Some of the things that you are talking about seem very normal for a teenage boy like not wanting to talk to any kind of parental figure especially about current events and the rolling of the eyes... that is a pretty common one.

My first rule for me and my home is I dont really care who you are whose kid you are or are not everyone pitches in and everyone follows the same rules or everyone is subject to the same consequences. (even visiting neighbor kids... I have been known to make the whole bunch rake leaves or say ten nice things to each other or whatever other punishement fit the crime at the time)

You dont have to be a totalitarian to get things done in your home... Just talk to the kid... say these are the things I expect you to do ... its part and parcel or being a family and I do consider you family. (You can if you believe in such things offer an allowance as part of the deal allwance depends on chores homework grades or whatever)

But, at least with my kids and "my kids" that I have tutored and worked with in other functions other than a family... I have always found what worked best for me was being my completely wacked out self at the most random times. Like after I said clean up the living room and all are grumbling I blare some really cheesy music singing and dancing the whole time (with no care as to how really stupid I look) if nothing else it cracks a smile and allows some tension to release and you can even be exagerrate and OH MY GOD THERE IS A SMILE.... I KNEW IT...PEOPLE SAID I WAS CRAZY BUT I WAS SURE OF IT. and if you really want to encourage talking at the table try some light banter... like "so how was your day?" "Fine" Me? Oh I am so glad you asked my day was crazy first I had to get this huge ball of nastiness out of the tub drain I mean it was all clogged up and I swear it could have been a cat ... you havent misplaced a cat or anything have you?...Oh, well anyways later I had to.."

Try lightening up the situation... be happy go lucky and allow him to shake his head and walk away if he wants... btu at least you are breaking the tension and just let it go... and pull out the tension breaking craziness a different day... one day you will catch him at the right time and tada.. smiling kid joking with you that just might be able to make up a random story with you.

Or whatever... is he into games... go buy the newest hottest game ... dont give it to him ... sit in the living room play it like it is the greatest thing in the world and ask him to join you or teach you or just let him kick your butt and then "bow to the holy gameness that is he"
:-)

I don't know ... my Dh tells me all the time I am off my rocker when it comes to kids of all ages... but as I was reading you post I was like wow that house just needs some life pumped back into it.

And don't worry or even think about people saying thank you especially people like his mom etc thanking you for cookies the point is that you and he made the cookies who cares if they said thanks or not... that is just one of those little things to let go.

for you because this child is 14 and alot of 14 year olds are angsty and stand off-ish anyway. As far as dad making him talk...that would probably only make matters worse. Dad should let him know that he is always available when hes's ready to talk and leave it at that.

Trying to force whats eating him out of him will just garner insincere responses which will do none of you guys any good and cause the boy to resent you both. I bet if Dad just opens the door he will go to him on his own in due time.

Just hang in there and I hope thihngs work out for you.

I think your fiance is wrong to shove the disciplining and making of chore lists (not to mention the bulk of the chores themselves) on you. The problem really is with this stance of his, not with his son, who sounds like the typical teenage blase', "cool" unresponsive boy. I'm like you, I'm gregarious & like to connect pretty deeply with people ('course I'm also a woman and a fully-grown adult...). The kid could be uncommunicative for one or more of several reasons:

-he's still adjusting to the post-divorce, new living arrangements situation
-he's an introverted kid
-he's in a loyalty bind b/n his divorced bio-parents
-he's afraid to get attached to any new parental figures (including his step-dad also) b/c memory of divorce is too painful
-he's medicated, like on Ritalin or something (tends to flatten the ol' affect...)
-he's socially awkward in general, doesn't know what to say
-he's just not that interesting
-he doesn't know how to negotiate the balance of intimacy/distance with new step-parents (particularly with one who's female... may sound slightly creepy but to some extent it's natural)
-if he feels that you're doing the "mom thing" too much/too soon, he may resent it because he already has a mom
-he's just not concerned at this stage with "family life", it's all about school & friends
-probably several other explanations that aren't occuring to me right now...

My point is, try not to let any resentment build towards him for what is (frustratingly) typical teenage boy behavior. Again, I think your fiance is putting you in a very awkward and almost doomed predicament if he insists on turning you into an instant "mom" figure, esp. so soon. I don't think, conversely, that he needs to get on his son so much about "manners" or anything to do with YOU directly, but really more about just basic household chores. Both you and your fiance should avoid anything that smacks of either you or the kid becoming THE thorny issue for the other, which is what you'd become, for example, if fiance phrased it to son like: "SM needs some more help around here" or "don't be rude to SM". He can get the same message across and results you all want if he says: "The dishes need washing and the rug needs vacuuming" or "Try to be a little nicer to people in general... makes the world a much easier place." If fiance makes either you or his son The Issue to each other, what he's doing is slinking out of his own responsibilities (including HIS responsibility to pitch in more with chores!) and playing you two against the other.

Finally, one more thought that occured to me as I was reading your post. When you described the X-mas cookie scenario. I can tell your intentions were good and you're trying so hard to be nice and do the things you feel are expected... But unfortunately even the nicest gesture can be taken the wrong way if there's a backstory of conflict or tension or anyone involved is insecure (all of which may be natural and valid reactions, not necessarily indicative of simply "bad" or "crusty" people... divorce breeds all of these things and the effects can unfortunately last a very long time). There was a real risk, in that situation, that the cookie gesture came off as either phony, or "trying too hard", or (depending on various insecurities on anyone's part) a statement of "I'm a better baker/homemaker than you" or "I'm a more gracious wife than you, and I'm being nicer than you this Christmas". NOT THAT YOU DID ANYTHING WRONG, and it's very unfortunate if it was taken any of those ways... But those reactions would all be definitely within the realm of possibility without looking too hard for offense. So my advice to you, given all that, is to remain nice and gracious, but don't go out of your way *too much* until it gets reciprocated a bit more. Relax a little and let the kid come to you, and in the meantime back away a bit but remain open-minded and nice. And gently (or firmly, if need be!) remind your fiance that his son is primarily his responsibility.

Three years ago when my son (not stepson, bio-son) was 14, I could have written the exact same post. The kid just wouldn't talk! The only things that got any sort of positive reaction out of him were along the lines of Mom-to-4's suggestions -- and even then it was mostly eye-rolls, but with a perceptable hint of smile somewhere in there...

