I definately think its time for the adults to have a conversation...

I think it is shameful for an adult to make a child feel sorry for them and guilty.... and, I think that the bm should be told so (in a nice diplomtaic way ofcourse) but when it comes down to it... I think the adults need to agree that it is the daughters decision without people trying to make her feel guilty... she has every right to decide that she needs some time with her father and siblings without having to feel guilty about it....

I can understand mom being sad... but I dont think she should be hurt by her daughter wanting to spend time with her father and siblings... it is not against her ... would she be hurt because her daughter wants to go away for college in a few years... parents take care of their children not the other way around...

Gee, I wonder if the BM ever considered how Dad felt when she took his kids away?! My DH's ex tried to take his kids away too, but his poor 13 y/o was forced to make a choice.....and chose his Dad. He took lots of guilt for that and it was very difficult for him (though he knows how unstable she is, so he was quite wise for such a young boy). Anyway, it infuriates me to hear stories like this where the BM's think of the Dad as a wallet....take the kids away but be sure to continue to take his money. It's like they see the Dad as a "nice to have"!!!!! Dads are absolutely equal in "claim" to their children (forgive the term, but....you know what I mean)

It sounds like this girl misses her Dad and maybe wants to spend some quality time getting to know him before she is off as on her own in 4 years.

I def think the adults need to talk and that poor girl needs to be taken out of it because it will come down to "her choice" and she will have to live with the guilt and consequences of that. Perhaps Dad should go to court and make a case for why he wants his daughter to spend time with him now -- stating that the girl would be willing to do that.

Are you sure there isn't anything else going on? I mean, if her mother is capable of acting like this during this discussion, perhaps she acts like this whenever she doesn't get her way....maybe she burdens the children more than she should and they feel pressure? Our BM is great at manipulation and guilt and really lays it on (I even overhead "do you still want me to be your mother?"). Not saying this is the case, but try to look objectively at other interactions and see if maybe the girl really feels that she needs a break from her mom too. Just a thought....

We had the exact same situation with my 2 SD's 2 years ago. At the time they were 15 and 9, and wanted to come live with us. 15 year old SD went to mom and expressed their desire to live with us. Mom freaked out, told SD she was going to die because she was raising her blood pressure, called all of her sisters and had them talk to SD and tell her how she was affecting her mother, etc. (We found this out through one of the sister's husbands who is still friends with my dh.) SD was so affected by this and racked with guilt it has completely changed our relationship. She and I were very close, but after this she began to pull away from me as if she was betraying her mother. It is very sad that a BM would manipulate a child that way. These kids love both their parents and should have the right to say they want to live with the other parent for a while (as long as they are equally safe environments.)

In most states custody is not up to the kids, but to the courts. It is interesting that people who claim that children should not run the household are fine with them making major life decisions like moving in with the father.

In our state the child has the ability to make that decision at age 14.

I agree though that just because they CAN doesn't necessarily mean that they SHOULD. I was convinced that my SD would choose to live with us once she turned 14, but so far she hasn't.

There is a difference between a child running the household and a child making a request that the adults consider on its merits and acknowledge that the child's reasoning is valid.

My response to TOS is exactly as colleenoz said: there is a difference in letting a child run the household and considering their feelings and opinions. I always ask my SS for his opinion -- to show that I care about what he thinks -- but that does not mean that what he says goes! If I do not take his opinion, I tell him why (helps him to learn to think scenarios through too.....). As Vivian31 says too -- just because they CAN make the decsion (her state laws) doesn't mean they should or get the final decision.

And let's not forget that we're talking about a situation where a child may miss the other parent, may know that they want to bond more and may genuinely want to get to know them more. Funny thing is that if it was a case of a child wanting to leave Dad's house for Mom's you'd be all over that like "duh, of course they should go....it's the MOM"!!

In my state, a child can choose at age 14 as well. If you notice the last line of my post (TOS), I stated I felt it should be allowed IF they were equally safe environments. I don't think a child should be allowed to move if the other household will not provide proper supervision or such for the child. In my case, (and in the OP's case), both homes are equally appropriate. The children want to move so they can get to know the other parent, and at different times in a child's development, they crave the same sex and sometimes the opposite sex parent. In addition, we only live about 30 minutes apart, so the children could still see thier mother whenever they wanted to. It was just selfishness (and not wanting to lose her precious CS) and that is not right. Why I continue to respond to TOS or KKNY, I am not quite sure. If a stepmom says the sky is blue, they will argue. But I digress....

