Oh God do we! We have begged and pleaded with BM for YEARS to please discuss things with us before discussing them with SD. This has presented us with several problems - one being that we do often end up being the bad guy. BM doesn't concern herself much with the daily child raising things, so when we have to be the one to put the lid on the fun plans because of a science fair project due the next day we are the bad guys - not mom for telling SD she would take her shopping on a non visitation day. Had mom talked with us first we could have filled her in, saved SD the disappointment and arranged for something another night.
The other side that was a real problem is mom's habit of telling SD to tell us of a deviation in the schedule, i.e.; tell Dad and JNM that I am working late and will pick up up at 8:00 rather than 5:00 as per the parenting arrangement. Are we crazy to think she should be talking directly to us and asking if if would be okay for SD to stay until 8:00? Could we not have made plans on a Friday night based on SD leaving at 5:00 which would be ruined by this? We have cancelled or changed plans a HUNDRED times to accommodate her last minute, relayed through SD plans - even cancelling weekend trips with reservations made.

It is written in to the parenting plan that the child will not be used as a messenger. When this has been pointed out to BM it's fallen on deaf ears. Finally we put in an email that no deviations to the parenting plan (and ours is very specific) would be honored (absent emergencies) unless communicated 24 hours in advance from BM to DH or I directly. It took one day of her telling SD that she would be late and us not being there when she showed up for her to "get it." It wasn't until these last couple months that she has begun to change her ways. She actually called Sunday night to discuss Monday plans and we had a lovely chat.

This of course doesn't prevent her from telling SD of plans that she never intends on honoring as *your* BM does, but I don't think you can stop her. If she doesn't have the good sense to see the harm she is doing you can't give it to her. I think *my* BM used to tell SD things like this because she enjoyed the excitement id created with SD - it made her feel good to know SD was excited to see her. BM is a needy person, and when she didn't have a man in her life we could see a difference in the way she treated - needed - SD. I hope *your* Bm isn't the same.

The bm we deal with is like that too. She has been mentioning to the kids for months about going to visit her out of state this summer, but it is almost April and not a word to us! Last year the bm was planning on coming to our state for a day to do who only knows what. Anyways she never told us, just told the kids she had a suprise for them on such and such day. The oldest said she thought her mom was taking them that day. We had to call grandparents (no working # for bm at the time) and find out from them her plans. When she lived in state she would not pick up the kids at the agreed upon times or days and not call. It was just ridiculous! One of the last times she was not at our house on her day and time I got aggrevated because we waited around for hours! I called my friend and scheduled a sleepover with the girls at her house. I brought them there. BM showed up later and I had ss playing at a neighbors house and sd's at a sleepover. Told her sorry, when you did not show or call we assumed you were not coming so the kids went out with friends. They will be home tomorrow at such and such a time. She tried to argue and say she would just go pick up the kids. Then I told her that sd's friend lived 45 minutes the opposite way of her house. Then she agreed to wait till the next day! Funny how she was at our house exactly on time the following day!

My friend had a similar situation to your with her kids bd. He would tell her young children when he was going to be there or on what day, never her. He was also late many times. So finally she began sticking by the parenting agreement. After his designated pick up time she would take the kids to run errands. If he came while she was gone she would make him wait quite a while, or tell him sorry you should have been here on time we have plans now.

He got the point soon after!

With your situation I would have dh e-mail or call bm and tell her that she is to pick up the children at the time stated in her parenting agreement. All changes need to go through an adult 24 hours in advance. If she does not communicate to you or dh any changes then do not be around when it passes the pick-up time. And do not allow her to pick-up late. She can miss her visitation that time altogether. After a few times of missing her kids and being inconvenienced herself she may realize that she has to communicate!

Empower the kids ... tell them over and over .... mommy said ... your answer is ... well have mommy call daddy and tell him unless daddy tells me I am not waiting for mommy ... mommy says ... you tell mommy you are just a kid and will not remember all that she should call daddy ... it took over 6 months of repeating it almost daily for them to feel "strong enough" to repeat it to their mother. I would say things like ... well mommy needs to have consideration for me and daddy ... how would she like it if she showed up here and you guys weren't here? if she doesn't tell daddy when she is coming we don't know so we make plans ... mommy needs to talk to daddy about stuff like that.