One strategy that worked for me was to ask for a 'tidbit' -- a funny story or interesting happening from his day -- as the 'price' for doing him some minor favor or other. It worked surprisingly well --

Above all, try not to take it personally, because it ISN'T personal.

Thank you all very much for your input!

I am pretty silly, I'll try to keep at it. I was like that in the beginning, but I kinda felt like a court jester playing to two uninterested princes, and eventually I started feeling kinda stupid & ultimately phony (no fun to play a rough crowd). Ah well....

Yeah, the cookie thing. I was really worried about how it'd go over, but SS seems to enjoy cooking and so I figured we could bake together as a little project while his father was away for Army training. My dude & his ex separated amicably; she's happily remarried and has never been into the domestic thing... blah blah blah, Yeah, you never know, I guess.

It's not like I expected a thank you, exactly, but I keep hearing from my dude how I'm not trying, but I *am* trying... Maybe the cookie thing wasn't a great idea, but it's like I don't know what to try.

Get this: the kid likes guns so I took him skeet shooting while dad was away again. We enjoyed it, so I thought maybe we could do this as a family -- the kid had some money saved, wanted to buy a used gun, I thought maybe my dude would see this as an opportunity to bond. The Army post nearby offers FREE gun safety classes, even.

I was hoping my dude would guide his son to buy a "beginner" rifle, like an inexpensive .22 which is really cheap to shoot, and we could all chip in for regular visits to the range. Unfortunately, the kid wanted to spend all his money to buy this old Chinese rifle that's, like, an AK-47 -- uses very expensive ammo, can only be fired on certain ranges...

So instead of having a hunting gun here that we use regularly for fun, the kid has basically an assault rifle in his closet, now, that he can't afford to shoot. Haven't been to the range since. I feel like I worked so hard to find some way we can all play together, and then somehow it all fell apart. Plus, this quiet loner of a teenager now has a deadly weapon! And free use of the internet, with complete privacy. He even has photos of himself on MySpace, showing off the gun.

I feel defeated, like whatever I try somehow gets distorted and turns into another problem for me.

Thanks for listening. I need to get a grip! :-)

Is it legal for a fourteen year old to have an assault rifle?

SOmeone should have put their foot down on that one. Guns are part of American life, but assault rifles for teenagers dont make anyone feel comfortable. His father should take it away, and replace it with something more age appropriate. I think half your problem is that dad just doesnt want to do much to raise the boy. He expects you to do it, while he goes on with regular life.

He may have been raised that way himself, since fathers a generation ago were much less involved than fathers of today, as a rule. I understand your resentment. I think all three of you need family counselling, where you feel safe to express your frustration, and they can express what they are thinking. SOmetimes, having a trained person there who can help people, especially men, say what they really think, is a big positive factor.

Totally agree with Kathline on the guns issue! As a Texan-in-progress, I have reluctantly come around to the 'hunting rifle' and 'shotgun' thing for sport hunting, but assault weapons?! For what legitimate purpose?

Someone should have issued an immediate, firm and non-debatable "NO" when the idea first came up. No angst-filled teenager should have access to that kind of gun.

I am going to have to second or is it third the gun issue. Ofcourse, I have a pretty firm I have no need for a gun in my home ESPECIALLY with children rule. So, that would have been a big fat no. But, since it was already a yes then it would be locked up (perhaps in a clear case where he can look at it and still say that is cool) But, I and Dh would be the only people with a key to it. There are just too many things that can go wrong with guns and kids (or teens) even if he is responsible it only takes one irresponsible friend and a split second to change everyone's lives.

I have two teenage boys who will talk on *their* terms, not mine. In fact, the more I try to force conversations, the more they retreat into eye-rolling or silence.

Have you heard of the concept of a meta conversation? It's similar to what mom_of_4 suggests (which is great!) but not quite as goofy. In theory it's a conversation about a conversation, but in practice with a silent teenage boy, it can be a one-sided conversation (by you) about a conversation the 2 of you might be having. Like "hey, I was just remembering how we baked cookies that day and thinking how much fun that was. I'm imagining that you had a nice time cooking as well. I know cooking's not a 'boy' thing, but it's a great skill to have. Maybe one day you'll have a son and he'll want to learn how to cook. How cool would that be? Let's plan another cooking day, shall we? What shall we cook? Let's see...how about something more elaborate? I'm guessing that since you like ____, you might like to learn how to cook ____. What do you think? I'm guessing that since you're rolling your eyes, you might not think that's such a great idea. But I think once we get going, cooking ___ would be a lot of fun. Let's make a shopping list so we can pick up all the stuff we need when we go to the grocery. Why don't you read me the recipe? No? Ok, I'm just going to guess that you're a little embarrassed about this, so I'll write up the list and we'll get everything tomorrow"...etc etc. Notice how you're putting words to his feelings, without judging them. This is important because it gives him a vocabulary that he can use, even if it's just in his head, to name some of how he might feel. With *lots* of practice, he just might open up a little and some of these words in his head might come out.

Best of luck.

Thanks, guys... sorry, I was away awhile cause I had stomach flu.

Yes, the gun issue riles me up. It's not "technically" an assault rifle cause it's not an automatic weapon, but it's a big rifle w/ bayonet that was used (or at least made for) the Chinese army. My dude says since there's no ammo in the house, we're safe. Uh, kids can buy ammo online, duh. No one monitors this child's online activities, his money, his friends...

Question: would you allow your 14 year old sons/daughters to have photos of themselves online, holding a gun as I have described? Isn't that asking for trouble?

Talking to kids: I do the "meta conversing" thing... Used to be a nanny, went thru foster parenting classes, am pretty good with kids, usually. I'm big on "modeling appropriate behavior" and I babbled on to this kid about school days and about friends and about my day and jokingly asked about his but didn't skip a beat when he'd hesitate to answer me... I'd do this when we cooked together, cause otherwise he was holed up somewhere. I think it helps to have a project to work on, so that we have something to take the focus off our conversation, ya know?

