How is it a good marriage if one of the partners is mowing the greener grass? If it's such a good marriage, why wouldn't the person looking over the fence, just turn around and talk to their spouse and stay in the 'good' marriage?

It's reasonable that someone may think the grass is greener and later have regret, realize what they walked away from or still love that person, but that doesn't mean they had a good marriage. It doesn't mean they had a bad one either. Marriage isn't as much about happiness or love as some people like to think, it's about commitment and loyalty. If a partner isn't committed or loyal to their marriage, then the marriage is not strong. A good marriage requires both parties to be committed to the marriage.

oh so true so true, bnicebkind. you hit the nerve.

life in the late 80s, early 90s in my home country was so bad so bad, hours in line to buy milk, no hot water, complete change of political regime, so much struggle, a baby, college, random jobs, no money, my parents not getting along with X, us not having a place to live. trying to move somehwere else, having problem with that...2-3 years after divorce (5 years of marraige) we both told each other: we do not know why we got divorced. thought of getting back together, were too scared.

neither one of us is fully settled. he is on his third marriage, still restless and I am still single. there is really nothing majorly wrong with neither one of us. nobody is prefect but nothing is majorly wrong...that's maybe why we always got along after divorce and never had hard feelings.

no, wasn't a bad marriage. life was beyond tough though. we didn't survive the hardship. of course we do not have feelings anymore. But in subsequent almost 17 years after divorce had multiple conversations with each other how things could be different if we would suck it up then.

your post brought tears to my eyes. so true, it is not always bad, life is just so hard at times..

This brought tears to my eyes too, but they were tears of laughter...Are.You.JOKING.

Sorry Fine, Remark meant to OP, not you.....

I think you can have a marriage that's good for 10 years and bad for 5 and end with divorce. It doesn't mean those good years were false, only that something good changed into something that wasn't good for one of you.

Bricebkind,

I agree completely. Sometimes life is too overwhelming, and some people are more easily overwhelmed than others. Sometimes overwhelming events happen at just the wrong time, when the person is weakest.

If divorce were the result of "bad" marriages, how could it be that the divorce rate after the death or serious illness of a child is so much higher? How could it be that the divorce rate is higher in families with children with special needs? There is no reason to think that those couples had inherently weaker marriages.

I completely understand what you are saying but I dont think the title should be that good marriages can end in divorce... but rather the marriage doesnt necessarily have to be bad to end in divorce ... or the people in the marriage dont have to be bad people for it to end... I think if it was a good marriage.. it would have lasted over those hurdles and not crumbled... but there is ALOT between good and bad... and yes good people can get frustrated confused or just plain have made the wrong decision in the first place and the marriage fails and so so marriages that are new or immature or bored or complacent can fail because of those hurdles. But, I wouldnt call them good marriages

I'm sorry. There was something wrong with any marriage that ends in divorce. Something was missing, something changed.... something went wrong at some point for the seperation to happen. It may not be BAD necessarily but it obviously isn't good if one of the parties involved decide to throw in the towel.

It is important to remember also that one person may say it was a good marriage while the other will say something different. In alot of couples I know personally that have split there is always the person who happily moves on and the other who stays hung up and can't let go of "the good ole' days". It is always the one who wanted the divorce who moves on. It isn't coincidental, the "moved on" person wasn't happy and wanted out. That in itself warrants a not so great marriage. These "moved on" folks don't waste alot of time dwelling on what might of been.