Replies to multiple posters follow:

mom of 4: I agree with you 100%. My oldest son actually decided to put off college for a year and go to Europe. Now...I miss him terribly, and wasn't 100% sure that it was the best idea for him, but I put my own feelings aside and supported him, as he seemed to have many good reasons for his well-thought-out plan. Not exactly the same, but quite a similar situation. BTW...he will return in August from his year abroad....YEAH!!!!!

jerseystepmom: Agreed! And yes, she new exactly how he felt when she moved away with the kids! But she really didn't care. I don't think that there is anything else going on...I'm sure BM is reacting out of fear and sadness, which I understand. It's just sad that she can't focus that fear and sadness more appropriately than heaping it on her kids.

lafevem: Although, I don't know if BM has said any such things, DSD did say that she "was worried that her mom wouldn't be able to "go on" if she left her there with no kids". I think DSD is worried that her mom might be suicidal. What a load of guilt for this kid...who really is a fantastic young lady. We are trying to be supportive and honest with her, without adding to her "guilt load". DSD and I are close, and I don't want to jeapordize that. BTW...who is KKNY?

theotherside: In MI, custody is indeed up to the courts. However, the judges tend to consider the wishes of the child beginning around age 13 if they feel like the child is mature enough (whatever that is) and that the reasoning for the child wanting a change is appropriate. We certainly do not feel that our children should "run the household" or make "major life decisions" without appropriat guidance of their parents. However, we do feel that our children are intelligent & mature enough to be able to say which parent they wish to reside with. If the kids had stayed in MI when their mom moved to NC, I expect we would be experiencing this same thing, in reverse.

vivian31: agreed!

colleenoz: agreeed!

Thanks everyone for the continued feedback....I'll keep you posted on the outcome...she comes next week for the summer! YEAH!!!!!

"like moving in with the father"

TOS, you never cease to appall me with your posts.

Maybe not this custoDy dispute, but how many are driven by X and Sm wanting to cut out CS? I wonder if CS were not a question, would SM be supporting getting Stepchild in their home.

In my case, I settled for property settlment and place for child in dads will, education and misc costs (which are payable regardless of where she lives), but no CS. Coincidentally -- X and GF dont ever want DD; DD never goes to his house, just has dinner with him occassionally (and I am willing to let her go there whenever she wants, even arranging for transportation)

weed30~

I second that! OH MY GAWD...how dreadful....that a child that has a close, loving relationship with her parent should actually have the opportunity to live with that parent.....yeah...appaling...gimme a break...

kkny~

CS not an issue here...as we have DSS and they have DSD, neither pay CS. We cover all of his expenses, and they cover hers.

However, now that you mention it...I imagine if we had both kids, that would become an issue...an issue we haven't even considered. But I like your idea of covering misc costs in place of CS, the main misc cost be travel expenses. At present, we pay for DSS and they pay for DSD. When both kids lived in NC, we paid for 25% of their travel expenses, in addition to hefty CS (1/3 of DH's gross pay) and 50% of medical/dental.

If DSD moves here, I would be open to no CS, in exchange for BM paying for all travel (since her move is the reason there is any travel expense to begin with) and 50% of medical/dental not covered by insurance (which is nearly nothing, as DH is a teacher and we have AWESOME insurance!!!)

But really, I think it would be best if BM and stepdad returned to MI, living nearby, so both kids could have easy access to their parents on any given day...that's what kids want

nicksmom, I was referring to the language choice.

"moving in" vs "wanting to live with"

"the father" vs "their father"

"moving in" is what you do with a roommate.

"the father" sounds like a reference to a sperm donor, or an inconvenient object.

weed30,

Well I second that, too! But I still think the content of TOS's post was appalling, as well...like it's criminal for a child to want to live with their father...what is so wrong with that? I'm curious...

I'm not sure what's wrong with it, but I am certain that TOS will be along to enlighten all of us.

weed30,

Thanks for the warning! Yesterday I found another message board that looked to be legit...legal-type forum. Well, come to find out, it looks to be run by lots of angry people, some of whom actually ARE attorneys, etc. But I find myself feeling ornery & irritable after posting and replying there...and it looks as though some of that irritability carried over here...

I apologize for being "short" earlier...it's really not my nature...

I still appreciate most feedback...even the feedback that I don't necessarily agree with, as it helps me see another point of view...thanks!

nicksmom - LOL - when you said you found another board that is "run by lots of angry people", I knew exactly the one you were referring to. I only went there a few times. Believe me, you got off EASY. (yeah, I stalked ya ;)

There are a bunch of extremely nasty attorneys running that board. They seem to enjoy making sport of demeaning/ridiculing people that post there.

I was pointing out that custody decisions are NOT up to the children or even teenagers in most states, in which case suggesting to the kid that she can make the decision is incorrect and inappropriate.