But I've been at this for NINE MONTHS and I still hardly know a thing about this kid. He is THAT closed-lipped. I'm a chatty person, and it kills me when he shuts me down, again & again, like just saying hello when he comes home from school is an effort.

An example. The other night, his dad asked him what he did in ROTC class that day, and the kid said, "Maps."

So dad was like, "What about maps?"

And of course this pissed off the kid. So dad got funny with it, "Hey! Topographical maps? Maps of here? Maps of other continents? Maps to celebrity's houses??..."

And the kid breaks the smallest crack of a smile, and then in an instant, his face is beet red and there's real anger in his eyes. He's glaring at his dad like he's trying to strike him down with this stare. Dad keeps up the joking, though, and the kid flickers between smiling & snarling, then finally in this really low growl he says, "Maps! I said MAPS! This doesn't make me want to talk to you!" then escapes out to the deck.

After some cool-off time, my dude went out after him & tried to joke him back inside... the kid pushed past him and stomped to his room.

This is NORMAL? I mean, this is ALL the interaction he can do with the three of us together. He's slightly more talkative with his father, alone. But if I walk into a room, he clams up and will slink away even though his father's always telling him not to do this. Nine months of having his own room under our roof, not including the two months before that when he was down for Summer vacation, nor the previous 2 summers he visited with us.

Another issue: I got this email from the kid, saying he was sorry if he didn't talk to me but he can't help it, that's the way he is... (he can express himself MUCH better in writing). Turns out, my dude is telling him that he has to do something about the tension between us in the house! I am speechless... the kid is just 14!

I emailed the kid it's not his fault, that his dad & I are just working things out & trying to give everyone space, etc... but now my dude is pissed at me cause he says I contradicted him. But I can't believe he'd make his kid feel responsible for the atmosphere, here -- if I'm frustrated with anyone, it's with his dad.

Thanks for any input!

Amasake, just want to make sure & let you know that my reference on the other thread about SP's who get excessively p.o.'ed about kids not saying "good morning" is NOT in any way a reference to you. Mainly because you seem to actually care enough to look past SS's surface and try to come up with alternatives for engaging him... This is in direct contrast to the reaction that unfortunately some people in your situation would have, which would be to simply call him rude, ungrateful, thoughtless, whatever and insist that he not come over anymore without any psychological insight or concern. And yes, it is incredibly frustrating when people won't communicate, so I have empathy for your situation.

As for where your situation stands now, it sounds like one of those situations that gets really awkward because so much attention is being paid to how awkward it is. You know what I mean? Ever felt pressured (either b/c of someone else or just you pressuring yourself) to be "on", say at some gathering, and the more you tried to be cheery & chatty, the more uncomfortable you felt and had no idea what to say? It makes people tense & nervous to feel like they HAVE TO be chatty. I think that's what's going on here. The subject needs to be dropped for the time being. Your fiance is trying and is doing what he knows how to do, but his joking might have felt like baiting/goading to the kid. Teenagers in general are hyper-sensitive. And if the kid is already soemthing of an introvert ---or just ISN'T GOOD at making conversation--- it could have made him feel like he was being made fun of as being somehow inferior.

I think it was good of you to email him back what you did... and I REALLY admire you for having the perspective to see where the kid has some responsibility for the tense atmosphere but that HIS DAD does too and shouldn't put it all on the kid. You may have contradicted your fiance, but I think you made the best decision. If you had not made this extra effort to communicate what you did to SS, it would have made the situation so much worse b/c then he would have felt even more on-the-spot, controlled, and unfairly singled out as the lightning rod for the family's tensions. YOU would have become the target if he felt like you were sitting there, smugly accepting his forced apology without any reciprocal gesture or message back of "hey, we're all figuring this thing out together".

The guns, as everyone's said above, are a problem. And with a personality like his that tends to keep things in, it's a dangerous mix. (To others or himself.) I hate to suggest taking away something he's into (esp. soemthing that is providing him with a sense of 'empowerment', which it's obvious he feels he lacks), but guns are a BIG deal. Is there some other "macho" thing he's into, such as a sport or even loud "macho" music, that attention can be shifted to? Maybe he'll start getting more into cars, for example, as it gets closer to him being driving age... He needs a healthy outlet for his pent-up feelings and soemthing that makes him feel strong and mighty... preferably something he can do with other kids, and of course, preferably something without as much potential for violence as guns.

Right now, to insist that he talk to a therapist, unfortunately, is probably not going to do much good b/c his personality type is going to put up a wall and he'll feel even more cornered. I really think it's basically a matter of everyone just giving him some space and unconditional acceptance, and his attention being diverted off of guns and onto other outlets for his energy.

Oops, clarification:

I don't mean to sound like I think my dude should try to mandate talking to me, or hanging with me, or talking to/hanging with him... It's just that I feel the kid has established his own boundaries. When his dad tries to talk or asks basic info that a parent should know (who his friends are, who is he talking to online, whether he has homework, if he prefers pepperoni over sausage, etc), the kid reacts like, "No thanks, I'm raising myself!" and so dad backs off.

I think that's wrong. I think a kid needs a parent to be involved in their life. I think parents should talk to kids about sex, drugs, drinking, life, challenges, choices, etc... That a kid should contribute to the household someway -- maybe we could have a "cleaning" day where the whole family works together? Cooking nights where we all cook together? His dad, though, doesn't wanna start this up, says it won't work, it'll be "phony."

He says the tension between his son & me is OUR problem, not his. He says he needs to step aside & let us work it out.

I need him to help me, though. I can't handle another 9 months of this, without trying something different.

I'm not an ogre! I get along with kids, teens... I am "favorite aunt" in my family. My dude's 17 year old daughter and I get along wonderfully when she visits. This boy, though, is just so uptight and, I suspect, angry & suspicious. What if he's having issues? How long are good parents supposed to let a kid stew before finding him help?

I can't believe that the solution is to mandate a relationship between me & the boy, which seems to be what his dad wants to do. My dude tells me I need to reach out more, he tells his kid he needs to talk to me more...

Well, duh. But we need help! And I don't think he wants to help us.

But dad is cool with the gun. That's another problem. Dad let him buy the gun. Dad lets him keep the gun in our closet, in a broken case, with a wimpy trigger lock.

