No, it is not parental alienation. You cannot prove that Mom told her to say that or if SD is saying that to add fuel to an already burning fire, for one.

If Mom was really trying to do that, I doubt she would take SD with her and let her go with you and DH.

Wiki parental alienation for the definition. It is much more in depth.

Sadly, it's just an example of a parent who will stoop to underhanded tactics to get what they want . . . assuming what she says is true. My SD's mother FOR YEARS would give SD scripts for when she came back from visitation. She also had a list of things she could not say. What she didn't realize is that just as your SD did, she would say the script and then tell us she was told to say it. What was really 'cute' was when she would mispronounce words so that when we tried to figure them out she'd get exasperated and say "That's how Mommy said to say it!"

You are right, the kids are bright enough to get it. What mom will do if she continues this is damage her relationship with them and achieve the opposite of what she wants.

I will say that remarking that 'she wants you to lie' may not be the best way to respond, though I know your frustration. It may be that SD is still feeling a little torn and it isn't totally a lie, even if she presents a different face to you. It may be better just to say that you trust that she will be able to express for herself what she wants without needing a script from anyone.

I'm afraid you are right - more drama will surely follow. . . keep your chin up.

I can tell you from my own experience, it is a form of parental alienation. That alone will probably not alienate a child but telling a child what to say to the other parent or what to want is, in a way, putting a child in the position of having to choose one parent over the other. My mom did this when I was a teenager. She made me feel guilty for liking my dad's wife. She played the victim and I was always at the top of her guest list for her pity party she threw for herself. I was torn and didn't see or talk much to my dad while I was still a minor. I spent my teen years taking care of and worrying about her instead of having fun like normal teens. She's used guilt to this day in trying to get me to do what she wants. Years later (when I was in my 20's), I reconnected with my dad and we now have a great relationship and I see him often. I hardly see my mom. Partly because of things she did as I was growing up and partly because she has never really changed, apologized or had any remorse for what she ever did. She still finds other people to blame for things, including me.

I agree with Martha that the remark was probably not the best way to say it, but at 15, I think this girl knows her mom pretty well and it sounds like she's chosen a different path than to follow her mom's lead. I say 'good for her!'

Good luck.

gigglemonster-
I'm quite sure SD wouldn't make that up...that's just not her M.O. She's not about adding fuel to fires. We are lucky, that way. And, you're right, there's no proof, but we tend to believe her. It wasn't malicious at all on her (SD's) part. It was just a quick statement, "before she forgot" to pass along "her" message. As for allowing her to come with us, it's our weekend for visitation anyways, so the plan was always that she'd spend it with us.

justnotmartha-
That reminds me of the time last year, when Mom was working on the guilt trip, and told SD that her best friend (who are here) are only her friends "because I'm a novelty"...."What's a novelty?". I just shook my head. As for the lying remark, I didn't say "she wants you to lie". I asked a question of SD, "so you're going to lie?". I was very careful in choosing my words, as I didn't want to assign any blame to mom.

imamommy,
Your story sounds remarkably similar to SD's. I fear for her relationship with her mother disintegrating because of Mom's guilt trips. For whatever reason, SD has gotten the message loud and clear that she is responsible for her mom's emotional well-being and happiness. We have reminded all of our kids that they are not responsible for the grown-ups happiness.

Thanks again for all of your replies.

on ocassions I told DD unless you know 200% it is sometimes wise to say you are not completely sure yet.

here is an example. DD wanted to change high schools before her senior year, no amount of my tears stopped her. she said i am 18 and can do it. She called school herself and started the process. this was not a regular public school, but IB (international baccalaurette) school out of district and it was hard to even get there to begin with. so if she would get out, she cannot get back in and she would lose these years on working on international baccalaurette diploma because she would not get it.

That same night after prolonged conversation about college plans, she came to her senses. she said she was embrassed to call them back next morning and to say she changed her mind. I called and they said oh we are glad you called not one hour later because we were about to start paper work process to get her out.

so she graduated with IB diploma and is in college of her choice.

what i am saying, kids and teenagers change their minds or often do not understand all ins and outs. so this girl of age 15 cannot know for sure what is the best for her or even what she really wants. i don't see a big problem with mom suggesting to say: i am not completely sure.

The problem here is that Dad spoke with SD intensively about this, even discussing Mom's reaction after SD told Mom her wishes. Nicksmom said that Dad now knows that was wrong, but I believe they don't understand the tone they have set for this.