After almost a year of mom would calling and "telling" of changes hubby would say would you do it for me? she finally got the message after months and months... if you won't do it for me why should I do it for you ... mom would say things like ... why should I do you any favors ... so hubby started answering her questions with why should I do you any favors and "take me to court" ....

We now have exact days and times for every day of the year Today is the first change in 3 months. Instead of taking them today she is taking them tomorrow. And she gave 2 weeks notice of change.

In dealing with my exhusband , concerning all issues dealing with the children, I have found it necessary to communicate in email. Whenever x and I talk on the phone, somehow he either manages to "forget" the things we agree on, or adds in things that were never discussed. It was frustrating, to say the least. I could never count on anything he agreed to , actually taking place.

With my husbands ex, dealing with all issues concerning the kids. With her, she would not only "forget" the conversation, she occasionally would deny it ever took place. She also had a tendency to embellish details and claim things were said that were not. For example, on one occasion, my husband and his ex were discussing his daughters poor school performance, and my husband made a comment about how the daughter had a different relationship with him than he has with mom. Mom immediately started screaming how dare you say your relationship is better!! Thats NOt what hubby said, but thats what ex heard. She has a tendency to filter conversations to fit her own preconceived ideas.

She refused to use email, so now all communication is done through her husband and my husband emailing back and forth. All phone calls between hubby and ex are now recorded. We have learned the hard way that her reality is not reality.

I would suggest recording the calls if they are legal in your state ( to protect you in the future if necessary), and making all arrangements via email ( and keeping copies)

Oh my GAWD - I had no idea our husband's were both married to the same woman!

Honestly - so many things you wrote - "She also had a tendency to embellish details and claim things were said that were not. She has a tendency to filter conversations to fit her own preconceived ideas. All phone calls between hubby and ex are now recorded. We have learned the hard way that her reality is not reality." - these all could have been written by me about my Dh's ex. It is scary and sad, but I find some comfort in knowing *my* BM is not the only one like this out there.

We also record and catalog all conversations, and try to do as much as possible via email. BM has finally decided she likes email so it has worked pretty well - there have been numerous occasions we have been able to forward a past email to you for verification that something was discussed/agreed to. I can't begin to tell you how beneficial the recorded conversations were when we went to court over custody. It does go a long way toward one's credibility when they swear something never happened and are then heard on tape crying about how horrible it was when that very thing that *didn't* happen did.

**disclaimer: This is NOT intended to be legal advice, but is only my personal opinion. I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY.

I personally would record all conversations. I don't know whether it's legal or not. I'm not sure if it's illegal to record calls in any state, but they may not be admissible in court if not recorded 'legally'. However, they may become admissible if they are used in rebuttal to admissible testimony. (ie. mom says she's never told dad something, but you have her on tape saying it. You might not be able to introduce the tape as evidence until she denies she said it.) I seem to recall from a class I took that inadmissible evidence can be admitted if the other person 'opens the door' to that issue and it can be used as a rebuttal or to discredit given testimony.

Each person would have to check with the laws in their state or consult an attorney for clarification.

I wish we could use email, she isn't 'tech savvy' and as far as I know still doesn't own a computer.

Cawfe - we've tried to empower them to that she needs to call Daddy but the problem is when she has them do all the communique and they are 'visiting' they get the blow back for 'mouthing off' to their mother for suggesting she call herself.