What can I say? I'm not the "real" parent. My name's on the mortgage but so what, so is dude's.

Powerless & frustrated, ugh!

Your comments are really helping get my head straight about things, thanks again.

--And the kid breaks the smallest crack of a smile, and then in an instant, his face is beet red and there's real anger in his eyes. --

Are you sure you're not mistaking profound embarrasment for anger? Extroverts don't understand introverts, and see someone as stuck-up, unfriendly, angry, sullen, etc etc, when in reality the person is "just" shy. Add to that adolescence and living in a house with a parent you barely know and a well-meaning extroverted brand new stepparent who thinks everyone constantly needs to talk about everything, and, well, you just described my personal version of hell pretty closely (except that mine also has a karaoke machine and well-meaning extroverted friends who think that being the center of attention is as much fun for everyone as it is for them. but I digress)

There are some issues you brought up that are pretty important... not knowing where he goes who his friends are etc and my own personal belief is that guns and children should never for any reason be in the same house together. But as far as the lack of conversation, could I suggest, and I swear I don't mean this to be rude, but just lay off the poor kid. Chatter all you want and let him reciprocate if and when he feels like it. From the email in particular, he doesn't sound sullen or angry, just an introvert being pressured into being someone he isn't. And never will be. And, yes, at some point he will need to learn to function somewhat in a social environment and carry on a conversation, but he doesn't need to learn that right now. And, more importantly, you can't help him learn that unless he's comfortable with you and he'll never be comfortable with you as long as you keep trying to pressure him into being who you want him to be. I know that's not what you're doing intentionally (he probably knows that even) but I promise you that is how it feels to him.

"So dad got funny with it, "Hey! Topographical maps? Maps of here? Maps of other continents? Maps to celebrity's houses??..." And the kid breaks the smallest crack of a smile, and then in an instant, his face is beet red and there's real anger in his eyes."

Gosh, they are SO SENSITIVE at that age! He probably felt like Dad was making fun of him. Totally NOT the case, but in his eyes... Mine would get similarly angry (felt humiliated) if someone joked with him.

"Another issue: I got this email from the kid, saying he was sorry if he didn't talk to me but he can't help it, that's the way he is... (he can express himself MUCH better in writing). Turns out, my dude is telling him that he has to do something about the tension between us in the house! I am speechless... the kid is just 14! "

I think that's great and would roll with it. Email back! Thank him for the email. Tell him that you care about him and just want to be sure he knows it. Tell him you don't want to pry, but that you're genuinely interested in his life. Tell him you're just a chatty person (duh!) and that you hope that doesn't drive him nuts. Maybe offer that you'll stop the verbal grilling (not like you're really grilling him, but perhaps what it might feel like to him) if you can correspond every so often by email.

Here are a few things that helped with my son:
- Number one was time. It's just such an awkward phase for teenage boys! One good thing I did when DS was about 10-11 was to talk about how awkward adolescence was. I think we went to the zoo or something and saw some animals at that really awkward stage -- you know, where they're all legs and kind of scrawny and not really cute anymore? And it was easy to point out how in just a few short months, that same animal would be fully grown and gorgeous! The statement that seemed to have resonance for him was a straight-out admission that for many kids, adolescence was flat-out awful -- but the good part was that for everyone, it was only temporary. The trick is simply to survivie it until it ended, because it would.

- Number two was to move his computer to a public area of the house. Of course, DS was really, really mad about it when we did it, but we didn't back down. (A bad report card was our stimulus, but anything could work.) What that did was force DS to spend more time in the vicinity of other family members. He didn't have to interract, but was simply there observing that DH wasn't a monster, that he and I had a great relationship, that little brother frustrated us sometimes too (not just him) -- all those 'normal family' type interractions he's hiding from now. And DS would occasionally laugh with his friends online (whew! He had some! We were worried for a while.), or at something on the TV - and that would give us conversation openings.

Good luck with it Amasake -- You sound like a great Mom to me, and I'm betting in two years, this'll all be behind you and you'll have a nice young man again.

Yes, dad does need to help with SS, but the truth is he may not know how. A lot of men don't know how to connect to other males on a person level. Even if it is his son.

As for the online situation, you could try installing be safe online. I have heard Dave Ramsey and Focus on the Family recommend it to monitor your childs internet access. I don't feel that any child should be allowed to used the internet without some kind of monitoring or blocks. There is just to much to get into.

Also, if dad will not step up and make SS do chores and etc. you may have to. I was raised that when you are in my house you follow my rules because I am the parent. And you are the parent.

Don't allow anyone or anything to make you uncomfortable in your own home. It's not how people act, but how we react to them that counts. He is a kid, and look at him as such. You have the power to take control of the situation.

I not saying be a bully or anything like that, but I have found when deal with people on all leaves that when I don't fell that I am in control of my self and any situation that I am involved in that is when I start to feel like a victim and helpless. You have the power to control you destiny.

And it does not matter that you don't have kids of your own even those with kid are just learning on the job and need help. That is one of the reasons we are all on this website. Because we need advise, and to learn from others experienced.

Good luck & God Bless!!!

Thanks, guys.

And, I didn't mean to suggest I was a raving lunatic around this kid. I've TRIED being peppy, being the cheerleader, planning activities & modeling sociable behavior. For months. And I've TRIED laying low, eating meals in absolute silence & staying politely outta each other's way. For months.

At this point, we've had about two months of pretty much silence when we're all together, followed by the last two months of not even being together anymore -- we're all in separate rooms, like, 90% of the time. I'm not exaggerating. Things have deteriorated to this point now where I honestly don't know how much more "hanging in there" I can take.

Why am I in this relationship, if all I'm doing is cooking & cleaning & shopping for two men who otherwise ignore me? I have no say in whether the kid has a gun in what is half my home. I have no say in whether he can have a computer in his room or not (I actually asked him to please put the kid's computer in a family area for exactly the reason mentioned, and also, the kid's often neglecting home work for games). No wonder the kid doesn't know how to interact with me, it's like I have no place on the social hierarchy, here...

Oh... pity party! My point is, I'm VERY insecure, here. I know, it's MY home too, I shouldn't be so scared to offend this kid, but it's more than that... it's like, no one else is trying, so why should I? What am I getting out of this?

