.

Uncle Mike,

It must be frustrating to see your parents demoralized in front of you and helpless to affect change. If you are not ready to live away from home, no doubt that would be an additional frustration. You may also have some issues regarding your parents that have caused you frustration and anger (presently or in the past), and even though you may not recognize your need for some insight into your own feelings, you might consider that with some new perspectives you might be able to maximize your ability to deal with people you cannot change.

Yes it is the most frustrating thing i have ever experienced. Take for example family birthdays and holidays - the last couple of years have been a great source of pain and manipulation to hold out and boycott special occasions because i have "alienated" the boys for reprimanding them for their bad behavior. Now, because they are
unwilling to follow a couple of simple requests to show kindness and decency (when they are in this house) - they refuse to participate in any family gathering that includes me. This makes me the "bad guy" simply because i have said ENOUGH!

Its amazing to me how much control the two boys have over this family thru guilt and manipulation although i am not surprised having lived it with their mother thru present day. I have literally spent both of their young lives loving and understanding and reasoning with them - spoiling them with favors - unique treats and hand me down heirlooms - (rights of passage stuff) - things i take great joy in passing on to a young man growing up in my family - to have all of that cast aside for literally a few separate moments of necessary discipline; as they are more than willing to throw away the love(although they dont understand it) all for absolute control and manipulation - it is something i dont understand. They have so very few people in their lives that care let alone LOVE and to trash it all over an immature unwillingness to accept responsibility for their own actions is discouraging to say the least.

Sometimes i think i stay at everyone's peril. Its not my intention but it is the result. I dont need to be here for myself and i am actually loosing a lot of time and direction by refraining from getting on with my own life and family. Many tell me that i need to look out for myself too and although i couldnt agree more - it is hard to let go of the only family i have ever known - let alone my poor parents. i have witnessed so much and cannot see them being left to deal with this alone. It is obvious that if i was not here to put my foot down - although they would continue to abuse - it may be more of what my family wants than my solution. Today is my fathers birthday and he is not long for this world - the only thing that means to my sister and her children is another moment to put an exclamation point on how bad of an uncle i am because they will not come over as long as i am here. Their solution is to not only boycott my fathers birthday but to hold my presence over this family as the sole reason for the unrest. I have come to understand the tactics of diversion and redistribution of blame and responsibility. I have offered to leave although i know it is not the right solution - it may be the only solution. I hate it. I know it is wrong and yet the right answer appears to cause more pain than the initial symptom. I never thought that children could wield so much power - but when enabled by two of the four family members i am beginning to understand.

Perhaps you should ask your parents whether they would prefer you to move, and they would go back to the way things were with your sister and her children. Keep in mind that they may wish you to move, but it may not be the reason you think. As a parent, they may ask you to move because they love you and want better for you. They may not want your life marred by the insanity your sister brings, and believe that it is their problem and their life sentence to be there for her, regardless of how badly she behaves. they may feel she is not entirely well and therefore "needs" them in a way that you do not. This can happen in a situation where parents have a severly handicapped adult child. Instead of accepting help from the siblings who can see that their parents are tired and struggling, they will reject the help. I believe that they do this because they want to set the sibling(s) free to live the best life they can without the burden of caring for their severly handicapped sibling. And they as the parents will struggle as best they can, living out their life as best they can, and knowing they are desperately needed by this adult child of theirs who they know will not make it without them. And it is their life. You do not know yet what your life will be, but one day, you may have children and a wife of your own. And you will understand this powerful love a parent has for their children, no matter how old. And the sacrifices you will make for your children, especially if one needs you in a way the other(s) do not.

Does that make sence?

And so, if they let you go, understand even if they are not able to say it in so many words, that they are setting you, their son, free, to put together a good life as best you can. Live well, and put together a family that is emotionally healthy and happy and brings them that deep joy of knowing that through you...they did well.

Perhaps you should ask your parents whether they would prefer you to move, and they would go back to the way things were with your sister and her children. Keep in mind that they may wish you to move, but it may not be the reason you think. As a parent, they may ask you to move because they love you and want better for you. They may not want your life marred by the insanity your sister brings, and believe that it is their problem and their life sentence to be there for her, regardless of how badly she behaves. they may feel she is not entirely well and therefore "needs" them in a way that you do not. This can happen in a situation where parents have a severly handicapped adult child. Instead of accepting help from the siblings who can see that their parents are tired and struggling, they will reject the help. I believe that they do this because they want to set the sibling(s) free to live the best life they can without the burden of caring for their severly handicapped sibling. And they as the parents will struggle as best they can, living out their life as best they can, and knowing they are desperately needed by this adult child of theirs who they know will not make it without them. And it is their life. You do not know yet what your life will be, but one day, you may have children and a wife of your own. And you will understand this powerful love a parent has for their children, no matter how old. And the sacrifices you will make for your children, especially if one needs you in a way the other(s) do not.

Does that make sence?

And so, if they let you go, understand even if they are not able to say it in so many words, that they are setting you, their son, free, to put together a good life as best you can. Live well, and put together a family that is emotionally healthy and happy and brings them that deep joy of knowing that through you...they did well.

yes! that really does give new light and perspective to the same old problem. its obvious that my parents are willing to tolerate the nonsense - and boiled down - it seems that i am the factor that is, at the very least, adding to the unchangeable friction - although i realize it may not be my place to dictate how everyone should live i couldnt just ignore it - im troubled that such fundamental input would be that easily rejected and such a simple request to be just a bit nicer would be met with complete opposition... even if i do decide to let them all be - i feel that i had to, at the very least, draw my line in the sand and stand up to the outrageous behavior. someone needed to tell them how unacceptable that sort of behavior is even at the expense of perceived peace. it really is a no win situation for almost all involved. all i can hope is that they may recognize that i am not the problem. at a minimum maybe they will make a distinction in the future as to what is right and what is wrong. thats a bit of a stretch considering - but its the best i can hope for at the moment.

I myself am so ready for peace and the love of a healthy relationship -but, honestly, i dont know how i am going to go forward. Much easier said than done, from my perspective. one day at a time i imagine.

thanks for everything...this has really helped me work thru the latest grief. i cannot express my appreciation enough. Thank You.

Uncle Mike...download the advice that others have shared to encourage on the hard days. I hope that one day, you will find someone wonderful, healthy emotionally who makes you smile, and who is such a blessing in your life. My hope is that you will put together your own family one day and they will bring such blessing to your life. And perhaps to the life of your parents, who struggled so with your sister and her kids. I wish you happier days ahead Mike.