Its funny you mention recording conversations - that was the final kicker in custody trail - DH had recorded her going ballistic around the kids (and a phone call with the neighbor soon after). Once the judge heard the tape it was over...

ima,

It is illegal to record phone calls without the consent of all parties in California. Not being admissible in court would be the least of the recording party's problems - he or she could be subject to criminal prosecution and a civil law suit.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/california/california-recording-law

Guess its a good thing I don't live in California. :-)

Notification of all parties is also the law in Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/recording-phone-calls-and-conversations

In Louisiana, Arkansas, and all the Canadian provinces, one party to the conversation must be aware it is being recorded. For example, husband can tape his conversations with his ex wife, but cannot tape his childrens conversations with their mother

"California law does not allow tape recording of telephone calls unless all parties to the conversation consent (California Penal Code 632), or they are notified of the recording by a distinct "beep tone" warning (CPUC General Order 107-B(II)(A)(5)). However, tape recordings can legally be made if an individual or members of one's family are threatened with kidnapping, extortion, bribery or another felony involving violence. The person receiving the threats can make a tape recording without informing the other party. (California Penal Code 633.5)"

Theotherside, I said personally I would record all conversations. That includes ones that are in person, which there is no law against. According to the laws that prevent wiretapping, it's perfectly legal to record as long as you tell them you are recording or use a recording device that beeps. I would still record the conversations. I don't care if they know it's being recorded. Heck, it might make them think about the lies they tell before they tell them.

Hehe I recall BM stating 'F**ing record me, see if I F**ing care, then everyone can hear what a (*&^)(*&(*! you are'

...yeah that backfired.

"**disclaimer: This is NOT intended to be legal advice, but is only my personal opinion. I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY."

Awww...but I wanted to hire you ;D

We are luckily in a state which allows recording with one party knowledge, exactly as Kathline explained. We can not tape a face to face conversation without mutual knowledge though.

Sieryn, pre email days we sent everything registered mail or UPS. It was a bit of a pain, but we had proof it was received. We would usually get a screaming call soon afterward . . . recorded, of course.

I pay $5.20 every time something is sent to BM that she 'needs' to get, such as her copies of SD's medical bills and copies of school work, bulletins or notices, like her school conference notice. She denies she is getting them if we don't.

Of course, when I sent them (medical bills) registered, return receipt, then she said she isn't paying them because she hasn't gotten child support in six months. That would be the same six months SD has lived with US and she should be paying DH.

"California makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation. See Cal. Penal Code 632. The statute applies to "confidential communications" -- i.e., conversations in which the participants have an expectation of privacy."

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/california/california-recording-law

According to that source, it would be illegal to record private face-to-face conversations as well.

Why would someone even talk to someone with whom they had an adversarial relationship if they knew it was being recorded?

It specifically states that recording requires the consent of all parties, not just the knowledge.

If you are not doing anything "wrong" why would anyone care if they are being recorded????

Hubby has a CO neither party discuss any litigation visitation issues child support with the children ...

We kept a log of every conversation ... what the kids said when they came home... you name it it was written down ...

TOS ... I do not understand why you think its ok to put your children in the middle they have enough to worry about being kids they do not need to worry about their parent if the parent had cancer would you be telling them every detail that went along with treatment or would you try to shield them from the pain....
Divorce is tough on children no doubt but mix in a bitter parent who is hell bent on destroying the other ... what does that do to a child? there is no excuse for telling your children everything they need to be able to enjoy being a child. Most children of divorce have to grow up fast but when you bash the other parent you take that childhood away. It makes them grow up faster.

I thought part of being a parent was protecting your children.

Give your oldest a notebook ... write on the cover "parent communication" ... and write a little blurb inside ... any changes should be written in here ... this way there are not mixups ... etc. etc. put the date ... use it for example say one of them is on an antibiotic and she will need to know when it was last taken ..... like they do with schools... class picture day is tues ... do you have his "white shirt"...

Cawfe, because in some states recording is against the law. That is good enough reason for me.

then you must be hiding something

IMA, Does your school have Edline?You can get all grades, teacher comments, homework assignments, conference notices? Dhs Ex stopped freely giving report cards after he met me (to cause confrontations when he had to beg for it I guess)This has been a Godsend....Every day when he logs on, he can see exactly what his son is doing in school, turning in homework etc...Check if your school has it, if you re not already signed on for it.....