And I agree FD, teenagers often don't know or will change their mind. More the reason that Mom and Dad should keep her out of it after hearing her initial wishes. But again, this was brought to Mom who is the custodial parent so it is hard to say with day to day living how much SD is bringing this up and even harder to say to Mom how to react to it.

giggle,

when DD was planning on switching high school for stupid reasons, she was at dads over the summer so i called X and ask him to be on the same page with me. When i asked DD what dad says she told me: dad says as long as I graduate form high school and get to college he does not care about switching schools. it did not sound like my X! when i called him, furious, he said: i never said that i do not care. he said: you need to listen to mom's rationale about graduating from this particular high school because I (dad) do not know enough detail about schools and you have to listen to mom because she knows what she is talking about! so she interpreted what dad said to her own advantage.

so i am not entirely sue what and how kids say or interpret. and then SD is only 15.

finedreams,
I agree. Kids do change their minds. I don't think that's the case here, though. She's been talking about coming back here to live off and on since 6th grade. It's been in the back of her mind, or in her "plans", to go to high school here for a long time. I think that's just how she's always imagined it would be, in her mind...even when she wasn't talking about it, clearly she was thinking about it. She's never waivered. I'm quite certain she's "200% sure". And if SD hadn't told mom, several times now, in really plain English what her wishes were, I'd agree that it'd be o.k. for Mom to suggest she say "I'm not sure". But that's not the case...she is sure, and she's told Mom that. I guess it'd be like dad telling her to go tell her mom that she wanted to stay in NC, knowing full well her wishes are to come here. He wouldn't ever consider telling her to lie.

giggle-
There really haven't been "intensive" conversations. SD came to us with her wishes as very well-thought-out reasons why she wanted to come here. There really hasn't been much need for discussion. He did encourage her to be honest with her mom. He called Mom to discuss it, which didn't last long, but he tried. After considering all of the issues, we decided it would be in her interest to come here. Since mom wouldn't discuss it, he called the attorney and proceeded legally. SD was told that the adults would figure this out.

I also wanted to switch schools when i was 14-15. I wanted to go to a regular public school like "everyone else". my parents did not allow me. It took me some time to be greatful for that. we have no ways of knowing if mom will keep her, would she be resentful or greatful. and vice versa. i wish we always know what is the best...

i understand SD does want to live with dad and go to a different school...

keep us posted what judge says. when is the court?

Nicksmom, discussing Mom's reaction to SD's wishes with DH is intensive and intrusive, imo. It is setting both SD and Mom up.

It doesn't matter how long she has been talking about it, frankly it shouldn't have been encouraged until plans were final. Kids don't get to choose where they live and giving them the impression that they do certainly doesn't help the parenting relationship with the one they live with.

You are being quick to point out what Mom says or does, but can't see where DH's mistakes have caused some of them. Let the cards lie where they fall and try to make the situation as best for SD as it can be no matter what decision is made. That's all you can really do, you can't control what BM says or does but you can control your reactions and DH's.

I am sorry but if my child were to come to me with something they wanted to discuss I would discuss it with them in detail if need be... no matter what they need to talk about. I would let them know that the final decision lay between the adults but I wouldnt discourage them from having any further talk about it in any way shape or form. I think it is important that my kids have their own minds and can think for themselves and I would never tell them otherwise. And further if it was something important to them and they had sound reasoning (like it sounds like nicksmom's sd has) I would let her know that I will do whatever I can. Obviously, she doesnt need to know every in and out of what is being done but she has a right to discuss it and she has a right to have her wishes heard and considered.... especially at 15.

momof4, in essence I agree with you, but not in this case. The final decision doesn't lay with the adults and SD is fully aware of it. This situation has the ability to cause strife in the custodial home. Steps should be taken to prevent that from happening.

They've discussed with SD already and have gone as far as discussing Mom's reaction. This lays ground to set up the expectation that Dad is on SD's side. IMO, parents should present a united front. SD is in a happy, healthy home with a Mom that loves her. It is not going to kill Dad and SM to encourage SD to be happy where she is at until court decides.

yes, he can encourage that mom loves her and that he is sure that mom would miss her or that he is sure she would be just as happy living at home etc etc ...but I would not discourage her from talking about it nor would I present a united front on a subject I do not agree about... I would not speak negatively about the other parents opinions or decisions but I also would not say oh well you live with your mom you are happy there so on and so on... SD and Dad has every right to discuss her wanting to live with dad, Sd and dad have every right to live together ...infact SD has every right to talk to her dad or whoever about ANY issue that she feels necessary to talk to him about including ones that involve mom and perhaps even moms actions... Dad should encourage her to talk to mom as well...but not discourage her from talking to him especially if it is something that she feels strongly about...