Before this turns into a 153 reply thread, HAY ZOOZ....One of the formerly fabulously happily married posters complimented Bnice bkind on how nice and not nasty her posts were.. B knows these posters are in the same boat as her, and is also involved in the marriage forum, where a reply can take a week..I m thinking she needs some instant gratification..I m gonna go out on a limb, and surmise, B, you are not a SM...Your long term marriage ended in divorce, which you didnt want....You are still carrying the TORCH...You want and need someone to agree with you....You never mentioned step parenting in the post...Just another (sounds like anyway)bad husband that made a mistake and still loves you(from all the crying divorced men you talk to)in your mind, anyway...NO good marriages end in Divorce, NONE...Hard times, ask your grandparents and great grandparents how they did it, (Without FLAT screen, mind you)Hard times, stick together, thats how..United we stand , divided we fall..When the going gets tough , the tough get going, thats what the old folks will tell you..Green grass, mistakes, hoochies trolling away happy husbands, you are deluding yourself.....But I think you want your compadres to agree with you.....I cant bear another thread of who took your DH away, a TOW??? A SM??? Sigh, Not nice not kind, just tired of delusions...

I think it is possible for two people to have a good marriage and then hit a bump in the road that is recoverable if they worked through it, but they give up. In my 20s I had a friend who was going through a tough patch, but nothing major (stress at work, in laws who meddling PITAs) and the husband said, "maybe we should get a divorce" and she replied, "maybe we should". Next thing she knew he moved out and then neither would take the necessary step to halt the madness. Most amicable divorce you ever saw. No kids, by the way.

Sue,

I will quote myself from my first response to this thread because you just made my point.

"If a partner isn't committed or loyal to their marriage, then the marriage is not strong. A good marriage requires both parties to be committed to the marriage."

I agree there can be 'amicable' divorces and not all ex's hate each other and in most relationship's, there WERE great times and not everyone is glad after they get divorced, especially when they realize the new grass isn't as green as they thought it was or they see someone else watering THEIR old grass. Most marriages ARE good at some point in time or I don't think they'd get married to begin with. I say most because I do think some get married for other reasons. I think dotz hit the nail on the head though.

i dont think I can go with what dotz said only because bnice bkind has offered a lot of thoughts that were very much outside of that perspective.. and I though .. maybe I am wrong but she is step mom... I can see where she is coming from ... and where fd is soming from ... but like I said there is a lot between good and bad and I think the inbetween is what kills alot of marrianges..

one of the best things I ever heard and I cant remember where I heard it was "marriage is not a commitment it is a choice made again and again and knowing that that choice is the one that you want to make is what keeps the marriage strong and the passion alive."

I disagree that marriage is not a commitment. It is, and should be, a commitment that you keep even if on any given day you would make some other choice.

No matter how good your marriage is, given enough stress on it at the wrong time it can be threatened. A couple may be able to survive a job loss, all four grandparents dying in the same year, and a house fire, but if a child is born with a serious disability on top of that, the marriage could crumble.

If our grandparents were more likely to stay married through thick and thin, it probably had a lot less to do with commitment than it did with the fact that divorce was more difficult to obtain and there was more social stigma associated with it.

Or, looking at it pessimistically, perhaps no marriages are good. The ones that haven't crumbled yet haven't because the couple hasn't yet suffered the particular combination of stresses, opportunities for affairs, and temporary susceptibilities due to hormonal factors, aging, or other internal issues that would cause it to do so.

Mo4 - that is a great quote. I think many of the posts here are correct in many ways. What was a great marriage can hit a bump and end in divorce. The bump can be something caused by neither party in the marriage, such as death or a child's illness, but still be the end of the road. I believe though that before this type of bump there had to have been something to lead on of both parties to the conclusion that working their way over the bump together is not possible. As Dotz said, in the good ol' days divorce wasn't such an easy option. People lost children, lost loved ones, and fought through it together. With divorce such an easy means to an end now, the urge to give up and move on may be too much to resist.
A marriage doesn't turn bad over night. Something starts the ball rolling, it grows, and then it bursts. It could take a life changing burst of an occurrence, such as a death, for someone to realize the ball was even on the roll . . . .

I agree that divorce is too easy to obtain, but I believe a marriage can be destroyed virtually overnight by something sudden, or it can be worn down by something chronic, like dealing with a severe disability in a child. You can not assume that there was anything inherently wrong in the marriage previously.

