I'd get professional guidance from a therapist who's experienced in Munchausen's & the adoration that it seems to generate in the nearest & dearest.

It doesn't end with this mother creating scenarios (like a movie!) where she's the center of attention;

it affects the people closest to her, warping them forever.

As you said, the young ones adore her *& want to be like her*.

& that'll mess up their whole lives, giving them a distorted perception of what's real & making them susceptible to all the con artists in the world.

I wish all of you the best.

"Today, I had a talk with my SD's BM's BF's exwife. (no it's not a Jerry Springer situation) Anyways, I was seeing if she'd be interested in bringing her kids to SD's birthday party."

I would never do that to anyone (invite their current SO's X to bring a child to an event involving the mom's child) Not even if I asked them first. I think that can exacerbate an already difficult situation. Unless that person is your sister, I dont care how good a freind she is (the invitees mom).

Are you sure she isn't in an abusive relationship? i know you are talking about old injuries also, but there are women who go from one abusive relationship to another. I've seen it. They learn to lie constantly to hide the abuse. Constantly have to come up with new stories to explain this bruise that fracture, etc. The husbands/boyfriends not only physically abuse them but are controlling and isolate them from friends and family. Lets see, she meets this guy up and moves away from her home leaves her kids behind comes up with excuses after excuses why she can't see her own kids but he's got her acting like mommy to his. I don't have advice for you but it's a possibility you might want to consider. And if he is abusive i wouldn't necessarily rely on his ex to tell you about it, she may be just as invested in the lies as anyone else if he also abused her (embarrassed at letting it happen, afraid of him either for herself or her kids if she tells anyone, etc etc).

OH please, BM was throwing up for 2 weeks so hard she couldn't ever get to the phone? LMFAO. That right there is such a blatant lie you wouldn't have to go any further for me.

Sometimes you have to flush people out, even if it may seem out of line to the sensibilities of people like kkny. BM is playing a very nasty game there, and it should also be brought to the attention of the ball team that BM had neglected her duties as a parent in favor of coaching a ball team, while feigning illness. I doubt that is the kind of values they want instilled in their youngsters.

If BM wants to play ball, play ball with her--hard ball.

Quirk, I don't think her BF's abusive. She was single living with her mom for two and half years that I knew her before she moved with the BF. She was always bandaged, fractured, sprained, hurt or recovering from something. She apparently had a (lap) surgery about a week or two before she moved with her BF & she was having SD call DH to tell him she needed band aids. She never called him to say 'I'm having a surgery, would you keep SD?' or anything. She had SD call him several times to tell him she needed band aids (even though she lives with her mom who could have gotten her band aids). Before, I thought she was just trying to get DH's attention (maybe see if he still cared?) but after reading about munchausen's, she fits all of it. She's a nursing student (for five years), she's EMT certified, so she has a huge interest in the medical field. She tried for about a year (unsuccessfully) to get her daughter diagnosed ADHD. (took her for brain scan & when the therapist said she wasn't ADHD, BM said she needed a psychiatrist, not a 'moron' therapist) At the time, I figured she was just looking for an easy way to sedate her daughter because SD is a handful and energetic. But, living with her these last six months, she is in no way, ADHD.

And I do think it's terrible that a guy would let his new GF 'abandon' her own kids and then take over with his kids. He only gets his kids every other weekend and by volunteering to coach, she gets to see them several times a week at practice and every weekend for games. (apparently at the expense of her own kids) One thing that stands out a little was that since I've known her (three years), every time SD needs anything, clothes, shoes, school supplies, etc. she tells DH to go get it (which he did, not a problem). She has given her daughter hand me downs from her older daughter, but rarely would buy her anything new. But the mother of her BF's kids is upset because BM is taking her daughter shopping and buying her new shoes. I find it ironic that BM was upset that I was taking her daughter shopping and now she feels it's okay to take her BF's daughter shopping. IMO, it's not a big deal but I can understand how it bothers her. When it upset BM that I took her daughter shopping, I just thought she was jealous of me spending time with her daughter. After all, my son went shopping with his step mom and I didn't think anything about it. But, BM's BF's exW said she doesn't want her daughter to go anywhere alone with BM because she doesn't know her. I'm sure there is a little bit of jealousy (which I think is a natural feeling because shopping is a mother/daughter thing which is probably why it didn't bother me when it was my son. It might have bothered me to see my daughter shopping with another woman.)

and kkny, I was inviting her kids. It's a kids party, not an adult party. SD wants her kids there and it's her weekend to have them. I'm not 'friends' with her but we have gotten along on the phone and we both care about all the kids involved. She may or may not bring the kids. You are right that it may exacerbate things with BM, she wants to control everyone and she can't control this. I'm sure she doesn't want us talking to each other because then she will know that when she lies to DH and says she's too sick to see her daughter, there is someone that can tell him that she's really just busy trying to be 'mother of the year' to her BF's kids.