I thought having his son come to live with us would be challenging, but I never imagined three people could live under one roof together for over 9 months and still barely interact. I never imagined that by adding a person to this household I would end up so lonely.

Thanks very much for all your insights & advice, I really appreciate it.

Looks like Dude needs to be put in the hot seat.

Have you told him that you are getting feed up? If not you need to tell him how you really feel & let him figure out how to make this situation work. I would be mean about it, but I would be very candid about my feelings. It seem like he has not been taking responsiblity in a lot of areas.

I wouldn't want to live like that either. He helped make this situation and now it is up to him to help fix it.

CORRECTION OF AN ERROR IN MY LAST POST

I wouldn't be mean about it, but I would be very candid about my feelings.

SORRY!!!

"Extroverts don't understand introverts, and see someone as stuck-up, unfriendly, angry, sullen, etc etc, when in reality the person is "just" shy. Add to that adolescence and living in a house with a parent you barely know and a well-meaning extroverted brand new stepparent who thinks everyone constantly needs to talk about everything, and, well, you just described my personal version of hell pretty closely (except that mine also has a karaoke machine and well-meaning extroverted friends who think that being the center of attention is as much fun for everyone as it is for them. but I digress)"

Quirk,

That is so true. I know exactly what you mean about your personal version of hell. When I was in high school I used to HATE pep rallies because I was so embarrassed by the Pom-Pom girls making, in my opinion, fools of themselves in front of all those people. Luckily all 8 of us in our family are introverts - it would be very hard for me to live with anyone who was more than mildly extroverted.

My teens would also have been embarrassed, rapidly followed by anger, at such teasing.

"Why am I in this relationship, if all I'm doing is cooking & cleaning & shopping for two men who otherwise ignore me? I have no say in whether the kid has a gun in what is half my home. I have no say in whether he can have a computer in his room or not (I actually asked him to please put the kid's computer in a family area for exactly the reason mentioned, and also, the kid's often neglecting home work for games). No wonder the kid doesn't know how to interact with me, it's like I have no place on the social hierarchy, here..."

Well, why *are* you there?

You do have a place in the social hierarchy:
you're low man on the totem pole, the dog that gets kicked when someone else feels like kicking.

That's your husband's doing, & you can't extricate yourself from the position without his active support, & he's the one who engineered it.

so there you are.

Your story scared the bejaysus out of me before you got to the part about the gun.

Now I'm petrified.

You're living in, not just a miserable situation, but a crazy, dangerous one, & your husband is the crux of it:

he agitates his son & promotes the aggravation between you & his son;
he picks on his son at the dinner table (I too think the red face was rage at his father for embarrassing him & picking at him),
he overrules you about his son having a gun,
he decrees "how it's gonna be" to his son (bad move with anybody with an ego but twice as bad with an angry adolescent male) but then he does not involve himself in "how it's gonna be",
he sits in one room while son is in another room & you're in another room,
etc etc etc.

Your husband's behavior is counter-productive at best, hostile & passive-aggressive at worst.

& the reality of passive-aggressive personalities is that *you cannot get what you want/need in a relationship with them, & that you not only will not win but you will always lose*.

That's what they do.

They make people lose.

& right now, your losing, & his son is losing.

very satisfying for someone who thrives on & takes power from other people's conflict.

The day that boy kills you or a teacher or a cheerleader with that rifle, your husband will look very shaken & somber on the news, but he won't have a scratch on him.

As misti mentioned in her post, it may be time for a cast iron frying pan of your own...

or it may be time to shake the dust off your shoes, offer to sell hubs your half of the house (be sure to get your name *off* the loan), & go on to something where you can have a reasonably normal & fulfilling life.

or at least one where you don't have to worry about the rifle in the closet.

I wish you the best.

I read this one a few days ago and again yesterday and today. I am wondering what the father's relationship with the son was before he moved in. He came for the summer, then decided to stay? What is going on at his mom's house? Is she in a new relationship or is there a reason the son doesn't want to be at her house? Maybe he's angry at both parents and dad is the lesser of two evils. If that's the case, he may just resent being there and if he isn't close with dad (as it sounds that way), then dad makes no effort to connect & dumps it on you. Your not even the wife!!! He needs to take responsibility. It sounds like dad is operating through guilt and distancing himself from the son so he doesn't have to 'make amends' for any prior relationship problems they might have? This boy just seems to be holding a grudge against dad for something. And only dad can fix it. He may need counseling, but ignoring it won't make it go away. It will only get worse.

I agree with your 'dude' that he should step aside and you have to form your own relationship with his son. It sounds like you've tried and the son resists. You can't force him. However, you can keep trying. It has taken me countless 'talks' with my step daughter and she's coming around. It always gets better after our talks, then she visits mom or has a bad day and we go back to square one. But, it is not helpful for your dude to tell his son that he needs to fix things between you all.

You aren't married to the guy and you really have to make a decision about how you want to live your life. Having a step son that acts this way and has problems isn't as big a problem as having a man that behaves like your dude. Your step son may go back to his mom or grow up & move out but your dude is who he is. He is showing you how he deals with conflict and problems, by avoiding it and blaming others. Is that really what you want???

Oh man oh man... Thank you all very much... Especially the passive-aggressive insights. I've struggled for a long time with dude, holding my tongue so I could really follow his logic and address the important issues but it seems I'd always end up frustrated. You're right -- I always lose.

I listened to myself this weekend, for once, and had to laugh at the essence of our arguments: I tell him I'm at the end of my rope and here's what I need, and he argues that his needs count, too, and he needs to not give me what I'm asking.

That's b.s., right?

Thank god I haven't married him yet. If this is how he treats me before the ring's on my finger, eh? But the house we bought has depreciated in value and I'd lose 50k, easy, if we sold it now.

I'm "on strike" here, haven't cooked or cleaned (except for my own areas) in over a month. Trying to force dude to initiate some changes but he's just digging himself in. I can't believe he cooks meals for his kid in that filthy kitchen.

Boy's story, by the way... His parents divorced in 04 as they were miserable with each other. Mom 'n boy & sister moved many states away. By Fall 05 their mom was engaged; she married over the holidays. Kids get along great w/ step-dad.

