Just registered today. Troll?

i thought I could get help

I think your boyfriend has no business criticizing you in front of his teenager daughter: if he has something to say to you he should wait for the moment you are alone, as for all the other couple's business. The SD should stay out of it and he should warn her to treat you with respect, respect is something due to anybody, employed or not.
Moreover, i think that in a couple , if one of the partners is in a difficult moment (due to illness, depression, unemployment or age, 50 is not an easy age to find a new job) the other should try to help, not just criticize or berate.

frankly, i think you are in a very difficult situation and as your boyfriend is not
willing to help even if he has the means (YOU ARE NOT SPONGING OFF HIM; you are paying your way with your earned savings) and he is so mean to resent it, the situation can only worsen and hurt your already low self-esteem.

Cut your losses, budget your condo earnings and buy the best house you can have for that money (a small cottage ? a small fixer-upper?), earmark some money to brush up your skills in your former profession or add new ones with some university courses (there are grants, programs etc..) .
You are better off without somebody criticizing and berating you in front of somebody elese...

P.S: To vivian, raek etc..: i don't remember you advising stepparents to evict adult stepchildren not willing to find a job, any job...

Searer, I HIGHLY advocate not supporting adult chldren. I don't raise our children so that they will live with us into adulthood. That isn't the goal. The goal is to make him contributing, responsible members of society. I love my stepchildren, but I certainly don't want them to be children forever....

So where you got that, I don't know. My kids are still under the age of 18 so I generally don't respond to the adult children threads as I have no firsthand experience there.

But hey, whatever...

Maybe it is also a communication issue -- he wants me to find a job just liek the one i had, and if that is not going to happen, then we should make choices.

searer...FYI, I AM an adult stepchild. My dad just came to MY HOUSE THAT I BOUGHT and spent the weekend in MY GUEST BEDROOM. I think that all adult children should be able to have a relationship with their parent, but I DO NOT THINK THE ADULT CHILD SHOULD BE SUPPORTED FINNANCIALLY BY THE PARENT. In fact my stepbrother (age 23) lives with my dad and stepmother and until recently, his girlfriend was also living there with him. The girlfriend got tired of dealing with my stepmother and finally moved out after about 3 years because she couldn't convince my SB to leave with her and get a place of their own. Believe me, I think it is best for EVERYBODY to pull their own weight. But, I will say that it makes more sense for a dad to support his children than it does for him to support a live-in girlfriend.

I think that helenar is looking for a job with exactly the same vacation time/pay/benefits/work load as the one she already had. I'm not sure what it is she did, because she has not said, but that may not be a possibility.

Maybe her boyfriend wants a woman in his life that will set a good example for his daughter and teach her that it is up to HER to support herself, that she should not go looking for some man to support her.

Personally, I think that all single (unmarried) women should have a bit of a life plan and should not rely on some man to take care of them. What happens if the relationship goes in the toilet? Or what happens if the guy passes away? She is not entitled to his home or any of his insurance/retirement, what would she do then? It is another story if it is a married situation in which the woman stays home to raise children. But why would you just want to sit at home all day? What's wrong with getting a job to earn some income and support yourself and contribute to the household while you are waiting for something else to come along that might be more of what you are looking for?

I will tell you that my boyfriend lives in my house with me, and I would not have it if he were not contributing to the mortgage and the utilities. Maybe helenar is paying for her own food and her own car, but it seems like the boyfriend wants her to also contribute to the household bills. I think that an adult who is capable of working should not balk at the idea of having to pull her own weight...wether that adult is an adult child or a live-in girlfriend. I doubt if she would like it if the shoe were on the other foot.

Also, if helenar thinks that the BF's Daughter is rotten, I'm quite sure that the Daughter realizes this and that is why she chooses not to stay in her dad's home. She is not comfortable there. And helenar...you say "the marriage was dead for at least 5 years"...does this mean that the marriage was not working for at least 5 years, but they were still living under the same roof, or that they were already divorced when you met him and started dating him?

BF was living with wife during those 5 years, but traveled out of town on business constantly.

He realizes SD is rude and disrecptful to me, and takes my side. So she doesnt get to hang out at our hosue.

Most of his friends wives' dont work at all. So it is not that unusual in his cricle for me not to. I think he pushed his X to work. I didnt realize when we were dating that he could be cheap -- he always takes me out to expensive restaruants and vacations.

WIFE is the key word there. Probably also women who are raising the children...right? Also, I hate to point out the obvious, but if you were seeing him while he was married, you were instrumental in breaking up the marriage. I'm sure another reason why his daughter does not respect you.

