theraglady47, it wouldn't matter which one, they are both poisonous. Last year I had a few near my fence in the front yard. People couldn't keep their hands off of them. One evening a woman was walking her 18 month old son around the block, stopped and let him pick one of the flowers and left. I saw it happen and sent my husband out to find them. The woman had no idea of course that it was poisonous. She thanked us for letting her know, but I was just afraid the little boy might try to eat it, or put his hands in his mouth after handling it. That cured me of putting them within arms reach. I have morning glories on the fence, but that's a whole different "high" story. Georgia

Well I moved my brug. I think I will just fence the area the datura are in. I was worried about people picking them knowing thier nature. But lets face it, it is hard to resist such beautiful flowers, they are why we are all brugmaniacs.

I am just glad there was no one in the back yard today when I found new buds coming on my Versicolor peach. I was talking to it, telling it how proud I was. I am glad for those 6'fences, and sometimes glad I am only 5' tall.

Hello all .. being a foster parent for difficult teens .. and having worked with Young Offenders most of my adult life .. I have to say .. if a kid wants to get high .. they will find a way. It wouldnt matter if it was the gasoline in your gas tank .. cleaners in your cupboard, the canned whip cream in your fridge .. the glue in your craft room or the flowers in your garden. I was recently asked to take a young man into my home who was "shooting up" bleach and other household cleaners. Thats gotta hurt!! I have only recently started to grow brugs .. and I have advised my neighbours that they are poisionous as they have small children .. I plan on posting a sign that says this .. you can lock up your burgs but if someone whats to get at it .. they will.

I dont understand the media .. why make a whooptela about it .. yes it is dangerous .. yes responsible people have it in their gardens .. and of course in warmer zones it is a wild plant. But the media gives too much information .. and to post a photo .. geeze.

I wont be moving my brugs .. but I will make those around me aware that they are poisionous.

I am also greatful that those kids were at least smart enough to awaken the parent .. and advise them of the other youth who had returned home. One has to wonder about the big guy upstairs and what paths these young people are to follow after such an experience.

Laura

About half the plants we grow as ornamentals are poisonious, many of them far more so than datura or brugmansia. Even the leaves of tomato plants are toxic!

The problem ISN'T the plants, it's the mind-set of the media, the government, the school systems, etc. For far too long we've all taken the attitude that to educate young people about drugs will only encourage them to experiement with drug use. The truth is, education is the ONLY thing that will win the war on drugs. I'm certain that if those kids had really understood the likely consequences they wouldn't now be in this situation.

Before you dig up the plants, why not try this?
Click on the link to the news story in the first response in this thread. According to the story the kids were near death, and "They were foaming at the mouth, having twitches,(and) convulsions."
Print the story, enclose in plastic, and nail it to a post (like a sign) next to your plant(s).
When I was very young a very long time ago, I was dumb, and I tried a lot of drugs. Something like that story would have easily scared me away from trying it. These kids are out for something they think will make them feel good, not convulsions and foaming at the mouth.
Just a thought.

Good Point, maybe I'll put one next to my backyard habitat sign. Georgia

I guess I'm horrible, if it were me I'd want the kids charged with trespassing if they got my plants and did that. That they got violently ill is their own fault. I worry sometimes about the potheads across the road from my home deciding they want to get high off my daturas or brugmansias. It won't stop me from growing them, as was said if someone wants to get high they will find a way. Its just a pity that brugs and datura get such a bad reputation.

I agree with qbirdy, fully.

I do not believe one can get high on Brugmansia...just very sick or dead.

Unfortunately, if you post the story about the dangers of the Datura, you will be as bad as the media because then some idiot, that never knew about Datura will get the idea and try it. Probably die and then the family will sue you for giving him the idea by your well meaning attempt to prevent a tragedy.

The fact is, society cannot protect all the stupid people from themselves.

In reality, it is Darwinism at its finest. Those too stupid to live, don't.

Wildcat

OMG has anyone seen the vaults of erowid? I'm not even gonna paste the link on here. They tell people exactly how to use datura and other plants and also, individuals have a type of forum to relate thier "experiences". This site says it doesn't promote drug use and only gives information. The kids sure could get ideas from this though!

Jeeze sinner, you had to cite that place and inform everyone that it tell yous how to use plants for drugs.

Now every stupid kid that reads this will go to that site.

X

I agree with all of you that say you're not moving the brugs. If a plant, tree or shrub is on your property and someone specifically enters onto that property without asking, it's trespassing, plain and simple. Why change or uproot (no pun intended) your belongings, like brugs, because someone wants to cause harm to themselves and tresspass on YOUR property? That's like saying if someone walked up to your porch, picked up a potted plant and dropped it on their foot, we should all feel bad for them. No way. I'm not trying to be hard-hearted here, but c'mon! . . . and, yes, if anyone wanted to eat bulbs and most other plants, they would get very sick, too.

Looks like you just got spanked, sinner_gurl.

I don't believe sinner-gurl is responsible for the content of the WWW. I did a search for scopolamine and brugmansia after I read the post here Interesting Story: Brugmansia in the News and several links for erowid came up. I really doubt there are many teenagers (probably none at all) posting here................ oh and personally I'd rather have potheads for neighbors than drunks, crackheads or wifebeaters.