Yah happens all the time with us and is still happening. I blame both bioparents cause they do it all the time to the kids. They are now 10 and 13. Bioparents hate one another and use the kids as mediators in talking. I hate it and it puts alot of stress on the SD especially. She is quite jaded these days and is angry. She spoke to me about it once and i told her , 'your old enough now to tell them to speak to one another. Your not a gopher to either one of your parents.' She has hit her teens. So there are pleasant days and other days not so pleasant. When she is moody i just stay out of her way and do my own thing now. But from what i can see, the damage is done .
The biomom kept getting her involved. Sure, my DH does do it seldom , by giving a message to daughter and then she relays it to mom. But i told him off and said, you have to talk or at least send emails if you dont want to hear her voice. But stop involving your daughter. She's not an adult!
Anyways, you did the right thing to say what you said to him. You may look liek a meany but keep doing the same thing. Talk must be between the bioparents and if they dont communicate properly, then too bad. You go ahead with your plans and she will have to talk to you DH.

so cawfe you think that only people who have something to hide object illegal recording of conversation? and you don't think that people have anything to hide if let's say they protect intimate information about their children or anybody else in the family?

Examples: something important that pertains to our DD and she didn't authorize for anyone else to discuss but me and her dad, if I and X discuss it should we be OK with the thrid party recording it?

something pertaining to my health that i want to only share with my family should I be OK that third party is recording it?

If i want to discuss something private with my exH about DD should it be OK for SM to record it illegally without my concent? etc

Yes all of us have some information that we want to remain private and only intended to specific people's ears. You can call it hiding but don't you think some info is intended to remain private?

Well, I'm going to assume, if at the beginning of the conversation, I say "this conversation is going to be recorded" and if they don't hang up, they are thereby consenting to being recorded, unless they say "I refuse to be recorded." whereby, I would say 'then email me' and hang up. They don't have to have their conversation recorded and I don't have to have a conversation if I don't want to have an unrecorded conversation. Both sides have that right.

As far as face to face conversations, same thing. If they are aware of the recording at the beginning, it's not illegal. If they don't consent, they can say so or leave. If it's in a public place, then there is no expectation of privacy. If they are in your living room or other private place where they don't expect to be heard, then there might be an expectation of privacy.

BTW, you are being recorded dozens of times a day.... when you go to the store. When you go to the bank. When you are driving down the road. There are cameras everywhere. There are recording devices all over in public so you don't need a persons' consent in public.

and Dotz, I'm not sure if the school has Edline. I don't think so since I've never heard of it. I don't send her information because she complains about not getting it. She has missed both school conferences this year, has only met the teacher on SD's first day (because we met her there) and doesn't ask about SD's life, let alone how she's doing in school. The reason we send her these things is because she has started to threaten him to go back to court because she wants him to sign custody back over to her, which he won't. When she's served with child support papers, the expected response is for her to file for custody. Even though she's not interested in her daughter's life now, we don't want her to be able to go into court and say we haven't been informing her of anything. (In my opinion, she should be informing herself)

and for messengers: Yesterday my SD asked if she can have a play date on Friday with a friend. I told her I don't know what time mommy is picking you up, we'll see. SD asks me, can I call my mom to find out? and I told her, I'll find out, it's not your job to ask your mom, that's between mommy & daddy.

However, BM will tell SD what her plans are before talking to DH. She will also tell SD 'ask your dad' things, like when she wanted him to buy something for SD or BM needed money, or switching weekends or changing times. She openly discusses everything with SD, including the court proceedings. During the custody battle, SD would have an attitude towards us and ask 'why are you trying to take me away from my mom?' and 'are you going to tell the judge ____?'

I am not going to discuss my personal issues with my ex so what do I care if he records it.

There's a big difference between a parent not recalling what they said and denying they even said it... like I'll be there at ....not recording conversations between parent and child ... two adults...

Don't use the children as a messenger and you won't have to worry about being recorded.

when i am shopping or being at the bank I don't discuss anything family realted or private. But when i talk to a family in a private setting I expect it to remain private. when I discuss something with X (who is my DD's family) I expect it to be private and I would object to SM or his GF to record it. not like she ever would...