"As a mom, I don't know how you can do that. I know I sound like a broken record and I wish I could mentally let it go. I have actually lost sleep over this and I'm just tired. Yes, I know it's not my place to worry about it and it's DH's problem."

This is the hardest thing you can ever do. I can't tell you the number of nights I would sit up after DH went to bed and just stew and stew over the way BM would treat her daughter. How could she lie to her and disregard her feelings? How could she be so self absorbed and selfish? It was beyond my comprehension, and I would burn myself out trying to "get it" - how she could behave so badly, how SD could love her in spite of, how I could prevent SD from emulating her. My DH would always tell me that I couldn't change her, that she would never see the errors she was making and how she was harming her daughter. I refused to believe that, and would continue singlemindedly to fight for truth, justice and my SD's well-being.

You know what? DH was right. I wish I could tell you what finally clicked with me, but I realized I was spending all this time and energy trying to make a *good* parent out of someone who would never do the same for me. I think it had a lot to do with SD reaching an age where she can see some of what I had seen for so long and understand the wrongs. This alleviates my worry that she will emulate the behavior.

I think the other side of the coin is that I realized BM's life wasn't all sunshine and roses. It would really tick me off that she could lie to the courts, lie to her daughter, lie to her family and come out squeaky clean. She got to be the Disneyland parent and we got to be the 'bad guys'. She got to take 2 big vacations a year and pay next to nothing in child support while DH and I worked year round and took the family camping in the summer. She could go to the gym every night and then complain about being 'so out of shape' while I haven't seen a gym in years - unless her daughter was cheering inside it. All this, obviously, were my personal issues and had little to do with her treatment of her daughter, just what I felt were injustices. After she remarried and had a baby her 'my life is so perfect' facade began to crumble and suddenly I realized what an unhappy person she was, and that this unhappy person is who I would be if I continued on the same path I was traveling down - hating her and letting it consume me. All of a sudden I was able to look at her actions with less anger and more pity. I could see why she lied - the truth was not so pretty.

I don't know that any of this is helpful to you. The only thing I can really say is you have to find your moment of truth where you realize no amount of thinking, reasoning, pleading will change her. You have to be able to say it is her relationship with her daughter, and she can do with it what she wants. You have done your best to make it healthy, but that isn't your job. Did anyone clean up your 'messes' to make sure you did well with your kids?? I can tell you 9 is a hard time, but it is just on the brink where they start seeing things for what they are. Hang in there, be as consistent and possible and make NO excuses for BM. Call a spade a spade, but factually not emotionally. Our counselor told us it is fine to say "I understand why you feel badly that your mom doesn't want to go on trips with you unless she has a boyfriend to go, too. I would feel badly as well as I would like to spend one on one time with my mom." This is not putting mom down, but it's validating SD's feelings. Obviously, telling her that mom is a selfish, man-dependent twit would be another way, but he didn't like that one.

One more thought on the snubbing - think about when you come home from vacation where meals are cooked for you. Don't you want to snub your kitchen? It's the same for the kids - they go over there and have no responsibilities, bed times, respect requirements . . . . vacation! Then they go to their respective homes and it's back to real life. They can't understand quite yet why these things are necessary and life can't be like a vacation. The good news is they soon will though. And as they get older and harder to control while on 'vacation' the parents will see life can't work that way. . . . and call you to request a meeting to make their house more like yours. :-)

You do a great job, Ima. Chin up - a couple more years and things will get better. When it starts to become too much just think - would you want BM's life? Even if it meant the adoration of SD, would you want the rest??

we crossed posts . . . but your last one reminded me of something. BM is all about having the perfect family picture. By this I mean having a mommy and a daddy and some kids to complete it. I think this has a lot to do with why she always had to have a man and would push them onto SD by the 2nd date, telling her how they were going to be a happy family. Now I know some of it was a keeping up with the Jones' issue she has with our family, and some just a need to have a man for personal validation.

Could SD's BM be similar? That is why she needed band-aids and such from your DH - trying to keep him in the picture? Now she has a new man and he comes with kids already, so the picture is complete once she enters. SD isn't needed to fill the kid space anymore and someone else can get her band-aids.

Just a thought . . . .

"and some just a need to have a man for personal validation. "

On this board, the mom gets critized for having an SO or not.