...and your yard's not as secure as you likely think. I have a corner lot with an alley alongside. For the past 3-4 years marijuana plants sprout in the back part along a lilac hedge. I figured birds the first year, but now am guessing some kid emptied the seeds from his 'baggie' in my lilacs...........oh, and yes I do 'weed' them out as they sprout.
8-)

In the insurance/litigation world there is a term called an attractive nuisance. I know this because I was sued many years back by the mother of a child who climbed an 8 foot privacy fence, fell and split his head on the side of my pool. She won.

Poisonous plants can be considered an attractive nuisance as well I believe.

X

Here is a link that might be useful: attractive nuisance doctrine

I believe Darwin referred to this as "Thinning the herd"...

Stupid people should not be allowed to grow up and breed. All the laws we have now to "protect" our kids rather than the parents taking an involved and informed role in thier children's development is spawning a race of idiots.

"Stupid people should not be allowed to grow up and breed".

Amen, brother!

As far as the Erowid site---isn't it better for people who are going to use drugs have accurate info about the possible consequences? Both from a safety point of view, and from the point of making an 'informed decision'? Not too long ago I chose to have a form of elective surgery that has improved my life dramatically---but which COULD have killed me on the table. To some people, my decision would be seen as the height of folly---and for some people, using any sort of recreational drugs would be viewed the same way.

Let's face it, some people are going to use drugs. Isn't it better that they do so with a complete understanding of the consequences? I know that as a kid, there were a LOT of things that I chose NOT to do, only because I knew what the consequences would certainly be. Not telling kids the WHOLE truth about drugs and drug use is just setting them up to fall.

This might sound strange but I grow Datura and Brugsmansia because of these very properties. I of course would never dream of ingesting them. I grow them because I have a deep respect for their history and ritualistic use throughout the world.

Both Datura and Brugsmansia are members of the Solanaceae family, others members include deadly nightshade and tomatoes. Datura and Brugsmansia have a long history of ritualistic use that spans the globe. Many species of Datura are found throughout the world and were spread by humans who used them as intoxicants, usually during religious ceremonies.

As for people using these plants to get high, well they will only do it once. These plants contain tropane, scopolamine and other alkaloids and do not produce an enjoyable high buy many means. The high is more a state of delirium and produces very unpleasant side effects.

I find the process of scheduling these and other potentially dangerous plants ridiculous. Of course some kids could come along and ingest them trying to get high but whats stopping them from doing this with any other products, household or not. These plants have or had valid medical uses throughout history. Women often used Datura to ease the pain during childbirth. Brugsmanisa was also used in ancient Mexico to drug the wives or slaves of a dead chief so that they could accompany him to the afterlife, not a very pleasant thought. If we just thought for a minute about how many medical drugs are derived from toxic plants we would praise them instead of thinking of them as a nuisance. Ever heard of Digitalis, how many thousands of people have this plant in their gardens?

Internet sites like Erowid are needed and should not be thought of as criminal. People have been using drugs since ancient times. You don't think twice about popping an aspirin if you have a headache, a drug is a drug itÂs all in the dosage. I can tell you that if I were to have children I would rather have them read through that site and educate themselves than just go out and try drugs. Erowid is completely unbiased and presents both the good and the bad. Believe me if you read about either Datura or Brugsmansia use it will scare the pants off of you. Anyone who actually has the intelligence to educate him or herself before trying to ingest these plants would certainly have second thoughts. The real problem is that people don't educate themselves. Sinnergirl you did nothing wrong. Maybe the members of this site should take a look at the page you mentioned, all of you will learn something and not necessarily just about drug use. TNGreenthumb hit the nail on the head stupid people do stupid things.

Now I hope I did not upset anyone that was not my intention. I just think that people need to take the time to educate themselves more often. These plants have a wonderful, scary, and mysterious history. They are beautiful but they deserve or respect. They are more than just the pretty flowers we love them for.

This is sad. I would have thought kids would know better by now, after all the deaths and near misses over the years, but kids are kids and think it can never happen to them.

I'm going to put a big sign in my yard that says "Angel Trumpets WILL kill you! If you steal flowers or leaves from my plants, and they don't kill you, I may, so STAY AWAY!"

"Give her your heart, your lungs , your eyes , and your mind ... See what she gives you back , if anything at all. To give your soul , also means death , but to learn to share it with one such as this ... is a love affair that will ...alter... or end your life." ... just a bit of my ramblings , if Carlos castanenda described anything acurately about 'Yerba del Diablo' it is that , if she dosent kill you, she still owns you ... you dont get around this ... you just learn to live with it ... not in the sense that you will do everything your mind percieves the plant tells you to , but that in looking at it these plants ... you realize their power is greater than your own, it always will be , they may share it , but if they dont want to , they wont, and if angered, they will take all that you have ... your Life ... breath ... sight ... everything ... Unless you are prepared to be subordinant to a plant , just grow them, admire their beauty , and fragrance, and let that be ... The power they offer is not power that you can control ... if you think you can , you are diluted . but if you are willing to accept her ... She will show you things that most people only experience after the life has left their bones ... for a time ... This is true with all the tropanes , look the world over , they are treated very similarly , be them Datura , brugmansia , henbane , mandrake , atropa belladonna , they are used to understand death, but can just as easily bring the same experience that you simply wish to observe

Think this over carefuly ... to know death , can help you understand life , but to live death , you have no life at all ...
Treat these plants with respect ...

