we tried that and she completely shut down. She started crying and said she doesn't remember and doesn't know how it happened. When DH told her that if she doesn't tell him, he may have to get the authorities involved, she cried no, don't do that. But she still won't talk. He's not going to talk to her about it anymore and let the counselor talk to her.

On a side note, I mentioned that on Friday, it came out that she had been kissing a boy at school and then talking about him wanting to 'mate' with her. Well, she was talking to me today and when I asked her how she knows about what (oral sex) is, she told me that her mom's BF's daughter told her. I find it hard to believe since she's only 7 and according to her mom, she was all sweet & innocent until BM started showing her how to bump & grind dance a few months ago. I don't really believe a 7 year old is going to be explaining that to a 9 year old that has prior issues with acting out sexually. There's just so many lies... don't really know what to believe.

Well, BM picked up SD from school today at 2. It's about a three hour drive to her house so presumably, she got there around 5. Around 5:30, she left a message on DH's phone that SD fell off her bike.

Now, I would expect to hear a message like:

"I wanted to let you know SD fell off her bike. She's okay (or not okay and we're going to the hospital). Call me when you get this message."

but instead, the message was:

"Hey, just wanted to let you know DD fell off her bike just now and so she has a big scratch on the back of her leg, one on her knee. So if she has bruises on her hands and the rest of her body, it's probably from that, She landed face first."

DH tried to call to see if she has to go to the hospital or if she's okay but BM didn't answer the phone. I'm getting a really bad feeling about that call and worried she's going to take it out on SD that DH asked her about the bruise on her arm. To me, it sounds like she's trying to cover all her bases by giving an up front reason to explain away any bruises SD might come back with. My daughter says "gee, she rides her bike here all the time and has never fallen off."

Even experienced bike riders have falls. Getting chased by dogs, getting cut off by other bikers, etc. DH should definitely call SD. If he doesnt think explanation makes sense, he should ask mom to take her to doctor. If mom refuses, thats a tough one, but you have to consider whether he/you want to drive over and see for yourself.

Or she could just be trying to head off accusations from you and her exH.

Your SD has NEVER fallen off her bike? She must be more coordinated (and lucky) than my kids. Or than I, for that matter.

It would be pointless to try to pass off bruises from a beating as bruises from a fall off a bike, unless they are planning on beating her on the palms of her hands and on her knees.

theotherside, I do believe she IS trying to head off accusations. It's more suspect to me since nobody has accused her of anything as of yet. All DH did was ask her if she knew how SD got the bruise. She could have said they were near a road and she had to grab SD from running into the street or anything innocent like that. DH can't just ignore such an obvious bruise. We've ignored bruises that look like she could get them playing or falling down by accident. Those aren't a big deal.

I was trained in identifying abuse and was mandated to report suspected abuse. I would not report a bruise or scratches that look like normal 'kid playing' bruises or injury. The lying about it only makes them both look like they are hiding something. I think the part of her message that disturbs me most is "So if she has bruises on her hands and the rest of her body, it's probably from that," because if she falls face first and lands on her hands, how does she get a cut on the back of her leg, a scrape on her knee and bruises 'all over her body'? All that from ONE fall off the bike? c'mon theotherside, tell me how that would happen? I know kids fall and stuff happens. I don't really want to believe a mom would hurt her own kid but if you could hear the message and the tone of her voice, not an ounce of 'concern' that her kid just fell and is hurt, she's angrily telling DH 'this is what happened, so THERE!' and didn't say if she's okay or not. didn't ask DH to call or say she'll call back and now she isn't answering her phone.

Ima, to me this thread started with a pretty inocuous looking photo, so I am kinda confused if you wer trained in identifying abuse. And yes, one fall can have all types of bruises (some of which may not show up immediately).

My impression from the content of her message is that she is p*** off that he is accusing her, so she is trying to head off future accusations with overkill. Sort of like sending back a detailed menu of everything she ate if he accused her of not feeding her enough.