Ima, I guess you are in-charge, but SDs mom is controlling? In the eye of the beholder. If SD wanted those kids there, why didnt you ask DH to tell X, to tell her SO? Do these children spend time at their Dad's?

Have you ever thought that maybe you are steamrolling over the mom, and it has a negative effect?

Is BM being criticized for having a SO? I thought she was being criticized for neglecting her own daughter and even lying about it, while trying to pretend that she is this great caring and involved parent to other parts of the world????

Why didn't BM just tell the truth.

No daughter I am not going to see you this weekend because I am coaching for my BF's sons' ball team and I would rather do that than see you.

No Colleen, here the mom is critized for having SO, on other theads for not moving on and finding a SO.

"Ima, I guess you are in-charge, but SDs mom is controlling? In the eye of the beholder. If SD wanted those kids there, why didnt you ask DH to tell X, to tell her SO? Do these children spend time at their Dad's?

Have you ever thought that maybe you are steamrolling over the mom, and it has a negative effect?"

Well, I am in charge of what I do. and yes, it bothers BM that she can't control what I do. She doesn't 'own' her child. She can have a party and include her BF's kids when they are at their dads house, which is this weekend and the weekend after her birthday. His kids are with their mom on the weekend I'm throwing SD her party. No, we don't 'have' to go through his ex to invite them to a party that we don't want the ex to be at. If his ex hadn't tried to start a fight with me, then say she doesn't want me on her property, and can't get along with me, then she isn't welcome at a party that I'm throwing. (even though I won't throw her out if she does show up) If DH wants to plan a party and invite her, then I would probably not go and do something for SD at a different time. He is taking SD out to dinner on her birthday because her mom 'can't make it' that day to see her. Hmmm, it just so happens she is coaching her BF's kids' game that day. She has her priorities though....

Is steamrolling over mom having the negative affect? or is her choosing to be a parent to her BF's kids instead of her own having a negative affect? I'm confused.

It is easy to understand why BM would be happier to coach the ball team. Instant gratification. All the other parents would watch and say "What a great person you are devoting all this time to children that aren't even your own. You must be a pretty special person."

With daughter, a continous and painful reminder of how you have failed as a mother, a woman, a parent. What a horrible person you must be.

Why didn't she take daughter with her to a place where people view her kindly instead of making up a lie about why she couldn't be there? Is that an option?

"No Colleen, here the mom is critized for having SO, on other theads for not moving on and finding a SO."

No, she's being criticized for leaving her kids behind, lying to get out of seeing them, and all the while, trying to take over with her BF's kids. I'll bet if the BF's kids mom was on here complaining about it, you wouldn't be defending BM. You can see her as BM to my SD (and therefore, she's right) or you can see her as dad's GF to his kids BM and overstepping boundaries that you seem to think is okay... Which is it KKNY? See anything wrong with this picture?

As usual you make no sense. On the one hand your are extremely critical of a dad who remarries and apparently shows more caring for his stepchildren, and ignores his children in the process, so you think. YET, in this case you are saying that mom ignoring and LYING to her daughter is within correct behavior because she has found a SO with children? HUH? What you talkin' about Willis?

"and some just a need to have a man for personal validation. "

You've lost me again, KK. Where in the world are you trying to take this one? Ima spelled it out above - which way is it?

Posted by kkny (My Page) on Sat, Mar 22, 08 at 13:39

"and some just a need to have a man for personal validation. "

Flesh that thought out a bit more kkny. As it stands it shows me you are feeling unvalidated because you don't have a man. AND, I would hate to judge you so prematurely;)

"I don't know that any of this is helpful to you. The only thing I can really say is you have to find your moment of truth where you realize no amount of thinking, reasoning, pleading will change her"

Yes, it is VERY helpful. I think when I heard she was out coaching her BF's kids' team and not calling her daughter and canceling visits with her daughter, it was a huge eye opener for me. Before that, I just told myself that she chose her BF over her kids and that she was more interested in a childless environment so she could be alone with the BF. Now, I know she is trying to be a 'family' with him & his kids and not her own. Now, I have reached that place where I know SD can see what's going on and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Thanks for your wisdom.

Although I agree with the majority of posters that mom here is being a selfish t*t, and not thinking at all about her daughter, I have to say that I find it a little bit creepy the way Ima and the moms boyfriends ex seem to get together to gossip about the mom and the boyfriend.

In a divorce situation, you are going to get differing stories of what happened, depending on who you talk to. People rewrite the history of the marriage, and the history of the breakup in their own minds, to make the other person into the villian. If you talked to my ex, you would hear a version of what happened to our marriage that would be totally different than what you would hear from me. Same with my husband and his ex. The stories wouldnt even be CLOSE to matching.