--- Adam

Wow - I am really amazed to find such open mindedness on these Gardenweb - and a Castaneda reference, too?!? I have to say that I have lots of medicinal herbs, many poisonous and that I love to lore and the dark romanticism of growing mandrake, hemlock, brugmansia, pennyroyal, cohosh or valerian. I have to say that I've gone to the Erowid site many times and I'm glad that such a resource is out there. It's sad to think of all the knowledge that has already been wiped out already due to fear and prejudices in such a "modern" world.

Athaena --- Yes this is a sad state of affairs, much has indeed been forgotten about aboriginal cultures , the world over, but if you look hard enough, or in some out of the way places , you will find that alot of the old knowledge is still alive , albeit in most cases mixed with what ever ideology and cosmology was missioned to the group by the people who supressed them , san pedro is a excellent example of this , Trichorcereus Pachanoi ' San Pedro ' was given that name as a reference to St peter, because like peter the cactus was thought to hold the ' keys to heaven ' the rituals are very similar to what has been practiced in the andes since time immemorial , but have had catholic ideology overlayed as a way to protect the rites and rituals that are much older than the faith they adopted to protect them , if these measures had not been taken, the likelyhood of the pratice and rituals regarding this would not be remembered at all ... as for the daturas ... they have been branded both Angels / Devils trumpets , and Datura Inoxia specificly ' Devils weed' the rituals that center around these plants, have pretty much remained unchanged by the judeochristian cosmology, for the most part, these are regarded as ' devils herbs ' and left at that , and not consulted, but in far off places .. or in places not so far, but almost always hidden , due to fear of persecution , they still continue ... Same is true of Atropa belladonna among wiccans and druids ... though you will find few if any refrences to this practice in modern day , as that group as well as resigned them to ' ritual herbs ' which in many cases is a wise choice , unless someone is once again, fully prepared to accept the responsibilty and change in direction of ones life that these plants induce ... the nice thing about datura in regards to ritual practice , is unlike some things such as the mescal buttons , the daturas will be almost impossible to wipe out , they have been here from time immemoral, and they will continue to be , if creator forbid legislation is issued that prevents us from growing them in our gardens where we need not look farther than our yards to witness their beauty and consult them, they will still be weeds in much of the united states , sadly not for me , as in the pacific northwest they are not native , but they will be there ... in other places ...on topic of erowid , it is a very nessecery thing to have sources like that on this subject, not only does that organization document the relationship of humans with plants, it also has a fairly large section regarding many spiritual practices , and other such things , the issue most people have with this I think, is the knowledge on how to do things, is obvious, but then, so are the many risks related to these ... if you do happen to read the ' Experience ' vaults you will find few people who would be willing to embrace the tropane nightshades again , and the few that might consider this , are looking for more than a simple ' trip ' ... but then , as it has been stated so many times though ... a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing, but when that is matched with a person, having little or no respect, it goes behond dangerous ... for the most part teens are dis respectful , this is not 100% the case, but the youth culture in america is yet another counter culture ,that thrives on flaunting society and what they deem inappropriate. the news article that spawned this thread, having gone there and played the video , you will see that they show a picture of the brugmansia with video distortion effects similar to what was used back in the time of 'real ' rock and roll , to distort film and produce ' mock psychedelic 'effects , so basically that are saying you consume these plants yes you get sick you can die, but in providing a image as to how they think they produce ' hallucinations ' which on that film appeared more similar to things such as the indole alkaloids , they are giving people who may be seeking such visual distortions , reason to consider this , the tropane alkaloids , especially brugmansia , and very close to same with the daturas, that contain large amounts of Scopolamine , do not produce that form of hallucinations , they essentially produce waking dreams , your vision will be distorted this is true, but more in the same manner of someone who looked at a bright source of light after coming out of a dark room, this is due to pupil dilation , not effects on vision , acetecholine blocks dreaming in REM sleep , and when that transmitter is blocked while awake, it produces a state very similar to a dream, which is why people will tell you ' it was so real , it wasnt like I was hallucinating , ect' because they dont know it , they are dreaming with their eyes open ... This can be quite dangerous for people unfamiliar with that state of mind, or having no reason for inducing it , and no idea what to do with it when it arises , toloacheros ... they set physical boundaries in a safe environment , that they will not under any circumstances allow their body to cross, in many cases this is a circle of several meters wide, when you go into this experience knowing full well what is going to happen, you can control your body , but perhaps not your minds reaction , it is possible to tell your body not to move, to lay down, not to get up under any circumstances, in which case the experience unfolds while your body is in a state of self induced paralysis , not that it is incapable of moving, but that your brain has registered that it is NOT to do such , until a specified event 'for many it involves tests which to themselves deem them lucid, and require some problem solving and reasoning , mathematics ect ' the mind is unbound, regardless if the body is laying in the mud for half a day , it may experience sensations of bodily flight ect , speaking to others who are across the globe , and many other such things, but if preventative measures are not made before one ventures into this realm , to keep the body in a location that is for the most part a safe environment , and resigning it not to leave this , very bad things can happen, some examples , pertaining to urban or suburban areas where these plants may grow, and where the likelihood of disrespectful teens ingesting them may be higher ... roads are a serious danger , cars just as serious , glass is serious , walls are serious , anything which can cause one to trip and stumble and injure themselves is dangerous , and then there is always the risk of you getting up and talking to your local statue or fire hydrant thinking it is something animate , and someone having no idea what is going on, and thinking that you are indeed psychotic , calling for you to be taken away ... this can happen ... but if in a isolated environment, where no one will go , and you will not leave ... this is not likely ... a serious risk with these plants, regardless of mindset and ritual preparation , will always be the effect on the lungs ... when the intoxication comes full force, the lungs still function , but the reasoning to use them in the same manner and frequency you do normally , does not always arise , the lungs do work , but the brain may not utilize them as frequently as it would otherwise, in which case you can go long periods without taking a breath , and not think much of this , this is a period that can last the whole experience , but typically lasts a couple hours , in which case , if you are lucid enough to split your mind