I'm sorry you arent finding support on here,but I have to agree with the other posters.
The difference is,he was MARRIED to his wife for 28 years,a very long time.You are not married to him.
It would be one thing if you had a child together and were home to raise your child.It is another to just not work because you said,"and dont see why I have to work -- BF makes plenty," Almost sounds to me like you're some kind of gold digger.
Whether or not there are jobs in your field,find one that you enjoy doing then until you can get one in your field. You like plants? Go work at a greenhouse. You like movies? go work at a dvd place.
Your BF is berating you because sounds like he doesnt need the extra responsibilty of caring for someone who CAN work,and just doesnt want to. He would probably respect you alot more if you worked and wouldnt feel like you are looking at him as your meal ticket.

"Also, I hate to point out the obvious, but if you were seeing him while he was married, you were instrumental in breaking up the marriage. I'm sure another reason why his daughter does not respect you."

first, the only people who can break a marriage are the two persons involved in that marriage, husband and wife, nobody else..

second, if the daughter (who is 15 years old and knows diddly squat about what happens or can happen between husband and wife) has to disrespect somebody, she can disrespect her own father, HE DIVORCED HER MOTHER, OF HIS OWN VOLITION, THERE ARE NO DIVORCES AT GUNPOINT

third: respect is due to everybody, employed or not, married or not, girlfriend or not.

By the way, raek I hope that if your boyfriend loses his job (it has happened to the best of us) you won't criticized him in front of other people (especially rude teenagers) or berate him but try to help him, even if he is not yet your husband...

Helenar used to have a plan for her old age and her own house and probably has disrupted these plans to go to live with this guy (again I don't think against the guy's will) so now I think it would be common courtesy for him let her the time to regroup her forces.

Dear Helenar, leave him, he's cheap, he takes you out in expensive restaurant and hotelonly because HE enjoys this stuff, it has nothing to do with you..
Cut your losses or in some years you will find even more alone and broken

helenar, you mentioned that your BF and his ex are both lawyers, in which case they both must have a strong work ethic. When he was married to her, she worked, and when he started a relationship with you, you worked. It doesn't matter whether his friend's wives work or not--clearly, it matters to him that the woman he's with has a job.

He should NOT berate you in front of his daughter, or at ALL. But it may make him uncomfortable for her to think that he supports you, and that may be his (misguided) way of letting his daughter know how he feels.

The daughter shouldn't disrespect you, but I can see how she might resent you for not working, especially if her parents both have a strong work ethic and are teaching her the same.

Bottom line--whether or not you create any additional expenses for him, he is/was financially responsible to his ex and to his child. At some point, your savings will run out, and when that day comes, he doesn't want you to become his financial responsibility. And honestly, what will you do for the rest of your life if your BF just decides he doesn't want to be with you? It sounds like you need to start making a backup plan no matter what.

Thanks for your comments -- they were very very helpful.

Part of problem, which you are helping me focus on, is that both BF and X not only have strong work ethick (which I do to, beleive it or not), but they also both have good educations, which I do not.

I agree that both BF and X want SD to focus on good education to get a good job. SD has already says school doesnt matter, and all she has to do is marry well.. I hadnt put 2 and 2 togethor that thas was reallly bothering BF

thanks

Aha...makes even more sense to me now. He's right to want to teach his daughter that marrying well is NOT a career plan =)

I'm a grown-up stepdaughter myself. My sister and I like our dad's wife, but he supports her 100% (and pretty lavishly) and we have a hard time understanding that. He taught us, his daughters, to be smart and work hard so that we would never have to depend on a man, but all those rules fly out the window when it comes to his wife (who is only a few years older than us). Luckily they've only been married for the past 3 years--if he'd been sending us this mixed message when we were your BF's daughter's age, it would have been really confusing.

As for you not having an education, he shouldn't have a problem with that--when he met you, you didn't have one, and if it bothers him now, that's his problem, not yours! I'm with coolmama--go out and find yourself a no-pressure job that you enjoy. If money isn't his point and you have very few expenses, sock away your paychecks in a saving account. Best of both worlds for everyone. I wish you lots of luck!

In this day and age, I just can't understand why any woman would feel entitled to being financially supported by any man on a permanant basis. Especially when you're not even married! (In between jobs, you deserve emotional support, respect, and some financial slack.) The whole notion of 'marrying well' is completely out-of-date, and would have to scare the heck out of any man with considerable financial obligations and within sight of retirement age. He's got to be concerned about his financial future, and you're part of the problem.

You've heard the notion about spouses being equal partners? So what are you bringing to the table? In what way are you an equal partner in this relationship? If you don't have an education and expect him to support you financially, that could be WHY you're not his wife... I'd work on *getting* that education, because, as you point out, getting a good job is getting harder as we age, not easier. You need to have something to sell.