You get a cut on the back of your leg from the chain and gears or that metal part right on top of the chain as the bike lands on top of you (been there, done that).

kkny, if this wasn't my stepdaughter, but a neighbor's child, I would probably have reported the bruise in the picture and let a professional investigate if it's founded or unfounded. The bruise got my attention before she even got into the car, but I thought it was a temporary tattoo on her arm. She frequently comes back with temp tattoos on her hands, arms and belly so I didn't pay much attention to it. It wasn't until we were halfway home, I looked back to see if she was awake & she had fallen asleep. I saw that it was finger marks and told DH. He wanted to give BM a chance to explain it before making any accusation and her response is that it was there when she was picked up from school. He would have believed that if SD hadn't told him it happened at mom's house. Now you have two conflicting stories and he is now more concerned. BM jumps to being defensive when nobody has even accused her of anything. I'd understand her getting defensive if anyone had accused or implied she had anything to do with it. But, when she said it happened before SD went there, he didn't say anything else to her, so there is no reason for her to be getting defensive, is there? Why head off future accusations with 'overkill' when nobody has made any accusations?

and theotherside, I get that the back of the leg would get scratched by the pedal or chain, and the hands & knees from breaking the fall, but why would she say 'bruises all over her body'? If the fall was nasty enough to bruise all over her body, I'd think a trip to the hospital would be in order, to make sure she's okay.

The difference between reporting as a mandated reporter and now is that as a mandated reporter, I was not personally involved and was less likely to be accused of making a false report. I was also protected from civil liability. My DH is concerned about making a report because of the custody battle they've had but he only wants to make sure his daughter is safe. This isn't about BM vs. SM. If a SM put a bruise like that on a stepchild, there would be NO QUESTION the authorities would be called. If it were my child, I would call. I think my DH should call but understand his reluctance. I also would like the opinions of anyone that has had this issue in their situation. I'd like to know what they did and what was the outcome.

I think it sounded like accusations to the mother. I detected a note of sarcasm in the content of her message, though of course I didn't actually hear it. I think the 'bruises all over her body" may also have been a sarcastic jibe. Let's assume for the moment that the mother is perfectly innocent - if that is the case, then she may very well be feeling persecuted.

"kkny, if this wasn't my stepdaughter, but a neighbor's child, I would probably have reported the bruise in the picture and let a professional investigate if it's founded or unfounded"

Glad I dont live nextdoor to you -- that bruise looks pretty inocuous to me.

I havnt read all of whats goin on here,but looking at that picture of the bruise,that is absolutly no proof that this child is getting hit, my kids get far worse bruises than that and nobody hits them.
If i were the girls mum and you were sending me pics of her bruise asking where they are from,i would think you were accusing me of having somthing to do with it,and doesnt the girl think it strange that you are taking pictures of her bruises and constantly asking about them,she is probly playing on it now and loving the attention.
anybody can fall of a bike ,you are just looking for things to blame the mum for

The arm bruises don't look that bad to me, but coupled with the differring stories, I can see your concern. Mom calling about the bike fall is wierd. Our SD burned her arm on a novelty black light, and my husband didn't call her mom right away, and when I saw it, I made him call because it looked intentional to me...like a cigar burn or something. Of course there were never any differring stories on how it happened or anything like that, but from that experience I can see how injuries could get mistaken for abuse when they're not.

Now, as for the oral sex...my DD and SD are both 9, and I could bet my ife that neither of them knows a thing about oral sex. There is absolutely no reason for her to have that kind of knowledge, and that's what I find abusive. Now, my SD knows a lot of things I think she shouldn't from her mom...like about birth control and getting your tubes tied. Both girls know about sex and where babies come from, but I had to tell SD not to speak to DD about birth control. I just told her that that's a topic for talking to your mother about. I think it's odd that a 9 year old would need to know that sex can be pleasurable and therefore you need ways to prevent pregnancy other than just not having it.

If my SD came home talking about oral sex, DH and I would flip and that is a topic I don't think you should be shy about bringing to light. I would want to know exactly where she got that information. I am pretty certain that most 3rd and 4th graders don't have knowledge of that topic, so I find it improbable that she heard it at school. I know the kids at my DD's school have "boyfriends" and "girlfriends", but I'm pretty sure it's just a title and that it doesn't involve much more than asking "Will you go with me"...or however kids say that now.

Maybe I'm a fuddy duddy too, but I didn't find out about oral sex until my first boyfriend asked me to give it to him....and I was very young at the time, but not 9...more like 14 or 15. I'm scared for your SD....just stopped to say a prayer for her. I'll have to leave the rest to you and God.

My interpretation is that SD spilled the beans to BioMom about being "grilled" over the arm bruises (sorry - but that's how it came across, though I understand why certainly), and BioMom concluded that you (plural you) were thinking there may have been abuse and are 'building a case' against her. So she's offended, ticked off and mounting a pre-emptive defense against perceived future attacks. You may not have accused her of anything in person or officially -- but by repeatedly questioning SD about the bruises, the implicit accusation was pretty clear. I'm not suggesting you were wrong to be concerned, Ima. The appearance of finger marks and the constantly changing stories are suspicious. But the situation has now become antagonistic and hostile, and that's a problem.