But if my X say: our conversation is going to be recorded...if my X would tell me he records our conversation i would think he officially lost his mind and needs to go on medication becauise it just doesn't sound normal.

As about me recording him...Even if he doesn't see DD as much as I think he should or just doesn't call as often or some other way violates my standards of involvement in child's life, I still can't imagine saying "i am going to record our conversation", it just sounds nasty.

"But when i talk to a family in a private setting I expect it to remain private."

ABSOLUTELY. That would be private. If you are standing on the street talking, anybody passing by can hear... no expectation of privacy.

and if your ex told you that he was going to do something, then didn't do it and you asked him why didn't you do it and he said, "I never said that", would you just say, "oh, I guess I misunderstood."? Maybe a few times but eventually, you might want proof if it was an all the time occurrence. You might be dealing with someone that does what he says and doesn't make up lies to you. We are dealing with someone that says one thing and later denies the conversation took place.

"Why would someone even talk to someone with whom they had an adversarial relationship if they knew it was being recorded?"

Because of her frame of mind - She still thinks she did no wrong, she doesn't have a drinking problem, we bribed the judge, cps, her neighbors etc.. to 'steal' her kids away from her just because DH is 'spiteful' not because he actually wants his kids...its all really ridiculous. Actually the pattern was she would drink until she was 'black out' drunk start WW3 with us (regardless of what house the kids were at) and then in the morning act like it never happened because she didn't even remember calling us once let alone fifty times!

Well today was interesting - the boys spend the night at their mothers last night. We only had one situation - I guess she told them to pick up their room and they decided to have a pillow fight - so she got in the car and left! SS11 called me freaking out that he didn't know where she was, so I had DH call her and supposedly she went 'around the corner to walgreens' to 'teach them a lesson' for not listening to her. How that works? I don't know. Anyway today rolls around - she's supposed to have the boys to my house by 11 am. I have to take the baby to the doctor at 11:30 and have various arrands and appointments for the rest of the day. SS11 calls at 9:30 to tell me, BM called in sick to work (lol DH had joked that this would happen the night before) so they would be staying later at her house and she would drop them off at home by 2. I told him 'that will not work for us as I will not be here tell your mother if she wants to make plans then she needs to call your father.' So I call DH and tell him he needs to work it out with BM - he says he's in a meeting and doesn't have time, and since I'm the one who will be receiving the kids then I need to make the arrangements [I so do not agree with this! As long as they are courteous to my schedule the communique should be between them.] So while I'm on the phone with him SS11 calls back -- reiterates the same message. I said 'put your mother on the phone'. So................... I gave her this big speech about not involving the children in scheduling, and made arrangements to receive the kids today. She was actually civil and receptive. Now I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop...

sieryn,

I completely agree that your H, not you, needs to work out the arrangements with his wife. What would he have done had you refused to make the arrangements?

cawfecup,
Wanting to ensure privacy has nothing to do with having anything to hide. I don't want some random person seeing what books I checked out of the library. On one occasion, the school accidentally sent me some other child's special ed paperwork. I thought that was horrible. I wouldn't want them sending my child's paperwork to someone else - it is private, but doesn't mean I or my child have anything to hide.

BTW, Cawfecup, in Masschusetts the law is even more restrictive than in California:

"From this case, it is clear that you can violate the statute by secretly recording, even when you are in a public place."

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/massachusetts/massachusetts-recording-law

"I completely agree that your H, not you, needs to work out the arrangements with his wife. What would he have done had you refused to make the arrangements?"

TOS, tomorrow DH is going to work, just like he does every day. BM is supposed to pick up SD at 2 but she arranged with DH to pick her up at 11:15. SD will be home with me & I have to get work done. I've agreed to wait until 11:15, even though it's almost half my work day. I'd love to know what your protocol would be if BM decides she's going to be late and expects me to wait around for her? DH can't leave work and I can't wait around all day.