Now, a joint decision to forego outside employment to stay home and raise children? I totally understand that. In fact, some good friends of mine did just that. Before agreeing to have children, they decided she would continue in her high-paying, high-powered but demanding career, and he would give up his well-paying but less-promising career to stay home with their kids, and that in the event of a divorce, she would pay him child support until the kids had graduated from high school, plus she would pay him spousal support (this is not the norm for our state) for an additional five years (after HS graduation) so he could rebuild his career, which would have suffered tremendously. The kids are now 12 and 10, and the divorce was last year. You think my friend wants to take on a boy-toy? Hardly! Like your BF, she's worse-off financially since the divorce, and has heavy financial obligations.

And your side-stepping about the 'dead' marriage isn't going unnoticed. Plenty of 'dead' marriages last anyway, and the kids and financial situation of both spouses are better off for it. Many of those 'dead' marriages somehow revive themselves as the pressures of child-rearing and career-building ease, and turn into contented retirement years.

searer...you say "respect is due to everybody, employed or not, married or not, girlfriend or not"...is it not also due to a marriage...wether it is your own or somebody elses? By the way, if you read some of my other posts on different issues, I don't necessarily agree that respect is due to everybody. I belive that respect is EARNED. I believe that the issue of respect is a huge problem in our country today. Everybody thinks they DESERVE respect, but they want to do nothing to earn it.

I agree that it is the BF's fault that the marriage was broken also, but his daughter LOVES him. She has no connection to the homewrecker that broke up her family. I think if you searer, were in her shoes, and your father had left your mother for another woman, you would hardly love, respect, or even want to be around that woman. And a 15 year old girl may not understand exactly what it takes to keep a marriage going, but she certainly is old enough to understand the concept of adultery.

and another thing searer...My boyfriend is a VERY hard working man. If he lost his job, he would be out looking for one the very next day and would do whatever odd job he could in the mean time to earn money. That is who he is. That is also who I am. Would I help him if he needed help? Absoulutely. But I would not help him if he was not willing to help himself.

helenar...I just read my last post, and I'm sorry if this sounds insulting to you. It was not intended. I just felt as if I was being attacked by searer for giving my POV on things and I got a little defensive. Sorry.

If OP did have a hand in breaking up the marriage though,the step daughter may never like her. 15 is old enough to know what's going on,and old enough to have a strong feeling about it.

First I need to say to lynne melb, your "troll" remark is hurtful, useless and uncalled for. I was shocked when I read it. We all come to this forum for help, advise and support, not to be called names. helenar, it sounds to me like you should get a "life plan" in place. In the legal sense, being a girfriend is not the same as being a wife. As a wife you are entitled to marital assets, retirememnt, spousal support ect. Girlfriends don't get any of that if the BF leaves or dies. Also, if the two of you started dating while he was still married, that means he cheated on his WIFE....If he will cheat on his wife, what makes you think he won't cheat on his girlfriend? You might find yourself replaced one day with no job, no education, no house. You should really think about YOUR finacial future and not depend on him at all. As for the disrespect from both SD and BF, keep in mind, people will treat you with respect if you don't let them walk all over you. I hope things work out for you.

"searer...you say "respect is due to everybody, employed or not, married or not, girlfriend or not"...is it not also due to a marriage...wether it is your own or somebody elses? By the way, if you read some of my other posts on different issues, I don't necessarily agree that respect is due to everybody. I belive that respect is EARNED. I believe that the issue of respect is a huge problem in our country today. Everybody thinks they DESERVE respect, but they want to do nothing to earn it.
I agree that it is the BF's fault that the marriage was broken also, but his daughter LOVES him. She has no connection to the homewrecker that broke up her family. I think if you searer, were in her shoes, and your father had left your mother for another woman, you would hardly love, respect, or even want to be around that woman. And a 15 year old girl may not understand exactly what it takes to keep a marriage going, but she certainly is old enough to understand the concept of adultery.

and another thing searer...My boyfriend is a VERY hard working man. If he lost his job, he would be out looking for one the very next day and would do whatever odd job he could in the mean time to earn money. That is who he is. That is also who I am. Would I help him if he needed help? Absoulutely. But I would not help him if he was not willing to help himself."

Dear raek,

please let it go of the idea that marriage can be wrecked by people outside the married couple: nobody's can break a marriage if one of the two persons united in marriage is not already willing to break his/her vows.

I know (because I read many other post from you) from where you came from but this is a very childish notion that will not serve you well in your impending marriage (Congratulations!). I tell you this as married woman (I met my husband exactly 5 years after the end of his marriage).

A marriage is not an abstract institution , is god or bad, wonderful or hellish according to the trust, work and sense of duty the husband and wife put in it, and it fails because one or both stop to work at keeping alive and viable the marriage relationship.

Only when the relationship between husband and wife is already damaged beyond repair or completely dead, people start falling in love with somebody else, that is called "adultery". Now, even if you are not yet married, I think you know that if you love somebody, you don't fall in love with somebody else, don't you ? So for somebody in a marriage to fall in love with somebody else, he/she must not love his/her mate anymore. It is sad but it is so, deal with it.