Talking with someones ex is a very poor way to get information, because its usually blindsided.

I would bet that if you talk to imas hubbys ex, and ima;s hubby, you would get different stories. Same between TOS husband and TOS. I KNOW my ex husband thinks I am evil incarnate, even though, imo, I have been more than good to him both during the marriage, and since it ended. In fact, in every situation there are bound to be vastly differing opinions of what the other person did or is doing wrong, that are at best blindsided.

As much as I sympathize with Ima's position here, I would caution her not to get her blood pressure up based on what someone else has told her. People do exaggerate. They do get dates mixed up. They do get perverse pleasure in running down an ex spouse or more often, their new partner. I am sure many of you have been the targets of ex wives who think you are horrible people, when they have no real reason to think that way.

It is possible that mom and/or boyfriend were indeed sick and then recovered. There are a million possibilities here,and there is no point jumping to the worst possible conclusion based on what someone else, who admittedly would have an axe to grind, says. Why not try thinking the best, even if you know the best probably isnt true? People do tend to live up to your expectations of them after a while. There is no independant confirmation of any of this, and sometimes...no FREQUENTLY, in a step situation, its better to take what the other person says at face value than to stew about what you believe is to be true. That will only take years off your life and make the problem worse.

Just my two cents worth

I understand where you are coming from Kathline, but we don't get together and gossip. We've never met face to face and have talked on the phone, maybe four or five times in the last few months. We do compare notes about what we are both being told by the children. DH has tried to talk to BM himself and gets told 'it's none of your business!' We don't even say a word about anything her BF's ex says... we do take it with a grain of salt. But saying that BM and BF were at a game last weekend isn't an exaggeration, just a fact. It wasn't so far in the past that she would be 'confused' about dates. BM has missed the last two weekends, which coincide with when their little league began. It could be jumping to conclusions or it could be common sense, but I think SD is even smart enough to figure it out.

We could take everything BM says at face value and give her the benefit of the doubt, but she's proven that just about everything she says has been a lie. I would be less likely to believe her BF's ex if she was being critical of BM or the BF. She hasn't bashed either one of them. She is worried about some of the same things that DH & I thought about before I ever even talked to her. She just confirms that those are her concerns too.

If people tend to live up to their expectations after a while, then it might give hope that she will live up to her daughter's expectations of her. We don't have any expectations of her, we are not the ones she's hurting. and if I want independent confirmation, I suppose I could hire an investigator or talk to some of the parents on the kids' team and dig deeper. We're not going to do that because it doesn't matter if we do, it's not going to change the fact that she didn't call her daughter for over two weeks and missed two weekends in a row. She wasn't in a hospital all that time. She didn't have a problem calling DH to tell him she can't make it, but she did call him while he was at work so he couldn't give the phone to SD. There are a million possibilities I suppose, but it's the actions that speak louder than words here.

I can't imagine my exH's current wife's exH's current wife calling me up to discuss anything. I agree with Kathline that it is creepy. It makes no difference whether it is face to face on on the phone. And calling more than once a month to compare notes?? I thought one conversation was weird enough. I don't see the difference between gossip and "compare notes about what we are both being told by the children."

I thought your ex's wife doesn't have any children TOS? Does she? We know you don't have any problem contacting anyone who might have a good tidbit of gossip for you about the exes wife. Man I hate hippocrites. Or the neighbors that let kkny know her exes girlfriend is hanging by the pool.

Yes, she does have several children. I have never contacted anyone who knows my exH's current wife - I don't know what you are talking about. Other than some of my kids and my exH, of course, I don't know anyone who has ever laid eyes on her.

I just love how they focus on what they perceive a SM is doing wrong, but neither address the facts of what BM is doing to her child. They also don't address the fact that even though she is BM to my SD, the shoe on the other foot is that she is also dad's GF that is overstepping the 'boundaries' with his kids, but no mention of that??? No comment ladies???

For that reason alone, I give no weight to your opinions or beliefs. Your focus is on your agenda to prove that a SM is wrong, the only problem is that what BM is doing as a SM/dad's GF is everything you think is wrong, yet you still focus on what you perceive that I'm doing wrong. Again, you have no credibility here.

and who cares if you think it's creepy TOS, I think it's creepy that you would take back an adulterous exH that has been remarried for many years and doesn't see his or support own kids like he should either. But, who am I to judge?

ima,

If your SD's mother were posting, I would probably have plenty to criticize her about, but she is not here. She has not solicited any opinions on this board, and she is not reading any of the responses.

So do you care that Kathline thinks it is creepy?