The last time BM made an arrangement with DH and then at the last minute, sent me a text that she was three hours late, which meant she didn't leave until around the time she was supposed to be here. She threw a fit because I wouldn't wait for her all day. She knows I have to work but takes her time and ignores the arrangements she makes with DH.

I'm just curious as to your perspective?

Ima, in the case you described above and since BM has shafted you before , tellyour DH to make other arrangments that do not include you, so you dont miss out work.
Is that possible? Cause if i was kept waiting all time by anyone, i would simply say no next time. Tell your dh to get a baby sitter for the extended time and then give the bill to BM. Or get your husband to be there for pick up time. How old is your SD?

I agree with organic_maria on this. Your H should be dealing with this.

If the NCP (or CP) doesn't pick up the child within a reasonable time after he or she was supposed to (I guess in some places reasonable=half an hour, but I suppose that is negotiable. Leaving at 11:16 as she was driving down the street to your house would be a little extreme), you should leave. Your H should figure out what to do with his daughter, other than leaving her all alone of course.

" You might be dealing with someone that does what he says and doesn't make up lies to you. We are dealing with someone that says one thing and later denies the conversation took place. "

oh I wish. Oh if you would only know how X is. My X is known for promising and not doing or doing it the wrong way. His whole life. DD figured out how to deal with it. She tells him wrong dates, for example if tuition is due on the 15th of the month, she tells him it is due on the 1st so when he actually sends it it is let's say the 5th, so she isn't late. haha My DD almost was unable to start college on time because he was supposed to send a specific paper to us and one the day when paper was supposed to arrive I called him and his reply was: oh I thought I have another two weeks. I was hysterical on the phone. His reply: what are you so upset about? it gets there late, so what? haha
Or how about him telling me dates when DD goes to him, me arranging everything and he would say" oh oops, wrong days, i didn't look at the right month on the calendar

DD is 20, I dealt with it her whole life. We have learned that we cannot change him and figured our own ways to go about it (give him wrong due and dead lines so when it does happen it is still not late lol)

I still do not condone hostility between X-spouses, I still believe in civility and recodrings are not civil in my opinion. you think kids don't know when parents are hostile, they do. Since I got divorced I had only one argument with X in DD's presense (when he didn't send right papers and jepardized DD"s college admission), I argued on the phone. later i found DD crying in her room and being upset with me and dad why can't we work as a team. It happened one time and I felt bad about it. I would feel horrible if I would be recording his promices or having arguments all the time.

he pissed me off endless number of times believe me, I remain civil for only reason: for the sake of DD. Other than that I would most certainly forget all civility with him.

Personnally ... I wouldn't record so the situation really doesn't apply to me ... but you can bet if I had sieryn's ex calling me 50 times ... I would have traced the phone calls and let the phone company deal with her ... and I might have recorded those calls. Just to prove to her what an a$$ she is when she is drunk.

I keep a log we have a book we "doodle" in when we are talking to mom because you never know what she might say is important or not so we just jot stuff down and sort it out later.

There are laws about harrassing phone calls ... there is a law to cover just about anything...

More than 3 unwanted phone calls a day from the same number in mass is deemed illegal and the phone company in mass has to pursue then for harassing phone calls. All you have to do is after the call has ended punch in a #87 I believe and the phone company traces the calls.

Even laws for defiant children... if your child is doing something you don't like you can have them removed from your home in mass. So stop citing case law on everything.

Laws do not stop people from doing what they want to do when they want to do it. Laws only punish after the fact.

IMA ... anyway you could get hubby to reverse the situation on BM ... like if she is late on friday getting her ... picking her up the same amount of lateness on sunday? or calling her and saying I can't make it sunday I'll pick her up monday?.... she needs to be inconvienced same as you are.

Cawfe,

Thanks for the heads up. Have to check my state. So maybe next time Dads SO gets in a drunken stupor and starts calling me hanging up and wining I have options.

the only problem with incoveniencing the other parent is that it also incoveniences the child who is the innocent party here. it only works if incoveniencing the other parent actually benefits the child. so that's why it is so complicated to deal with exes when there are children involved. i bet you so many of us wouldn't ever talk to our exes at all if not the children.