And there wouldnt be any side if mom and dad could put their wishes aside and do for the child alone.

I do understand what you are saying but I disagree that there should be a united front on an issue that you strongly disagree with... there should be no bashing of the other parent, guilt tripping, or all of the other things that we know can happen... but I dont think it is a bad thing to tell your child if this is something you feel strongly about (especially after all of the reasons) I will do everything in my power to do so. It is not like this is a fly by night request ... this has been going on for over a year with valid reasons.

finedreams-
Although her school is a disgrace, and it would be best for her to change schools regardless, that's really not her motivation for wanting to be here. She wants to spend time with her dad and family here before she's an adult. She's has really missed having her dad see her do all of the things that she's great at. And she misses her brothers, sister and all of the extended family here. She wants to go to high school with her best friends, and be in musicals with them and on the same teams ast them, and graduate with them. The Status Conference (w/referee, no judges) is Wednesday.

giggle-
If I gave the impression that we discussed Mom's reactions with SD, it was in error. SD has often brought up her mom's replies to her when she's tried to discuss this with her, but we never have. But she's not stupid. Clearly, she understands that the reason we are going to "court" is because Mom was not open to discussion with Dad about SD's wishes to come here. Had she agreed, we wouldn't have any reason for a status conference...SD pretty much figured that out on her own. But I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to when you say "have gone so far as discussing Mom's reaction".

mom of 4-
I'm with you on this. However, I tread lightly where my "bonus kids" are concerned, because I'm not their mom or dad. But they both come to me ALOT with big/important issues/concerns because I'm a good listener, don't get overly emotional, and offer sound advice that leaves them feeling they can handle tough situations wisely. This is what they tell me! But mostly I listen, and as they talk, they generally talk themselves right into their own answers...and that's my goal. And should be all parent's goals, IMHO. I've done my best to raise critical thinkers and feel that they are handling young adulthood and adolescence pretty well. They are good problem solvers.

My hope is that Mom and Dad will be good problem solvers next Wednesday, and be able to figure this out without alot of input from the court system.

Does encouraging your child to lie to the other parent constitute parental alienation of some sort?

YES IT IS! but so is discussing the other parents reactions and trying to form an alliance with the child against the other parent.

IMO I think mothers have a very difficult time accepting that children may want to live with dad. If Dad can provide a stable home why shouldn't a 15 year old be allowed to move? I think custodial parents often demand that the other parent present a united front and get on the same side provided theirs is the side. This argument could just as easily be turned around to say- if a 15 year old with valid reasons continually expresses her desire to live with Dad- why can't Mom get on board and support that transition? It's not going to kill mom. The worst that can happen is that DD decides she doesn't like it and moves back- the best that can happen is that she loves it and builds a stronger relationship with Dad.

My nephew choose to live with his dad and it nearly killed my SIL. While I think his Dad leaves a lot to be desired (dad doesn't cook or help with homework or making plans for college) my nephew has had to grow up a lot this past year and has really matured in a way that he would not have had be been with mom. When he is at moms he is also more appreciative of her.

momof4, yep I get that. But, a year of this going on without going to court -- hmm. who wants to be the BM who has to deal with SD constantly talking about it???

Okay, I've layed out my piece, I can agree to disagree.

TGIF.

This is such a complicated problem. There are going to be hurt feelings all over the place.

I know that it hurts BM for her daughter to want to leave, but it's not like she didn't see it coming in plenty of time to mentally and emotionally prepare herself for it. You have stated that SD has said she has always wanted to move to your home for high school. BM should be preparing for this. My son's BD has been "conditioning" him to come live with him when he turns 12. In Texas (where we live), children can fill out an affidavit stating which parent they wish to live with, but it is ultimately up to the courts. Just because he "wants" to go live with dad doesn't mean the courts will think it's the best situation for him. Anyway, I have been steeling myself for this for a couple of years now and he's only 9. I still have 3 years before this is even possible. But I know that my DS wants to share time with his dad, whether I like it or not. BM needs to realize that she does not have a monopoly on SD's raising and sometimes she has to let go. Hard.....I know and it probably seems impossible.