It is tough especially for the children to understand that their father/mother does not love anymore their mother/father but it happens and we must deal with reality, not with romantic dreams of living happily everafter.

Marriage is the beginning not the end of the story and in the real world not all the stories have an happy ending.

So homewreckers (just like boogeymen) do not really exist , the home was already broken, usually by the peolpe inhabiting it...

If the 15 year old is rude to Helenar because she believes that that her father left her mother for Helenar but she doesn't dare to be angry toward her father because she loves him and so attributes all the "adultery" 'fault to the Other Woman, she's just a 15 year old misguided and opportunistic emotional coward and if her father does not curb this (possibly explaining her that HE had a problem with HIS marriage vows) is doing her a disservice, failing to teach her to deal with the reality and not with her fantasies. She's grown enough for it.

About respect: You say that respect is earned: this is true, a rude 15 year old must learn that she does not deserve any respect till she learn to behave civilly with somebody, that career choices'notwithstanding (respect is not related to earning potential , otherwise unemplyed people should not get treated civilly ?) is treating her politely and civilly .

By the way, you can not really treat civilly and politely only the people you morally approve of..and believe yourself authorised to be rude to the people you don'approve...Remember: who is without sin...

about your boyfriend: you really never know. I am sure that your boyfriend has certainly a strong work ethic but even him could be not so chipper when he's 50, or get discouraged if he had just pulled off all his roots to follow you and he can not find immediately another job, or get depressed if he is refused many times just because he's too old or he get extremely low in self esteem because you start to criticizing in front of friend or family and allow your 15 year old to be rude to him.....And the same could happen to you..

You are very young so please don't judge everybody before walking a mile in their shoes.....

For Helenar: dear, jenkin is right, think about YOUR OWN future, leave this cheap and rude guy to deal with his rude daughter.Life is too short to waste it in aggravation.

Flame me, but I agree with Lynne Melb. Sounds a bit suspicious to me. Too many obvious misspellings, too much weirdness. I don't believe someone with the education of a lawyer, married to a lawyer, who enjoys the finer things in life and wants them for his own daughter, would put up with someone who can't string a coherent sentence together.

I am not troll. English is not my first language. In my contry, my family was middle class. I keep up my appearance, unlike X, who has let herself go.

I appreciate comments of others.

If that's the case, Helen, I apologize. What is your native country? And what is it that you are trained at, perhaps people on this post could give you some ideas of possible jobs to apply for. It sounds like your male friend does not want to support you.

searer...I agree that it is mostly on the backs of the 2 people in the marriage to keep the marriage strong. I also think that if a man will cheat WITH you, he will also cheat ON you, so beware helenar. But I think when you become an interloper in another person's marriage, even if it is not in great shape to begin with, you are making a bad situation even worse. You cannot expect to be blameless. You cannot expect the children of the man you are having an affair with to like you or respect you.

I doubt very much that the ONLY reason the SD acts in a disrespectful mannor is that helenar is unemployed. I think it has a whole lot more to do with the affair. I agree that the boyfriend should have more blame when it comes to the affair than helenar should, but It is easier to find the good in and forgive the people you love. A whole lot harder to find the good in and forgive those you do not really like or hardly know. That is why many women/men who have been cheated on can find a way to forgive their significant other, but direct much hatred toward the other woman/other man.

You are right, respect is not related to earning potential. It is related to how a person treats you, who they are, all of the things they have done to earn/loose respect. It doesn't really sound like the SD is really all that disrespectful, just that she voices her opinion about helenar's lack of a job. She sees her mom working hard to make ends meet and to help support her, meanwhile, dad is paying all of the bills and taking care of the other woman.

you say "By the way, you can not really treat civilly and politely only the people you morally approve of..and believe yourself authorised to be rude to the people you don'approve"...To act politely is not the same as respecting somebody. I never said you should be rude to those you do not morrally approve of. I just said that some people deserve respect and some do not. Politeness is about who you are, not who THEY are.

As for my boyfriend...he is a member of a union at his job. When he is 50 he will have enough seniority that he will have endless job security. I'm not really worried about wether he will have a job when he is 50...but, if I did have to worry about that, I would help him if he needed help, but if he lived with the idea that raek makes plenty of money, so I don't need to go out and do whatever I can to find something else, she should just support me because she can afford it, that would be a different story. If he needed to go back to school...I would support him in that, with the idea that after attending school he would be able to get a new job to help himself. If he wasn't making as much money as he previously was, I would be ok with that. As long as he is making an effort, I would not be unhappy with him. I don't think that helenar is making that kind of effort.