into two , resign one part to keeping your vitals functioning ,and the other to experience that which the plant has, you may be able to get around this ... this does totally depend on dosage however, as when a exceptionally large amount of tropanes are consumed ( as you will find described on erowid , or that make their way onto your local news ) then such concepts as ' alright I will just continue to breath ' dont always occur , but then , these people that consume such large amounts generally have not the slightest idea their toxicity , and neither that what may be safe and relatively harmless oneday, may prove to be much more potent the next , many other factors aside , the phase of the moon plays a large role in the alkaloid content of these plants , as with many that have alkaloids, the concentrations are at their lowest ( but still very toxic ) at the new moon , and their highest at the full moon ( this is often why european pagans celebrated on the full moon, they also gathered herbs at this time, such is probably true in many parts of the world, but I have not found it documented , the full moon however does mark a important event for most cultures ) the lunar phase only gives a ' relative ' idea of the potency, as each plant is different, each part of the plant is different , and depending on growing conditions, if they are ideal, or less than ideal , this can vary widely , a serious problem that some of the people on erowid have put forth , the folks who post experiences , not the folks who maintain the site , is that when they post dosages ( which in many cases would be a good thing ) they are posting what they themselves consumed at a given date , under given circumstances, with the daturas / brugmansias / atropa / henbane ect , this is almost totally irrelevant to anyone who may read it and consider trying to replicate the experience , as they would likely think to themselves if the person survived to post their experience, than the dosage they described is not lethal ... a dangerous misunderstanding ... the tropanes are among most people ,typically consumed orally , in which case they make it down into your digestive track , and stay there, as these alkaloids are anti emetics of the first other ( scopolamine is used in the Trans Scop , seasick patches , those little band aid like medications that are placed behind the ear , scopolamine is also the most potent of the tropanes , and it is not unheard of for people to abuse the motion sickness patches either , once again , kids ) anyways back to the anti emetic ... it suppresses the gag reflex, so if you consume a excessive amount of these plants through your stomach and do not vomit it up before the effects take hold, the likelihood of you vomiting up at all are not likely , in which case if you consumed a fatal amount , and you do NOT get your stomach pumped and activated charcoal given , you may very well die ... the cause of death resulting from these plants are typically Cardiac / Respiratory failure , or both ... in any case these plants are dangerous ... but not without merit... erowid as I said , lists ' from what I have seen ' almost all the reports as having been taken ' orally ' you dont typically find references to the other methods of ingestion , of which there are several , when you do hear of someone ' smoking ' the foliage , they are once again attempting to get intoxicated, but the smoking of datura or such is generally not used for intoxication, it is however a very powerful treatment for asthma or other breathing conditions where your air pipe may be constricted, even more so if you have a very stuffed up nose due to mucus , as it also dries the mucus out, as well as dilating the airway , there are various non prescription preparations available the world over for treatment of asthma , many are combinations of Atropa belladonna and one or another species of datura , another generally unknown medical use of these plants, is the topical treatment of pain ... In Mexico , datura inoxia was used extensively during surgery , when applied topically to the skin , the effects are not subject to the digestive tract , and the problems that come with that , and if one would think that it would be slower or less powerful absorbed through the skin, this is not the case at all, the onset is very quick , and very very powerful , dangerously so in some cases, but the medical benefit of this is a very simple one ... it can be applied to the part of the body where the pain is located , and the effects remain very powerful in that location ... a issue with the topical method , ' salves , balms ... the infamous ' Flying Ointment ' " typically contains a battery of other substances as well , in Europe , in the Americas, it is typically just a preparation of some solid fat, lard ect , and tropane nightshades, various species of Nicotiania are sometimes added , as they also will relieve pain when applied topically, Nicotiania Rustica is a very common admixture for the topical preparations of Daturas . there are however some fairly serious risks involved with this method ... when they are prepared not only does the potency of the datura that was used, when it was harvested ect, need to be taken in to acount , so does the amount of the solid fat that it is being absorbed into , as the more herb matter, the less lard ect, produces a mower powerful salve , if this is not taken into acount, you have even less idea of the experiences that it may induce , for pain , the salve is typicaly applied to a local region ... however ... the uses of such a salve in shamanisim are wide spread , and the points of appication are many , and focus around parts of the body where there are large veins and blood vessels close to the skin, wrists , intimate areas, neck , under eyes , ect and in somecases the entire body is covered with this salve, not only does this provide a extreamly powerful intoxication , it is once again possible to become so delerious , that should you go within the realm of serious danger from absorption of these things, the concept of ' washing your body ' can be foreign , in which case the absorbtion just continues .. untill it is all absorbed , or you expire , which ever comes first , the way it is applied also has a great deal to do with this , if it is applied as a very thin layer to skin , that layer is what absorbs, but if you slather yourself with it , and there is a thick layer .. that all absorbs eventually , if you are wearing clothing over this , it gets rubed in as you move ... so this as with any other way of consulting the plants is dangerous ... I am sure some of the folks here on forum are wondering why I bothered to babble all this , once again I hope the message will be read as a attempt to clairfy the dangers regarding these plants in a fashion more than simply stating they are ' deadly' which they are , if treated with disrespect , as it was stated above by MikeDhams , its all in the dosage, the difference between a medicine and a poison is the dosage , and the definition of ' medicine ' is a cultural one , for most of us in the western world that term means something which alieviates a physical ' sometimes psychological , in the case of psychatric medications ' illness of the indivual who takes the medication , in other cultures these two are typicaly valid , but the term medicine , also can be to mean that which heals the spirit , or effects it in a way that alows healing , or alows the individual to more fluidly adress the issues of their own mind ... and no , trying a lethal toxic botanicaly to simply see ' what happens , will I get high? ' is not medicine , it is basicly playing russian roullete with bullets containing alkaloids ... hope everyone here did not find this post too long , or other issues with it , I in no way encourage consumption of anything , be it datura , or Tums antiacid , it is for the individual to decide what they will do with their Mind /body / spirit , but without knowledge of the consequences , these decisions can be very dangerous ...