On many ocassions I had to agree with X inconvinient time frames and let him pick up DD at wrong times because otherwise DD would not be able to see her dad. Sometimes we have to suffer for the children's sake. I had to do A LOT of those sacrificies and accommodations even when all I wanted to do is to pick up that lamp and aim at X lol

Fine ... thats the point ... if its all one sided ... after awhile you start to feel used.... and you have to ask yourself .. would they do it for me? What gives someone else more power in a relationship than you ? because we let them.... relationships should be equal one should not be doing all the work if one is doing all the work then there is no relationship. Whether is and ex relationship or joint.... it has to be mutual for the sake of the children.

When all parties realize that its much easier.

I think IMA is in the same boat with me ... she doesn't mind helping out hubby ... but when it helps the ex ... we feel used.... its a double standard... they (BM's) want to prove they are the one in control even in situations they have no control .... If I or IMA decide to take the children and do whatever and not be at BM's beck and call what is she going to do??? that's right call hubby!!! so why don't they call hubby in the first place ... if we weren't here .... would they call hubby every time and say oh I can't make it ... hubby would have to get out of work to accomodate each time .. .how many times would that happen before hubby stood up for himself and said look no this is what needs to be done!!!

I put it back on hubby when I would get frustrated with her and it go no where because he was sick of dealing with her.... but when she got on my nerves I would tell her talki to him talk to him talk to him. He would say talk to her talk to her .... well if I am "making" the rules this is how it will be or you two can deal with each other.

I also believe that BM realized that when it comes to the children .... she will have to work to pay support and hubby needs to work to support the children... that I will be the one with the flexibility to adjust any work schedule around the children .... so lets say she starts work tomorrow ... the schedule with the kids will need to be adjusted and it will effect me and the kids not just her... it will not effect hubby because his hours will not adjust around her schedule.

KKNY: are you saying the BM in Sieryn's situation is justified in calling 50 times or are you saying great I have way to get back at that woman!!! ... confused...

If she is calling you that many times per day when hammered then go right ahead. Do what you gotta do.

If my phone never rang again that would be too soon. I hate being on the phone.

Maria & TOS,

The order says she's to pick her up from school at 2pm (when school lets out) and on non school days (she's on spring break this week) it's still 2pm from our home. DH would have to miss a day of work and since I work for myself, I have the flexibility. I can arrange to be here when she says she'll be here. It doesn't matter what time she says, she's always late. If we have to do the exchange with DH home, it would be on Fridays at 7pm. Then she wouldn't get home with SD until 10pm (assuming she actually gets her on time). I don't have a problem with him making BM wait until he gets home, but I thought it would be better for her to take her early in the day so she (SD) could have a more enjoyable evening because she'd be back to her moms by the afternoon. (also, if we changed it to the evening time when DH is home, it would still affect our plans because we usually go out to dinner on Friday nights when SD isn't here... it's our 'date night')

and Finedreams, I agree that there shouldn't be arguments or hostility. One of the things that BM did (speaking about having her pick up SD when DH is home), she told him that she was picking her up at 8:30pm. Then she showed up at 6:30pm and SD wasn't ready. She was openly annoyed with us (making rude comments in front of SD) because she wasn't ready. The following week, she said she'd be here at 6:30pm and didn't get here until 9pm. When DH asked her why she wasn't here at 6:30, she called him a liar and said she never told him that. He didn't argue with her, later, he told her in an email they were going to stick to the order. She yells at him because he is not being accommodating enough. As for civility, BM yells at me in front of SD, says nasty things about both me & DH to her when she visits (SD tells us some of the things her mom says) and we tell her 'I'm sorry your mom feels that way'. We have never said a negative thing about her to SD. The only time I've ever said ANYTHING that could be interpreted as hostile, is when BM was accusing me of abusing SD with peanut butter and oatmeal, I raised my voice and told her if she thinks I'm abusing her daughter, to call CPS. (and to hear her tell how it went, she says I started it and that I attacked her: a recording would cover my ass if she decided to make a police report or any other official report) Obviously, SD knows there's hostility because BM discusses everything with her, including how she hates me. (She's even shared letters BM's exBF sent her after they broke up, so it's not limited to the problems she has with DH or me)