It can be debated all day and night but my father has been married to my stepmom, who has been in a vegetative state for the past eleven years. He could teach y'all a whole bunch about what STRESS really is. He could also teach y'all a whole bunch about depression too. But, the one thing he has taught me all about is commitment and dedication. When the vows say "through sickness & in health" and "through better or worse", I can't imagine anything worse than what my dad lives through every day. My dad stayed married to my mom for 20 years (including years of alcoholism) and although he finally left her after she refused to end her affair, he was just as dedicated to their marriage until it became apparent that my mom was not dedicated. He could have divorced my stepmom when he realized she can live in this state for decades and might even outlive him, but he not only feels an obligation because of his vows (and there's no doubt in my mind he loves her with all his heart) but he is also a role model to his family. I know he must get lonely and I feel he deserves to be happy with someone, not spend his 'golden' years alone & caring for someone in a vegetative state. But, that is what he committed to and that is what marriage is. Whether you call it commitment or a choice to stay in the marriage, I think it's the same. A commitment is a choice to stay committed, even when times get tough.

But why, TOS, if things were truly solid prior to a sudden occurrence, is there no means of salvation? This is more rhetorical than anything, but what changed in our society that sent us running to the courthouse after the occurrence rather than coming together to ride out the storm?

To me, I think the wearing down of a marriage is 'proof', if you will, of a weak marriage. I do not criticize this so much as just offer up that were the marriage 100% strong, the wearing down would not be individual but felt together. I can't imagine how severe disability of a child would not wear a couple down though. To the parents that deal with this, bless you.

my parents were having problems when they were younger (my dad was very very difficult, mellowed down with age A LOT) and at some point I remember my brother telling my mom: i think you should think about divorce, this is too much. My mom was upset and said: absolutelly not, how could you even suggest?

and as years passed their marriage got better, things changed, they are fine, get along just great. They sucked it up during hard times and survived. they have a good strong marriage now. But what if they wouldn't survive the hardships, would people say now: they got divorced because marriage was bad? Hmmm

you are funny dotz. Tears of laughter...hahaha yeah, kind of. hahahah

No-fault divorce. Lesser social stigma associated with divorce. Greater opportunity to meet potential affair partners in a work environment. The destruction of the middle class and the stress induced by the fact that it is very difficult to afford to raise a family unless both parents are working.

No marriage, or almost none, is strong enough to weather absolutely everything that could be thrown at it. I think in a lot of cases the difference between a marriage that ends in divorce and one that doesn't, after various trials and tribulations, has more to do with luck and how much that particular set of trials and tribulations stresses the participants than anything else. For people whose identity is closely tied to their career, job loss may be much more stressful than for those for whom it is just a job. Some people are better able to cope with a particular kind of disability in a child than other kinds, although a severe disability would be stressful for almost any marriage. I had a friend with 4 kids who adopted a 5th as a preschooler/toddler. She had said she would be ok with any kind of disability other than a major cognitive one. She was told he might have some mild learning disabilities. Within a couple years, they realized that he has FAS and significant cognitive impairment, which she found very hard to cope with. Other people might have no problem with that, but a child with ADHD would drive them around the bend.

wise post, TOS. different things drive different people crazy.

for some people lack of money is just lack of money, but for others it is a tremendous source of stress, for some people getting sick is just getting sick and for others it is the end of the world. every couple goes through every similar hardships but for some it is too unbearable and some can deal with it.

every time my SO gets common cold he acts like he is about to die and it is at times exausting for me. also if he sees me being sick, he acts like he is about to lose me like i am about to die. when i am sick, i am just sick, no biggy. and if others are sick, I take care of them, but I don't make a huge drama out of it. when i get unexpected bill, i am upset for some time and then just move on, my SO acts like he is going bankrupt like he will be on a street tomorrow.

i can see how it drove my SO's X crazy and how she could not it anymore and left.