I don't know why the kid wanted to live with us here, because he always kept to himself during visits, and didn't seem to particularly enjoy either my or dude's company. But last Summer the kids came to visit and he asked his dad if he could move in. When they went to get his stuff, dude was appalled at how trashed their house was -- dishes everywhere, cruddy floors, dried dog poop, etc-- and the poor kid had, like, no clothes that fit him (and what he did have was stained & ripped).

So... my dude assumed his kid wanted to "upgrade" to our big house in the burbs with someone home all day, keeping things spic 'n span & getting a nice hot meal on the table. I think maybe my Mrs. Cleaver thing freaked him out... but that's who I am. I have no kids of my own & my job is fairly unchallenging so I enjoy cooking & cleaning...

I went on strike, though, cause my dude told me he owed me no gratitude for my hard work, because I "wanted" to do it. He never ASKED me, so therefore he feels no obligation to reward me with, say, watching a show I want to watch or picking up the tab for ice cream one night.

Hell, I've watched his kid for weeks while he was away for training, and he never gave me a dime towards all the stuff I paid for, because I spent my money without first specifically asking him to contribute. I just assumed, though, that'd he'd want to give me something...

I feel awkward, though, complaining about money when we're supposed to be a shared household. We're not married, though, so I need to watch out for myself, right? If I don't keep after him he will stick me with all the food & utilities, and then spend his paycheck on gadgets or car stuff or games for him & his son.

If I tell him I need him to pay his fair share, he tells me I have no right to tell him how to spend his money cause I spend money all the time without asking him. But, I say, I can pay my share of food/utilities. He says that's irrelevant.

Oh god, why have I been falling for this???

Wow, this is wild. I feel like I've been in a fog or something and now suddenly it's lifted & everything looks so obviously wrong I wonder how I could've been so blind...

Thanks so much, you have no idea how much you've helped me.

Your Dude sounds like a very ungrateful user. I just hate you are entangled with a house that could very well leave you in the hole financially.

I hope it all works out, and you are able to move on with your life and live happily ever after,

Or that Dude will wake up. But you know the saying, "Sometimes you don't miss your water until the well runs dry".

It sounds like the son moving in was one of the best things that could have happen to you,

so you could really see all of Dude's true colors.

Amasake,
Be very careful and think about this before you marry him. I didn't know how bad my husband credit was until after. BIG mistake. He put me in the hole a few thousand !!! Which i'm almost free of and now not paying the rent to take back some of the cash. It is ackward to ask for someone to put their share cause its under one house. BUt my Dh, even though i love him, if i buy everything, he'll sit back and let it happen and not put in a dime! Now i hold off..Buy some things and do not buy others. Forces him to cough up the cash. Sure he doesn't have much left in the end. But he's paid his half of the expenses!!! I told him i expect him to pay half of the bills. The tv, the phone the heating. I'm not a bank! If he doesn't. I pay. then i deduct from the rent. He doesnt' have a choice!
Rule #1 . Keep separate bank accounts. The mere fact that his spending habits will be differetn from yours.
#2. Keep track of all the bills and make sure he pays his half.
Sure you love him. But love doesn't pay the bills! Pay the bills first and then whatever money he has left over that is HIS, he can do what he wants with it!

I'm not too sure about how to connect with a surly fourteen year old boy, but I do have a small comment on "I went on strike, though, cause my dude told me he owed me no gratitude for my hard work, because I "wanted" to do it. He never ASKED me, so therefore he feels no obligation to reward me with, say, watching a show I want to watch or picking up the tab for ice cream one night."

Dude sounds a lot like my ex. I was with him for nearly five years (late teens/early twenties) and lived with him for about a year. I pulled most of the weight in the relationship, both emotionally and with the housework and such. It was incredibly draining and left me with all sorts of weird guilt issues.
Just a little example of everyday life with him: I generally cooked supper for us (I enjoy cooking, so that's fine) but once I was very busy writing papers and asked him to make supper. First he said no and said that if I didn't want to cook tonight, then I could pay for delivery. When he finally agreed to it (after a near-tantrum from me about him being lazy and me being a broke student) he made McCain french fries and "served" them with ketchup drenched all over the top (I like my ketchup on the side, and you'd think that after 4 years of dating, he would know that)... It doesn't seem like a big deal, but after years of this sort of thing, it is.
I finally realized that he had no respect for me, my education or career, my friends, my role in the relationship, and so on.
If my little story about supper and french fries and ketchup sounds all-too-familiar, I'd really suggest sitting Dude down and saying "You don't respect me or my role in this relationship. I cannot do all the giving and put out all the work and get little in return. Things MUST change. Here is what I need from you: _____. I realize that this will be a difficult pattern to break for us both, and I am willing to try to help you. What do you think you will need help with? I want you to know that it's OK to ask me to help you, but that I will tell you flat-out if I think you're slipping back into old habits and wanting me to do all the work for this too." When dealing with a "taker", you often can't use care-language and I-statements, because they disregard how you feel and what you think.
Don't get me wrong, I love my BF and am very happy that my path in life has led me to him, but if I had taken charge earlier and told exBF what I suggested to you sooner, perhaps I wouldn't have had five years of being second-class in my relationship and it would have worked out for me and exBF.

'told me he owed me no gratitude for my hard work, because I "wanted" to do it.'

Ex's kids had no decent clothes;
ex & his ex, the boys' mother, claimed that they were raising their children to have better values than the consumption-based lifestyle that involved buying clothes new rather than used, so all their stuff came from garage sales.

All their clothing had stains & rips, & a lot of it was just worn out.

One week-end I bought them a bunch of new clothes.

It was my idea, & I did enjoy doing it.

but I never got a thank you.

Since he had claimed in previous "discussions" that I was too sensitive & expected him to read my mind, & since he had told me that he, like many very intelligent people, simply had no awareness of social foo-faws & that if I wanted him to observe said foo-faws I'd have to tell him (every time! you'd think a very intelligent person would be capable of learning!), I told him that I'd appreciate some appreciation, that I had done something nice for his children & that he should express gratitude.

same thing:
"I didn't ask you to do that; you did it because you wanted to. There was something about it that made you feel good, or you wouldn't have done it. It's unreasonable & manipulative of you to demand that I thank you for doing something you wanted to do anyway."