What about having DH call BioMom with a peace offering? Something along the lines of "I'm sorry that this situation has escalated into something nasty. I know you love SD and are also concerned for her welfare, and I imagine you'd probably be just as worried as we were if she came to your house with bruises that looked like finger marks and couldn't give you a straight answer about how she got them. We were trying to find out what happened, NOT jumping to conclusions, and I'm sorry that got twisted around."

Then go back to "watch carefully and wait" mode. Know that SD is in an impossible situation between the proverbial rock and hard place, and that this situation has the potential to get much nastier with lies and manipulations being used against both sides.

My advise - diffuse the tension.

kkny
"Glad I dont live nextdoor to you"

That makes two of us.

oh_my, I took the picture of her arm while she was asleep on the way home. There's a shadow over it but by Wednesday, it had gotten much darker and when she left on Friday, it was still there, starting to fade. Most of the other bruises she's had have all looked like they could have happened by falling but this one did look like she was grabbed really hard by the arm. Abusive? It would depend on why it happened, like I said, there may have been a reasonable explanation. The flat out denial that it happened in her care by BM and SD saying different were the reason it became a bigger concern.

As for the oral sex, she is blaming BM's BF's DD7. I doubt it and there's no way to find out for sure how she would know those things. We do know BM has had sex in front of SD when SD was much younger and BM sleeps with her current BF in a loft w/ no doors. There are no other bedrooms so if they are doing anything when the kids are there, I guess it's a possibility that the kids can hear it or even stand on the stairs and see it. I don't know if they would do that, they are BFDD7, SD9, BFDS10, BFDS12 and SD's sister is 12. Not all of them are always there at the same time but who knows what they see or talk about. SD could also be hearing that at school from other kids. But, we do know that BM is into certain things and her new BF has issues too. (BM is into swinging & group activities and her BF lost his job of 14 years for misusing his computer at work because of an internet porn addiction. He was also facing a sexual harassment case from that at work because he was a supervisor but I don't know any other details of what happened.) Our biggest worry with SD is that she is very provocative and boy crazy. She started out the year sitting on a 7th or 8th grade boys' lap on the bus and trying to kiss him. She's getting to the age where the boys that she 'chases' like that aren't going to tell the bus driver to make her leave them alone (like the older boy did Thank God!) but there could be some boys that say 'hmm there's an easy girl' and take advantage of her. Her counselor told us that there isn't anything we can really do because she is doing what she sees her mom doing. Having a man, being sexy and getting men's attention is what BM values and makes her feel important and loved. Those are the things her daughters are going to think are important too. DH and I talk to her about respecting herself and loving herself and focusing on school and accomplishments instead of worrying about if a certain boy likes her. We try to keep her busy and involved in things that build up her self esteem and hope it helps but when we find out she's had a BF at school and they are talking about sex, it is scary. Like I've said before, when I first met SD, I saw red flags that she may have been sexually abused. IMO, it happened well before I met her and later, when SD told me that she saw her mom & BF in bed doing that stuff (when I caught SD posing her barbies in sex positions), that to me was sexual abuse. It happened when she was very young and it was brought up later in court but dismissed because it had happened too long back and there was really no proof, other than hearsay that SD told me she saw it. BM had been broken up with that BF for about a year when it came to light.

I worry about her and pray for her all the time too. I got her a book someone here recommended about puberty and I've had talks with her on everything. When she told me about the oral sex, I talked to her more about respect and the emotional part of sex. It's so hard because I didn't have these problems with my daughter. My daughter didn't really care about boys until sixth grade.

According to this survey:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1622610

43% of Americans think is is totally appropriate to discuss oral sex in sex ed classes in middle school. Our middle school starts in 4th grade, so middle schoolers here as as young as nine. I don't know of any middle schools in the area that start later than 5th grade.

Sorry - that's supposed to be "it is" and "are as."

Talking frankly with your kids about sex and physical intimacy is one thing... I'm all for kids knowing the facts about sex. I think that arming them with knowledge is the best way for them to be able to negotiate difficult adolescent situations. However, I don't think that nine year olds need the nitty gritty details of sexual positions and so on. I think for most nine year olds, the bare bones are enough information and information like that oral sex is sometimes called __ or __, and needs protection just like intercourse and so on can be saved for a few years down the road.