IMHO if a marriage is strong then it can last through anything. My parents went through so many things that could have torn them apart, but it made them stronger. They have a good marriage. I think that marriages that end in divorce are bad in some way otherwise they would not have ended. I do not believe that there is such thing morally as a no fault divorce. It is the spouses faults when a marriage ends. Maybe they did not try hard enough. Maybe they married someone they really did not love. Maybe they gave into the grass is greener theory and went for it. Either way I think if the marriage was good and solid it would still be holding strong.

I think its very possible for a good marriage to be destroyed by circumstances. One example of that can be mental illness. People who develop a mental illness may not make rational decisions, thus resulting in the destruction of their marriage bond. If they got proper treatment, it probably wouldnt go that far, but with the high cost of treatment and the stigma attached, people dont always seek out ways to help themselves.

The marriage can be structurally good and still fail.

And while I agree that divorce should be harder to get, I think its more important that it be harder to get married in the first place. Its just to easy to get married, and I hear way more young women in particular, talking more about the wedding than the do about the marriage.

my parents and grandparents never celebrated anniversaries, didn't have big weddings. i don't know exactly what day they were married. same with my brother, no anniversaries. and yet their marriages are strong. bunch of people make huge production out of anniversaries and yet end up divorced. same with weddings.

I am going to have to agree with Kathline on this. I am one of those younger generation women and I am sure most people think I am crazy being 25 with a husband who has three kids plus my daughter. But, I can say without a doubt that I went into my marriage a lot clearer than any of my friends that are getting married around me. I cant even count how many all night talks we had about everything from money to how our household should operate to discipline to what my role with his kids would be and what his role with my daughter would be... to where we want to go career wise... what we want to work towards.. goals ... I mean just about everything I could think of or find on the internet that suggested to be talked about we talked about. I dont think there is a topic we didnt cover.. Now, that is a whole lot different than my friend who just married her boyfriend of 4 months in vegas or another of my fiends that just married her bf...but when I asked her some basic questions of have you talked to him about finances... kids...where do you two want to live.. and so on she couldnt answer any of those questions and it didnt seem to bother her in the least... Now the color she wanted for the bridesmaid dresses not being available that really riled her feathers. I think you should have to attend at least one preliminary marriage counseling session before you can get a marriage lisence... where we live you get a discount on the cost of the marriage lisence if you attend pre marital counseling but... I dont think that is really enough.

Dotz: You could not be more wrong. What a scathing scenario you made up, in your attempt to figure out why I must think as I do! You completely missed the mark. In fact, you somehow managed to miss every single point! I think you win a blue ribbon or something! (smile)

I am in a long term marriage. My husband rates our marriage as an 8-9. Me? It depends what day it is, and what is going on around me. How I feel at any given moment can often be governed this way. Kids incessant bickering can affect how I feel at that moment. Laundry up to my knees, mess, noise and chaos can also affect how I feel at any given moment. There are days when everything in me wants to hop in a convertible, turn up the music, and keep on going! (smile) But then morning comes, and it is a new day, and I will think how blessed I am, even though I am awakened by loud snoring at 5:00 a.m. And I think of widows who have said how they now miss the snoring. And so, as I think of these women, I try and appreciate the snoring. Sometimes it works.