"If any of you have more questions regarding what I know of these, and what I have been told by others who share similar interests let me know for the time I will leave this where it stands "--- Adam

Does'nt putting a story like this out in the papers, just make other teens aware that this certain plant can make them high? They might just say, 'hey I'll use a lower dose than the hospitalized kids'.
If they can't find drugs or something, is'nt this just like making them aware of other options?

There are many other things that will produce generaly more pleasent effects , and are more readily avalible , and in what I stated,dosage for someone is totally irrelevant for someone else , if they realize this ,then their reasoning of ' I will just take less than they did ' also should be realized to be irrelevant , but if they fully understand what they are geting into, and still walk that road, they are responsible for their actions , as for things that are commonly avalible , many over the counter medications , many things that are avalible in classrooms ( rubber cement liquid paper ect ) produce intoxications , that would probobly be a great deal more pleasent than these plants , but then, if they are really looking for a experience of ' waking dream ' there is something called sleep deprivation , that is practiced by many seeking similar things to this plants, also at times acompanied by rituals involving these plants, the sad truth is , no matter how much you inform people, the truely ignorant / disrespectful are not going to listen to a word of it , it is possible to have a relationship with these plants that goes behond what you most are fermilar with , but that is a different thing than ' geting high ' as for some other things kids have tried, spice rack herbs , gasoline , you name it , fortuantely there are alot of kids who would consider this , read the true nature of what could happen, and honestly realize they would rather not , but then, there are some as I said that could careless ... there really is no way around this , if there is anyway for a kid to get intoxicated , one of them sometime is going to try it , also , another thing I have heard , is trying to inahle exaust from a automobile in a closed space , and yep , this is also a common suicide method. I honestly do not know why the media bothers to publish these things, if they are focusing on a plant like this, they should do sections on other things like gasoline, inhalants , spices , and such things . They are providing a narrow and biased view of this , and perhaps it makes a good story, because these plants are indeed mysterious and facinating, and obvious of all , beautiful , its not so glamorous and mysterious for them to describe kids who drink gasoline ... but I assure you this is more common than consumption of tropane nightshades - Adam

JUST SAW OUR FOX21 NEWS REPORT ABOUT SOME TEENS IN SC doing the tea well the new told how to make the tea and I think our news should be a little more responaible, it's not the plants fault, but azelas and tomato and poinsetta are not good for you either but whats wrong when our teens go looking for someting to get high on somewhere we as parents have to say something is wrong, and speak up to our childern about drugs and trying things they no nothing about that can hurt them, we should join toghter and contact the news media and let them know all plants should not be eaten or tea made from them,

Public school systems make poor substitutes for parental guidance ... This is primarily what is happening , we expect the schools to teach our kids how to do everything , its not their job , primarily the role schools ' should ' play is that of instruction in areas relating to academics ect , other common sense eduction is not bad , but that is really the parents role. But if the parental role is not activly played untill the age where these things occur ' early mid teens ' one would be lucky for kids to listen at all , about any topic ... and for most part, a teen's core social group means more to them than their real family does , atleast in american culture. they may not openly say it , but they will take the advice of peers a bit more readily than that of their parents ... my two cents, sad that it is like this but so often it is the case
-- Adam

The media does more harm than good. They are more interested in ratings than anything else. Have you ever noticed that the news is predominantly negative, does anything good happen anymore? Not in their eyes. They would rather tell kids how to mix baking soda and cocaine together to make crack than to report on something positive. The media is just plain garbage if you ask me.

You hit the nail on the head mike ...

--- Adam

A few years back there was a big TV news story in my city, (with teasers every half hour preceding it), about a "new" plant in the mint family that kids could buy on-line that would get them high. They basically directed people to the sites where it could be obtained. They spoke about how strong the effects were accompanied by the strange hallucinatory camera FX noted by another poster, (they didn't note that the high lasted barely 15-20 minutes and that it could not be replicated the same evening). Thankfully they massacred the latin name so badly that it was difficult to tell what they were talking about. My first thought was, "Oh great, now the government is going to outlaw this plant too!"