I haven't solicited YOUR opinion, yet it's being given. In fact, you are hereby relieved of offering ME your opinion on anything & everything. Feel free to share your opinions on other peoples posts or problems, but I have no use for your opinion.

and Kathline is entitled to her opinion on what she thinks is creepy or not. She at least offered some constructive element to this thread, whether I agree with it or not.

Creepy or not, it's the call of Ima and the other mother (too many letters to spell out there!) If they are happy to have the communication and someone else who shares their same concerns, then what business is it of ours? She didn't ask for advice or opinions on that. If they want to talk so be it - unless one of them thinks it's creepy then leave well enough alone.

Personally, I wish I could have talked to the ex of SD's BM's boyfriend back when SD still lived with BM. We might have found out the boyfriend was a felon who had done jail time much sooner had we been able to chat with her. We just heard that he had 'worked in corrections', which silly us took to mean he had worked in the system not made license plates!

ima,

By virtue of posting on this board, you ARE soliciting the opinions of everyone who posts here. This is not a private club. You can certainly feel free to ignore any opinions with which you do not agree, as does everyone else. I certainly feel free to ignore your opinions most of the time, though once in a great while we agree on something. Your SD's mother, has not, however, posted here as far as I can tell, so she has not solicited anyone's opinion, and offering it would be of no use, especially since she would never read it.

If Kathline "is entitled to her opinion on what she thinks is creepy or not," which she certainly is, then so am I. It is immature to respond to my agreement with her post by rudely saying, "and who cares if you think it's creepy TOS." If it is ok for one person to say something, then it is ok for another to make the same statement as well.

From the original post, this is what I said....

"If anyone has experience dealing with someone like that, even if there is no advice, I would like to know that we're not alone"

There is a specific topic to this thread and while you and your counterpart would like to take it off on a tangent about me talking to the other mom or whatever else your opinions are, if you can stick to the topic.. perhaps your opinion would be appreciated. All you have to offer is how you'd feel getting a call from whoever.. blah blah blah... but nothing you've said of any use to me. The purpose of posting here is for advice, you offer none. support, you offer none. opinion, you offer something irrelevant to the original post. You are entitled to think what you like, what is creepy or not. I'm entitled to think you are creepy. Sorry if it's rude for me to tell you I don't value your opinion. I don't necessarily agree with Kathline's opinion but she did offer input on the original post, not take it off on a tangent, like you were. I can at least respect that. I personally think you are rude to be so condescending and hypocritical all the time without offering anything of value. I'll admit, it's sometimes good for my daily laugh, but hardly taken seriously.

If you want to discuss SM's talking to their DH's ex's new partner's ex, then start a thread about it. That's not what this thread is about, nor is that what I want to get advice about. If I wanted advice about that, I would have asked. (by the way, there was another thread where I did ask for input on that very subject. If you want, you can find it and revive it) but this thread is about a child that is being ignored by her mom not calling and canceling visits while the mom is coaching her BF's kids teams.... It's also about the possibility of dealing with a mom that has munchausen's, which I think is much more serious than whether I have coffee or talk to her BF's exW. Those are the facts.

ima,

By virtue of posting on this board, you ARE soliciting the opinions of everyone who posts here. This is not a private club. You can certainly feel free to ignore any opinions with which you do not agree, as does everyone else. I certainly feel free to ignore your opinions most of the time, though once in a great while we agree on something. Your SD's mother, has not, however, posted here as far as I can tell, so she has not solicited anyone's opinion, and offering it would be of no use, especially since she would never read it.

If Kathline "is entitled to her opinion on what she thinks is creepy or not," which she certainly is, then so am I. It is immature to respond to my agreement with her post by rudely saying, "and who cares if you think it's creepy TOS." If it is ok for one person to say something, then it is ok for another to make the same statement as well.

I thought pathological meant they believe their own lies?

Not sure who it is ... sweeby or sylvia .. but one of them has a little ditty ...

About getting free rent in your head.

Just do what you think is best for you and your family ... assume she is not going to hold up her end of the agreement doesn't matter what the agreement is ... then you can't be pissed if she doesn't show ... expect nothing and you will not be disappointed.

Switch your date night to Saturday... assume your SD will be with you on friday nights ... have hubby call her and tell her directly if you are not here by ________ (pick a time) then her visitation is cancelled you will not be waiting for her to show up when its convienent for her to fit her child into her schedule.

Have him explain to your SD ... that mom's job is erratic so you don't know for sure if she can make it or not... blame something other than mom.... when and if you go back to court ... have the day changed to saturday morning 10 am this way SD can have sleepovers at friends or whatever.