I wonder if the differences in our opinions on this subject, may have more to do with youth (or new marriages) versus experience and perspective that come from age and long term marriages. I think I may have agreed with many of you earlier in my life. But my thoughts and views have changed over time. I have learned and shifted my views as I have watched others find their way on this journey through life. I believe what I wrote. Many of those who have posted on this forum (step parent) have posted that they have a great marriage. But the marriage is suffering because of the step children, or a bio-mom, etc. Some have walked away because the problems overwhelmed them, in spite of loving their spouse. Good marriages can end in divorce because sometimes, the externals to the marriage are simply too much. Whether it is a step family, or an intact family, sometimes, the marriage itself can be a good marriage, but people or circumstances outside of the marriage can be overwhelming. It can be financial stress, illness or the care taking of a elderly parent or a child with special needs, or it can be the loss of a job, one is unable to replace. It can be this nagging fantasy that one tosses aside a good marriage, because they had this fantasy of what marriage would be like, and found it less than they imagined marriage to be, as they looked at all of the wedding magazines or movies. It can be the death of a loved one. It can be family problems that attack the very foundation of the marriage. It can be boredom, and yearning for something new. And it can be this overwhelming amount of responsibility placed upon the shoulders of adults today, that control every aspect of their life. The grass can indeed look greener to many people. I think a key trait to whether a marriage makes it for the long term is the ability to persevere. Like an athlete, it is being able to hang in there whether you feel like it or not. Because face it, there will be days or seasons when it will be harder than you imagined. But it is with the understanding that with the hard days or seasons, there will be beautiful and wonderful ones too. Think of how after a long and cold winter, you catch the glimpse of a spring flower, and the sunshine. And you feel hope swell in your chest, that something good is coming. I don't think life is meant to be this constant feeling of "happy". And yet, we wish for it to be. And some of us walk too soon. Because for a season, we grasp that we do not feel "happy", and we give up too soon. We are not willing to struggle, and grow, and change to make our marriages into something beautiful. But like the birth of a child, something beautiful can come from the struggle.

bnicebkind, what a beautiful post. I don't quite understand how a good marriage can end in divorce, but then again I've never been there.

I think in todays world people are very conflicted. Gender roles are becoming less and less relevant, that is good IMO. However, it leaves women in peculiar positions. We now have rights and opportunities that we never had before, even less than 20 years ago. We do not need to stay in a bad marriage or even a marriage that is "good." We can have good, well-paying careers. Own our own homes, cars and take ourselves on vacations. Most women my age could not do this even 40 years ago.

Men have their own problems with this transition as well, look at the rates of men abandoning children for examples.

I believe this change has brought marriage to a whole new playing field. Women don't have to marry, but often times want to and if some of my girlfriends are any indication --they are marrying for the wrong reasons just to get married.

Anyway, IMO this change is a good thing but I do believe it has lead to divorce in many circumstances and it is going to take a while for society as a whole to figure out how to incorporate this into the marriage and family life.

bnicebkind, I understand what you are saying and it's all true. I agree with what you say. However, I stand by "If a partner isn't committed or loyal to their marriage, then the marriage is not strong. A good marriage requires both parties to be committed to the marriage."

I didn't say that they must be committed to or feel close to each other all the time to be in a good marriage, but they must be committed to the marriage for it to be a good marriage. (I didn't even say they need to be happy, although we have become a society that has decided that we 'deserve' to be happy all the time). There ARE going to be times when they don't feel happy or close to their partner and it's not a good marriage if they are not committed to being married and staying married. People can have a love for each other and allow the outside circumstances to overwhelm them and they make a decision to end a marriage, but if they are committed to the marriage, they will struggle through like you say, through those days where they want to give up. THAT is what makes a good marriage. Staying through the struggle, not giving up.

When two people that love each other decide to divorce because of those outside circumstances, they can't say they had a good marriage. They can say they loved each other and maybe they wish they were stronger to stay and deal with those problems together and things would be different, but they can't say they had a good marriage. They had a good relationship, they had a good friendship, they were good together, but they didn't have a good marriage. There IS a difference.

Imamommy, I so agree that a good marriage requires both parties to be committed to the marriage. When I was getting married, I actually asked the pastor to omit the "sickness and in health, for better or for worse, till death do us part" section of the marriage vows. The pastor refused to omit this from the marriage vows. I felt that if I was making vows, I wanted vows that would not condemn me if I wanted an escape clause. Vows that would make it easy for me to just see how it went, and decide if marriage was for me. My other half should have had some major alarm bells going off in his head! And I will also share with you that there were moments early in our marriage that those vows were the only thing that kept me from running. Looking back, I am thankful that I hung in there. That I did not live by the fickleness of my emotions!