Then he got this arrogant look on his face & looked down his nose & said self-righteously, "I refuse."

there's no peace with somebody like that, nothing but destruction of your soul.

Can you buy out his share of the house?

(I don't see him buying yours;
he'd want you to pay him to take your share!)

So you ignored their value-based purchasing decisions, and then expected to get thanked for it?

Nope.

Parents had no problem with the boys' *having* new clothes (surprise!), they just never paid for anything nice.

or even decent.

& the kids were old enough that they were becoming aware of negative social reactions to the way they looked.

They were embarrassed to go to school & church.

I'm not talking about gently used play clothes here;
the only clothes they had were things that, if donated to a charity, would be sold to a rag dealer or discarded.

things you couldn't give to a needy family without offending the needy family.

I also bought the older boy a (used) bicycle.
He was nearly 8 & had never been taught to ride a bike.

He wanted one, but his parents told him that that was frivolous & wouldn't he rather read (libraries are free)?

The "values" mantra was rationalization;
it was a way to claim they were doing a superior job of parenting while actually using the kids as pawns in their messed-up relationship.

sorry I didn't make that clear.

Oh man... You guys hit the nail on the head, here. Yes, I've done too much and now it's like I'm in over my head, and he's fighting to keep me here.

We actually had the "I need to know you respect me & value my contributions..." talk awhile back. He met me with such resistance/irritation/disbelief/mocking that I went on strike at the beginning of the month -- initially, it wasn't so much a "strike" as it was a matter of truly being nauseated at the thought of sharing a meal with him. I was just so hurt & frustrated.

And I still am.

I'm really glad to hear you guys echoing my sentiments that he really should be pitching him for household expenses. I always feel so mean when I bring up money... he loves to insinuate that I'm not a team player, when I ask him to chip in. Like I'm being petty.

Living here is expensive, though! If I pay for everything, I'll have no savings. But then I feel guilty for saving money when he's complaining about his credit card bills. I would love to help him out... but he doesn't care to discuss budgeting or paying me back to a joint "savings" account which I've stressed would go towards something for the household that we both agree we need.

We took a little vacation over Xmas when his kid visited his mom -- my dude specifically said he'd split the expenses. We got back & I tallied up $600 in gas, parking, and cash I took out for airport stuff & souvenirs for his kids. He huffed about how I should chip in for snorkel gear he purchased a month before we ever had plans to take a trip. Yeah, he used it on the trip, but so what? Did I ask him to buy my bathing suit? Pay for my mani-pedi? I pointed out how I never specifically said I'd pay for the gear, so by his own rule, then, I shouldn't be expected to contribute.

It's April, now, and I'm glad I'm only out $300 this time around.

And you guys are right, his kid moving in has been the best thing cause it's opened my eyes to what an unbalanced relationship I've made for myself, somehow.

It really helps to hear your stories, to know that other smart women get themselves into such sticky spots with the men they love.

When it was just us, yeah, I didn't mind so much "spoiling" him but with the two of them, now, I don't have that kinda money or energy. If we can't get along from here, I don't know what to do. I can't afford to buy him out. His parents are coming for two weeks in June and he tells me he expects me to be ready to chip in with the housework again by the time they're here...

I just dunno.

I think I've spent a lot of our relationship in my own head -- showering him with treats & attention without really checking to make sure he was reciprocating. Now that I'm finally "doing the math," I'm seeing how little he really regards me, and that's been a mighty bitter pill to swallow.

Still, at least I'm not married. At least he doesn't have access to my checking or savings or credit cards.

Thanks again. I'm so fortunate for all your wonderful insights & advice.

"I always feel so mean when I bring up money... he loves to insinuate that I'm not a team player, when I ask him to chip in. Like I'm being petty."

They're good at that...

Whenever I resisted giving in to my Ex on some point, he'd always say incredulously "I can't believe you're making such a big deal out of this little issue!"
Now, I wasn't yelling, ranting or getting upset - just refusing (for once) to give in and do it his way. After years of this, I finally learned to say "So it's a little issue? It's not important?" Wait for him to confirm. Me: "Then why don't *you* give in, since you've just said it's not important to you. You see, it IS important to me." When even that tactic didn't work, I knew I was in over my head...

Reading this post several times over the past few days I realized that my SC do not carry on basic conversation with me, their dad or each other.

I have paid attention the last 2 days since they came home sunday from mom's. Conversation on Sunday consisted of 12 yr old feeling sickly (9 & 10 were sick all last week), Oh and they complained what I made for dinner (boneless chicken over rice with mixed vegetables). After dinner we all sat and watched tv at 8 PM hubby said bedtime they all went up after a couple gripes but I sat mute .... no goodnights nothing just grumbling about bedtime.

Yesterday morning I wake up the 2 younger ones for school grumbling again about having to get up but nothing directly to me ... I made pancakes for breakfast complaining not enough syrup I continued to stay mute at 8:12 I said time to go more grumbling about going to school .... got in the car went to the bus they got out didn't say a word just slammed the doors..... the 12 yr old was home all day the only time he spoke to me was to ask what I was making for lunch. I made lunch he ate and went back to bed. Didn't see him again until I got home from work... at 6 I walk in the door the 3 of them sitting there not one word ... so I didn't say anything either hubby came down I talked with made dinner.

At dinner they hardly spoke was extremely quiet I spoke with hubby but the kids had nothing to offer to the conversation. After dinner we all went into the living room and it was same thing no conversation the kids were making kids noises clicking jumping banging but no actual words.... 8 PM hubby says bedtime no good nights nothing more grumbling about bedtime.

So until 10PM hubby and I sat watching tv he was on the phone doing stuff conversing here and there about his day and mine.... the kids and such... at 10pm he went upstairs with out a word "yelled" down to me "are you coming to bed?" I went up and decided this was it my time for a talk.

I went into the big spiel about how no one ever talks to each other gave him many examples.... I said do you realize if I never said a word to them I don't think they would even know I was here they are oblivious to their surroundings... they don't even acknowledge each other nevermind anyone else... he says "that's their mother" I said ... Were you absent did you go on a 12 year vacation? I find it hard to believe you have had no influence on their lives!!