I also think if it were a man coming on this forum with the same story, we may all have a different opinion about it. My advice to a man expecting a woman to support him would be the same as my advice to helenar...would yours?

You also say "You are very young so please don't judge everybody before walking a mile in their shoes....." I'm sorry if I come across as judgemental, but helenar came to this forum seeking advice, and I am giving my opinion, my advice. I think that her boyfriend is just trying to set a good example for his daughter, to teach her a strong work ethic, to not rely on a man to take care of her. I think this is hardly a reason to leave somebody. Maybe you should take your own advice and walk a mile in his shoes. I don't know how long helenar has been unemployed, but it really sounds to me as if she really doesn't want to look for another job. She doesn't want to sacrifice vacations in order to get an education. It is all about priorities. It's not like he is kicking her out of the house, he is just asking her what steps she has taken to look for a new job. He isn't cheap because he doesn't want to go to work every morning while she is doing nothing and living the same lifestyle as he is. He didn't sign up to be her endless financial support.

sleeperblues...I can see your point, but I work shoulder-to-shoulder with several lawyers, and believe me, an articulate, educated woman really isn't on the top of the list of the criteria a woman must meet in order to date them.

I am from Mexico, and have worked in advertising for many years. Most of the agencies want younger people.

Thanks for any help

" I think that her boyfriend is just trying to set a good example for his daughter,"

I think this father is setting an horrible example for his daughter:
-he's teaching her that you can berate and humiliate your mate in front of somebody else;
- He' teaching her that adult, educated men are not responsible of their own action and that if they cheat on their wives, is not their fault, is somebody' else (the wife, the mistress, the devil ?)
- he' s teaching her that you can invite somebody to live with you, make her discard her life plan, sell her house and then discard her when she's in trouble
-he' s teaching her that you can not expect anything even from your man

This is not a strong work ethic, this is just meanness.

You know, I supported my old boyfriend for a full year when he was unemployed because he left the city he had his shop to come to live with me, he used his savings but I did not ask him for room and board , i could afford it just like I pay dinner for a student friend if I wish to go in a good restaurant and she can not afford it, so I did walk a mile in this Mr.Big Lawyer shoes and I find him a cheaper, lawyer or not.

He seems to me in fact that he wants to have a trophy live-in girlfriend but one paying room and board to boot, he wants to be a kind of room renter with benefits...And she should do babysitting on the side too.

And I can understand very well why Helenar is so unwilling to forgot vacations (after working for decades) and go to work in a fast food restaurant to come back home in the evening to entertain Mr Cheap Lawyer and his rude daughter...

However I too advise to get out of that situation before she is in even worse situation...

I doubt that he MADE her discard her life plan. She lost her job. He didn't have anything to do with it. And he is not discarding her. He is asking her to get a job. He hasn't even threatened to discard her. Yes, he should discuss it with her in private. But he probably wants his daughter to see that it is unacceptable for any adult who is capable of pitching in and taking care of themselves not to do it. He is teaching her to make her own way in life. From what helenar has said, it doesn't seem to me that he refuses to help her out. What he does refuse to do is to do it all for her. He wants her to contribute.

I am not dismissing his part in the adultery. NOT AT ALL. In that sense he is not setting a good example. Please don't misunderstand me. It is not all on helenar's shoulder's, not even mostly. But she did have some part in it. She did make a choice to run around with a married man. Both set a bad example when it comes to marriage.

Was your boyfriend working toward something else while you supported him, or did he think that you should support him because you could afford it. I get the impression that helenar's boyfriend thinks that she isn't really looking for anything new. I think that he believes she doesn't want to get a new job, and I doubt that he is asking her to go flip burgers. He probably just wants to see that she is on the path to doing something. It sucks that he hasn't coveyed that in a more positive way, but it doesn't make him a monster, and I don't necessiarly think she should leave him, just that she should be cautious about his tenancy to cheat.

If I were unemployed and living off of my savings, I think no matter what age I happen to be, I would be more interested in my future and getting ahead then I would in going on vacation and having a good time.

I don't see why you think that just because they are boyfriend/girlfriend, he should be obligated to take care of her financially indeffinately.

"please let it go of the idea that marriage can be wrecked by people outside the married couple: nobody's can break a marriage if one of the two persons united in marriage is not already willing to break his/her vows."

I disagree with this statement. Though it may certainly take two people to cheat,it only takes one to tempt un-nessacarily.
Many men try very hard to resist,but sometimes when someone keeps boosting your ego and tempting you they give in. The person tempting knows they are about to break up a marriage and doesnt care. That is the difference.
If you are on a diet and someone keeps sticking pizza in your face,there is only so much will power one can have before giving in.
just something to think about when defending homewreckers.