But going back to how a good marriage can end up in divorce. Aside from all of the reasons I posted above, another one that comes to mind would be that our lives can become out of balance. We can put our energy (and our best self) into a career, or our children (super mom syndrome), or hobbies/sports, or family obligations, or relationships with friends, and neglect our spouse (our marriage). And our spouse can feel that their needs are not being met, or purposely ignored. He/she can start to make assumptions that may or may not be true. They can begin to feel unappreciated, lonely, unimportant, and unloved. They can attempt to meet those needs outside of the marriage. It can be as simple as filling our emotional needs through friends/family or co-workers, instead of through the husband or wife we promised to love and cherish. And so a marriage that is/was a good marriage, begins to falter, because our priorities got out of balance for awhile, and we did not realize how it was affecting our spouse...sometimes too late.

I think there is some truth in every post on here... and a couple of points that I would disgaree with.

One point I disagree with that I'll address here is this one: "It is always the one who wanted the divorce who moves on. It isn't coincidental, the 'moved on' person wasn't happy and wanted out. That in itself warrants a not so great marriage. These 'moved on' folks don't waste alot of time dwelling on what might of been."

I have found that to be mostly untrue in my own experience, as people have broken up with me (or I them) and it's been realized sooner or later that "moving on" was harder than thought, not really what they wanted after it was given more time and thought, and/or the "moved on" partner wanted the dumpee back. Sometimes the "moved on" partner just needs a break, is momentarily overwhelmed, or any number of factors that mitigate their choice. It would seem to me that the "moved on" person is simply more impelled to state that out-loud at the particular moment it's being said, which can be for a really broad range of reasons, only one of which being that they are the MORE unhappy partner in general, or more officially ready to actually move on. I'm not claiming that the "moved on" person is ALWAYS ambivalent or changes his/her mind, just saying that they are *just as* likely to have lingering doubts, regrets and feelings ---at some point--- as the "moved on away from". Just speaking from my own experiences, having been in both positions numerous times.

In general, it's healthier all around, for everyone connected to or affected by a relationship, even years afterward, to give up any idea about what a "good marriage" means that causes a finger of blame or judgement to be pointed in anyone's direction for the purposes of making oneself feel better or superior in comparison. Easier said than done, I know!!! (I'm currently going through a break-up, so I know the temptation to point fingers!) Whether it's "I feel better about myself because my husband's first wife was an inferior person and, as such, caused their divorce" or "I feel better about myself because my ex-husband was an inferior person for thinking too much with his ---er--- other brain"... Either way, if the ultimate goal in some of these definitions of "good marriage" is to make someone else (or YOURSELF!) out to be an "inferior" person, it will only continue to fester and linger as pain for you and others affected by that relationship. It's the hardest thing to do sometimes but the only way to feel real peace about your own relationship or anyone else's is to accept partial responsibility, accept that others have partial responsibility, and if things don't work out, it's no judgement call, just an unfortunate outcome of a whole complex cluster of events, timing, predispositions and expectations that got out-of-whack at some point. You can only try to learn from mistakes and hope things improve in the future, either with that person or with someone else. Most relationships, and at least half of officially sanctioned marriages these days, will end. Does that mean that the majority of people are not "good" or "strong"? No. It means relationships are hard for most people, perhaps not designed to last forever in most cases, get commited to entirely too young in most cases, and we're meant most of all to learn from them.

on the other hand....

unfortunatelly "in sickness and health until death and so on" is what kept women in abusive marriages. so commitment should be there but...I'd rather people know that they do not have to stay if they are obviously mistreated.

A colleague of mine, religious Christian, is in emotionally abusive, bad miserable marriage, in and out of religious type of therapy (would not go to secular therapy). She sad she stays in this marriage because "in sickness and health blah blah". It is sad to watch her.

Funny that she asked her DH to go to a regular family therapist, he refused insisting on relgious one. I guess he is afraid therapist might say: this is abuisve, get out, forget about vows.