So we talked more about it .... I said basically at the end of the conversation you will see tomorrow what I mean I am not going to instigate any conversation with any of them and at the end of the night I want you to tell me if I was right or wrong.

I woke up this morning went in got 2 up for school they were both semi awake I didn't say another word to either of them one at breakfast the other did not... again not a word .... we leave at 8:12 for the bus everyday at 8:16 they were sitting there at 8:17 I got up walked out the door got in the car to drive them to the bus stop they followed they ran to the car wrestling over the front seat I locked the doors and said ... you both can sit in the back SD starts punching SS with out saying a word I then said hit him again and you can walk to the bus stop... no words ... we sat at the bus stop for 2 minutes the bus came and they got out of the car slammed the doors no byes nothing not one word... I came home 12 yr is home its is now noontime he and I have not said one word to each other not even grunted....

Sitting here thinking houseful of people and its very lonely here :(

Amasake and Cawfe...Guess 28 years of living with tension and silence was long enough, at least for me...Before my son went to live in a college dorm, there was tension and silence..After he left , pretty much just silence....Strikes me all the excuses I made, financial, where will I go, what will I do, how can I survive, I ve been here so long.... unhappy with a dictatorship, no you cant, no you wont..I had money tied up in the house, and he saw to it nothing was ever put in my name, just his.....Then came 911, and that was the most unbearablely silent night and the night I resolved to change my life...Couldnt take 10 more minutes, was never going to get better, closer.....if we couldnt even talk that night...actually took 7 more months til I had the guts to walk out with a garbage bag full of clothes......6 months of staying with a relative, hating the hours between 4 and six PM , dinner, homework, etc, what life no longer was, feeling useless.....broke, no longer a wife or mother(kid was off at college)BUT....I DO NOT regret .....I adjusted, things got so much better, and am living life in a democratic relationship now with a husband I could only dream about, never thought such a person existed...So, finances, length of time invested, dont waste time...Lifes too short....Sure wish I had about 27 of the 28 years I wasted.....Good luck

This reminds me of when I was battling over whether to leave my first husband or not. He was an abusive, drug addicted, unpredictable man.

My father told me, "If you stay, things MIGHT change and someday they MIGHT be the way you'd hoped them to be and you MIGHT be happy with the person your husband is; but if you go, it might be hard at first, but I GUARANTEE that before long, you WILL be happy with yourself because you can ALWAYS trust yourself."

It's not always easy to walk away, but the right thing to do often isn't the easiest.

Well for me its not hubby ... he and I talked during the day today and he said he was thinking about it most of the day ... and realized that they only really initiate conversations with me when they need/want something I said thats it exactly....

What's for dinner
Play a game?
Can I haves .....

He pulled them into complete conversations tonight sat all 3 down and gave a "common courtesy" speech ... although he did say "bedtime" and off they went.... I said "goodnight children" mumbling good night ... he stopped and had them repeat it louder... then he said it back to them .... not much but its a start.

:)

baby steps, Cawfe. Hang in there.

Wow, again.

Cawfe, best wishes to you -- sounds like your man has some "fight" in his, regarding you.

I'm really afraid but finally admitting that this guy does not love me, not in the way I really want to be loved... And not in the way I've loved him, unfortunately.

Sorry to commandeer a stepfamily forum thread into my own personal quest for relationship answers, but I guess it took brainstorming with you guys to figure out that this unhealthy household situation isn't for my own lack of trying, and requires support that just ain't happening.

Thanks very much for your insights... take care!

Cawfe,

It must be reassuring to you to know your DH doesn't let your concerns go in one ear and out the other; that he listens to you, considers your concerns, that he thinks about what you've talked about. And more importantly, ACTS on it!

As JNM wrote, baby steps!

amasake,

I spent (wasted) seven years with someone that didn't 'love' me but let me raise his children. (he wasn't all that interested in raising them himself) He was more concerned with what he needed, than what I or even his kids needed. After I left (and he gave up after a year of trying to get me back), he married the next girl that came around. His kids were entering their teens then and his wife didn't want anything to do with his kids. She had her own and then got him to have two more with her (twins). His kids pretty much raised themselves and left home as soon as they could.

One of my biggest regrets is leaving before the kids were grown or not maintaining a relationship with them. The only choice I had to maintain the relationship with them was to go back to their dad. I was the only mom that 'mothered' them. If you were to say you have a relationship with his son, I would tell you to think about that before leaving, but it doesn't sound that way.

My point? What I would say is that you can't fix someone else's problems. It's not even a matter of whether he loves you or not. He sounds too focused on himself that he doesn't see what his son needs anymore than he sees what you need. I feel very sorry for his son because it sounds like he's given up on his parents and just wants to get old enough to escape the hell they have created for him. (just like my ex's kids)

The worst feeling I've ever had was to wake up at 29 and realize I wasted my 20's, raising six kids and being with someone that didn't love or appreciate me. (I was 22 when we got together & I had 3 kids plus his 3)

Yes wrychoice it was a nice feeling ... I guess I should appreciate it more I kind of thought nothing of it because I was thinking thats what he is supposed to do right!!

This morning all 3 said good morning have a good day at work dad, I even got a see you tomorrow cawfe...(I say when dropping them off Have a good day, see you afterschool or see you sunday, depending on what day it is was a strange day .... hubby looked at them and asked if aliens had taken over his children???? they said no and laughed... (giant steps maybe) They might have been taken over by aliens... :)

The 12 yr old has been home all week he and I went shopping and I took him the doctors today (eeks) strep throat so he will be home again tomorrow.... no silence today (hahah) ...

Cawfe,

Don't joke about the "being taken over by aliens" thing...I work in an area of the world known as Appalachia...geography makes parts of it remote and isolated...when I've had clients come in and tell me they've been abducted by aliens and now have chips implanted in their brains, I've always chalked it up to psychosis....now you've got me thinking it may be possible! ;-)

Amasake,

Sometimes the most painful realizations are the ones that do us the most benefit. I'm wishing you strength to see what is best for YOU, and courage to act upon your findings.

Keep us posted - we're always happy to help. If there is one thing this board has it's opinions! :-)