Just being candid, I know how hard it is to NOT "coach" your children into what to say to the other parent. So many times I've wanted to tell my DS what to say to BD because it might keep the peace or make me right about something. But I've always stopped myself because I don't want my son to ever have a reason to be mad at me.

Sometimes DS will say "Dad lied about that" or "You don't have to cover, I know he lied". They know when their parents are lying and I think it's hillarious that a parent thinks she can tell a 15 y/o to lie. She's got to know that she's old enough and smart enough to see whats going on.

As far as discussing these things with the children, I think that you have to guage each children's maturity level individually. My DS is 9 and FSD is 13. DS is WAY more mature emotionally than FSD, even with 4 years separating. FSD refuses to stay home alone for any reason and freaks out. DS is ready to stay home alone (which he does not do yet). We've been teaching him about safety and what to do in certain situations. FSD won't even hear about it. She begs to not be left at home alone even though she is of age. She is just not mature. My BF made the mistake of telling her that the puppy (who was only 8 weeks old) has round worms, which is normal for every puppy. She flipped out, told her mom the dog had RING worm (definitely not the same thing) and wouldn't touch the dog for 2 weeks. We even took her to the vet and had the vet tell her the facts about round worm (that it's hard for people to get and that almost every puppy has it). She still wouldn't touch the dog. We told DS and he asked 1 question: "Can I get it?" We told him the truth and he went on with everything as normal. Hugging and playing with the dog. So we know what we can discuss with FSD and what we can't and the same for DS.

No matter how hard a family tries, the kids are always put in the middle of different ways of parenting. It's just so much more pronounced in divorced families.

I wish you all the best at your meeting and that this will all work out smoothly! (Sorry for the long post)

Nicksmom, you've stated Mom's reactions to SD's news and her reactions at other times as well. Whether or not SD volunteered the information or not, it is certainly inappropriate IMO. She should've been told from the get-go, courts will decide...listen to your mom...yadda yadda yadda. It doesn't matter that she brought it up. If she didn't think she was going to get a flat response she wouldn't be saying anything. It is a bit like conspiring, IMO.

elf & ashley-
Thanks for the replies and for sharing your own stories/thoughts.

giggle-
Although I've discussed Mom's reactions HERE (on this forum), we don't discuss them with daughter. She occasionally mentions her mom's statements (ie "You wouldn't leave me here alone in NC with no children, would you?!)", which is the only reason I know about their discussions. Our replies are along the lines of, "I'm sorry this is such a tough time". We (Dad & I) hope to get this resolved with your mom soon. Try not to worry too much about it."

And yes, TGIF! Only problem is we get to entertain Mom, stepdad, grandparents, etc for graduation dinner tonight...and the restaurant SS chose doesn't serve alcohol!!!

Nicksmom, get the little bottles of liquor. You can make a Jack and Coke...easy peasy.

Congrats to SS.

ooooh...very good idea. I have a new purse, big enough for a flask if I can't find the airplane-size bottles! You're a genius!!!

"But they both come to me ALOT with big/important issues/concerns because I'm a good listener, don't get overly emotional, and offer sound advice that leaves them feeling they can handle tough situations wisely."

Glad to hear this, Nicksmom!

I think sometimes being an SM, or FSM, or Dad's GF, you wind up as sort of a "safe and semi-neutral party who loves me". I'm happy for you that your SKs value your opinion and see you this way! Good for you.
In our house, A__ (FDH's 9yo son) talks to me about lots of things that he doesn't talk to his mom or dad about. He doesn't talk to his dad much about his feelings (I think it's because he's trying to be tough guy for his dad) and he sobs so hard he can't speak when he talks to his mom about problems (I think it's that he feels that he's letting her down). He knows that I talk to mom and dad about what we've talked about - he's fine with that and so are they!

So I'd just like to say that I think it's great that you're close enough with your SKs to talk about their lives and problems. I'm close enough with my own SM to have the same sort of sharing, and I really value that, so it's a great joy to me when I hear that other teen and adult SKs are lucky too!

I know, I know....LOL. I figured the situation was going to be a headache enough, I needed to impart some of my most cherished wisdom to you. No need for the thanks...

Have a good weekend!

ceph,
DITTO....on everything you said. Your FSS must be cut from exactly the same cloth as my SS! Thanks for the nice thoughts.

giggle-
You're great! Unfortunately, I couldn't find any little bottles-o-booze (note to self for next flight!), and the lid to the long lost flask went missing.

BUT......I survived...barely, but I did. I'm home now...going to have a nice BIG gin & tonic!!!