At any rate 43% is still less than half. Here our middle school is 6th through 8th, so that would be at least 11 years old...not 9. IMO, if those statistics are true, then 43% of Americans are sick and twisted. I would flip my lid if the school discussed oral sex with my child. I don't know about where anyone else lives, but here we have to sign waivers for any kind of sex education class, and the children can be exempted from the entire class or any part of it if the parents so choose.

What is wrong with letting children just be children for a while? Children get way too much adult content pushed upon them at way too young an age. Statistics like the one TOS cited are the reason so many people are choosing to homeschool nowadays.

That had nothing to do with why I homeschooled my kids when they were younger. I did so because I was concerned with the quality of education and the lack of individual attention.

My school allows parents to exempt their children from various things, but I don't think that very many people do. The default is that the child goes to class; if the form is not signed and sent back (or the child never brings it home in the first place), they are not exempted. I know during the Monica Lewinsky scandal, kids in my children's middle school knew what oral sex was.

I just asked my 15 year old, and she said that her sex ed teacher discussed oral sex in either 7th or 8th grade. I realize that 12 or 13 is three or four years older than ima's SD, and I wouldn't go out of my way to discuss oral sex with my kids at that age - but I might have if I had a daughter whose period started at 9 like it does in a fair number of girls.

* Posted by theotherside (My Page) on
Sat, May 10, 08 at 18:50

According to this survey:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1622610

43% of Americans think is is totally appropriate to discuss oral sex in sex ed classes in middle school. Our middle school starts in 4th grade, so middle schoolers here as as young as nine. I don't know of any middle schools in the area that start later than 5th grade.

* Posted by theotherside (My Page) on
Sat, May 10, 08 at 20:18

I just asked my 15 year old, and she said that her sex ed teacher discussed oral sex in either 7th or 8th grade. I realize that 12 or 13 is three or four years older than ima's SD, and I wouldn't go out of my way to discuss oral sex with my kids at that age - but I might have if I had a daughter whose period started at 9 like it does in a fair number of girls.

I think mom is feeling attacked and is responding sarcastically.

I also think that mom may have a valid reason to feel attacked. Over and over in your threads, I read how upset you and your husband get by things that happen, and how you often seem to jump to conclusions.

Examples...tuna wasnt drained properly and made the girl sick

Ice cream for breakfast made her sick

An orange pill was some kind of narcotic ( motrin IS an orange pill)

Bruises on her arm, which really are not very big, were caused by abuse.

I also think that your husband badgers the daughter until she says something that somehow confirms for him that daughter is lying. In reality, the daughter is probably feeling pressured to say something that will shut her father up. He has brought up this bruise several times. She answered him but he keeps bringing it up, making threats that if she doesnt tell him the truth, then he will cause problems.

Geezuz, If i were the kid, I would have a nervous breakdown living like that. The kid obviously doesnt feel that she is believed. Its wildly inappropriate for your husband to continually ask about the same thing, imo. Ask once. If the story doesnt fit, ask mom. If moms story doesnt fit and its serious THEN report it. BUt leave the poor kid out of it.

Over and over , you claim that your stepdaughter lies when she is asked what happened. Does she? or is it just that her version doesnt fit with what you and your husband want to believe, so you choose to believe she lies.

I really get the feeling that your stepdaughter hides a lot from you and her father, because she doesnt feel as if she has approval.

FOr all your talk of how you have done this parenting class and that one, you dont seem to put into practice what you say you have learned. You DO put the girl in a position of having to choose between pleasing your husband, and pleasing her mother. Your husband does handle things directly with a nine year old girl rather than with mom, out of earshot. Both sides are constantly bringing up threats of CPS. You make a point to trade stories with moms boyfriends ex. YOu do snoop into your stepdaughters personal journals to satisfy your curiousity because you believe mom is bad. MOm may be, she may not be. But you have your mind made up and look for facts to support that. Everything you see about this mom is seen through the light of your suspicions.

NOw, mom may be a total loser, who isnt doing what is right for her daughter. But in my opinion ( which again, you can give all the consideration it deserves, since I dont know you or your circumstances) you and your husband do nothing to help ease this situation or make it more cooperative. YOu seem to thrive on finding a way to be RIGHT, and to PROVE that your suspicions are correct, rather than trying to find a way that the girl can love both parents.

I feel very very sorry for the girl here, and I can only see serious trouble for her when she hits her teens.

And of course, because you always get defensive, you will probably write a book here trying to explain how I am wrong in my opinion. IN reality, my opinion doesnt matter, and shouldnt matter to you. But all the defensiveness in the world doesnt change what I think is happening here.