(and no,helenar,that was not directed toward you.I have my own issues right now regarding an ex girlfriend trying to tempt my husband,so i have strong feelings about it)

I've got to agree with CoolMama on this -- Single people shouldn't knowingly date married people. Whether the marriage is "dead" or not. It's a very simple rule with very, very few exceptions.

"and dont see why I have to work "
That's the line that gets me. If you don't think you should have to work, (since you could earn so little?) how hard are you really going to look for a job? Your posts seem to indicate that you feel entitled to your BF's financial support simply because he does make a good living. "BF makes plenty, much more than i could if i get job."

"Pays no alimony or CS"
And yet you seem to resent every nickel he does spend on his DD and Ex. Yes, he bought her a nice house. I'm assuming she had one when they were married too. (The one you're living in, maybe?) It's not like she came out ahead, now is it?

This whole situation just goes against everything I most believe in. The only way to make it even worse would be to fake a pregnancy to trap him, then insist he choose between you and his daughter...

"I disagree with this statement. Though it may certainly take two people to cheat,it only takes one to tempt un-nessacarily.
Many men try very hard to resist,but sometimes when someone keeps boosting your ego and tempting you they give in. The person tempting knows they are about to break up a marriage and doesnt care. That is the difference.
If you are on a diet and someone keeps sticking pizza in your face,there is only so much will power one can have before giving in.
just something to think about when defending homewreckers."

Come on, my husband is a university professor and see everyday hundreds of young, willing (he's really attractive and has tenure) nubile young woman and if he was to come home to 46 year old, pregnant and nauseous poor me claiming that he committed adultery because he was so tempted he could not resist, "it is like when you are on a diet (diet = marriage?) and they offer you pizza" i would kick him out myself !

Please we are talking of grown up men, people who would never buy a car or a gadget by impulse and claim to be subverted by somebody else to the point of forgetting years and decades of marriage ? Come on !

He's your boyfriend not your husband, he doesn't have to support you. He can say or do anything he wants, including kicking you out if you don't do things his way. I would never live with a man in his home. You are at his mercy, here today, gone tomorrow.

"Yes, he should discuss it with her in private. But he probably wants his daughter to see that it is unacceptable for any adult who is capable of pitching in and taking care of themselves not to do it."

Dear Raek,

so this adulterous father is using his live-in girlfriend (she did not commit any adultery, she was not married) as whipping post to teach a moral lesson to his daughter that in turn feels entitled (upon her vast experience of life I suppose) to comment on the life, the job prospects and the career' choices of a grown up woman ?

You know, Helenar's boyfriend is not her mentor, supervisor, moral tutor or anything, if he does not like the situation he can talk with his girlfriend privately and reach an agrement suitable for both or leave her but not criticize her in public or make her submit to the rude and misinformed comments of his daughter..

I don't think is a boyfriend/girlfriend thing, I think is a couple thing: i think that if you make somebody move, leaving her job and selling her house, from another country to come and live with you you can not expect him/her at 50 to be willing to redo it all over again, as he/she was 25. There is a time for everything and 50 is a difficult age to pick up and go.

Insulting your mate (male or female) while he/she is a difficult situation criticizing in public IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE to me nor it is helpful.

"Come on, my husband is a university professor and see everyday hundreds of young, willing (he's really attractive and has tenure) nubile young woman and if he was to come home to 46 year old, pregnant and nauseous poor me claiming that he committed adultery because he was so tempted he could not resist, "it is like when you are on a diet (diet = marriage?) and they offer you pizza" i would kick him out myself !"

My husband is surrounded by hot young women too everyday.Some are even celebrities. He doesnt have affairs with them.
yet,he has an ex sending ego-boosting letters saying how much she LOVES him and how she thinks about him all the time...AND SHE KNOWS HE IS MARRIED!
No,he doesnt give into temptation~but I think it crosses a line that she even tries.that she doesnt respect the fact he is married.
Whether or not your husband did anything with his young students,would you not be really upset to know that they tried with him anyways? Knowing they knew he was married to you and that you were expecting?
I dont think you'd like that,and that is exactly my point.
Some people have absolutely no respect for others marriages. They ARE homewreckers cuz all they think about are themselves...not the wife,not even children who may be involved.
I stand by my feeling.

Adultery has more to do with how the adulterer feels about himself than it does about how he feels about his spouse. People who respect themselves do not commit adultery. Much of the midlife crisis sort of adultery is associated with clinical depression. Raek's analogy was a good one; another analogy would be handing a gun to someone who was suicidal and expecting him not to use it.

c'mon searer...you say "i think that if you make somebody move, leaving her job and selling her house, from another country to come and live with you you can not expect him/her at 50 to be willing to redo it all over again, as he/she was 25"...From helenar's posts, I get the impression that she has lived in the US for quite some time and did not move here for her boyfriend...do you really think he MADE her move into his home? She has said no such thing. She has indicated that she lost her job AFTER she moved in with him, not due to a choice in moving/relocation. I don't belive that is the case. Helenar, please correct me if I am wrong.

you also say ", Helenar's boyfriend is not her mentor, supervisor, moral tutor or anything"...he is also not her daddy or her caretaker. It is her responsibility to take care of herself. Not his.