I too, grow many legal medicinal plants, not because I plan to consume them, but because of their ethno-botanical history and their beauty. Western society is so quick to dismiss the knowledge of other or past cultures out of fear or prejudice. These are the same people that gave us our plant foods like potatoes, maize, peppers, etc. They were much more in tune with nature than most of us will ever be and they believed that the creator gave them the "power plants" to help them learn and become closer to him/her.

And, to those that don't think that kids frequent this site, I can assure you that you are wrong. There are any number of lurkers out there, (I would suspect especially in this forum), and any google search of a "desirable" plant will include links to this site if a posting has ever occured. That's how I originally found the Garden Web! I have had a number of off-line email requests for plant species that could be used for getting high after posting questions or responses on the Garden Web that had absolutely nothing to do with that aspect of their existence, (especially the mint family species that I mentioned earlier). I generally ignore these requests unless I can tell that the person is a regular contributor.

But, I agree that knowledge is usually a good thing if it's not sensationalized as the media has a habit of doing. Kids have to be given the truth. I can remember getting a little drug pamphlet in a 70's health class, (oops, giving away my age), that described the effects of various illegal substances that were commonly available at the time. For marijuana, it made outrageous claims, (which I believed), about how it would turn the user into a drooling, murderous, ill smelling, rapist. When I finally tried it a few years later and realized that it wasn't the weed from Hell as described, I began wondering if maybe the people that had put out the pamphlet were also lying about the effects of heroin or other drugs too. How was that being a service to the kids? Luckily, no such hard drugs were available to me at this critical juncture in my life or, who knows?

Tell the kids the truth! There's enough negative effects to accurately relate without having to trump up the charges. Kids aren't as dumb as we make them out to be...

Sorry for the rambling...

Mike

They likely are going to end up schedualing the mint you speak of , I believe they are already working on it . They are starting to schedual the ingredients for Ayhusaca , not just the alkaloids contained there in , the botanicals themselves . The probablity of them schedualing at a federal level Datura / Brugmansia , is not likely, atleast now , they are popular garden plants , and would be almost impossible to wipe out ' especialy the ' true ' daturas '. I dont personaly understand the drugwar , as it is now , there are things like heroin and cocaine , that are processed from botanicals , that cause serious harm in society , Coca chewing in south america is a non issue for the most part , here that would be a felony as well , on the note of Papaver Somniferum , Opium in its rawstate is still a serious health risk , but then , they realized that a very long time ago . so some things really do need to be controled , perhaps not by slaping people with felony posession , but targeting the roots of where this stuff comes from , one serious backlash from outlawing some of the more popular plant based intoxicants in this day in age, is that it creates a blackmarket , that profits greatly from this , and that money goes to other ... even more dangerous ... causes . another note , they will not let you medicate yourself with plants , as a individual , but they poison entire populations in some areas , by adding Sodium Fluoride to the water supply , supposedly to ' Improve dental health of children before puberty ' this form of mass medication is far more dangerous than any herb I am aware of , for a long time they have been telling us Sodium Fluoride is ' safe ' , thats what health officals say, try and find a respected toxicologist who agrees, I doubt you will. ( a tid bit on sodium fluoride mass medication , Sodium fluoride is a byproduct of Aluminum processing , and phosphate fertilizer production , it is considered a TOXIC WASTE , and is not legal to put into rivers, streams, lakes, or the ocean . alot of this is produced as a by product . So they cant dump it into rivers lakes streams ocean ... what are they going to do with this ... well how about selling it to municipal water utilities to add to their water and supposedly ' improve dental health ' the effect of fluoride is topical , it does no good, and only harm when it is drank , the only benifit gained for dental health with fluoridated water results from what absorbs into the teeth before it is swallowed, almost nothing at all . so , take toxic waste , turn it around and sell for a large profit , you not only eliminated the issue of disposal, you made yourself a nice profit ... amazing how this works ... also , the fluoride you recive in toothpaste ect, does not come from the same source as what is used to fluoridate water , toothpaste is made with pharmecudical grade Fluoride , what they put into municipal water is not, it is the waste from aluminum / fertilizer industry . Sodium Fluoride , also happens to be one of the most effective rodent poisons known , and has a near equvilant toxicity as does arsinic ... another thing , fluoride is highly reactive, it will react with almost anything , it has been found that when fluoridated water is heated to boiling in aluminum cookware ( like some people use, to make soups ect ) the aluminum content in the water increases several hundred times , because the fluoride is reacting with the aluminum , it also does this same thing with mercury / lead ect, and most other things.

I hope I dident get too offtopic , just trying to give a example to compare , so it may be seen how ludicris a war on plants (drugs) , is when we are given in our water , a poison like sodium fluoride ( it also has mental effects , reduces awareness, resistance , research how sodium fluoride was used during WWII ... you will be quite disturbed by this ... I will forever remain thankful I live off of well water .. now atleast ... I was raised in a community that fluoridated their water

-Adam

vrey interesting discusion. i my self have tried brugmansia and datura. this was years ago when i was about 20. it was interesting, i had no adverse expiriences. it was not all that great and i moved on. my relitively positive expirence is likely due to my being very carefull about doseage. i new from extensive reading that this was a poisonous and potentialy dangerous plant. i do not recomend it to anyone but do not regret my expirience at all. kids will do stupid things. it is called being immature. some kids here recently got hit by a train. [duh] when i was 5 i stuffed seed corn up my nose and had to have a doctor remove it. i am sure every adult can remember some embarasing moment from there youth when they should have known better. regulating the world will not make it safer. just dumber.