Kathline I agree. While Ima may care for the SD, it seems to me her hatred for the mother is stronger than her love for the child.

Kathline, I have nothing to be defensive about. My husband did ask her a few times, probably too many times how it happened because she repeatedly gave him stories that were not plausible. He could not deal with BM since BM flat out said it didn't happen there and SD was making up stories. The likely scenario is that SD believes DH would be upset if he finds out. Guess we'll never know the truth. Does a dad have the right to know if his child is in danger or being hurt? It would be interesting to know what a BM would do if their child came back from dads & SM's with a bruise and didn't get a straight answer on how it happened. I'm sure BM wouldn't care to find out if SM did it.

and kkny, I don't have any hatred of BM. I don't agree with a lot of the things she does, but that isn't hatred. She can do whatever she wants, whether I approve or not. And she does. When it affects me, then I might have stronger feelings about it, but I have never told BM a thing. (ok, except the time she was supposed to be here to pick up SD at 11 and didn't leave her house until 10:30 and I told her that I'm not waiting around all day and she blew up at DH because I told her that)

I'd much rather her be the mom she pretended to be when I first met her. Maybe if she breaks up with her boyfriend, her kids will be her priority again. But then again, that was a facade because while she was acting like they were her priority, she was really leaving them with grandma and going out looking for a boyfriend. I wish my SD had the mom she wishes she had.

kathline has written evertything i wanted to say.
As for this child knowing about oral sex,yes she is young at nine but kids know these things especially with having older siblings,youd be suprised what nine year olds know about,its impossible to keep these things secret for ever,they just pick things up.My daughter had sex education at nine ,they need to be told young as girls seem to start there periods so young these days,my daughter was ten but a few girls in her class were nine.
My neice is eight and she told her mum what a bj was.Of course her mum was horrified and asked how she knew.the twelve year old neighbour had yold her .
Its just part of growing up.it doesnt mean sexual abuse,kids are just so curious.

Kathline said exactly what I was thinking as well, although probably more gently than I would have.

If one of my kids came home with a small bruise like that, I wouldn't question their explanation.

I keep wondering why your SD said that if her father pursues this, she wouldn't be living with HIM anymore. It could be that she has heard that if there are abuse allegations the child could end up in foster care, but that doesn't make a lot of sense either because in her case the most likely placement would be her grandmother, I think. Are you 100% sure that there is no relative/acquaintance/neighbor who could have grabbed her arm in the day or two before she went to her mother's? I might have gone days within noticing a bruise like that - maybe forever, since my kids almost never wear sleeveless shirts.

Another unrelated point that occurred to me - her mother drives six hours round trip, three times a month to see her daughter, at $3.50 or more a gallon, yet you imply she doesn't care about her. That is six hours out of her week - if she were living with her mother, the actual physical caretaking of a nine year old wouldn't take much more than that. Yes, I realize that apparently your husband does the same thing, but I am not questioning whether he cares about his daughter, although I think his continued questioning of her is probably driving her up the wall.

BM has driven the six hour round trip, but hasn't done that in over a month. The last few weeks, she has sent her mother, who lives about an hour away from us, to pick up her daughter from school. Her mother then drives the girls to BM. Her mother also goes to pick up her other daughter on Sunday afternoon. Overall, she has also been late on most of her visits and has canceled a few weeks when having her daughter doesn't fit into her plans.

The actual physical caretaking of a 9 year old isn't much more than six hours a week? Are you kidding me? Between homework, shopping for them, cooking meals, her evening routine, etc. You are comparing the six hour drive to THAT? Only three of the hours would include her child with her. and yes my husband does drive the six hours and has done so every time, except on two Monday's that he had to work and BM got a three day weekend. He has also NEVER been late, we leave early to make sure we are on time in case there is traffic. So, I don't know what your point is.

and gas is $3.96 a gallon here.

Ima, in one way I see where Kathline is coming from - this bruise is no big deal and it's totally plausible that she has no idea how she got it, so jumping to alarmist conclusions is a bad idea... If this bruise existed in isolation, and there hadn't been other weird things happening at BM's place, I'd say "Oh, Ima's just being alarmist and overreacting"... But in combination with all the other little things over the months, I think it's good that you're concerned and documenting.
Just like Sweeby said in Amaulden's post, abuse starts out as small things, that escalate little by little. So maybe you should try to step back a bit about asking BM about those sorts of things, but keep track of them quietly and subtly. You SHOULD be concerned, but try to keep an open mind.

ima,

You have to cook anyway. I spend about half an hour in the morning getting my daughter off to school, and maybe half an hour helping her with homework M-Th. Even at nine, my daughter was doing most of her bedtime routine by herself. I do spend additional time taking her to martial arts and to physical therapy, and time just talking with her, watching TV, and such.