It occurs to me that you are reading a whole lot into it that helenar has not said at all. Besides, how can you MAKE a person sell their home and leave their job. Helenar says, and I quote "My problem is that when I met BF, I was working. Have lost job. Hard to find antoher, and dont see why I have to work -- BF makes plenty, much more than i could if i get job". To me this means that she lost her job after she CHOSE to move in with BF and that she has no ambition to find another.

Just so you know, the definition of adultery is voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse and the bible defines adultery as the violation of the marriage bed. This means that both the married person and the person they are cheating with are adulterers.

I never said critisizing in public is helpful, but it is also not helpful to have somebody in your home that should be working, but is refusing to. I doubt that you would think it were ok if he had an adult child following the same path...why is it ok if his adult girlfriend is, esspecially if he is not ok with it?

"Adultery has more to do with how the adulterer feels about himself than it does about how he feels about his spouse." That's right theotherside.that is why I said homewreckers who use ego-boosting on men often are capable of pulling them away from their wives.
They feel bad about themselves,then comes along some woman who pumps their head all up and suddenly they are Donjuan. They start thinking they can get more then what they already have.
Searer is naive to think ego-massaging doesnt work on men to lure them into cheating.
My point is,of course men can say no.But do they (and us as wives) really need these women adding temptation? Are they not to be held responsible for having a part in stealing away(or at the very least,attempting to steal away) the man's affections?
Anyone who says homewreckers dont exsist hasnt come face to face with one yet. Sorry,ladies,but they are out there.

Just about any B movie depicts the seduction in which some women use to get their way. Some men just dont have the will to say no.
And I apologize for this rant is waaay off topic.

"Adultery has more to do with how the adulterer feels about himself than it does about how he feels about his spouse." That's right theotherside.that is why I said homewreckers who use ego-boosting on men often are capable of pulling them away from their wives.
They feel bad about themselves,then comes along some woman who pumps their head all up and suddenly they are Donjuan. They start thinking they can get more then what they already have.
Searer is naive to think ego-massaging doesnt work on men to lure them into cheating.
My point is,of course men can say no.But do they (and us as wives) really need these women adding temptation? Are they not to be held responsible for having a part in stealing away(or at the very least,attempting to steal away) the man's affections?
Anyone who says homewreckers dont exsist hasnt come face to face with one yet. Sorry,ladies,but they are out there."

Nobody' s can steal anybody's affection if that anybody is not willing to let him/her steal them.

I think that finding excuses like low self esteem or need of ego-boosting for cheaters is just not dealing with the fact that ego-massaging does not work on men in love with their wives just like marital counseling won't work on spouses in love with somebody else that their spouse.

If a man (or a woman) is in love or in lust with that particular woman (or man) no one else will do, if he/she is not, no amount of ego-massaging will succeed.

I believe grown-up people are responsible of their own actions, i do not believe in irrestible temptations as there is always the moment you understand you are crossing an invisible line and you can choose to go over it or step back.

I will tell you a story: many years ago, I had just met my husband, we had dates but were not engaged but I was already in love with him, he was out of the city and I decided to go visiting a new private gallery by myself. There I met a REALLY gorgeous guy (now my husband is very attractive but here we are talking movie-attractive) that is also the first classical ballet dancer of the opera theatre of the city I live, so atletic and virile and graceful to boot, and we start talking and is also well articulated, well read and very very seductive (in fact a kind of Don Juan) , saying all the right things...and he invited me for dinner..at his house (in a very nice place in the city. So we are talking about HUGE temptation and I was free, not married or engaged.
I was delighted and my ego was plenty massaged but I did not go because I was already in love with the man that is now, many many years later my husband and I just could not imagine to go to bed with somebody else.

Men can say no and thinking that those temptresses are even in part responsible to stealing away our men's affections is thinking that these women should show more responsability toward our marriages than our husbands !

Our husbands said the marriage vows and THEY are responsible for them, not somebody else...

Saying that grown up men can not resist temptations so nobody's should give them occasion to stray is like to say that if I go out and max my credit card the responsability is of all that people dressing shopwindows, selling nice clothes and cars and putting all their irresistible shoes toward my way...

Let's start to treat men as grown up and to expect grown up behaviour from them..

Ladies, do you wanna take this outside?

Seriously. Is there anyone here who doesn't believe that BOTH parties are to blame? -- the 'other woman' for participating, and the 'married man' for deciding to stray? Trying to decide who is MORE to blame is silly and pointless.