"Unless you are prepared to be subordinant to a plant , just grow them, admire their beauty , and fragrance, and let that be ... The power they offer is not power that you can control ... if you think you can , you are diluted."

Perhaps the typo in the last word of this quote tells the whole story. ;)

An email friend of mine with whom I've really not discussed gardening much (so I don't really know if she even does any) sends me all sorts of cute emails, and sent me one yesterday with a little cartoon of a tiny tree with one ornament tipping it over (like something on "Peanuts"), saying her tree was "trimmed." I told her that was more than I had done, but that I had brought my two big potted brugmansias into the living room (where they'll get a fair amount of winter sun) this winter, rather than the basement, like the past two winters, where they STILL tried to grow, with very little light or water, and that my mom had suggested I put lights on THEM (they're all bare, since I took cuttings back to every major "Y" before I brought them in -- both to make them smaller to bring in, and to be able to start more to give to friends in plant swaps next year).

She wasn't sure what I was talking about, so I told her they were also called Angel Trumpets and included a picture of both an entire plant in bloom and also a closeup of one of my best blooms this year... THEN she came back telling me that plant is ILLEGAL and I'd better be CAREFUL! I told her I was aware of the potential hallucinogenic properties of both Brugmansia and Datura (although mostly from smoking it, I thought -- never tried any of it, nor plans to, but I, too, have the Erowid link, which I sent her).

She responded that she asked a local Sheriff's deputy about the plants and was told they ARE, indeed, illegal in Florida and not to be caught growing or possessing them, and also linked me to a post at Dave's Garden saying Brugmansia and Datura "imports" are illegal (I have no idea how one would discern if the plants we're growing came from an "import" or not).

I responded back that one of my best and most well-informed GW buddies grew Brugmansia at her Miami home and had a degree in biology, and I was pretty sure she wouldn't grow it if it were, indeed, illegal (she passed on earlier this year, so there's no way I could ask her now), and also that GW has an entire forum (this one) dedicated to Brugmansias, and included the link to this forum, telling her I didn't think GW would have a forum for a plant that's illegal in the U.S.

Just to make sure such laws hadn't passed while I wasn't paying attention, I came here and did a search on the word "illegal," and this and one other thread popped up -- the other being about making illegal copies of patented plants.

Of course, SAYING there's no way the government CAN or WILL outlaw Brugmansia and Datura is pure NONSENSE... Marijuana, although it has no beautiful flowers, has many uses as both a fiber and a medicine and grows wild in every state in the Union -- even after more than 50 years of eradication efforts -- yet it's illegal and continues to be so. If the wrong folks raise the right stink, it could very well happen.

I also agree that all the media -- ESPECIALLY local newscasts do -- is SENSATIONALIZE anything they can for ratings. My local station (WSPA TV 7) is the worst I've seen anywhere at this -- so bad I refuse to watch their news except for something I really HAVE to know -- like the occasional serious weather forecast.

But I also agree outlawing these plants -- like other things -- IS NOT the answer. There are efforts in some areas to outlaw canned, compressed air -- yes AIR, because some kids found out that if you put the tube in your mouth and let it blow you can get a "high." All it's doing is pushing the oxygen out of their lungs temporarily, so the "high" is caused from a lack of oxygen to the brain, but several kids -- including the son of a cop, while he was ON DUTY on third shift -- have died from doing this with too much propellant in the can (the propellant is what displaces the oxygen in your lungs). It ended up pushing too much air out of their lungs and some even died with their eyes open, as did the cop's son, and mother found him that way the next morning, the tube from the can of compressed air still in his mouth.

You don't DRINK gasoline to get "high," by the way, you SNIFF it... A friend of my brother's was arrested when he was in high school after a cop found him passed out with his nose in the gas tank of his OWN motorcycle. There are SO MANY WAYS and SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS that can create "a high" of some sort through inhaling them, smoking them (morning glory seeds supposedly have hallucinogenic effects if smoked)... Ridiculous things are done in some areas to try to stop inhalant abuses: Lowe's, for instance, started requiring people to be 18 to buy glues and paint thinners that could be abused, like that will really stop anyone.

As said above, if a kid is dumb enough to try something, they will. Information is power, and trying to protect the kids from the information often just leaves them knowing only enough to harm themselves without enough information to realize how severe that harm could be, or why they shouldn't.

Protecting people by keeping them ignorant seems kind of like trying to keep them from freezing by taking away their clothes.

Jeff

Informed people READ carefully. That means ALL of the words, not just some. I checked out some links which Jeff mentioned.

In Dave's Garden site, the comment was made by one person who "heard that" it was illegal. That was the only comment made there. Second hand information is usually useless, except perhaps to steer one towards finding out the truth.

US STATE LAW Louisiana
Effective Aug 8, 2005 (signed into law Jun 28, 2005) Louisiana Act No 159 makes 40 plants illegal, including Brugmansia arborea, WHEN INTENDED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. The law specifically EXCLUDES the "possession, planting, cultivation, growing, or harvesting" of these plants if used "strictly for aesthetic, landscaping, or decorative purposes." (Text of HLS_05RS-52 and Update June 2005). Whew, what a relief!