I agree Ceph. After talking to her counselor, she also thought it would be best to not ask BM or SD anything because just asking SD makes her jump into protective mode. She says SD is going to clam up if she thinks anyone is against her mom. I told DH that it does no good to keep asking her (after her third 'story') because we could see that SD was thinking about what to say and trying to put together something that made sense. When I read Sweeby talk about the progression, that is what I thought of with BM. Any ONE of the things that BM has done are minor things that probably wouldn't matter to anyone, but when she goes from the kind of mom she was when I met her (seemingly wonderful mom) to all the things she's done over the last year (that have my jaw dropping), it's like seeing a different person emerge. I'd love for her to prove me wrong and that I'm crazy. So far, everything that I have 'predicted' in private to my husband about BM's behavior has proved true.

and I still don't see what your point is theotherside. How does her transporting her daughter to visits compare to daily care & interaction? Thanks for reminding me that we also take SD to the therapist, doctor, school functions, and girl scouts. (and watch TV, talk to her, and such) SD can do her entire bedtime routine herself, but that doesn't mean the parents don't oversee it and make sure she gets it done. What's your point again?

If she was caught up in a lie about what caused the bruises, she was probably roughed up. I bruise very easily. My doctor notice finger mark bruises on me one time. when he asked about them I told him my husband did that and I laughed. We were on the floor scuffling, is that a word? Anyway it fits, we were rolling around on the floor trying hold each other down. I wonder if the doctor believe that. LOL AND a couple of weeks ago I carried a large piece of driftwood to the berm. I rested it against my upper thigh and every time I took a step it caused a finger size bruise there.

I probably spend more time with my daughters, especially the one who goes to bed at 8, on the weekend than I do all week. I think the amount of effort expended in the physical care of my daughter isn't even close to the effort of driving about 300 miles three weekends out of four, and whereas I rather enjoy watching my daughter's martial arts lessons, all that driving would definitely be no fun. It makes no sense for your SD's mother to give her father custody if the motivation was to make her own life easier, because there is no way it did that.

"It makes no sense for your SD's mother to give her father custody if the motivation was to make her own life easier, because there is no way it did that."

You'd have to ask her what her motivation is. She doesn't make the effort to drive here & pick up her daughter, she has passed that on to her mother most of the time. On the weekend, who knows how much time is actually spent expended in the physical care of SD? I can say that she has a lot of fun. She rides her ATV, they've gone fishing, they eat out. SD says her mom set up a TV & video games for her to turn on in the mornings so BM can sleep in. That's understandable I guess. Lots of people like to sleep in on weekends. I'm usually up making breakfast so sleeping in to me is 7:30 since I'm up at 6 on weekdays to get SD ready for school. It's good that SD has a lot of fun at her mom's but she doesn't have to bathe or brush her teeth. That's not a complaint or put down of BM, it's her call if SD needs a bath. A couple of days of not brushing her teeth aren't going to end the world. I'm just saying that is what happens there. She would go four or five days without brushing her teeth when they shared 50/50 so it's nothing new. So, if you are comparing her riding ATV and spending the weekend doing fun things with BM is comparable to making sure she has her homework done, does her personal hygiene and other activities here (including our weekends and the weekends BM cancels on her) then I don't see them as comparable.

If you don't see how it makes her life easier that now she is living with her boyfriend with no kids at all during the week, she can sleep in all day. She's free to go out with her new boyfriend at the drop of a hat during the week (and on her weekends too as her BF's parents are around to babysit) and she doesn't have to worry about the day to day care of raising children. No school stuff (conferences, homework, etc.), no doctor/dentist visits, no having to deal with her daughter's bad moods or problems with kids at school, etc.

Again, you'd have to ask BM why she would give custody of her daughter to DH. I'd also ask her why she left her other daughter behind with Grandma. I'm sure it has nothing to do with making her life easier.

I guess she must like to drive a lot more than I do.

I don't find taking care of kids that age all that hard. I guess if I did, I wouldn't have had six of them. Actually, I am rather envious of John and Kate + 8. Sextuplets plus twins would be really cool.

Don't get me started on Jon & Kate, please.