Geez, are you nitpicking. I used "the father" because it applies to both female and male children, and "moving in" is what you do when you go to live somewhere different from where you lived previously. There is no subtext here...

tos,

OK...thanks for the clarification.

Let's say that you, tos, are the NCP. What if your daughter lived with her dad & stepmom, who she has a good relationship with. And comes to you & stepdad, who she has a good relationship with, and says to you, "you know, Mom...I've been thinking about this for a really long time, and I think I'd really like to come live with you, for high school Mom". And she proceeds to tell you all the reasons why, and they are all "good" reasons, not because she's mad a dad or stepmom, or doesn't like her chores, or wants more freedom...etc...

First of all, I imagine that, since your ex values the importance of your child having both parents nearby, he wouldn't have moved far away...but just for this hypothetical situation, lets say he did...

So, how do you respond to your 14yo daughter when she comes to you telling you that she wants to live with you....spend more time with you before she's an adult and goes off to college, that she wants to experience living with her siblings and going to high school with her best friends and graduating with them.

Do you tell her "too bad", "tough luck"....the courts said (9 years ago, wen you were 5) you have to live with your
father, and that's that. You have to stay with him until you are 18...no questions asked.

Is that what you'd do if your child came to you?

I can not even imagine being a NCP. I can not even imagine choosing to divorce. I can imagine separating if the other parent were a homicidal drug addict, but I gather that is not the case in this scenario.

I don't understand how her "best friends" can be living in the area where the NCP lives, if she hasn't lived there since 1997. Very few kids keep the same best friends from 5 until 14, even if they don't move.

tos~

Are you a stepparent? Because if you're not a stepparent, nor a NCP, then I'm having a hard time figuring out why you'd have any interest in posting on this board.

But, back to the original questions...which you avoided...just use your imagination a little. I'm very interested in how you would respond to the situation I posted.

Like you, I cannot imagine choosing to divorce either, but that's neither here, nor there. DH and his ex divorced after she had an affair. DH wanted to "work on it" and tried to salvage the marriage, but the fact of the matter is she still wanted to party, and he was beyond that and only interested in his family and career...ready to leave the party scene behind.

I was not married to my oldest son's father, so have never been faced with divorce. However, I cannot imagine choosing divorce either. Not now. I plan to stay married to my husband until the end, knowing that there will be rough spots. I imagine that most people take divorce seriously, and do their best to avoid it...then again, given the divorce rate, they need to try harder. I think it needs to be more difficult to divorce than it is to marry.

But, tos....please....back to the question I asked in the previous post....kindly give it some empathetic consideration and let me know how you'd respond or how you think DH and I should have.

Could you please respond to my question about how she could still be best friends with kids she hasn't lived near since she was a preschooler? And what about her friends at her new home?

No, I can't imagine being a NCP. I would have done whatever I had to, no matter how high the legal fees, to prevent that from happening, but fortunately that was never an issue.

Just out of curiousity, if your husband didn't want the divorce, why did he leave the house, assuming he did? Normally that has an adverse effect on one's chances of gaining physical custody. The person who has the affair should be the one to lose custody in almost all cases.

In many states, including mine (Florida) having an affair has no bearing on custody. These are no fault states and a judge will not even address those issues. My DH's ex had an affair, the judge ordered my husband out of the house when the divorce was filed because she was a SAHM, she moved the boyfriend in the next day, and those facts could not even be presented in court because they are meaningless in a no fault state. So your assertion that an affair usually means loss of custody is not true, and in Florida at least, most times the mother will be granted temporary use of the home and the father will be made to leave as soon as the divorce is filed.

In most states, you can write into the orders that no one of the opposite sex can stay overnight while the children are present until the divorce is final. Even in a no fault state, you CAN file for a fault-based divorce.

Not in Florida my friend...unless you are filing on the basis of mental incapacity of other party or abuse. Adultery is not grounds for "fault". Trust me..my ex had an affair so I know all about it.

BTW...my DH had the no overnight guests clause in his paperwork, and they proved she had moved BF (now hubby)in, but she said he was a friend sleeping on the couch, so the judge said he thought that was ok. Again, a mother in FL will not lose custody unless you can prove she smokes crack and is a hooker. Several of us on this board who live in FL have been told the same thing by many different attorneys.

tos~
How she and her best friends have maintained their friendship, despite the miles, is a source of amazement to all of us. They have a very special relationship and they are all so close. I was just speaking to one of the other mothers last pm, and we both continue to marvel at the strength of their bond. They make it a point to spend lots of time together whenever they can (when she's here for visits). My stepson is best friends with the 2 older brothers in the families, and we adults are friendly as well...have occasional cookouts, pool parties, etc. Although, I think the kids friendship has fostered the adult/family gatherings....