The Entheogen Law Reporter Issue No. 6, Spring 1995, pp. 48-58 states that Brugmansia Candida is outlawed in Maitland, Florida. The book went out of production in 1999.

...just some more useless information.

Enjoy your plants. In know that I do.

OK now that I'm freaked out lol, I live in LA and although I only grow these for decorative purposes, who's to say what exact purpose anyone is growing anything? I think this law is kind of confusing. So I guess you would have to have some sort of packaged product or get caught actually processing stuff to sell/use/trade from an illegal hallucingenic plant in order to get in trouble? Or can someone just come along and say, "well I think you have that plant for some other reason than landscaping"? I see alot of these plants at local nurseries.
~SJN

Of course, you see them at nurseries. That's because they are being grown for the "possession, planting, cultivation, growing, or harvesting" of these plants and used "strictly for aesthetic, landscaping, or decorative purposes," by serious gardeners. There may be some wacko out there growing for other purposes, and then the law could be applied to them. There is always a reason why a law is created. Good gardeners don't need to spend any time worrying about these legalities at this point if they are growing them for decorative purposes and to appreciate the amazing beauty of these magnificent plants.

Jroot, you tell that to your local code/law enforcement official that comes knocking due to a complaint. I just laugh and use this time to educate them!! One needs to know if there are legal issued around growing some plants as the laws do change, this is the time also to educate folks.

I hear you, Karma. As a former teacher, I am always willing to try to educate. ....TRY that is.... LOL

BTW, Shorty is doing quite well under lights in the basement. She looks strong and healthy. I think I'll take her up to the bedroom for even more light stimulation.

Have a wonderful holiday season.

have any of you folks seen a crested brugmansia or iochoma. i have one. that is a crested [iochoma fuchsiodes.] i have successfuly rooted cutting. they are bizare. they bloom just the same but the branches come out randomly and the stem is flatened. please let me know if you have any nfo about this.

What get's my knickers in a twist is that here in the south we have many docters offices landscaped with Oleander, so tell me that the plant is safe for children? NOT! You know how kids are. they have to put their hands on everything, so the most toxic plant is placed in front of them when they need to be healed! Then we have wild mushrooms that will pop up all over the place. So now Brugmansia is the bad guy. I blame the the internet , and the media for that.

shroomish_wizard, what do you mean by crested? Do you have a photo? Stem is flattened?

Yes, Belindam, when I read about the hysteria about poisonous plants in the garden ("think of the children") I wonder how we all survived our childhood. Somehow, I never felt the need to stuff any oleander leaves in my mouth, but perhaps I should still accuse my parents of child abuse.

CUTE!

cyndi... I think we live in an age of hysteria... I've read that due to our fears of germs, children aren't growing up with a decent immunity to normal germs... we are actually getting weaker... When I was a child, there was a whole hillside of hemlock... never ONCE did I feel inclined to eat it... it smelled bad! Neither did my infant sister...
oh well, guess you gotta worry about something.

Man; what happened to the good old days of just funny grass? Those were the days... we all knew that wasn't gonna kill us...

Amanda 'romando'

Honestly? I think the Powers That Be went so hog-wild trying to scare people with drug-use horror stories (ever see "Reefer Madness"?) that it backfired when kids tried some funny grass and found out it WOULDN'T kill them---so why should they believe the stories about OTHER drugs?

I say, just put up a"NO TRESPASSING" sign and just enjoy your plants.By calling attention to something then the stupids DO come.By pointing something out...they'll try and chew it,shoot it,lick it,smoke it,or brew it,so it's best not to advertise the fact that a certain something in your yard is dangerous.***Suzanne

Teenagers doing really stupid stuff is nature's way to weed out certain idiocy genes out of the genepool before they get passed on.

Robyn's got a point... it's natures way of survival of the fittest, a cleansing of the gene pool if you will... People can't argue completely against Darwin ;) (no comments needed)... and I also agree that a sign shouldn't be put up announcing the poison... I remember growing with boys that would honestly try something if you told them it's poisonous, dangerous, or you just plain shouldn't touch it... they see it as an invitation... What idiots...
Brittany

I used to do daycare so all poisonous plants had to kept out of the play area. Totally understandable to me. When you have a bunch of 2 year olds its better to play it safe. I no longer do daycare and my children are older. So I have no problem planting brugs or anything else in all areas of my yard. I dont put them close to the fence by my one neighbor cause they have puppies and I would hate to harm them if they were stupid enough to eat them. My other side of the yard there are no puppies or small children so it is loaded. lol My children are older and they know better.

But to know better they have to be tought better and usually that doesnt happen.

BTW regarding the drug wars. Kids will learn better with the basic facts. Trying to make it cute or funny doesnt work. When I was a teen the this is your brain and this is your brain on drugs with the egg in the skillet was the big THIS WILL KEEP THEM FROM DOING DRUGS. Lol I know more kids that tried it cause it had to be good if they were making that big of a deal of it.

Ok this got long, but the short of it is, if that commercial was more along the lines of you will be nothing with no money and no life when you get older, those kids might have thought twice

Carey

romando,

If "funny grass" was legal then we all wouldn't have to worry.

maybe they sell no trespassign signs that look pretty. like "garden art"