Your exH sounds absent minded or very busy and forgetful. He doesn't sound like he's trying to stir up problems between you just because he wants to frustrate you. I didn't think BM would be so immature. When I met her at first, she seemed very responsible and loving toward her kids, I never imagined that I would be primary caregiver to her child... she presented herself out as 'super'mom. The last thing I ever expected was that she would turn out to be a habitual liar, master manipulator, and deadbeat parent. (and she is a deadbeat when she tells us that she doesn't need to pay support, she thinks if she doesn't make DH pay her, it's the same as her paying... she told him that he could use the money he would be sending her to pay for SD's expenses) I wish we had THAT on tape for the court to hear. (when we were in court, she csme across as she did when I met her, very nice & sweet. You would never believe she could say or do some of the things she has said or done, recording it would change it from a he said/she said very quickly.)

my X speaks before he thinks and he also wants to be good to everybody that's why he says "yes" without thinking. but he also isn't considerate of other people feelings, he rarely understands why others are upset over his promises or his decisions. he is the kind of person who never argues, never is angry and never upset, happy go lucky, gets along with everybody, he does things that upset everyone else but his reply is always: why are you upset? what is the big deal? you can't have an argument with people like that, which is even more frutstrating, no, he doesn't do it deliberatelly, but it is not less frustrating. when DD was little it was a very big problem because he would never keep promices and then would say: it never happened. oh believe me it was hard when she was younger. but I tried very hard to let it go every time for DD's sake. i also have to say I was lucky that SM never interfered, never, all of it was between us. picking up, dropping off, babysitting, school events, CS all between us. it was enough to deal with him, i would not want any of his women in the middle.

Now when she is away to college all of their communication is between them, so i am not in the middle. I do talk to my X, but I don't orchestrate anything and it is SO much easier. Much less stress on me.

it might have been a little less stressful if one of his women would have made sure that what he said was going to happen, actually did happen. (like nagging him to get those papers to you on time, etc.)

Personally, it would be nice if BM's new BF would tell her she needs to call her daughter every night or push her to stick to the order. (and if he does say that to her and she ignores him too, then I'd think she's a worse parent than I already think)

I would agree that if a new SO or spouse interfere's by trying to make things harder or complicated between the parents, they should stay out of it. But, if they are adding a positive influence by encouraging the parents to get along or do what's best for the children, then it's not a bad thing.

every night? it might be too excessive because if she lives with dad she is probably busy at night and mom's daily phone calls might interrupt the routine of the family. I never expected dad to call daily. it is not like SD lives in a foster home, she lives with dad so daily phone calls from the other parent might not be necessary. every other day? few times a week? maybe if you set such high expectations of the other parent, then you have more disappointments, i doubt any NCP calls every day.

i even think somebody mention that daily phone calls interfer with custody or visitations rights.

I don't have any expectations of BM, her daughter does. I'm not the one that's disappointed, she is. A parent should be able to call their child and say goodnight every night if they wish. Long phone calls or calls during dinner might be bothersome, but if the bedtime is 8:30 and the call goodnight is at 8:25 every night, it wouldn't interfere. When my son was at his dads, I would call him every Tues, Wed, & Thurs. and I had to have the court set the time (7-7:15pm) to get my calls. I never kept him on the phone more than ten minutes, just to let him know I love him and see how his day was. I think it's unreasonable for an NCP to feel they can call whenever they want and expect the CP or child to drop what they are doing, it should be convenient to the child but the parent should also have the right to talk to their child daily if they want. Likewise, a child should be allowed (and able) to reach their parent (meaning the parent should not avoid the child's calls)