I think that there are a lot of themes on this thread.

No matter whose fault the adultery is, I think we have to think about the effect on the child, who did not ask for a divorce. I think both sides of the question (fault of OW or not) have points, but I think a woman who would have an affiar wiht a married man with a child is showing she does not care about the child -- and that is was is difficult for stepchildren to deal with it -- as someone said, they may not understand all the nuances of a marriage, but they understand adultery. That is what makes the relationship start off on the wrong foot.

I am divorced, and I cant imagine my going out with a married man with a child.

But I am willing to listen to others views.

sweeby, to answer your question...It seems to me that searer thinks that the other woman is completley blameless.

The problem is that, on this thread and others, it seems to be problems between SD and SM. DH may be just as guilty, but that doesnt make SM any less blameless. Having SD mad at both isnt going to help anyone.

LOL sweeby about stepping outside...that really tickled me.

Searer,I'm in no way saying men shouldnt be held responsible. I'am just saying that it takes a real ignorant person to not respect the fact someone is married and to back off. There is so much lack of respect today for marriage that it is sad.I think it shows less morals of someone to want to be with a married man~Exspecially if kids are involved as KKNY said. To not care about another woman's feelings is one thing,but to purposely go after a man knowing he is married AND has kids is COLDHEARTED and morally wrong.
With so many single people out there,I just think the right thing to do is walk away when you find out someone is married.
I personally would NEVER go for a married guy,even a guy with a girlfriend. I think if all women felt this way,there would be alot less heartache and women might be able to appreciate each other more.

"I'm in no way saying men shouldnt be held responsible. I'am just saying that it takes a real ignorant person to not respect the fact someone is married and to back off. There is so much lack of respect today for marriage that it is sad.I think it shows less morals of someone to want to be with a married man~Exspecially if kids are involved as KKNY said. To not care about another woman's feelings is one thing,but to purposely go after a man knowing he is married AND has kids is COLDHEARTED and morally wrong. "

Above all marriage should be respected by married people, singles do not have any obbligation THEY ARE NOT MARRIED TO ANYBODY.

I am not interested in anybody's else morals nor I should, I am interested in mine and my husband's, we are responsible for working to our marriage, keeping our relationship stable and for being true to each other. Nobody else is, nor in-laws, nor our children (their responsability is grow u as responsible people, nor keep the familly intact or judge the morals of adult people), nor our friends, nor anybody else attractive or egomassaging we can meet in the course of our life.

I was cheated upon in by my first "serious" boyfriend, we were and lived together for 7 years and grown up his daughter from her 7 to 14 years (12 years later we still love each other and she says I am her real mommy) and while I left him when I discovered it I did have only pity for the other woman: if he was so fickle with a person (me) that had shared so many wonderful and important moments with him, what kind of relationship could he have witth her, just met at a party ? and in fact in 6 months time she was heartbroken (i live on a island so we know each other).

I agree that single people should avoid dating married people (and I always did) but to avoid heartache, not because they are responsible for other people's marriages.

" singles do not have any obbligation "

I think as responsible adults, we ALL have an obligation to be decent people, to uphold the values our society agrees upon and cherishes, and to do no deliberate harm to others. A single person who knowingly dates a married person is not uholding our society's values and is knowingly hurting the spouse and kids.

It's not an obligation to a specific individual; it's to a civilized society in general.

Sweeby,couldnt agree more.

"I think as responsible adults, we ALL have an obligation to be decent people, to uphold the values our society agrees upon and cherishes, and to do no deliberate harm to others. A single person who knowingly dates a married person is not uholding our society's values and is knowingly hurting the spouse and kids.

It's not an obligation to a specific individual; it's to a civilized society in general."

No i don't think so. While I agree on the value of marriage and of morals for the society, I think that these are deeply personal matters and nobody can judge others on that.

I think that we have an obligation to uphold the laws but morality is a private, personal matter on which ideas differ widely and while you can choose to frequent only people who share you own idea of morality, you have no right to criticize others', if they are not breaking any laws.

Again, I think that married people has the moral obligation of not hurting their spouses and their kids, nor somebody else.

"sweeby, to answer your question...It seems to me that searer thinks that the other woman is completley blameless."

Wow. Looks like you were right about that, Raek.
And I thought I was liberal!

Wow,...

I'm totally flummoxed.

I'd agree with searer if I thought that dating were a blind, totally random act....LOL

Truthfully though, dating is a deliberate, discriminating, pick-and-choose kind of event. It's all about decisions and therefore it is certainly most logical to infer that morality and ethics are not peripheral concerns. We make a conscious decision whom we date. BOTH parties do this and so BOTH are equally responsible for said relationship.

There's plenty of blame to go around....

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you gotta ask-- helenar- who old are you and how old is your BF??