As far as her friends in NC...the majority of her non-school time is spent in dance class, so she is friendly with the girls she dances with. But she says that she really doesn't have any super-close school friends that she "hangs out with", etc. She rarely has sleepovers or talks of anything she does with other kids there. Mostly she is at the dance studio...she's a very accomplished dancer. Lack of good friends there was actually one of the things she discussed when she brought up the idea of coming here for high school.

So tos, it's your turn....are you a step-parent? Are you a NCP? What would you have told your daughter in the "hypothetical" situation I posted?...seriously WWYD? Like you, I have no intention of EVER divorcing, but I can "imagine" what I'd do if I were faced with a similar situation....so, please, tell us what you'd say.

For the record, my DH fought the move in court. Michigan is a no-fault divorce state, and spousal infidelity has NO bearing on custody, whatsoever. Michigan is VERY pro-mom, despite the fact the courts say they have no "gender bias". Essentially, the only time a mother does not win custody is if she can be deemed "unfit", due to drugs or extreme circumstances. Even homeless mothers win custody here...since we have many women/children shelters, etc. It's really disturbing that the courts do not really have the best interest of the child as their main focus.

At the time of his ex-wife's affair, the children were ages 1 & 4. Since they were babies (toddler) he felt that the kids should stay in their home, and with his work schedule at the time, it just made more sense for her to stay in the house. He got an apartment closeby with the understanding that it would be temporary while they "worked on it". Obviously, the outcome was different than the plan.

Trust me, if he could have changed the outcome of the custody situation, he would have. Initially, they had joint custody, 50/50 split. When she decided to move, she filed for sole physical, joint legal. He fought it and lost. The judge thought that her soon-to-be new husbands job promotion was more important than children having close, easy access to both parents. That was the sole deciding factor...her husbands increased income. So they can use spouse income to decided custody, but they won't use it to calculate child support...go figure...great court system.

Just because a mother is homeless doesn't mean she shouldn't have custody. It would normally mean she isn't receiving sufficient child support. If the father can afford rent but the mother can't, then clearly child support is insufficient to ensure that the child has the standard of living of the parent with the wealthier parent.

I am sorry that you had such an awful judge. I can understand why a one year old should be with the mother, especially if she is nursing, like she should be. What I can't understand is how anyone with a baby would even want to have an affair - if I'd had any spare time when my kids were that little, all I would have wanted to do was sleep!

In my state, it is almost impossible to get permission to move out of state if the father fights it. My lawyer recounted a story of someone who wanted to move just over the border because her new husband's job required being on the ocean - something to do with boats, I think. I believe it was about 45 minutes farther away from the father. The judge would not allow the move. They ended up moving to another location, also on the ocean but within the state, a couple of hours away from the father. The courts couldn't do anything about it because in-state moves are allowed.

I tried unsuccessfully to get the courts to adjust the child support based on imputed income because my ex-husband has almost no expenses. Almost all of his income, which was about the same as mine at the time and now is considerably more, is disposable, except for the child support, because he, by his own admission in court documents, does not contribute to the mortgage or utilities. I'd have plenty of money if I didn't have mortgage or utilities - my mortgage, on a tiny house, is only slightly less than my entire net income from my full-time professional job, and rent on an apartment would be about the same. I am currently still trying to get him to pay less than fifty dollars for half of a required school activity that he told me he would be glad to pay several months ago. Apparently his wife nixed it.

I really can't answer your question because I can't imagine not having custody.

OK, tos...I'll go first. I can't imagine ever DIVORCING...let alone being the NCP...but I have a pretty good idea that I would NEVER move my kids away from a very involved, good father...I would NEVER alow THAT to happen. But, if the other parent moved away and my child, at an age where their wishes should at least be considered, came to me with good reasons for wanting to be with their father...in my heart of hearts, I truly think I would have to honor that request. Children deserve both parents, and need dad at times more than mom. It would definitely be heartbreaking from a selfish standpoint. But, I think I could be logical about the situation, and think with my head, and not my heart.

OK...now, could you give it a whirl? Or how about this...how do you think her father should respond to her requests?...how about her mother? What advice would you give?

But why would you be in the position of divorcing a good, involved father?

I think one of the parents should move, most likely the mother in your case.

tos...

I wouldn't be in the position....but DH's ex did indeed divorce a good dad. Her loss, my gain. It's just too bad for the kids who've had to deal with the fallout of their mom's decisions.