Those two....arggghhh. Just google them if you want to know the real truth.

What real truth? I just googled them and didn't find anything of importance.

"Actually, I am rather envious of John and Kate + 8. Sextuplets plus twins would be really cool."

I'm not surprised you would say that. I love kids too but, I think it's sad that the parents have to market their children in order to feed & support them. (not to mention the risk to the children from having so many babies at once.) That's not something I would be envious of.

All I said was that I think it would be cool to have sextuplets and twins. I wouldn't intentionally have six kids at once - I don't think anyone would plan that. Every time someone uses in vitro they risk multiple births - does that mean that no one should use IVF? Although I am pro-choice, I can understand how someone would be unwilling to undergo selective reduction.

I am not at all sure that the children are being harmed from the television show. They get to have some interesting and educational experiences that they wouldn't otherwise have. What about child actors? They are "marketed" too.

However, there is no reason for you to harass me just because I would enjoy having healthy sextuplets. I think they are very fortunate to have them.

That bruise SD had could be something fishy especially since there was no proper explanation....But now we question if she trully fell off the bike.... People do fell, it sounds very realistic. DD had a concussion two month ago from running and bumping her head on a cabinet door, and she is 20. Com'n, people do fall down in any age, especially at 9.

I actually did found impressive all this driving. 300 miles? It is A LOT of driving. I assume most people who live that far away would have EOW arrangement rather than EW. I wonder if BM will end up having custody of SD, if dad will drive EW 300 miles. Somehow i suspect he won't...Maybe EOW. And since there are different standards for men, nobody will have any problem with that....

tos, Jon & Kate have been begging for handouts from the government (i.e. claiming they need a full time nurse in the home paid by the county) but turning down local volunteers just because Kate doesn't like them. I'm surprised you found nothing by Google, there is a whole lot more.

Anyway, I just meant that those two drive me batty not that it was something to do with you wanting that many kids.

"What about child actors? They are "marketed" too."

My sister was going to get my nephew involved but when she saw how it was, changed her mind. Have you seen how many child actors end up burnt out and depressed, on drugs or dead by the time they should be starting out their lives? I'm not 'harassing' you because I have a different opinion about something. Aren't I entitled to my opinion as well as you are?

We aren't questioning her falling off her bike. My DH just called her to see if she was okay. It's BM & SD's behavior that are weird. I can see that she may be defensive. When we pulled up to pick SD up, they were standing in the driveway. SD said she had to show DH the scratches on the back of her leg to dad before she could get in the car. I didn't see anything on her hands or knees but I guess that doesn't matter, it's been a couple of days. So we leave & stop for dinner. As we are eating, SD mentions that her leg & head hurt. DH says out loud that he wonders if it's a concussion and I mention the hospital. SD's face gets a terrified look on it and she says it only hurts a little bit. She starts to minimize how much it hurts. So, DH is trying to assess if she has a head injury that needs to be looked at and asks what the pain feels like. SD starts to tell him the story of how it happened and we stop her and tell her we don't need the story on HOW she fell off her bike (which is what she was telling us) but how it feels now. She starts to tell us about her leg pain but he's only concerned with her head. She starts out saying it's throbbing but concussion & hospital are mentioned, she says it doesn't really hurt much at all. and finedreams, since your daughter had a concussion, did she go to the hospital? and what did they do for it?

and it isn't 300 miles away. I don't know where theotherside came up with THAT. It's about 3 hours away. It's about 150 miles each way but we live up in the mountains and she lives up in a different set of mountains so there are a lot of slower curvy two lane roads to drive on. And yes, my DH would drive it. We drive it every week to pick her up. They would do the EXACT SAME amount of driving if she came to pick up SD instead of sending her mom. But they are both equally responsible for transporting the same time/distance. I don't know why you would doubt he would do it. When she goes over there for the summer, he will get SD the same 1st three weekends of each month. And when they had 50/50, DH drove her 45 minutes every morning to school on his weeks and I drove 45 minutes (each way) to go pick her up. BM didn't have to drive because she lived a few blocks from the school. Again, that's not a complaint, that's just the arrangement they had and DH never had a problem with it. We also never had a problem driving SD to her taekwondo classes (she took with her mom) which were almost an hour from where we live, when it was her dad's week. We also would go to her events whether she was with us or not. If her mom had her for her week and she had a taekwondo testing or tournament, we would go watch her. We sometimes drove a couple of hours. DH's parents would also go to those things too.