So I am not that sure about "in sickness and health".

There are a few 'good' reasons to leave marriage: Abuse (physical or mental), addiction problems (drugs, alcohol or sex), infidelity, and criminal behavior.

A single incident of any of these may or may not be a good reason alone (depending on severity of the problem) but when one spouse is not willing to address one of these problems and the other spouse has tried to get help for the marriage but is alone in the marriage, because the other spouse denies the problem or refuses to get or accept help to deal with one of these problems, it is unreasonable to expect a spouse to stay in a marriage under those circumstances. I don't know why anyone would want to stay in a marriage with those kinds of problems. It's twisted for an abusive person to use the marriage vows to keep their victim there while they are breaking those same vows by not cherishing their spouse.

Serenity, I tend to agree with you as to who has moved on. Based on what X has told DD (basically the good ole days were before she was born) -- he was trying to recreate his youth. Which even if you want to, just cant be done.

I don't believe good marriages end in divorce. If the marriage is good for both, there would be no divorces.

BNICE... Thank goodness you are in a long term marriage!!! LOL You were scaring me with the crying divorced men..Nancy Drew better get back to class LOL Are you also a stepparent, curious....AND LOL On the ESCAPE CLAUSE when you said your vows!!!!!!!DAG!! Wish I would have dreamed THAT up!!!I would have had more than one written in LOL.....

finedreams: All of the religious counselors I have ever heard speak regarding marriage problems, have always suggested that abuse and infidelity are grounds for divorce. I believe that people who stay in a marriage where either occurs may hold on to this as the reason they stay. I would venture to guess that they actually stay because of fear. Whether it is a fear of being alone, or a fear of being unlovable, or a fear of supporting themselves or children on their own, or a fear of the violent person getting visitation rights and their inability to protect their children, or fearing that if they left, that they would make their spouse very angry, or all of the above, I think it boils down to fear. Perhaps they don't want to lose their home and life as they know it. And it is easier to use the vows and church as their reason for staying in such a situation, than to admit that they are afraid to be alone. When chronic infidelity occurs within a marriage, perhaps they feel responsible somehow. Or their sense of self esteem is so damaged, but again, I think it often is fear that keeps them from leaving. Or perhaps they don't leave because they really do not want another woman/man parenting their children, or involved in the lives of the children and family.

bnice, she actually told two of us, coworkers, that counselor is encouraging them to stay in the marriage. The other coworker is a psychotherapist herself and she suggested they go see a family therapist, not religion based. She did consider it, but her husband said :no. I guess we know why...oh and then the other coworker (psychologist one) suggested maybe trial separation. And she answered that their counselor said: this is not a good idea, you said your vows blah blah blah. hhhmmmm

I do not know why she stays excatly, but she always talks how they promised before G_d, and in church etc and how that's why divorce is out of the question. Fear or no fear but those vows brainwashed her. Nothing against religion by no means, but get your own brain!

bnice I agree about balance and priority. so many couples focus on mandane things like who cleans the house, who cooks or who pays what bills and emotional needs tend to get ignored. Sometimes it is better to leave dishes unwashed and meals not cooked, but meet each other more deeper needs...

Most may insist on religious based counsel because they believe they are coming from the same point of view, regarding marriage, which obviously can be important. But some may go for religious based counsel because it is free, or much, much less expensive per hour than a typical therapist that may charge $125 and up PER HOUR. For long term marriage counseling, it could really add up, and is still only as successful as the couple's willingness to do the work and actually change their behavior that is causing the distress in the marriage.

they both are very well paid. VERY. and there are plenty of therapists who use sliding scale so if they would make very little money they would end up paying very little. My therapist is on a sliding scale and she is excellent, director of a mental health clinic with life long experience. plenty of inexpensive counselling. Price is always an excuse. Husband in this story apparently does not want to change anything and she is still there BECAUSE of the vows. It is convenient for him, why would he change?