I would have a problem with any father that doesn't see his children the way he should. I don't see different standards. Parents should see their children on a regular basis. I'm not saying what that should be but if they agree to one thing, put it in writing (or a judge orders it) and then they don't show up and the kids are upset & disappointed (or worse, sitting there waiting/canceling other plans) then there is NO EXCUSE for a parent to do that to their child. NONE. If you don't want to have that much time, then don't make that agreement. If you don't want to be tied down to it, then leave it open and say "I'll call when I have time to see them" but it's is SO WRONG to have a child that is excited they are going to see their other parent and then when the other parent cancels or doesn't show up, it breaks their hearts. That's only my opinion and it's not directed at any specific situation, not even mine. I think that is how it should be in general with ALL parents.

iamommy, yes DD went to a clinic, actually two of her housemates took her because DD was too dizzy to walk alone. Doctor said it is a concussion and the only treatment is rest. DD was ordered to lie in bed not walking and not doing anything for two days and see if she still has symptoms. She had no symptoms after two days. there is no treatment for concussion, just rest. My mother was in a bad car accident and had a concussion, she was told to lie down and not walk for a day or two. It went away.

If SD did not feel dizzy and did not feel nauseaus then it probably is not that. You got to feel dizzy and usually vomiting when you have a concussion.

I just remembered something.

When DD was like 7, she hurt herself very bad on a play ground with me standing right there close to her! the way she remembered it was always very different from what really happened. she always inisted that the monkey bar fell on her. That's what she told to everyone including the doctor and the rest of the family. But nothing ever fell on her, it is not how she hurt herself.

What is funny is that we often remember that story due to some of the bad and funny experiences we had in the emergency room. We recently recalled that story again and DD said again: "can you imagine that huge monkey bar fell on me. i am surprised it didn't kill me." Hmmm Guess what, it never fell on her! Even though she knows what happened now, she still remebers how it fell on her!

Kids perceive things differently, or wrong, or confused.

She didn't mention anything about being dizzy. DH asked about her vision and she said she sees spots when she closes her eyes and opens them. I think that is a little normal as that happens to me too and I didn't hit my head.

Ima - I think SD's yanking your chain with her 'boo boos' to see how high you and DH will jump. She knows it's a hot button now and is testing her limits - basically, using it to manipulate you. It doesn't sound like she's figured out how to use it to get something she wants yet -- just exploring the power of it all.

I'd try to show a little less visible interest in her injuries. Listen, nod, smile. Maybe ask if she wants to go to the doctor -- hope they won't have to do a shot for that... But let the hypervigilence thing die down a bit. You want to be able to rely on her medical reports -- not to nurture a junior drama queen.

exactly sweeby. I agree.

I may have mentioned before that I thought her mom has munchausens or at least a hypochondriac. She constantly has arm/leg/wrist braces and lots of 'hairline' fractures, etc. She was well enough to go to taekwondo (the day after a lap surgery) to hang out with friends but "needed" DH to bring her some band aids for her lap surgery cut. Normally, SD doesn't mind going to the doctor for every little thing if she gets attention from it. She doesn't even mind getting shots. (She has to put a band aid on every scratch, even if it doesn't break the skin) I am pretty sure she didn't want to go this time because she probably knows if she goes to the hospital, her mom would be called. Maybe didn't want to make a big deal or thinks it will cause a fight between her parents or she doesn't want to get caught embellishing or some other reason. Who knows?

DH and I agreed that we were going to not ask her anything about her weekend or her fall. When she brought it up, I picked up that she might be playing it for some attention. DH was concerned that she really hit herself hard because it happened Friday and Sunday she says it still hurts but when I mention the hospital and she minimized it and didn't want to go that route, I figured she might be playing it up. She kept wanting to tell her story of how it happened though.

"it's is SO WRONG to have a child that is excited they are going to see their other parent and then when the other parent cancels or doesn't show up, it breaks their hearts"

I'm usually just a lurker here since my skids are grown and we don't have any issues but wanted to comment on this. When my DS came to live with me and my DH when he was 12 after living with his BD for a few years his dad had EOWE visitation. When it was his WE my son would stop whatever he was doing, get a bath and sit on the steps and wait for him. Dad never once showed up and after a few times DS didn't bother waiting anymore. After he got grown his dad decided he wanted something to do with him but he was out of luck. DS has no use for him. He's 33 now so I doubt he ever will. Do I feel sorry for him? Absolutely not ~ he did it to himself, now he can live with the consequences.

Reminds me of that song "Cats in the Cradle". That song makes me cry every time. (and I'm NOT a crier)